Fallujah siege civilian death toll 271: Iraqi official

[PfcHammer]

Australian Broadcasting Corporation

Last Update: Friday, April 23, 2004. 6:20pm (AEST)

Fallujah siege civilian death toll 271: Iraqi official

A total of 271 Iraqis have been killed and 793 wounded in Fallujah since US marines laid siege to Fallujah on April 5, interim health minister Khodayir Abbas has said.

"Between April 5 until Thursday at 9:00am (local time) according to official health ministry figures, 271 people were killed and 793 wounded," Mr Abbas told AFP, adding that the casualties were "Iraqi martyrs".

During the same period, 305 Iraqis were killed and 1,261 wounded in clashes between Shiite Muslims and troops of the US-led coalition in Baghdad, central and southern Iraq, he said.

"Our sources are credible because they are based on figures given by hospitals, clinics and doctors who have to declare the number of dead and wounded in their establishments," Mr Abbas said.

<whack>

[jmcgowanjm]

1. Wonder when we start strapping kids to the front of humvees

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt must be tried for heinous war crimes
 
Copyright Joe Vialls, 14 April 2004
 
The Lockheed AC-130 'Spectre' is America's mostdeadly
punitive weapon system. At least five times in the last week,
U.S. Marine commanders have summoned Spectres
overhead Fallujah, where each has indiscriminately
pumped more than 4,000 rounds of high explosive ammo
per minute into the defenseless civilian population
below. Vietnam's Mai Lai atrocity was a mere walk in the park
by comparison with this international outrage, which has
left between 600 and 1,100 unarmed civilians dead, and
more than 2,500 seriously injured.

The United States and Britain have decided to adopt the
Pol Pot theory of social engineering -- kill everyone
with academic credentials. And when the irate Iraqis decide
to strike back at this masterpiece of Israeli-style
population control, the U.S. ups the ante on its already-
high atrocity level -- and bombs a totally defenseless town
from the air, no matter who gets killed, and murders all
the males under 45. Repeat: murders all the males under
45. That's what's going on right now, my dear
American compatriots, in the inferno called Fallujah, Iraq.
It ís called genocide. No question about it.

John Kaminski

[Just Me]

2. God, that is atrocious!!!

These people did NOTHING to the Americans prior to this war. They had nothing to do with 9/11, nothing to do with WMDs, proposed NO danger to our national security.

What is happening is simply unforgiveable and unforgettable. What is happening constitutes war crimes.

[KurtNilsen]

5. Is it just me, or did you take that stuff seriously

:hi:

[0007]

10. I take this stuff seriously and you should too Mr. KurtNilsen

By the way where is the link that sez the U.N. suggested Saddam Hussein's Bat’this army will join the coalition?

[KurtNilsen]

11. I do take it very seriously. But, not mr. John Kaminski riddicolous

account. Talk about polemics.

I could unfortunately not answer you on the other thread since it was locked when I got up this morning.

But, partly in your honour I started another thread in GD. I'll go and bump it now, and you'll find the link you are looking for.

BTW, I think the rehabilitation of baathist might help save lifes in Fallujah. At least I hope and pray.

[0007]

13. Link? there is no link to be found, so it look more like propagada

than anything else to me coming from Mr. Kurt ~

[KurtNilsen]

14. Did you go to the thread in GD? I think it is still on the GD's fron page

But, anyways here is the relevant quote from one wire story. And it has been in several. Read what bobthedrummer says. The whole debaathification thing was driven by the nutcase neo-cons and Rumsfeld with his crony Chalabi. Who did you think headed up the debaathification comitte? If you get Chalabi, I'll buy you a virtual beer. I called this a slap in the face to the neocons and Rumsfeld. bobthedrummer called it a shot in the head. BTW, if you can bear it, go to National Review and watch them go nuts about it.

""It is difficult to understand that thousands upon thousands of teachers, university professors, medical doctors and hospital staff, engineers and other professionals who are sorely needed, have been dismissed within the de-Baathification process, and far too many of those cases have yet to be reviewed," Brahimi then said."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040422/wl_mideast...

[0007]

15. Your link doesn't work - nor is there anything about the UN

coming up with this idea when I google. So who in the UN made this suggestion?

[KurtNilsen]

16. hmmm You are right... The link doesn't work anymore.

I took copied it from my browser this morning (Norway time). But, the quote above came from the link. It was the UN envoy Brahimi.

I'll go look for a working link.

[0007]

17. Sure!!

[rinsd]

23. I found a UN envoy Brahimi...

But he works in Afganistan, is it the same guy?

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/qanda/articles/eav110101.shtml

[KurtNilsen]

24. Right. He is now the UN envoy in Iraq and is responsible to

create with the Iraqis the government that is supposed to take charge after June 30th.

He is a Sunni muslim from Algeria. If you follow the situation in Iraq you really should have heard of him.

[maddezmom]

18. looks like it's Bremer not the UN

Coalition spokesman Dan Senor insisted the move was not a departure from policy that bars top former members of the Saddam's Baath party from taking senior government or military positions.


He stressed that the plan had been all along to recruit senior officers after lower-ranked soldiers. All need to be cleared to ensure they were not involved in torture or other crimes the Saddam regime has been accused of.


Senor also pointed out that US-led coalition forces would remain in Iraq (news - web sites) after June 30, "working alongside Iraqi forces as partners to provide security after that date."
~snip~
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040423/pl_afp/iraq_us_baath_army&cid=1521&ncid=1480

[KurtNilsen]

25. You know....This must be an incredible embarrasment for Bremer.

He was sent to replace Garner, and his first thing he started doing was to purge all Bath members out, and sent hundreds of thousands into unemployment.

[KurtNilsen]

19. Alright here is a current link

that includes some of Brahimi's comments.

I watched the interview last week, and he was VERY critical.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040423/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=1473

[maddezmom]

21. Brahimi on de-Baathification from the link

But he conceded that while "de-Baathification is the right policy for Iraq, its implementation however needs to be reformed" and was "sometimes slower ...than was intended."

"It sometimes excludes innocent, capable people who were Baathist in name only from playing a role in reconstructing Iraq," he added.

Eight days ago, visiting special UN envoy Lakhdar Brahimi criticized the manner in which the de-Baathification policy was being implemented.

"It is difficult to understand that thousands upon thousands of teachers, university professors, medical doctors and hospital staff, engineers and other professionals who are sorely needed, have been dismissed within the de-Baathification process, and far too many of those cases have yet to be reviewed," Brahimi then said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don't think he's talking about bring back the military Generals that worked for Saddam, but who knows?

[KurtNilsen]

22. I think the main point of contention is not the generals in the miliraty,

but, rather people to take part in the post June 30th government.

If I remember the Brahimi interview correctly he intends to include former bath party members into the new government. Sadr (The father, not the unruly son)'s party is on the current government council and heavily opposed to it.

But, I agree. Sacking close to half a million people was the most stupid thing to do. It almost makes my cry to see how the stupid neocons are almost screwing everything up due to their zealous ideology.

I'll tell you what should have been done. How stupid is it to all of a sudden introduce hard core capitalism into a place like Iraq. Obviously, incredibly stupid. I mean in reality is so simple. There is so much work to be done there. And millions of unemplyed people. To use a saying from my proffesion: Talk about a strategic fit.

[tinnypriv]

20. Probably not long

Considering the U.S. is following Israel's rules of engagement, and the glorious Tzahal did that exact thing a week or so ago (strapped a kid to a humvee).

[maddezmom]

3. and this morning I read they were digging for bodies in flattened homes

the causality figure is sure to rise. :(

[gottaB]

9. Be *very* sceptical of this report

Earlier wire stories noted that US estimates were much higher.

e.g.

http://www.adn.com/24hour/iraq/story/1309792p-8453135c.html


The *only* point of agreement between Mr. Abbas and the cpa is that the estimates of civilian casualties from Falluja are inflated. However, that does not seem likely.

Other reports confirm Rafie al-Issawi's initial estimates of dead in hospitals and clinics as of April 11th. Furthermore, the number of dead buried in the soccor stadium alone is likely to exceed Abbas's estimate of people killed in Falluja. In other words, this is one man's statement with no confirming voices--except for wingnuts who don't know what they're talking about, or spread lies to boost sales of munitions, because that's what their patrons want. And what is the basis of this man's authority? Does it warrant the headlines it's being given, and are the headlines accurate?

ABC is imo being less than candid.

[cspiguy]

4. Fallujah siege civilian death toll 271: Iraqi liar

and by the way - all of the fascist baathoislamopsychos are civilians. Duh.

[MidwestTransplant]

6. Keep in mind that this guy is a CPA appointed person.

[anarchy1999]

7. 291 dead = LIE

Far more are dead. Many more wounded. Who is this person?

[maddezmom]

8. interim health minister Khodayir Abbas

[Say_What]

28. 600 DEAD 1000 WOUNDED, 60,000 REFUGEES according to Democracry NOW!!

Free Speech Radio has a reporter reporting from Iraq.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/12/1423251

[keithyboy]

12. Mai Lai....all over again.

We just dig ourselves deeper and deeper into the pits of hell.

[Say_What]

29. Same MO--kill all the innocents, just like Vietnam, just like the Nazis.

[lostnfound]

26. In other news, all women and children miraculously recovered..

previous reports of their deaths were premature.

[Say_What]

27. BOGUS NUMBERS

<clips>

Massacre in Fallujah: Over 600 Dead, 1,000 Injured, 60,000 Refugees

The town of Fallujah is under siege and there are reports of a massacre of Iraqis at the hands U.S. troops. The death toll in the town has now topped 600 with over 1,000 injured.

Local hospitals reported the majority of the dead were women, children and the elderly. The U.S. maintains 95 percent of those killed were members of the resistance. This according to the Guardian of London.

More than 60,000 women and children fled the city during a brief ceasefire on Friday but the US blocked any men of military age from leaving. Dozens of bodies have been buried in the city's soccer stadium after US forces blocked roads heading toward the cemetery.

The attack on Fallujah has galvanized major portions of the Iraqi population against the U.S. Middle East analyst and University of Michigan professor Juan Cole writes "There is a danger that the vindictive attitude of the Americans ... will push the whole country to hate them. A hated occupier is powerless even with all the firepower in the world."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/12/1423251