North Korea Admits It has A Major Disaster and Needs Help

[TacticalPeek]

6:08pm (UK)
North Korea Admits It has A Major Disaster
and Needs Help

"PA"

Secretive North Korea finally admitted tonight that several hundred people were
killed and thousands injured when trains carrying explosives and blew up in a
station.

The Stalinist state - the world's most closed society - opened its borders to
international aid but still kept the disaster a secret from its citizens.

"We need the help of the international community. Emergency relief," said Pak
Gil, North Korea's ambassador to the UN.

Foreign aid workers and diplomats are being taken tomorrow to the site near the
Chinese border where the explosion destroyed 1,850 buildings and damaged
another 6,350, said the Red Cross.

more
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2823605

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. Man, what a load of crap...

We need help! WHaaaaaa....N Korea...man, they are like the drunk, abusive uncle of the world.

[Superfly]

2. Doesn't mean we shouldn't help.

I would rather help in N Korea than be involved in Iraq.

[nodehopper]

29. the only problem with helping North Korea

is that the people don't see any of the aid; that was the failure of the Sunshine policy. South Korea gave North Korea tons of money and Kim Jong Il renegged on all of his promises and used the money for himself, rather than using it for food or aid. Help should be delivered there only with conditions that the relief workers can supervise its distribution.

[chenGOD]

4. Ahh the compassion just reeks out of you.

If North Korea is abusive, what the fuck is America? Murderous?

Remember not to judge a country's citizens by it's leader's actions.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. I would be more than happy to help

As long as they broadcast such to their citizens. That would be my one requirement in fact.

[idontwantaname]

22. you think...

just because they were born N.Korean they dont know the lifestyle differences between them and the rest of the world???
what do you tell the beggar on your local street corner?

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. They live in the midst of a national personality cult

What they know about the rest of the world is strictly limited. If they wish aid, some public announcement about it would be required.

[idontwantaname]

27. they do or YOU do?

you think athletes defect for change of scenery?

do you really think just because they dont have our corporate media they cant think for themselves?

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. They have ONLY government media

They might think, but it is discouraged and they can be locked up for doing so.

Do you realy intend to defend the weirdest and most abusive dictatorship on the planet?

[chenGOD]

32. He's not defending the government.

He's defending the fact that North Koreans might actually be able to think for themselves. The reason they want to defect, he is saying, is because they know that there's someting horribly wrong with their country.

By the way, I'd love to help starving Americans out, but you guys gotta do something about that clown you have in office first.

[progressiveBadger]

5. If we are in Iraq because we are the protectors of the world

Then we better have a small army of aid workers in the air right now. THIS is a perfect opportunity to show the world that America is not evil, and it is a perfect opportunity to actually HELP people and not risk killing thousands of innocents in the process.
Watch Shrub blow them off.

[daleo]

17. Plus, get in a bit of spying on the side

If Bush does help, that will be his primary aim. However, some good may come from it anyway, in direct aid and international goodwill.

[Minstrel Boy]

6. Nice. Remind me to say "neener neener" when

the suitcase explodes.

[Mattforclark]

8. North Korea does need help.

Lots of it. It is by far the most screwed up country on the face of the earth.

[damnraddem]

11. Yeah, but the people injured, those whose homes were destroyed, all ...

those affected in one way or another still need help. The issue is not that of liking the government (who knows how its negligence might have contributed to the accident?), it's helping people in dire need.

Receipt of aid might even make the NK government more resentful -- that they needed aid, had to ask for aid, and got aid from those they despise; but many NK people still need the aid.

[Tommy_Douglas]

16. Dictator Regime or no...

People including women and children are suffering in North Korea. The nations of the west would be wise to help ease the suffering of these people if at all possible.

NK has asked for help, and giving them such aid might help improve the situation between NK in the west.

If the people of Iraq were deserving of aid to their suffering at the hands of Saddam. Why not the people of NK? Or do we have to shock and awe them first?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. Yes, indeed....little tiny N. Korea is such a bully...

Excuse me, but who has North Korea attacked in the last fifty years? Do you want to compare North Korea's alleged aggression with that of the United States' aggression over the last fifty years?

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. NK simply bullies, starves and murders its own

So far at least.

Of course, they do keep an enormous military and that forces South Korea to do the same.

[maddezmom]

3. very sad, lots of folks trapped in leveled buildings

:(

[Mattforclark]

7. North Korean concentration camps

North Korea is not a normal place. Crazy things go on there. Propaganda rules literally everything. It's so very terrible.





:nuke:
:scared:

[damnraddem]

12. Concentration camps can also be damaged in explosions.

And propaganda cannot make horrible wounds stop hurting, nor provide shelter for the newly-homeless. Nor will it be much comfort for the bereaved.

[Laughing Mirror]

21. Ever heard of Gitmo?

The United States is not a normal place. Crazy things go on there. Propaganda rules literally everything. It's so very terrible.

[frylock]

23. more satellite imagery

[ParanoidPat]

31. Are these by the same people who gave us the Iraq / WMD photos?

:shrug: Just askin'! :evilgrin:

Can you tell me why I should believe the interpretation of these after having been lied to about the Iraq WMD facility photos?

[Mattforclark]

78. Did you not believe

the claims about Saddam Hussein being a murderous dictator? I don't think that the proposition that North Korea is a Stalinist state is a lie. That doesn't have much to do with whether North Korea has nuclear weapons, or something like that, though.

[NickB79]

36. And this has what to do with providing aid to injured people?

Wouldn't the very fact that N. Korea has concentration camps be all the more incentive for us to help the injured and homeless around the blast site now, seeing as how they've already endured so much?

[Kool Kitty]

39. Exactly.

Can't we just help these people, just because they need help? This may sound dumb, but it's good karma. You get what you give.

[Mattforclark]

82. Yes

Where did I say that we shouldn't help people, just becaues they need help?

[drb]

62. High fives to you, my friend!!

nt

[Tinoire]

75. SMOOCH!

:loveya:

Thank you

[Mattforclark]

77. It is something worth talking about when one talks about North Korea

Yes, of course we should help people who need help. I don't understand why it seems to be assumed that if you post pictures of North Korean concentration camps you must not want to help thousands of North Korean people who were killed/injured/etc in a train explosion.

[NickB79]

85. I just don't see the relevance

What do those concentration camps have to do with this particular train accident? Yes, I fully understand the dire situation in N. Korea. I have read newspaper articles of the draconian system of government, of the brainwashing of the citizens, even of people resorting to cannibalism to survive when droughts or floods destroy crops for the year. I don't assume you don't want to help them, I just don't see where these pictures fit in with this incident.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

9. 1850 buildings destroyed

most of them dwellings, another 6350 buildings damaged, flattened the train station (with reportedly 500 passengers and workers) and a school and only a few hundred people were killed? :eyes:

I'm glad to see the international community coming together to provide aid. Is the US government going to help too?

[Mattforclark]

10. If the Dear Leader says so

then it must be true.........

:(

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. Please give your personal hatred for NK a rest. Thanks in advance.

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. That wasn't hatred for North Korea

Just their psycho fascist dictator.

[Character Assassin]

41. Please give your adulation of NK a rest.

I request that based on the same amount of evidence that justified your comment.

[Snow]

42. Those of you so eager to disparage North Korea and otherwise

loudly display your disdain for the country and its leadership, you should make sure you're aware of where your information is coming from. You might also want to be careful about comments regarding the supposed ignorance of North Korea of other posters. There's several of us here at DU who have considerable knowledge of Korea, including the North.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. So what do YOU claim the conditions are like there?

And how do you address the claims of massive starvations, massive military spending, psycho abuse of power and enormous human rights abuses?

[Snow]

45. Muddle, I knew I could count on you,

and you have more than one good point there. But the question was one of how distorted a picture are we getting? Is it just a matter of Kim being a psychotic incompetent, or are there perhaps things the US has done to screw up the situation? I wasn't claiming the place wasn't a mess, that Kim is competent to run more than the dog pound.

What I'm saying is we keep hearing what a mess the place is and it's that crazy commie Kim's fault from where? And the US had nothing to do with his being isolated, with him and his father being paranoid? There have been US gunships attacking Korea since the reign of King Kojong, fer cryin' out loud. The country was split, as part of the US's hotshit idea after WWII, to barter with USSR. So these guys go north, the 'democracy' guys go south, US puts in a puppet in the south, Syngman Rhee, who starts screaming about how he's going to come north with the US army behind him. Would you be a little worried in Kim Ilsung's shoes? So he comes south before the US can pull its act together & invade him. By his lights it was reasonable. The war ends, Kim figures the USSR, Joe Stalin, & Mao are his only friends in the world & the US hates him, as witness the mob hanging on his southern border, with nukes in south korea pointed at him. (an old friend worked maintenance on the nukes during the late 60's; they were on nike missles).

So, yes, the country figures it's under siege, and it bloody well is! So they set up a military state because they've got WMD's pointed at them, and they close the doors and try to get along on their own as best they can. Well, the USSR collapses, and a little country like North Korea is the least of their worries. So the Kims, father & son, are left trying to hold off the 8th US Army essentially by themselves. What the hell would you do? Can you understand this?

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Our picture comes from many places

Including human rights organizations, not just media. Hell, just read the NK media (they have an English website) and it is laughable. The rhetoric is pure Cold War communist and their claims are as hilarious as any I've seen.

The things the U.S. has done in this situation start by not allowing NK to conquer all of Korea. Gee, they didn't like that.

And, although * made things worse with his statements about the Axis of Evil, the reality is he was right. They export illegal arms and drugs to bring in money to support their thugocracy.

The world has isolated this looney tunes leadership in NK because that is what you do when one of your neighbors is nuts and has a million-man army.

[Snow]

52. Understand, I'm not disagreeing with your points, I'm simply

tring to persuade you that your viewpoint is too narrow. There are good solid reasons the North is the way it is, and it's not entirely the fault of a psycho commie dictator. You say, for example, " U.S. has done in this situation start by not allowing NK to conquer all of Korea". The US's manipulation started long before that, as I'm trying to point out. Perry was in Japan, right next door, there was all the Opium War business in China. And when Japan was running a takeover of Korea up the flagpole, it was Teddy Roosevelt who sent out a communique essentially saying, yeah, that's a dying dynasty & we don't like monarchies anyway; if you want to take over & patch them up go ahead. There's tons of history that westerners aren't aware of that all play into these problems.

I'm familiar with the human rights orgs & the admittedly silly NK press, and you're correct. But what I find frightenening is the demonizing of the country, and the lack of compassion exhibited towards them, the total lack of understanding of why they are in that position. No one paints themselves into a corner like that by choice. They sell drugs & arms because that's all they've got after the fall of USSR to try & support the place. Granted, some of that doubtless funds Kim Jongil's dissipate life style, but truly, how else are they supposed to fend off complete collapse? They were beginning to make some positive progress under clinton, there was hope of rapprochement with the south, with the main concern being the huge cost that unification would place on the area.

But now where do we stand? Look at some of the posts here, even some place as tolerant as DU. There are posters here coming close to some of the statement I saw on the Yahoo message boards, expressing glee over the deaths. Serves that crazy, evil dictator right! That this attitude has become so extreme & so prevalent frightens me - both for Korea and for ourselves.

[Turley]

67. Sure, it's all our fault

You know there is a whole host of former puppets of the Soviet Union which also had U.S. nukes pointed at them for 50 years. Today I can drive safely and happily to most of them, casually show my passport, and have the run of the country. People in the countries of the former Warsaw Pact are enjoying levels of freedom and prosperity they never would have dreamed of 20 years ago.

As far as I can tell there is only one difference between them and N.Korea. That's the existence of a long-term personality cult with Kim on the altar. But if you want maintain it's our fault that N.Korea didn't turn out like the Czech Republic, more power to you. You are, after all, the "Expert".

[Snow]

72. I see a couple of problems with your generalizations.

First, I can think of number of former USSR sats that are not tempting places to visit. Here's a partial list:
Bosnia, Herzegovinia, Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Uzbekhistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgizstan, Kazakstan, Ukraine, Georgia.

Second, you say, "As far as I can tell there is only one difference between them and N.Korea", them being, I assume, the former Warsaw pact countries. That's a singularly uninformed and simplistic statement that ignores completely enormous differences in culture, history, and geography. You could with equal validity argue that Japan has a personality cult with the emperor. If that's the crucial difference, why is Japan like it is instead of like N. Korea?

[Character Assassin]

46. Thanks, I know all about the North, and therefore other's ignorance of it

I'm eager to disparage anything as evil as the leadership and personality cult, and those who dismiss it as somehow, magically, being a creation of Western media bias and misinformation.

You might also want to be careful about comments regarding the supposed ignorance of North Korea of other posters. There's several of us here at DU who have considerable knowledge of Korea, including the North.

Indeed. I suggest you speak with them and get your facts straight.

[Snow]

53. As you doubtless realize,

I am one of the experts, I suspect I have considerably more knowledge of the situation than you do, and I suggest you take a look at my post #52. Beyond that, I don't see much in your post beyond an imputation of ignorance, something I don't really find worth arguing with.

[Character Assassin]

54. I see no evidence of that.

I am one of the experts, I suspect I have considerably more knowledge of the situation than you do, and I suggest you take a look at my post #52.

That is what I am basing my opinion on. You show a peripheral grasp of history, but do nothing to address the very nature of the gov't and it's history since WWII, but you do bring in irrelevancies that lead me to my conculsion.

Beyond that, I don't see much in your post beyond an imputation of ignorance, something I don't really find worth arguing with.

Really?

Perry was in Japan, right next door, there was all the Opium War business in China.

Irrelevant to the current lunatic governing in NK and his continuation of his father's policies.

And when Japan was running a takeover of Korea up the flagpole, it was Teddy Roosevelt who sent out a communique essentially saying, yeah, that's a dying dynasty & we don't like monarchies anyway; if you want to take over & patch them up go ahead.

See above.

But what I find frightenening is the demonizing of the country, and the lack of compassion exhibited towards them, the total lack of understanding of why they are in that position.

It's crystal clear why they are in that position. The country has been a rabid personality cult for two or three generations now, with a 1,000,000 army, no dissent whatsoever and an autocratic whose whim is law.

No one paints themselves into a corner like that by choice.

Incorrect.

They sell drugs & arms because that's all they've got after the fall of USSR to try & support the place. Granted, some of that doubtless funds Kim Jongil's dissipate life style, but truly, how else are they supposed to fend off complete collapse?

'Granted' about his 'dissipate' lifestyle?

I'll look for my experts elsewhere, thanks.

[Snow]

55. I see nothing of any substance in your retort.

to quote:
"Really?"
"Irrelevant"
"See above."
"a rabid personality cult"
"Incorrect."

I'm as unimpressed with you as you are with me, seemingly. But one final thought before we part. Doesn't this remind you, and any readers we might have left, of the demonization of Noriega, of Kkadafi, and of Saddam?

[Turley]

64. But I do

And I'm as unimpressed with your arguments as C.A. is.

Cheers

[chenGOD]

65. The history that Snow cites is very relevant to today's North Korea

http://www.history.navy.mil/books/field/ch1a.htm

Please read the above link and tell me that the history played out there does not bear relevance to the current situation. A history of getting attacked, getting treated as a pawn in negotiations with China and Japan.

The Sino-Japanese war in 1904-05 played large in the splitting of Korea after WW2, and the fact that the US has had nuclear missiles pointed towards the North at various points in time since the Korean war has done nothing to ease the paranoia.

And now seeing how the Americans operate (disarm completely or we'll attack you, and then when it's found that you don't have any weapons, they attack anyways) in Iraq, you think North Korea has no reason to be paranoid? And before you go on about how Kim Jeong Il is a brutal dictator, please keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of Americans are jailed yearly for drug crimes, innocent people have been executed in America (not to the degre that they have been in Norh Korea), and people do get sent to places where they have no rights for no reason (guantanamo bay).

Kim Jeong Il, yes he's surely not a friend of mine, nor would I ever dream of defending him, but the fact is that there is an awful lot of demonization going on when we would be better served by the US negotiating on good terms. That means not breaking the agreements that they make (and yes the Agreed Framework was broken first on the west's side with their failure to complete the LWR's that were promised). How hard would it be to make a promise not to attack North Korea in return for a gradual shut-down of weapons related nuclear activity? Not hard at all, considering that the North were in full compliance with the Agreed Framework until it became clear that the west had no intention of fulfilling their end of the bargain.

Now I'm not gonna say anything negative about you, but I'm willing to bet that Snow has a fair bit more insight into the way Koreans think than you do.

[Mattforclark]

81. Why can't we

"Kim Jeong Il, yes he's surely not a friend of mine, nor would I ever dream of defending him, but the fact is that there is an awful lot of demonization going on when we would be better served by the US negotiating on good terms."

both demonize Kim Jong Il as the demon he is, AND "negotiate on good terms" with North Korea?

[chenGOD]

84. Because when you demonize someone,

You alter the perception of each side, which makes it impossible to negotiate on good terms.

If you've been told by your boss that the other guy is a demon, and that guy you're negotiating with knows that your boss has told you that, how much trust can be established?

People painted up Saddam to be a demon, but I don't think Saddam will have killed as many of "his own people" as BushCo and sanctions will have done by the time this who Iraq fiasco is over.

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. Sometimes the guy you demonize IS a demon

NK is such a time.

[berry]

89. THANK YOU, ChenGOD and Snow!!!

Your reasoned and well-informed posts are MOST welcome!

I too have been disturbed by the willingness of DUers and even some Democratic politicians to use NKorea as the real demon to worry about (while arguing for sanity in our dealings with Iraq). Of course NKorea has problems and presents problems to its neighbors. But they were finally problems that were being faced and dealt with, albeit very cautiously and slowly. NKorea has shown signs of being willing to deal--and Bush, Bolton and the other neo-con hawks have shown nothing but contempt (as in 'how can one negotiate with a liar?'--exactly the same excuse that was used in preparing for invading Iraq).

The US tendency to oversimplify in its dealings with the rest of the world is clearly dangerous--look where it got us in Iraq today. Very few of the people demonizing NKorea will even acknowledge that 1) US policies contributed to NKorea's "paranoia" (in quotes because they really DO have enemies, the US preeminantly); 2) Kim Jong-il is not omnipotent within NKorea--he has factions and power-bases that he has to work with in some way (the military, the party, etc.).

I don't know as much about all this as I should (having lived in SKorea), but I recognize that it is not just that Kim is a "bad" person. NKorea is trapped, I think. And indeed some in NKorea are not ready, even now, to admit it, but others clearly are. It's delicate and difficult, but I do believe that with wise diplomacy (not likely in the US just now), they can be helped to change. I trust the South Korean view of what needs to be done FAR more than I trust the US view (which in any case is almost entirely seen through a military cold-war lens).

It's also good to remember that demonizing the enemy is the first step towards war. Best to stay pragmatic and rational. As soon as the emotion of hatred enters, we start down dangerous paths.

[Snow]

90. Thanks. Appreciate it.

I agree totally, as you have doubtless read, with your concern about demonizing. I also stand in horror of our government's ignorance of history and culture, and lack of understanding of local politics. Another discussion for another time, perhaps, is our government's firm policy against supporting monarchies. A good friend while I was in grad school was an afghan, I think of kazak ethnicity, who was friends with and highly respected the Shah of Afghanistan. To this day he argues that it was a major mistake for the US to refuse to support the Shah's returning to rule after the departure of the USSR.

There have also been arguments brought forth that in the event of Korean reunification, bringing back a monarch as a uniting figurehead would help a lot towards restoring a sense of nationhood. Although I don't think the current crown prince would be acceptable, and since he has no descendants, brothers, sisters, etc left, it would likely have to go to a cadet line for the most appropriate person.

[Mattforclark]

79. I don't like Kim Jong Il

No, I will not give it a rest, just as I wouldn't give it a rest if you told me to stop my "personal hatred" for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or anyone else like that.

[damnraddem]

13. Outside estimates were of something like 3000 killed.

The death toll is likely higher than that.

[Ediacara]

47. figures from later that day indicate 3000+ killed

I am not sure why this article states "a few hundred." I would not be surprised if 3000 is on the low end of things.

:-(

[Robbien]

14. I am also worried about the train line

From several reports, that train line is the one which is used to deliver food and supplies to NK from China. If it is seriously damaged, what effect will it have on NK population?

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. North Korea now says 'hundreds' dead

and thousands injured.

Hundreds of people are now believed to have died in Thursday's rail disaster in North Korea, the country's foreign ministry has told a British diplomat.

The UK government said its ambassador had also been told that thousands were thought to have been injured.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3654189.stm

[teryang]

30. We stopped N.Korea from developing

...its abundant energy source, uranium, by making promises to supply them with alternative sources and food supplies. Then we breached the agreement. As Cheney's threats have made clear it is his intention to bring down this regime and others.

Unfortunately, his tactics involve inflicting untold human misery on millions. Kim or his successor should cut a deal with S.Korea and lay down and let the S. Koreans move in quickly. Then the south can tell us to get the fuck out.

[chenGOD]

34. Well said. eom

[teryang]

38. Gam sa ham ni da!

Awt te yo?

[Snow]

35. Didn't they used to have pretty good hydroelectric resources?

wonder what happened - couldn't afford to maintain/replace parts? And there's that whole story of oil deposits off the east coast. But I confess I didn't know they had uranium deposits.

[teryang]

37. The objective of their nuclear projects

...was to provide needed electricity particularly for irrigation and what limited manufacturing capacity they have. They needed to produce pumps, pipe, and tractors. Their hydroelectric power was and is inadequate to meet their needs.

[Snow]

40. Well, yeah, but - money! -

the south is scared poopless of how much it'll cost. Remember, they watched the reunification of Germany carefully. There's no way south korea on its own can handle the needs the north would have if they had a peaceful reunification; there's got to be a ton of world help. If they're smart (and they are indeed smart) they'll at least wait till the bushies (and Bolton) are gone, then go for world aid of some sort. There's really no one in the area they would trust to help out much, and the north would never even glance at a gift horse from the US. It'll have to be Europe and/or Australia. Maybe South America, dunno if any of them are solid enough to help out.

[chenGOD]

49. This why the Kaesong/Sinuiju project's success is imperative.

From what I can see, the sout isn't looking for re-unification within the next 5 years. They're trying to loosen up North Korea slowly. Inter-Korean trade has been increasing since the 1997 financial crisis. If some North Korean get a taste of what they can do under a more capitalist approach, especially those in power, they'll drop juche like the bad habit it is. One thing to wary of though, of course, is South Korean companies investing in North Korea for the purposes of cheap labour. There are a lot of companies down here lining up to take part in the Kaesong project, I truly hope it is being doen in order to bring about change in North Korea.

Slightly good news, foreign aid increasing for the victims of the train wreck.

http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2004/04/25/200404250002.asp

[Snow]

56. The Sinuiju thing is the freetrade zone with China, right?

what's the link with Kaesong? Kaesong's down near Panmunjon, so they're thinking freetrade zone with south korea? Could you tell me a bit about this, chenGOD, it's a new one on me.

[chenGOD]

63. Sinuiju is the one with China, yes.

However, I'm not sure what's happened to it recently as Yang Bin (the Chinese guy who was to have been the chief adminstrator of the region got arrested for fraud (real estate fraud I think)).

Here are a few links regarding Sinuiju, they are mostly about a year/year and a half old, I think there hasn't been much progress in this region due to the fact that the planned adminstrator got arrested, and the Chinese government is concerned that it's citizens near the region will go there and gamble.

People's Daily report on the basics of the area

North Korea on a Capitalist Path (upi report)

Chosun Ilbo report from Sept 2002

Chosun Ilbo report from January 2003


As for Kaesong well, there is a lot of activity between the two Koreas on this project. This is the reason for railways and roads between the two countries being connected, which of course is another step towards reunification. The main step is of course the monetary aspect, which has the following results: South Korean small-medium businesses get to use cheaper North Korean labour, and the North gets South Korean technology/manufacturing techniques and capital.

Here's a very recent article from the Korea Times about Kaesong:
ASan, KOLAND Permitted to develop Kaesong complex

Otherwise a Google search should provide you with plenty of reading material.

[Skittles]

59. they wouldn't accept from the American government

would they accept from the American people? I'm curious. I just cannot stand people suffering.

[nodehopper]

43. The US did screw up + the Sunshine policy

with Bush ending Clinton's supplies program.

However, last time South Korea tried to participate in a deal with NK, they ended up looking like complete idiots, when Kim pocketed the money and refused to release prisoners, or, really do anything he promised beyond a couple of photo-ops.

[truthisfreedom]

33. we need to do something about NK... i think this presents a good opportun-

ity to establish better relations. it can't hurt. this "iron fist" thing has to stop...

[fujiyama]

48. If outside aid groups

are given complete access and control of the distribution of aid, then of course the US has a moral duty to help the PEOPLE of North Korea.

What I don't get is why some on the far left can't get it in their head that Kim Jong Il is a raving psychopath, that has starved hundreds of thousands (if not atleast a million) of his own citizens, and maintains one of the most isolated and twisted Stalinist states in existence.

While the US has made many mistakes (this administration has done a really shitty job regarding NK), no excuses can be made for Il's lunacy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Actually no we don't

The world has a bunch of starving people in it. We can't and don't try to save them all. Which ones we save is a purely subjective choice. Saving people in a state like NK only perpetuates the tyranny.

[NickB79]

57. Of course

"Saving people in a state like NK only perpetuates the tyranny."

You're so right. We can't save the country's people until they've all starved to death. THEN the tyranny will be over and we can save them, right?

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Not at all

But mandating certain changes as part of any aid is perfectly within our rights.

[Skittles]

60. I guess if they have oil and no real army

that helps republicans make the choice.

[drb]

61. Well, then, why in six kinds of...

...ficky-fick don't we just break our freakin' necks sending them lavish and wonderful amounts of help?

Seriously.

This is a wonderful, perhaps even Devinely Arranged, opportunity for the U.S. to show (for once in our miserable administration's life) that we really do have hearts and souls and actually give a rat's @$$ about people who look different from us!

How would such an effort resonate with the NK administration? How would it affect the people? How would it alter the chances of them nuking LA in the next five years? If you want to be mercenary about it, how much would $50 million dollars in aid save us on the $50 gazillion dollar Star Wars defense program?

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. Good theory

But the reality is most people aren't too favorably inclined toward those who threaten and blackmail you, even when they need help.

[Bridget Burke]

68. "As he died to make men holy...."

Let's watch out for Number One!

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. You should read the whole thread

We can't and don't save everyone. That said, we are always in a situation where we must pick and choose. There are MILLIONS starving and dying of AIDS in Africa. The big difference is they live in nations that have not threatened the U.S. with nuclear fire.

[Bridget Burke]

87. I did.

What did Jesus say about picking & choosing?

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. Jesus is God

I am not. Here in the U.S., we only have so much funding for aid. The same is true elsewhere. No matter what we do, we can't save everybody. That leaves us with choices.

[Snow]

91. We can't save everybody, but the Iraq war spending is sure one

huge chunk of change, isn't it? I remember seeing comparisons of the cost of this war vs. the cost of blanketing Iraq with all the qualified arms inspectors on the planet, checking every square foot of the country. Plan B was quite a lot cheaper.

[maddezmom]

69. Pyongyang blocks deliveries of aid from South Korea

~snip~
The North's hospitals are impoverished and aid workers who visited victims at the nearby Sinuiju provincial hospital described great suffering.

The regional director of the WFP in Asia, Tony Banbury, said he saw children "rolling and moaning in pain" with cuts to their face treated by a rudimentary twine stitching.

"Some of the kids had lost sight in both eyes. Two were laid out on cabinets. Several mothers had climbed into the beds of their wounded children," he told Reuters from Pyongyang.

Journalists do not have good access to North Korea and are often forced to rely on the accounts of UN officials and NGOs to determine what is happening in the country.
~snip~
more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,1203726,00.html

[chenGOD]

71. What you mean to say is:

North Korea has blocked overland aid from South Korea.

From the linked article:
"North Korea told its southern neighbour today that it would not accept any overland deliveries of urgently needed medical aid for the victims of last week's train explosion."---snip---

From this Korea times article:
``A commercial ship named `Trade Fortune' will sail from Inchon Port for the North Korean port of Nampo on Wednesday afternoon. It will take roughly a day for it to get to the North,'' a ministry official said. ----snip----

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. They have more control that way

And I bet most of it never reaches those in need.

[chenGOD]

76. Although you are partly correct on the control thing,

There has actually been some progress made by the UN in recent years in assuring that the aid goes to the people who need it. There has been a decline in recent years in the total of donations, but there has been a marginal improvement in the distribution process (marginal).

The reason for the convoy being denied, I'm sure, is cause the North Korean government is not keen on showing their citizens fat Southerners.

[Snow]

80. Fat southerners, and the other reason

I'm sure if that the South would be tempted too strongly to resist into including some spies.

[maddezmom]

74. yes, I just copied and pasted the headline

:)

[Snow]

83. A little not-so-subtle propaganda

disappointing that it's a UK newspaper pulling that kind of crap.