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Notice to ski resorts: The Army wants its howitzers back

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floda Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 03:19 PM
Original message
Notice to ski resorts: The Army wants its howitzers back
Tuesday April 27, 2004
By MARTIN GRIFFITH
Associated Press Writer
RENO, Nev. (AP) The U.S. military is demanding the return of five howitzers that two Sierra Nevada ski resorts use to prevent avalanches, saying it needs the guns for the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Alpine Meadows and Mammoth Mountain received the artillery pieces on loan from the Army and began using them last year to fire rounds into mountainsides and knock snow loose.

But the ski resorts received word earlier this month that the Army's Tank Automotive and Armaments Command at the Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois needs the howitzers back immediately.

more

http://cbsnewyork.com/national/SkiResorts-Howitzers-aa/resources_news_html

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Something else afoot here
This makes no sense
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Paranoid

Never mind hunting rifles and semi-auto assault stuff, when the
army wants its big guns (anything that can actually hurt a tank,
that's the time to be paranoid.
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Mr. Bush - No
No howitzers budgeted in the 87 billion, huh?
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is a spoof story on a spoof site, right? This can't be a real story?
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Not a spoof. It's true.
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 04:33 PM by w4rma
Inside CBS 2

CBS 2 is the flagship station of the CBS Television Network and is owned and operated by the Viacom Television Stations Group. In addition to CBS 2, VTSG owns and operates CBS television stations in Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore, Miami, San Francisco, Salt Lake City, Denver, Minneapolis, Green Bay, Detroit, Austin, Dallas and Pittsburgh.

The company also owns and operates 18 UPN stations across the country and 1 independent station is Los Angeles.

http://cbsnewyork.com/about/
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. On Yahoo too.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=6&u=/ap/20040427/ap_on_re_us/ski_resorts_howitzers

Army sez: "You can't use those guns to save lives anymore. We need them to kill Iraqis."
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Army tells ski resorts to give artillery back - MSGOP
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Desperation calls
I can't believe that we are so desperate for artillery that we want a few old 105 MM Howitzers. What next Bush*'s old F-104 fighter jet?
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's not need - it's FEAR - imagine a terrorrist org with a few of these?
.
.
.







Expect the collection of any other possible weapons that collectors may have

Our neighbours are living under a new Reichmeister.

More to come . . .
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. These things are ancient...
You're telling me that we don't have any newer toys that the military could be deploying in Iraq, that they are recommissioning these into combat? Okay...
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. The M119 was first fielded ..... in December 1989
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 10:13 PM by happyslug
You are confusing them with the M101A1 of WWII fame (and an weapon still held in reserve by the Marines). Given the "Improvments" the M119 is claimed to have over the M101A1s, the M101A1s may be in Service long after these M119s are long gone (See my post for cites on the M101, M102 and M119 Howitzers)

The M119 was first fielded to the 7th Infantry Division, Ft Ord, CA, in December 1989.
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Thank you for the clarification...
n/t
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peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Must be part of the deal we promised Spain….
Dubya telling the new PM….based on your abbreviated service, we owe you five howitzers…enjoy…




Seriously….I wouldn’t put it pass the twit….
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. Why M119 105mm Howitzers??????
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 06:38 PM by happyslug
In Iraq we are using 155mm (Which is the normal Artillery for Armor Troops). Since the 1960s 105mm Howitzers have been restricted to Light Infantry (Including Marines) and Airborne Infantry for the 155mm gives twice the blast as does a 105mm round.

The 105mm Howitzer is the lightest Howitzer in the US Inventory at the present time (We do have Mortars that are smaller, but with much less range).

In today's army you use the 105mm when you are going into terrain where movement by Armored Vehicles will be restricted. In this I mean Rural terrain, Urban Terrain like the actions in Iraq do not qualify for the 155 Self propelled Howitzer can just stay outside the urban area and drop shells all day long. Thus I do not believe these guns are for Iraq.

When it comes to the US Army they are three areas that the 105mm towed Howitzer would be preferred to the 155 Self Propelled (or even 155 towed) those are Afghanistan (Which if we wanted them the Army would have demanded them 2-3 months ago so they would be ready for the Spring Offensive that is about to get underway), Haiti and Columbia (With Venezuela a possible fourth area, and let not forget Nepal which is about to fall to guerrillas).

All four of these Countries have large Rural area where Guerrillas hold up in rural areas far from areas where you could take any Vehicles let alone an Armored 155mm Howitzer. The 105mm can be hauled by Ship, by Truck or mule, and by Huey size Helicopters (Including the Black hawk that succeeded the Huey in US Service). TO transport the heavier 155 M198 you need a heavier and most costly helicopter than the Black hawk or Huey.

This sounds like someone either wants these Howitzer in one of the above areas OR the US plans to go into one of these area and want adequate artillery Support.

I lean to US intervention or need, for these guns were for other countries usage, the US could have given away older M101A1 or M102 Howitzers (The M102 is actually lighter than the M119 and thus easier to move around, the M101A1 and M119 are about the same Weight but the M101A1 dates from WWII while the M119 is what is being issued since the late 1980s).

When My old National Guard Division was preparing to switch from being an "Infantry" Division to an "Armored" Division, the old M101A1 105mm Howitzers where to retired from our unit but than re-built before being put into storage. Thus we have plenty of M101A1 and M102 Howitzers. Thus I do not see these Guns being needed for use by our allies. If we needed 105mm for out allies we would give them the M101A1 or M102 Howitzers NOT the M119.

That leaves use by US Forces. We are taking about FIVE Guns (A Battery has Six, a Battalion has 18). You should not mix guns in a unit, the firing tables (which are used to make sure the guns hit what you what them to hit) are complete different between the M101A1, M102 and M119 (Mostly do to each having a different length of the Artillery Tubes which changes the velocity of the Round). Thus if you need more guns to fill out a Battery or Battalion you need the same gun that unit is using NOW.

As to the tin foil guys who are reading this, an Artillery piece without the support system (Firing tables, aiming circles, and other mechanism to control the fire of the guns) is almost useless. They are better anti-tank weapons out there and any guerrilla might be better off using any spare artillery rounds you have as improvised mines (Like the Iraqis are doing) than as artillery Rounds in any anti-tank role.

My opinion, this is to fill out some unit that has damaged some of its M119s and need replacements (The only reason that would be would be the lost of M119s somewhere in Afghanistan, probably by accident or maybe enemy action) OR the Army is building up a New Battery and/or Battalion to support some action in Columbia, Haiti, Venezuela, Afghanistan and/or Nepal (I lean to Columbia and or Venezuela for Haiti is small enough that 155mm Howitzer could cover the whole Island from about 3-4 fire support bases thus US Army would use 155mm Howitzers in Haiti).

Information on the M101A1 (Claims US Marines still have 248) Weight 4980 Pounds:
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m101a1.htm

Information on the M119 (Weight 4520 Pounds):
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m119.htm
http://www.army.mil/fact_files_site/m119/index.html

For Information on the M102 (Source say the US Army has purcahsed 1150 of these but many were lost in Vietnam and shipped ot other countries): Weight: 3004 pounds
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m102.htm
http://www.army.mil/fact_files_site/m102/


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Ernesto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. The ski resorts use old recoiless rifles
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 07:04 PM by Ernesto
in my nieghborhood. (Much easier to opperate)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Like this one???
Edited on Tue Apr-27-04 09:39 PM by happyslug
The weight of the complete M-40A1 weapons system is approximately 461 pounds. It has an overall length of 11.2 feet and a maximum range of 8,420 yards....A one-shot hit with the 106mm was imperative, because the back blast from the breech extended in a cone-shaped fan 75 yards deep and 150 yards wide.

http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/stonerhtml/RECOILLESS_RIFLE.htm



Note the comment on the back blast area for the Recoilless rifle, no black blast problem with a conventional artillery like the M101A1 or M119A1.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. See my post above
Good analysis, they are meant for this hemisphere. I know they have thousands of these in storage. why these 5 ???
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Because they are for US TROOPS
NOT Columbian or Haitian troops but for US TROOPS. Are we going into Venezuela???? They will NOT try to stop us (They will NOT waste their resources that way) instead go to urban and rural guerrilla fighting, thus the need for M119 105mm Howitzers.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. ok, so what exactly is the defense dept. doing with...
ALL OF THAT FUCKING MONEY THEY GET?!?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Setting up Web Cites like "Army facts"
Which clearly shows the US Army giving up on a weapon system (The M101A1) still in use in the rest of the World.
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cornfedyank Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. smile folks, it just means more swing votes.
snowed in skiers are a surly bunch.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. so we need those old howitzers back.......
the most powerful military on earth where more is spent than many other nations combined.........ridiculous. They must be paranoid because citizens have them.
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evworldeditor Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Air America on Cheney Accusations and Pentagon Budgets
The talk today on the both the O'Franken Factor and Randi Rhodes Shows was about Dick Cheney's baseless allegations that Kerry is weak on defense because he voted against various defense spending bills. Turns out that when Cheney was Secretary of War, he chided Congress for its pork barrel defense spending bills on weapons systems the Pentagon didn't need or want, the very same systems that Kerry voted against. One example is the C-130. One particular year the Pentagon wanted to buy just one plane, but to keep constituents happy back in Georgia or wherever, certain Senators and/or Congressman upped the order to 25.

From the discussion today, it appears that Congress has to share the blame for buying equipment we don't need at the expense of things like flak jackets, etc.

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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-28-04 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. I think the exact number is...

Our military budget (not including intelligence orgs such as NSA and
CIA) is larger than the defense budgets of the next 5 countries (in
ranking of defense budgets) combined.

The world has reason to fear an imperialist America. And we are
acting more imperialist every damn day.
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LONG-LINER Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. They need these guns????
I just don't understand this one. Five artillery pieces ??? No they don't want them lose. Soon the Civil war cannon in front of your local court house will be gone. Damn I want to keep and arm bears .. :)
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