Miller: Legislatures Should Pick Senators

[ButterflyBlood]

WASHINGTON - Zell Miller, Georgia's maverick Democratic senator, says the nation ought to return to having senators appointed by legislatures rather than elected by voters.

Miller, who is retiring in January, was first appointed to his post in 2000 after the death of Paul Coverdell. He said Wednesday that rescinding the 17th Amendment, which declared that senators should be elected, would increase the power of state governments and reduce the influence of Washington special interests.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&u=/ap/20040428/ap_on_go_co/appointing_senators_1&printer=1

Only the Constitution Party is suggesting stuff this loony. Drop the D Zell, you ain't fooling anyone.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Zell Miller is a monster. He should be HUNG for aiding Bush's....

War Crimes.

Zell Miller is a right wing activist who HATES America!

[tom_paine]

8. Yes, Zell is an American-hating Bushevik

I think his tastes run more towards 1780s France. And the Imperial who's boots he licks regularly are trying to get us there for him.

Over my dead body.

[codegreen]

2. okay, this guy is a f-ing nut.

funny how this follows his buddy Toomey's defeat in the primary

[Just Me]

18. My very first thought,...precisely!!!

Either that or he is definitely on the take.

[livetohike]

It's a good thing he is retiring

because it sounds as if he has lost it. Another step toward taking the government away from the people.

[ender]

3. i agree.

and i also believe that the original method of apportioning House Reps needs to be brought back.

1 rep for every 100,000 people.

yes, i know how many that would be.

[FeebMaster]

4. What's so loony about it?

It's how things were originally.

[ButterflyBlood]

5. and only male white landowners could vote

and slaves were 3/5 of a person.

[FeebMaster]

6. Right.

But what does that have to do with the states appointing their senators and how does it make the practice loony?

[rumguy]

9. you want party bosses and political elites in each state

to decide our future?

[FeebMaster]

11. Where did I say that? (nt)

[ButterflyBlood]

13. no, but that's what this would do

It also would lead to gerrymandering to the point where a Senator could be almost irremovible no matter how hated he was. Legislatures would just gerrymander to appoint Senators who served only their party's interests, not the interests of the people.

[FeebMaster]

29. I don't agree.

First of all, the interests of the people are supposed to be served by their representatives in the House. The Senators are supposed to serve the interests of the states which is why each state gets the same number of Senators.

As for gerrymandering, it's already a potential problem with the House and with state legislatures and would just have to be dealt with in the courts, or however they deal with it now. If anything, I think having the Senators appointed would make it easier to get rid of a Senator that everyone hates. It would likely take fewer votes to get it done.

[rinsd]

30. But that has happened to large degree anyway.

How many competitive races are there in the Senate or House or even State Legislatures?

The concept of the 17th amendment that I agree with is a statesman council concept. It also served to make Senators more bemolden to their states. How I would change it is to make it proporational representation(based on voting taliies) so 3rd parties would at least have some voice in Congress. Right now, the Senate is just the House with fewer members and more power.

"appoint Senators who served only their party's interests, not the interests of the people."

This is an existing situation that I think is a natural outgrowth of parties.

[sofa king]

37. You may not have, but that's why we have the 17th Amendment.

The 17th Amendment was proposed for several reasons, but one of the most important ones was the use of bribery and coersion by political machines in order to force state legislatures to pick pre-chosen candidates.

The few arguments in favor of repealing the 17th center primarily around campaign finance and states' rights. (Remember how the South refused to vote Republican for almost a hundred years after the "War Between the States"? Dollars to dimes that's why our pal Zell Miller is still a Democrat.)

As far as campaign finance goes, well, it costs an average of $150,000 to run for the California Assembly. Is Joe Sixpack going to send $21,000 on an assemblyperson's campaign, as capped by Proposition 34? Hell, no. Would seven corporations drop $21,000 apiece on an assemblyperson if they thought it might influence state and federal government?

Hell, yes.

[tom_paine]

17. Ok, I'll tell you, Feeb

Our nation, at least until the Bloodless Coup of 2000, was evolving to meet the thoughtful and perspicacious George Washington quote:

http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1274

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."
-- George Washington

It is also part of the evolution that gave us not a Republic, but again the contuing evolution begun by Andy Jackson in the 1820s to a Democratic-Republic.

The practice is loony because it turns back the clock to a time when Negroes wer considered 3/5ths of a person, to when people didn't know what caused disease, and other "Monty Python's Sir Bevedere" style of Medeval Wisdom.

To eliminate the 17th Amendment is to push backwards towards our British Monarchist Roots and unacceptable. Once people have tasted freedom, can they go back to slavery.

I don't know the answer, but the Imperial Subjects of Amerika will ultimately show us and right now the progress doesn't look good.

The possibility of Imperial Totalitarian Lying Soviet OIrwellian Tyranny by 2050 is almost certain. By 2020, maybe 50-50.

But the truth is, the infrastructure of Totalitarianism is already in place. Whener the Busheviks feel that the Imperial Subjects of Amerika are ready to go "Full-On Soviet (except for basic economic philosophy, which will remian the Lassiez-Faire Capitalism of Feudal England), they will begin the Final Phase of the Transition.

Given that larger picture, each tiny chipping away at the Liberty and Democracy that has evolved post-WWII (one wonders, given recent events, if Hitler didn't shame our Ruling Class for a short time...but the shame has worn off and now it's time to take back the Toys from the Kids--that us, the Imperial Subjects of Amerika) is bad for us. This danger is doubled when one considers who rules us and how they stole that power and why they lie as frequently as Soviets or Nazis.

I hope that explains my position. You and I share a common belief in the 2nd Amendment. Well, the Busheviks are WHY the Founding Dads put that Amendment in there.

If they weren't envisioning the Busheviks when they wrote it they were envisioning someone or something much like them.

[FeebMaster]

24. It's funny that you bring up the 2nd Amendment

which was also written in a "time when Negroes wer considered 3/5ths of a person, to when people didn't know what caused disease, and other "Monty Python's Sir Bevedere" style of Medeval Wisdom."

"The practice is loony because it turns back the clock to a time when Negroes wer considered 3/5ths of a person, to when people didn't know what caused disease, and other "Monty Python's Sir Bevedere" style of Medeval Wisdom."

Just because the idea is older doesn't make it loony. If having the states appoint senators is loony just because it's an old idea from slave owning times why not toss out the presidency too and the Supreme Court? After all, they were thought up at the same time as having the states appoint senators.


"To eliminate the 17th Amendment is to push backwards towards our British Monarchist Roots and unacceptable."

I don't see how having the states appoint senators pushes us back to British Monarchist Roots.

"Once people have tasted freedom, can they go back to slavery."

Of course they can. You just have to make them believe they're free first.

[Zynx]

26. Appointed Senators are complete tools of the state party machines.

[FeebMaster]

31. And?

[ButterflyBlood]

32. Party Machines vs. the people

who do you want in control?

[FeebMaster]

33. The people have the House of Representatives.

On edit: Also, are the people more likely going to be able to influence the party platform of the state party or the national party?

[ButterflyBlood]

34. thanks to gerrymandering not anymore

n/t

[FeebMaster]

35. It would be less of an issue if the house weren't

frozen at 435 members.

[apsuman]

36. Not saying that I agree with Zell here, but...

I am Not saying that I agree with Zell here, but...

IF you agree that there is too much money spent in Senate elections.

and/or

IF you think there is too much influence by special interests in the senate elections

and/or

IF you think that having the same people elected to the senate every year creates a stale-ocracy of sorts.

THEN doesn't Zell's idea solve the problem?

Look, I live in Kentucky, and if you could get 20 people to drive from your city/county to Frankfort (I live in the Western part of the state) then you can exert REAL pressure on the State Representative to vote a certain way.

Many (most?) states have some type of term limits, even in California, Speaker Willie Brown could only hold the office for so long. Given the turnover in the state houses that is possible EVERY election cycle (far more so than the gerrymandered federal house seats) common people could very well put more pressure on their elected officials to put in a vew senator.

All this is IMHO.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

16. Originally

women couldn't vote and black people were 3/5 of a person too.

[ender]

21. and somehow that doesnt have anything to do with the discussion.

please - indirect elections of senator do make sense in that they reflect the changing dynamic of state elections.

your other examples dont have anything to do with the topic at hand.

[AJ BENDER]

7. Zell Miller is a Facist Fool

And I knew this when I woke up this morning

[bluestateguy]

10. He's out of his mind

And yet we are somehow the elitists that are out of touch with ordinary Americans.

Not even Baby Bush would adopt a position so loony.

[MO_Dem]

12. Well, Zell, it's a little late for whining now

You've been in the Senate for awhile now--why didn't you speak up when you could do something about it? Did those old Washington special interests prevent you from doing what you thought was right? Oh, yeah! I forgot, and just now remember, you don't know right from a hole in the ground.

[fertilizeonarbusto]

14. what a dipsh*t

Can't we just trade him to Rethugs for someone a tad saner, say MacCain or Chaffee?

[ButterflyBlood]

28. That probably will hapen

he's retiring, and the GOP frontrunner and likely winner, Johnny Isakson, is a Republican jerk for the most part, but is at least pro-choice and probably not totally crazy.

[davidinalameda]

40. most of the Repukes are saner

what a yutz

[Zolok]

15. This is a bad idea idea because

state legislators are traditionally the lowest paid "full time" elected representatives...they are by and large unusually vulnerable to special interest monies-they can be bought on the cheap in other words.
Therefore returning to a system of senatorial election by way of state legislators will in fact merely "drop the going price" of a U.S. Senator.
It would also lead to a full scale invasion of big DC money into obscure state legislature races....
It is also a preposterous idea in extremis...clearly Zell needed to see his name in the papers.
It is also a profoundly anti-democratic proposal but that is my personal opinion...


www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[Loonman]

19. Zell the traitor

Whatever, Zell.....

[dolstein]

20. Perhaps the Senate would be less of a millionaires club

if senators were chosen by state legislatures.

Or perhaps the state legislatures would soon become millionaires clubs.

At least it would force the national parties to pay more attention to state legislative races. It would certainly mean that a popular Democrat like Bob Graham couldn't sit idly by while the Republicans took over the state government.

[ButterflyBlood]

22. actually it would become more a millionaire's club

which is exactly why the 17th amendment was put in place. We couldn't have any more Wellstones under this, just more party elites and the establishment all the time. And for a good example, there's a good chance Lisa Murkowski will get the boot this November, but under this system she'd be in there forever thanks to her daddy.

[buff2]

23. I'll be so glad when that idiot is gone

That two faced DINO should have been gone YESTERDAY. What a total evil,asswipe he is. :grr:

[KamaAina]

25. Too bad they didn't pick one after Coverdell died

and wasted the seat on Zell's sorry ass instead.

Oh yes: the phrase "increase the power of state governments", coming from a (white) politician in the South, historically has meant "let us deal with the race issue exactly the way we white folks see fit." But that couldn't possibly be what Zell meant: after all, he's a good Democrat! </sarcasm>

[GainesT1958]

27. While we're at it...

Why don't we have seperate popular votes (AND Electoral vote counts, as well) for president and vice-president? That's the way THAT one was originally set up, too!:eyes:

Gee, I guess if Zell had been president, "...we wouldn't HAVE all these problems we've had all these years!":eyes:


B-)

[SideshowScott]

38. G'BYE Zell! Someone should tell him Dixiecrats are no more..

Why OH Why havent the DNC told Zell to get lost is beyond me..Hes no Democrat but a Dixiecrat that did not have the sence to jump Republican like the rest when the Democratic party took out the trash.
All Zell wants to do is help the Republicans and make the Democratic party look bad. The Democratic party needs to cut him loose.

[RaulGroom]

39. I was just thinking about this this morning

Over my eggs, just in a shooting-the-shit-with-myself kind of way. Strange Zell was actually ready to go public with this plan. Clearly he's lost his marbles; if he ever had any to begin with. What a waste.

[sendero]

41. I sure hope....

... I dont' get that stupid when I get old :)

[LoneStarLiberal]

42. Here's Some Old-Style Southern Democrat For You, Folks

Oh-ho...how profound that a old-style southern Democrat from Georgia wants to PROTECT STATES' RIGHTS!

Senile old douchebag.