U.S. Abuse of Iraqi Prisoners Inflame Arabs

[Tinoire]

U.S. Abuse of Iraqi Prisoners Inflame Arabs
Reuters - 39 minutes ago

<sniP

"They keep asking why we hate them? Why we detest them? Maybe they should look well in the mirror and then they will hate themselves," said Khadija Mousa from Syria. "What I saw is very very humiliating. The Americans are showing their true image."


"The liberators are worse than the dictators. This is the straw that broke the camel's back for America," said Abdel-Bari Atwan on Friday, editor of the Arab newspaper Al Quds Al Arabi.

<snip>

"Abu Ghraib prison was used for torture in Saddam's time. People will ask now what's the difference between Saddam and Bush. Nothing!," added Saudi commentator Dawoud al-Shiryan.

<snip>

The publicity could not have been worse for Muslims with the sexual humiliation depicted in the photos particularly shocking. "That really, really is the worst atrocity," Atwan said. "It affects the honor and pride of Muslim people. It is better to kill them than sexually abuse them."

<snip>


Arab satellite televisions, seen by millions of Arabs and Muslims, began their news bulletins with the pictures, which they said showed the "savagery" of U.S. troops. "The pictures reflect the brutality of occupation and the absence of values and ethics which Americans said they came to Iraq to promote. They have shown the world how much malice and hatred they carry against Arabs," added Ali Mohsen Obadi.

<snip>


"These soldiers are being touted as the saviours of the Iraqi people and America claims to be the moral leader of the world, but they have been caught with their pants down, they have been exposed, the whole world sees them as they really are," said Mahmoud Walid, a 28-year-old Egyptian writer.

<snip>

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&e=1&u=/nm/20040430/wl_nm/iraq_prisoners_arabs_dc

Good going Georgie Boy!

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. There is going to be serious backlash for this...

Anyone sitting on the fence and maybe giving us the benefit of the doubt is now firmly against us.

This is insane. Those pictures created thousands of new willing suicide bombers...it's sick. Part of me almost wishes they would have censored those pictures, because it's going to harm America.

It's such a shitty position right now, because the success of this country is my first priority yet I oppose this war because I think it is making us less secure. I don't like rooting against my country and I'm not, but damnit it's hard for me to figure out where to draw the line these days because I love America and I want it to be a success...it's a really hard time to be an American right now.

[htuttle]

3. It's a really hard time to be an Iraqi right now too

Or an Afghani.
Or a Palestinian.

[KissMyAsscroft]

12. I agree...

I wasn't trying "whine" about my "terrible plight"...I was against this shit from the beginning.

[saigon68]

71. WAR CRIMINAL LYNNDIE ENGLAND "HE'S GETTING HARD"

At the Article 32 Hearing (like a grand jury hearing) Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P under
oath stated

Wisdom said:
SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right
to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the
pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its
ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.
When he returned later, Wisdom testified:
I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I
thought I should just get out of there. I didn’’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick
walking towards me, and he said, ““““Look what these animals do when you leave them
alone for two seconds.”””” I heard PFC England shout out, ““““He’’’’s getting hard"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[KAZ]

9. It's called "kicking the hornets nest".

And the situation is completely beyond repair. Even "quick justice" will not fix this. The tip of the iceberg sentiment will prevail. * has completely poisoned the waters. I dare say that even a Kerry's election won't help.

[saigon68]

11. Good analogy

Kind of like making a large bees nest the honored guest at the Pinata Party.

Some what like the fallout for the LAPD at the Rodney King Pinata Party

[KAZ]

22. Yeah, but I think they planned this party. n/t

n/t

[saigon68]

32. That they did

Something about sowing and then REAPING

[Just Me]

39. Well, I sincerely believe merely removing the Bush regime,...

,...will be very helpful. Will it undo the damage? No. It will take years of effort to re-build what the neocons have destroyed.

[Tinoire]

20. I understand you loud and clear about that wish

but they not only couldn't censor them but they did something even more machiavellic by handling the information they way they did because they are covering up, trying to close the issue now and pretend

- we had a long thorough investigation
- the guilty scape-goats have been apprehended
- we are shocked, shocked

There are so many holes in their story...

Anyway, here's why they can't censor them:

((with thanks to Chookie))

<snip>

The real facts are that there is report after report of US abuses; on the internet, in the back pages of our newspapers, in personal accounts that with a little luck will now make their way to mainstream press. This is not an isolated few – this is business as usual for the US military and their collaborating band of thugs in Iraq. Is it any wonder that bodies of US soldiers who fall into Iraqi hands are mutilated and displayed?

The pictures of US soldiers dishonoring Iraqi detainees came as no surprise to JUS (Jihad Unspun). We have been reporting alleged abuses since shortly after the fall of Baghdad. We received several reports over the past months of US soldiers raping Iraqi woman, only to find these photos posted to US porn sites. While these photos and reports were put down to “loose” Iraqi women (which shows a fundamental understanding of Iraq’s religion and culture) we discovered later that those who were detained, some at Abu Ghraib prison, who refused to provide US officials with intelligence where given a prod to garner “cooperation” by rounding up the female relatives, forcing then into sexual acts that were filmed and then shown to their husbands, fathers and brothers and to the general public through porn sites. Now the CBS 60 Minutes II report legitimizes the incidents we have been reporting all along.

The Arab world is outrage. The Muslim Ummah is outraged. Iraqis are outraged and so are people of conscience everywhere. I pity the next soldiers that fall into Resistance hands. And contrary to its belief – America can be defeated and most likely will be defeated and dangled at the end of its own pathetic rope for all the world to see.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=2811&list=/home.php&

[krkaufman]

2. This reaction was to be expected.

Which is why the military needs to get to the bottom of the matter VERY QUICKLY, and insure that those responsible are brought to justice. (Perhaps with the same vigor as the military's response to the mutilation of the 4 mercenaries.)

*IF* the guilty are brought to justice (or vice versa), at least one measure of difference between the US and Saddam would have been demonstrated, and *maybe* some healing could begin.

[htuttle]

6. Wouldn't hurt, but here's the problem with that

I'd say at this point, the only place on Earth where they don't assume this is standard practice for the US military is inside the US itself.

It's going to take a lot more than just bringing these particular people to justice to regain the world's respect.

It's not a bad start -- but it just can't be the end of it. Even with a trial, many will assume (quite reasonably) that the only reason it they went to trial was that they got their pictures on the news.

[tedzbear]

43. Also, what about the mercenary interrogators?

Are the two private intelligence corporations whose employees instigated this insanity going to even get a slap on the hand by the Pentagon? So far, no. Since these private contractors are not military personal, they can't be prosecuted or Court Marshalled. Will they even get fired? I doubt it.

So much for privatization of the military! It has blown up in Rumsfield's face big time (except in USA media of course). What is even worse, these idiot mercenaries get paid five times what our soldiers get.

I wonder if the UN will censor the USA for this breach of the Geneva Convention? Or will it roll over like it always does and make nice.

Word is these kind of abuses are not uncommon in Iraq and is probably the reason for the rage behind the murder of the 4 mercenaries in Falluja.

[krkaufman]

63. Yes, what of the people behind the abuse

Yeah, I'm concerned that the soldiers caught on film will become the scapegoats. They *do* need to be held accountable, but it doesn't stop there.

As you said, what of the interrogators who've been alleged as the instigators, and what about the senior officers who allowed it all to go on?

If only the low-level soldiers are prosecuted, justice will not have been fairly or fully served.

[Just Me]

4. At this point, I'm gettin' out my popcorn,...

,...and I am going to pick up a six-pack as I watch this drama unfold.

The neocons will NOT be able to recover from this one!!! Nope, nope, nope!!! They are totally screwed.

[KissMyAsscroft]

14. I wish I could have that same attitude..

But this is our country and we have to fight for it.

[Goldmund]

17. Was that sarcastic??

[Just Me]

40. Yes, of course I am being sarcastic,...or satirical.

What I am really waiting for is the total backlash against this administration for egging-on the "tough guy" crap.

[saigon68]

18. They set themselves up for this SHIT

They let the "Interrogator" off the HOOK The ASSHOLES from Fresno wanted to give him a Pour de Merite

What happened was the LT COL Wyatt Earp THUG decided to do his own interrogation of prisoners by first putting dudes head in an empty sand bag and then shooting his 9 mm Beretta off about an inch from the guys ear.

They didn't do squat to the hooligan officer. The Fresnoites were about to glorify this guy as a legitimate SECOND COMING. There were hints at that time that something bigger was being looked at. I wish I could find those posts.

[seemslikeadream]

28. Got some Mercenary pictures for you

They travel in armoured SUVs, ostentatiously carrying powerful weapons - assault rifles, sidearms, grenades - and they shoot and arrest people just as the soldiers do but minus the uniform and legal status. They're paid around $1,000 a day, considerably more than the regular soldiers or police officers which they used to be, work six weeks on and three off with paid flights home at the end of each tour. The advantage for the US is that their deaths and injuries don't show up on the figures for troop casualties. They are the bodyguards.

Jo Wilding said it best in her piece on the incident when four 'contractors' were killed, sparking off the siege of Falluja by US Marines.

"We arrived back just after the incident in Falluja where the contractors were shot, burnt, mutilated and dragged through the streets. The scenes themselves, on satellite TV in a friend's house, were shocking, all the more so because the dead men were described as civilians.

But what if they were soldiers, armed men who signed up for war and were paid to fight it? They were shot dead in an ambush - what was done to their bodies afterwards was distressing no matter what, but if they were soldiers, they were killed in action. The truth of course is that they were somewhere in between, mercenaries from US firm Blackwater Security, given a contract by USAID to protect contractors".



And it's not just the US government engaging the services of these private armies, operating on the very edges of legality in the shadowy world of close protection. Britain's own Foreign and Commonwealth Office employs civilian close protection officers from UK firm Control Risks Group amongst others to look after its staff and secondees deployed to Iraq. Global Risk International, another British private military contractor has had as many as 1,200 of its personnel in Iraq making it effectively the sixth-largest contributor to the Coaliton Forces. Most of its uniformed troops are either Nepalese Gurkhas or demobilised Fijian soldiers.

I must admit, I hadn't given the concpet of being provided with my own close protection team a great deal of thought prior to my arrival in Baghdad, other than pondering on the motivations of someone who felt their life, should it come to it, was worth less than mine. After all, as a last resort, a bodyguard's role is to protect his principal's life with his own. And in the strange reality that is life within the Green Zone, I soon got used to the men who, looking like extras straight from central casting, arrived at my accommodation each morning to escort me through Baghdad to wherever my assignments took me. It was only later, upon my return that I paused to consider the deeper implications - both legal and moral - of governments using hired guns.

With soldiers still having to battle insurgents and defend themselves, the job of protecting everyone else in Iraq - from journalists like myself, engineers and those involevd in the country's reconstruction to government contractors to the US' head of the CPA, L. Paul Bremer - is largely being done by private security companies. It's believed that as many as 30,000 former soldiers, special forces personel, police officers - and anyone else with the right skills - are working for private security firms in Iraq. With Blackwater charging its clients between $1,500 and $2,000 per day for each close protection officer - and even I attracted a team of four, plus two two armoured SUVs for each excursion - it's clearly a lucrative business.




And being effectively inside of a war zone, there is a blurred line between close protection work and combat operations - battling it out alongside, or in support of, regular soldiers as happened in Al Najaf whilst I was in Baghdad. Within hours of that incident, rumour were rife that the defence of the CPA compound in the town had been handled not by regular troops, but by a team of eight CP officers from Blackwater Security. The Washington Post was on to the story pretty quickly.

There exists an uneasy relationship between the various subcultures of close protection officer in Iraq, and I witnessed a diverse range of nationalities and abilities working for different agencies. Senior officials representing the British Governemnt in Iraq such as Sir Jeremy Greenstock or Christopher Segar are protected by the professionals - members of the army's Royal Military Police close protection squads. The rest of the British contingent in Iraq are looked after by amed civillians under contract to private security companies. The British contingent from CRG were for the most part, extremely professional, courteous and low profile. Most were drawn from the various branches of the UK military, with a number of ex- Royal Military Police close protection officers amongst their number. I met at least two who were serving police officers with firearms experience and who had resigned from the police specifically to take up positions in Iraq. They were under no illusions about the longevity of the role, taking the money and flirting with the danger for as long as it was worthwhile.

http://www.20six.co.uk/weblogEntry/x8ww81cjf0fa

[Sequoia]

5. Ugly, ugly, very ugly Americans.

We are in for some deep S@#t. Seriously. This has gone too far and now there's no hope that American prisoners will be treated any better. These troops who did that are sadistical beasts. One whined about how he never saw a copy of the Geneva Convention. Court-martial them all and throw them in prison.

[progressivebydesign]

34. Don't forget what we did to Saddam's sons...

.. I still can't believe a war crime tribunal hasn't been called over that one. We bombed the hell out of Fallujah over similar humiliation of armed contractors...

[TeeYiYi]

55. Excellent point. . . .

re: We bombed the hell out of Fallujah over similar humiliation of armed contractors...

TYY

[SOS]

57. Speaking of hypocrisy

Just try to imagine the reaction if the photos showed American soldiers being raped, tortured, beaten to death, sexually abused and eaten alive by dogs at the hands of Iraqi "insurgents".
That revulsion is now circulating the world and it's very ugly. The anti-American blowback from this will last for decades.

[gottaB]

7. Arab News Editorial

Big Muscles, Little Understanding

With ever-fewer friends and a rising body count, the US military has given up on hearts and minds. Ordinary GIs, frightened and mourning friends and colleagues, have become trigger-happy. The brutality at Abu Gharib prison, filmed by CBS TV cameras is symptomatic of the frustration felt by the military. Yet as a result of these pictures, a top US general and seven senior officers along with 17 soldiers, have been suspended and are under investigation. There is an argument that this demonstrates that even at the moment when the US faces its greatest military humiliation since Vietnam, the basic values on which the US itself is based, of law and decent behavior, are still in place. But the regional opinion of American fair-handedness is so low now that the general view will be that the military authorities are only investigating because of the TV pictures. People will easily believe that this sort of brutal mistreatment of prisoners or suspects is generally approved of and that unless he is caught on camera, a GI can get away with anything.

[leftchick]

25. spot on editorial...

I can not argue with anything printed there.

[fishnfla]

36. well, wait a minute

in fact the brutality of the prison was not "filmed by CBS TV cameras"

That line seems to indicate a major TV network was allowed in the prison to document the events, or at least it could be construed that way on first read, which is inaccurate and could inflame others even more...

[saigon68]

60. This is a common troops attitude toward dark skinned people

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1127572/posts


To: NotchJohnson
this is the reason you should never keep prisoners for more than 24 hrs...do what you need to do to extract necessary info,,,then do the 3 "s" dance..shoot, shovel, shutup.

reverse situation: just how close to the geneva convention would the ragheads adhere in dealing with our POW's??

our guys don't really need to torture them that much..just hang 'em up, bring a great big hawg in..extract a syringe of blood from it, cut the prisoner's genitals off and inject him with the syringe of pig's blood and then "send him to allah". the rest would be singing like canaries.

no!!! that's not cruel..it is expedient. after they tell you what they know or what they think you want to know..do them the same way...pretty soon someone is going to be telling the truth.

50 posted on 04/30/2004 3:48:13 PM PDT by cajun-jack
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies >

[gottaB]

62. ever the realist, saigon68

Based on your experiences, do you believe that the armed services have the capacity to adjust, alter, or suppress the expression of unhelpful attitudes?

[saigon68]

67. Absolutely

Basic training serves this purpose well. I was in the Air Force but my marine friends say Full Metal jacket is about as real as Marine basic is.

[Judi Lynn]

8. Looks as if there aren't enough inflamed Americans, according to CNN poll

Were you upset by pictures that appear to show Iraqi detainees being abused by U.S. troops?

Yes 65% 53732 votes

No 35% 28516 votes
Total: 82248 votes

You can vote now at:
www.cnn.com/wolf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I cannot believe 35% of anything would not revile these photographs.

[gottaB]

15. appear to?

Ninnies or fascists, whatever. We need to pull the plug on loser media.

[Walt Starr]

19. 35% is about what you have to put as

Bush's hardcore supporters.

They wouldn't even have a problem if George W. Bush selected 100 Iraqi children under the age of ten and anally raped them all personally on television in prime time.

[saigon68]

24. Without using KY

They would wear swastikas for the chimp

[0007]

72. Wow!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

46. Sadly, I was thinking exactly that when I read this number. EOM

[54anickel]

37. Sort of a "stupid" question when you think about it.

Was I upset by the pictures that "appear" to show.....

By the pictures - No I think it is good they got out so people could see for themselves what was going on. They certainly weren't getting to rattled over reports of mistreatment.

By the actions depicted in the pictures - Hell Yes!

That may help to explain at least some the 35% No tally.

[Danieljay]

42. interesting..34% is the number of Republicans

that can always be counted on to support the party 100%. Surely there is a compassionate conservative out there somewhere?

[Iceburg]

54. And what's even more frightening is that this gene pool is

multiplying at a faster rate than the other end of the spectrum.

[LiberalFighter]

56. Too bad we don't have a definitive id of those that stated NO

[bobthedrummer]

10. Titan and CACI are two mercenaries that the administration of George W.

Bush aka The War President employed to interrogate Iraqis, some of them released pics of their national security work to porn-sites, these mercenaries are paid for by US citizens through US tax monies, these mercenaries are big political contributors. The Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive war has failed, PNAC has failed, I think the corruption of BFEE is treasonous now.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/resources.aspx?act=contrib

[Joanne98]

23. This is the perfect opportunity to "demonize" the private armies

We have to get rid of them anyway. The troops that did the torture are all ready blaming them. Saying the "mercenaries" encouraged it. Let's not miss our chance. :)

[seemslikeadream]

13. IRAQ: VIOLANTE, GOVERNMENT MUST INTERVENE ON TORTURE OF IRAQIS

IRAQ: VIOLANTE, GOVERNMENT MUST INTERVENE ON TORTURE OF IRAQIS
(AGI) - Rome, Italy, Apr. 30 - "The Italian government has to formally ask the American government for explanations on what happened, the measures taken against those responsible for the torture of Iraqi prisoners," said Quercia party Chamber of Deputies group leader Luciano Violante. "This violence is comparable to that which the Saddam Hussein's regime inflicted on its prisoners and which place Italian soldiers and hostages at risk. The entire situation is shameful and doesn't mesh with civil and democratic life. Freedom of information in the United States has allowed the entire world to hear of these horrors. Now it's up to our country, which has a long history of humanity and civility and which has the third largest amount of soldiers in Iraq after the United States and Britain, to visibly and effectively - said Violante - to guarantee the respect for human rights in Iraq. On these issues, the government must quickly address the proper Chamber of Deputies and Senate in order to obtain decisions from their respective presidents". (AGI)

http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200404301908-1253-RT1-CRO-0-NF11&page=0&id=agionline-eng.oggitalia


Iraq: Torture not isolated -- independent investigations vital
Related documents
Iraq: One year on the human rights situation remains dire
18/03/2004

Press release, 30/04/2004

There is a real crisis of leadership in Iraq -- with double standards and double speak on human rights, Amnesty International said today.

"The latest evidence of torture and ill-treatment emerging from Abu Ghraib prison will exacerbate an already fragile situation. The prison was notorious under Saddam Hussein -- it should not be allowed to become so again. Iraq has lived under the shadow of torture for far too long. The Coalition leadership must send a clear signal that torture will not be tolerated under any circumstances and that the Iraqi people can now live free of such brutal and degrading practices," Amnesty International said.

"There must be a fully independent, impartial and public investigation into all allegations of torture. Nothing less will suffice. If Iraq is to have a sustainable and peaceful future, human rights must be a central component of the way forward. The message must be sent loud and clear that those who abuse human rights will be held accountable.

"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140172004

April 30 2004 at 08:24PM

'The liberators are worse than the dictators'



By Paul Majendie

London - Photos purporting to show American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners drew international condemnation on Friday, with Arabs saying the United States campaign to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis was now a lost cause.

"This is the straw that broke the camel's back for America," said Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the Arab newspaper al Quds al Arabi. "The liberators are worse than the dictators."

"They have not just lost the hearts and minds of Iraqis but all the Third World and the Arab countries," he said.

'The liberators are worse than the dictators'
The CBS News programme 60 Minutes II on Wednesday aired photos taken at the Abu Ghraib prison last year apparently showing US troops abusing Iraqis held at what was once a notorious centre of torture and executions under ousted president Saddam Hussein.

The pictures showed US troops smiling, posing, laughing or giving the thumbs-up sign as naked, male Iraqi prisoners were stacked in a pyramid or positioned to simulate sex acts.

more
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=2813&click_id=2813&art_id=qw1083349440439B262&set_id=6

[maddezmom]

16. the whole world is inflamed

except asskissing bush* supporters.

[saigon68]

38. RePukes are in Ecstasy with the thought of POW's getting Testicles Wired

With 220 Volt electricity

[gottaB]

21. "Inhuman and Savage"

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=9853

[damnraddem]

26. Will we survive Dubya?

We know that many young Americans have racist attitudes, many towards anyone from the Middle East, Arab or not. In the Gulf War, 'rag head' was a common epithet. This is a background against which the military needs to struggle. Troops need training in cultural sensitivity, peace-keeping, nation-building. But from the first, the Bushistas downplayed such training. US troops were sent to Iraq untrained for any mission other than military operations -- which is to say, untrained for large portions of their mission there, whichever of Dubya's shifting missions one might decide are the missions there. This buck deserves to stop with the Commander-in-Cheat.

But the US as a whole will suffer terribly for what Dubya is doing in the world.

[Briar]

27. Not just American soldiers...

The truth is that training a soldier to kill brutalises him or her. Any soldier, in any army. Discipline is supposed to control this, but it frequently fails. Watch out for the Mirror tomorrow - it has a story about British soldiers carrying out similar torture.

This is inevitable in war. If Bush and Bliar went into their needless war in ignorance of the way it corrupts as well as kills, they are criminally negligent. If they knew, then they are criminally complicit in these shocking acts of inhumanity.

[maddezmom]

52. the Brits are involved. too

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=517063

[NeoConsSuck]

29. Even the Brits aren't too happy..

Taken from CNN.COM:

Photos also were splashed across many of Britain's newspapers. "We are losing their hearts and minds" was the headline in the Daily Mail's main editorial comment.

The Daily Mirror added: "When it comes to winning hearts and minds the U.S. Army hasn't got a clue. Many of its actions seem calculated to make enemies of Iraqis and drive them into the arms of extremists. The photos of prisoners being tortured ... are the most unforgivable acts yet."

Abdel Bari Atwan, editor of Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper in London, agreed. "It is absolutely shocking. I think this is the end of the story, the straw that broke the camel's back, for America," he told the UK Press Association.

"People will be extremely angry. ... Sexual abuse is the worst thing in that part of the world. It is shocking to all Muslims. America has lost the battle completely. I believe there will be more attacks."

[progressivebydesign]

35. Well now we have Brittish abuses documented in the media. N/T

[AliceWonderland]

30. The thing that gets me about articles like this

is that they often tend to equate outrage among interviewed Arabs with "Arabs becoming inflamed." It always seems to suggest that "an Arab" is an inherently violent creature, ready to become a killing terrorist machine if the right switch is flipped. Sometimes, it's not the article itself, but the reaction to the article. People rush to point out, oh no we musn't do these things, there will be a backlash now, Americans are not safe now. "Arabs" are an enourmous and diverse group, and there is a great deal of political discussion and disagreement as a part of many "Arab" cultures.

I'm upset about the ill treatment of any prisoners, anywhere. Though I guess I can't summon any shock, since my roots are in the humanitarian community -- there's a reason that community abhors war, and it's because this is what war looks like and this is what that community is expected to clean up. I just wish that the discussion could be framed a little differently. My grandmother came to Canada from Lebanon, and there are certain things characteristic of my Lebanese family... but none of them is "prone to violence and backlash and escalating violence."

It's logical to surmise that violence spirals. War would not be what it is, if this weren't the case. But that's different from somehow equating this with Arab culture, or being an Arab, or living in the Middle East, or being a Muslim, etc.

[gottaB]

45. bbc reports a range of opinions....disgust, outrage, sadness

Arab anger at "savage" Iraq abuse

Even in your most jaded moments, you'd agree with "unethical and inhuman"?--Or at least "unethical"?

The thing is, "unethical" doesn't make for a good headline.

[frankieT]

65. nice post

don't forget about the hornet nest image too ;-)
you have a clear vision,
but the media dialectic is powerful and sometimes you can't control it. they hoped that propaganda and lobotomy will be sufficient to cover their lies. everyone now can see the rotten junta hiding behind the crusade.
just images, but images of hatred and death.
usual business in wars. but not so usual for a liberation war in a distant country from US. soon maybe they'll drop the mask...

[Cocoa]

31. Expect a Tom Friedman column

or a Charles Krauthammer column, telling us how the Arabs are an oversensitive people.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

47. Actually, you're close. David Brooks actually had a column,

either during the invasion's propaganda runup or the war's early days, that essentially anticipated the inevitable discovery of atrocities from our side, and essentially preemptively excused them, saying that this sort of thing will be inevitable and we should try not to make too big a thing of it or let it dampen our resolve to the brutal task at hand etc. I think it's still on the site but in the columns you have to pay money for now. No thanks.:puke:

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.
Ho Chi Minh

[gottaB]

49. Is this the one you mean?

http://www.steinhoefel.de/nytimes_artikel.html

The shooting down of the Chinook helicopter near Fallujah over the weekend was a shock to the body politic. The fact is, we Americans do not like staring into the face of evil. It is in our progressive and optimistic nature to believe that human beings are basically good, or at least rational. When we stare into a cave of horrors, whether it is in Somalia, Beirut or Tikrit, we see a tangled morass we don't understand. Our instinct is to get out as quickly as possible.

It's not that we can't accept casualties. History shows that Americans are willing to make sacrifices. The real doubts come when we see ourselves inflicting them. What will happen to the national mood when the news programs start broadcasting images of the brutal measures our own troops will have to adopt? Inevitably, there will be atrocities that will cause many good-hearted people to defect from the cause. They will be tempted to have us retreat into the paradise of our own innocence.

Somehow, over the next six months, until the Iraqis are capable of their own defense, the Bush administration is going to have to remind us again and again that Iraq is the Battle of Midway in the war on terror, the crucial turning point where either we will crush the terrorists' spirit or they will crush ours.

The president will have to remind us that we live in a fallen world, that we have to take morally hazardous action if we are to defeat the killers who confront us. It is our responsibility to not walk away. It is our responsibility to recognize the dark realities of human nature, while still preserving our idealistic faith in a better Middle East.

[Just Me]

51. Which leaves me to contemplate: who the hell are the real terrorists?

If the position from which one springs is that we live in a fallen world where all human beings are basically bad,...who is terrorizing whom? How can this type of world view inspire the wonders of humanity?

These people completely dismiss the non-violent advances of people like MLK and Ghandi. Why?

Perhaps it has something to do with seeking to empowering themselves rather than seeking to empower humanity.

[gottaB]

61. maybe it's not "original sin" but Heideggerian nihilism

and cryptofascist, terrorist too--under what system does brutality become both necessary and an act of moral liberation? Yes, it's Terror and Virtue postholocaust, or as Brooks' publishers would have it, Butchers in Paradise: The Smell of Carnage, and How to Wash it Off Your Hands.

Meat hunger? Cannibalism? Man, I don't have any idea what drives this kind of stuff. I call it ignorance. It's not ignorance in the ordinary sense, but it's all too common among those who think.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

53. Thanks, that's exactly it. The brouhaha when the first chopper was

shot down. Brooks's smarmy evil comes shining right through the screen, don't it?

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.
Ho Chi Minh

[progressivebydesign]

33. Maybe the fact that Saddam's Guards are now running Fallujah will help.

Can Bush and his pals do ANYTHING right? These abuses are so disgusting. The international outrage is building. And.. now we have word that we have hired Saddam's former thugs to take over military control of Falluja. I thought they were murderous, torturous, rapists??? Now WE are paying their salaries?? How will the people of Falluja feel, knowing that their new oppressor is none other than the henchmen of the dictator we supposedly liberated them from??? We are the biggest fuckups in the world.

[tedzbear]

44. Not really. I don't think Sistani et al. will be too happy with this...

The Shiites will now suspect the USA of purposely giving their old Sunni rulers an unfair advantage in the new Iraq. The USA has betrayed the Iraqi Shiites before and these Baath party generals reinstated in Fallujah will anger them.

Once again, Bush fucks up the long term for a quick fix to a problem of his own making.

:eyes:

[Danieljay]

41. "winning the hearts and minds...there will be more attacks coming"

From an article on CNN website..

The Daily Mirror added: "When it comes to winning hearts and minds the U.S. Army hasn't got a clue. Many of its actions seem calculated to make enemies of Iraqis and drive them into the arms of extremists. The photos of prisoners being tortured ... are the most unforgivable acts yet."

snip

Abdel Bari Atwan, editor of Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper in London, said he agreed.

"It is absolutely shocking. I think this is the end of the story, the straw that broke the camel's back, for America," he told the UK Press Association.

"People will be extremely angry. ... Sexual abuse is the worst thing in that part of the world. It is shocking to all Muslims. America has lost the battle completely. I believe there will be more attacks."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/30/iraq.photos/index.html

[Gin]

48. I pray the Iraqi's don't retaliate in kind..to our soldier and others

being held captive there.

[truthisfreedom]

50. all evidence indicates bushco wants WWIII. there is no other explanation

for this madness. it's all about an explosion in the military industrial complex, raiding and draining the last of the treasury, bankrupting the US, and delivering power to those who control the military and the energy.

[mom cat]

59. You got that one right. Chaos benefits the elites.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

58. Good thing we are sending such a "white Knight" as our

ambassador... I mean, hell these torture things are old hat to a scum like Negroponte.

[democrank]

64. The graphic photos I saw tonight

at Democrats.com made me just about boil over with anger and disgust.I felt particularly saddened by the photos showing sexual abuse of Muslim women who have always seemed to hold modesty in high regard. It must have been horrible for them on so many different levels.

We should have heard loud, angry voices from our leaders today instead of the couple of one-liners designed to say enough to quiet the controversy but not too much so as to tarnish our image.

[Kool Kitty]

66. Yes, they need to be loud and frequent in their

denounciation of this. They need to make the punishment of the troops involved in this public and quick, because if they don't, the consequences will be awful for the troops that are still there. This misadministration better get their asses in gear here, and it needs to be more than one mealy-mouthed soundbite from W.

[saigon68]

68. d

d

[VolcanoJen]

69. I'm lovin' that legacy, neocons!

Thanks! These photos, combined with the unprovoked war, the mockery of the United Nations, the presidency, and what-have-you, have contributed to the bitter reality that American credibility has been irrevocably harmed. For decades to come, the world will doubt us, just when we need them most. Thanks for ruining my country. These regrettable three-and-a-half years will haunt us this nation forever.

I'd say fuck you, but it doesn't even begin to express the way I really feel.

[pinniped]

70. Loser paul bremoran might have to issue more "papers" to shut down...

more news outlets.