Bush's nuclear "football" enters Vatican

[UpInArms]

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=523524§ion=news

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - While George W. Bush and the pope talked peace in the Vatican, a military aide held a bulky black attaché case containing the codes the U.S. president would need in order to launch a nuclear war.

It is known as "the football". It has been all over the world and on Friday it entered the hallowed halls of the Vatican.

It was never very far from the president. While he and the pope were speaking alone in the pontiff's private study, it was in the next room.

And when Bush and the pope delivered speeches and Bush awarded the pope the Presidential Medal of Freedom, it rested on the shiny marble floor between the firm legs of Major Paul Montanus of the U.S. Marine Corps.

<snip>

Newsweek magazine reported in 1991 that Bush senior accidentally left the football behind after attending a Los Angeles tennis match.

The Navy commander who had been holding the bag gathered several Secret Service agents and sped off after the president. They were reunited 15 minutes later, Newsweek said.

...more at link...

[dbt]

1. Two blasphemies here.

That such a horrible instrument of war was in such a holy place. That such a FOOL is allowed to control that instrument.

:freak:
dbt

[prodigal_green]

9. I misunderstood

I thought you meant that the Chimp was the horrible instrument of War. Either way, it works though.

[Frodo]

34. ABSOLUTELY NOT! Let's get it STRAIGHT!

The term is "Sacrilidge"... not "Blashemy".

The "desecration or profanation of something sacred" not "impiously irreverant words"


lol. Carry on. The rest was right on point.

[morgan2]

106. holy place?

maybe switch holy place with the spoils of centuries of oppression and fear mongering.

[Don_G]

2. I Never Thought Of That

"Pope Controls Nuclear Missles" or "Papal WMD's" on Drudge or Newsmax.

I wonder how many lives that will cost.

[dArKeR]

3. This is a GREAT STORY!!!! Why NOT from an America 'Whore' source?

This just makes my weekend. For this story, I'm having a barbacue party!!!!

I'm sending this story to ALL my priest teachers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


A better title: 'Keys to Send the World to Hell visit the Holy City'.
'Keys of Death Welcome in God's Home.' 'Keys of Satan Welcome in God's Home.'

You would think the Pope and the Holy Men would have enough MORALS to NOT allow the keys to MURDER the Earth and all God's Creatioins inside the walls of God's Home!

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. Reuters' American site has the story also

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=5347156

[struggle4progress]

Tell the Pope that the Vatican should be a nuclear-free zone!

[Just Me]

31. Yikes! I dunno. This is too freaky.

Gives me the heebie jeebies, BIG TIME!!!

:scared:

[wtmusic]

4. "You got the Football?" "I thought YOU had it!"

:eyes:

[TahitiNut]

101. It's symbolic of the Catholic perfection of the forward pass ...

... when Notre Dame played West Point. There so many ironies in this it staggers the imagination. :silly:

[MallRat]

5. Why do we still need the "football?"

I mean, who are our missiles pointed at right now, to warrant immediate access to the launch codes?

-MR

[Wright Patman]

6. If 9-11

was any indication, they may be targeted on our own cities.

[Longhorn79]

67. Hey, I worked at Wright Pat

for a couple of years as a research engineer, area B. Learned to fly there, actually, but now I'm in Texas. How's the weather?

[Kool Kitty]

36. That's a very good question.

[nini]

41. Probably the L.A Harbor..

that'll be the next 9-11... I betcha

[ilovenicepeople]

76. I wish you didnt bring up lastnites nightmare

OH THAT GUT FEELING, I sure hope its the chili?:scared:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. Don't want our allies to get too far out of line, do we?...

It's the FratBoy Fuhrer's version of "Bumbling softly while carrying a great big stick with the safety off".

[Kelvin Mace]

7. It figures

Thus, Pope John Paul II has allowed a device of incomparable evil into the Vatican TWICE. I think this pretty much ends the fiction of the Pope as a man of peace. He is just another insane zealot with an agenda.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[Tellurian]

11. No, all it means is the Pope needs better security training for his guards

and throw people out who would bring such offensive things into the Vatican..

I don't believe in blaming the victim-

[Kelvin Mace]

14. John Paul

is not the victim. While he may be able to plead senility at this late date (in which case he should retire), he was quite mentally alert when Reagan wandered in back in '87 (I daresay, much more compos mentis than Reagan).

The Vatican functionaries know what the "football" is and a conscious decision was made not to ban it. This is a tacit endorsement of the device and a repudiation of Christian teaching. For me, coming as it does on the heels of Cardinal Law's being rewarded for covering up for child molesting priests, it is the last straw.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[Bridget Burke]

25. When have you ever had a good opinion....

about any Catholic?

[Kelvin Mace]

28. I was raised Catholic

and come from a familly of Irish Catholics. I've met people I've respected and can even respect those I disagree with if their ethics are consistent.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[Tellurian]

26. Really?

<<"The Vatican functionaries know what the "football" is and a conscious decision was made not to ban it. This is a tacit endorsement of the device and a repudiation of Christian teaching. For me, coming as it does on the heels of Cardinal Law's being rewarded for covering up for child molesting priests, it is the last straw.">>

Could you provide a link to your source.
I'd like to know more.

Thanks-

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Please....

No, I don't have a link proving that the Vatican officials know what the "football" is. I would find any claim of ignorance on their part to be rank up there with belief in the Easter Bunny.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

48. You should really chill.

You are coming off like a jerk. Some things are just that obvious and no links are required. Maybe YOU dont know that the American Pres. has carried such a divice for decades but you are in a slime minority a I assure you and I am positive the security for the pope is better read on the subject than you or I for that matter.

[Tellurian]

49. My conversation is not with you, Sterling-

let's just leave it at that..k?

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rabrrrrrr]

54. Dude, I don't think there's any chance at all that the Vatican security

don't know what he's carrying around with him. It's not like it's top secret, and the Vatican guard are pretty good. And are also armed with guns - uzis, I believe, though I could be wrong on that. If not an uzi, they are uzi-like.

While I can applaud the Pope for his hospitality, and not putting requirements on what people can bring with them, I am quite disappointed with him. Disappointed because, a) I bet every non-national-leader goes through a security check to make sure they have no weapons, and b) because it's utterly honest the only reason our Assmunch In Chief is visiting the Pope (whom, remember, our Assmunch in Chief believes is satanic) is for photo opps and to curry Catholic votes in the US. He doesn't give a goddamn about the Pope, what the Pope has to say, or what the Pope thinks. Assmunch in Chief has made that abundantly clear. So, given that situation, the Pope - as the Voice of God (not that I believe that, but he believes it) - should have been honest and said, "I know this visit is bullshit, and so, if you want to curry votes from peoplein American that you don't think have a chance to go to Heaven, then you'll do it without your *@(&$%#*^$ nuclear weapon device, you little shit."

And hopefully he'll say "You little shit" like Jon Gielgud said it to Dudley Moore in Arthur.

But even without all the above, the Pope - as the Voice of God (with the caveat I used before) - should have ADAMANTLY refused to allow that device in the Vatican. ANYWHERE in the Vatican. And I say that as a Christian, that the Pope, of all people, should have made a choice for peace and not allowed the key to world destruction into what, at least the Pope and Catholics believe, is THE holy city.

[Tellurian]

66. Rabrrrrr... This Pope, I believe is a good man..

I believe he is hanging on for dear life because he knows what is in store for us when he is gone. There are those surrounding him who would manipulate his thoughts and actions. It is the next Pope we are to be concerned about, not this one.

Here is food for thought looking at long last a bigger picture rather than getting caught up in the pettiness of minutia. I am not taking a stand to say my opinion is infallible. Alls I'm saying is have you considered the possibilities raised and discussed at length by a reputable source not considered a crackpot in this book?

http://www.papalreich.com/

[Rabrrrrrr]

70. Did I say anything about "we should be worried about this Pope"?

Did I say anything that would lead one to think I didn't think this Pope was "a good man"?

No.

So what's your point with the link to this book?

I think you might be looking too far into paranoia with that book link - I read the first two chapters, the press release, and the author's statement. Sounds rather implausible to me, though the author could be quite right about the next phase being about "religion".

But, anyway, your post didn't address any of the issues in this part of the sub-thread.

[Kelvin Mace]

58. Excuse me,

I don't know why you have decided to be rude and insulting on this matter, as I certainly have not been rude to you. My thinking is not delusional, since security at the Vatican is tight (I've been there, have you?) and the existance of the "football" is not a state secret.

Neither George Bush nor any other American President tells the Pope what to do. Protocol clearly had Bush kneeling to the Holy See, so I think that sets the tone as to who's who in the diplomatic pecking order.

Are you defending Cardinal Law and the Church? Are you Catholic? Would you be so kind as to address the specific point(s) you disagree with and spare me the ad hominen attacks?

David

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Longhorn79]

69. Ha! that was funny

Only problem was you were wrong...

[Rabrrrrrr]

72. Seemed pretty rude to me

And seems like we have a general consensous that it's totally fair to assume that Vatican guards know the president is coming with the "football" without having to find some source or site that "proves" that the guards know the president has a "football".

I really have to say that, at least in this subthread, you've been the rude one for unnecessarily challenging the claim that the guards know about the president's "football".

[Tellurian]

79. Here is the post that was the impetus to the discussion...

plan9_pub said:

<<Thus, Pope John Paul II has allowed a device of incomparable evil into the Vatican TWICE. I think this pretty much ends the fiction of the Pope as a man of peace. He is just another insane zealot with an agenda.>>

And here is why I posted "So, you're really just blathering whatever comes into your fool head.." because apparently all of you assumed too much about what is contained in the black bag (football)

In reality:

"Contrary to popular belief, the "Football" does not contain the proverbial "go-code" or the unlock codes needed by the launch crews to fire their ground, sea, and airborne weapons. Those authorizing and enabling codes, created and maintained by the NSA, always remain in military custody at the national military command posts in the Pentagon, and alternate sites around the country."

and the link:

http://www.brook.edu/fp/projects/nucwcost/box3_4.htm

AND:

Especially today in breaking news reports stating Bush's state of mind.I am doubtful the "real" football ever entered the Vatican at all. Customarily, the "real" football is worn by military personnel with an attached leather strap. The black bag seen today did not have the strap. The absence of the black strap was questioned by someone in attendance today..

here:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=5347156

"Sometimes a leather strap links "the football" from the military aide's wrist to the handle of the soft leather case.But there was no strap visible on Friday."

I find demonizing the Pope for something that has never happened is fool hardy and ridiculous..

[Rabrrrrrr]

82. We'll, I'll be

I always thought the football had either the "go codes" or some kind of electronic verification thingy for giving final approval for initiating a launch.

Learn something every day. Just a bloody book with a plan, but no codes or anything else, eh? Well, then, take the thing to the Vatican. Not at all what I thought it was.

Of course, you could have mentioned that in your other responses, instead of acting like you, too, thought it had the "go codes", but perhaps you didn't know that when you started posting?

[Tellurian]

83. No, my reasoning asking for a link from plan9 with more info

was looking for some sort of foundation supporting the vituperatous vitriol being spread here concerning the Pope by plan9..

When none was forthcoming, out of hand, I designated the attacks for what they were, just a batch of BS..pulled out of thin air to satisfy an ego.

I've known about the football all along but never gave it much thought as a mechanism to unleash a nuclear device. But after reading this thread in it's entirety where post after post were nothing but someone's unsubstantiated opinion tearing the Pope limb from limb, my curiosity got the better of me.

It just didn't fit, not the Pope who has championed humanity all his life. After reading his biography and the deep sense of humanity ingrained in his philosophy, rather keeping silent or worse buy into the frenzied attacks I did the research and posted the findings.. thats all.

[Kelvin Mace]

86. Ahhh, now the truth is revealed

It just didn't fit, not the Pope who has championed humanity all his life. After reading his biography and the deep sense of humanity ingrained in his philosophy, rather keeping silent or worse buy into the frenzied attacks I did the research and posted the findings.. thats all.

You're pissed because you think the Pope is a saint.

He isn't. Never was. Just a power hungry zealot.

He has a distinctly right-wing agenda:

1) Anti-birth control
2) Anti-female
3) Anti-gay
4) Anti-abortion

I don't judge people by what books claim of their character, I judge them by their actions.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

87. Hmmm... I guess it depends on your source

It follows the President where ever he goes and is never more that a few steps from his side. It is carried by a military officer who must undergo the nation's most rigorous security background check - the "Yankee White". It contains a secure SATCOM radio and handset, the nuclear launch codes known as the "Gold Codes" and the President's Decision Book - the nuclear playbook that the President would rely on if he would ever have to decide to use nuclear weapons. Its real name is unknown but it is popularly known as "the football".
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/nuclear-football.htm

The Football is a secure briefcase that contains the information needed to enable the President to authorize and initiate a nuclear weapons strike. It follows the President where ever he goes and is never more that a few steps from his side. A military officer carries the Football and undergoes the nation's most rigorous security background check, "Yankee White". The contents of the Football are believed to include:

The "black book" of nuclear weapons launch options as formulated in the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP). The current SIOP is SIOP 04.

The Emergency Action Message (EAM) or "go codes" needed to authorize use of nuclear weapons;

Federation of American Scientists
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/nuclear-football.htm


Also, you imply the absence of the strap means that the "football" in questions was not the genuine article, but you omitted a later sentence:

Asked on Friday why the leather strap was not being used, Montanus told Reuters with a sly smile: "We have various ways of keeping track of it."

The strap is used to keep track of the briefcase and obviously they now have a tracking device. This interpretation is reinforced by the OTHER SENTENCE YOU OMITTED:

But there was no strap visible on Friday. Apparently Montanus felt safe enough in the Vatican, under the frescoes of Renaissance masters.

I find being an apologist for a Pope who spits on the teachings of Christianity beneath contempt.

[Kelvin Mace]

92. You have been rude

At no point did I attack you personally. I disputed your arguments and kept the debate civil.

You, on the other hand, have been full of insults, calling me delusional and pompous.

This is rude AND a violation of posting rules.

What seems to stick in your craw is anyone insulting John Paul who you hold, for some reason, in high esteem.

With the exception of the invasion of Iraq and capitol punishment, John Paul is a reactionary who has done everything possible to undermine Vatican II and usher the Catholic Church back into the dark ages.

I see nothing to commend him for.

[LibLabUK]

15. The Pope would have had no choice in it...

The Pope would have had no say in whether the Football accompanies the pResident. Wherever he goes the football goes too.

It's like trying to prevent the USSS from carrying firearms or driving their own vehicles... can't be done.

[Kelvin Mace]

21. I beg to differ

If I am the Pope and the President of the United States wishes to meet with me, we meet under MY terms or we don't meet at all. Bush is there for a photo-op and to curry the Catholic conservative vote, nothing else. For John Paul to see him and allow him to bring into the Vatican a device of ultimate destruction is to endorse Bush and his imperial views and to repudiate the teachings of Christ.

The firearm of a Secret Service agent is not the same thing as device capable of annihilating the planet.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[LibLabUK]

23. Well

"If I am the Pope and the President of the United States wishes to meet with me, we meet under MY terms or we don't meet at all."

You know that that is not the way it works. POTUS (whoever it is) always gets his own way.

[Kelvin Mace]

24. Don't think so

You know that that is not the way it works. POTUS (whoever it is) always gets his own way.

Says who?

Is Bush going to have his knees broken if he doesn't comply?

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[LibLabUK]

30. Errr... I think we have a break down in communication here...

"Says who? Is Bush going to have his knees broken if he doesn't comply?"

I'm sorry.. I don't understand.

POTUS=President of the United States... so what are you trying to say?

[Kelvin Mace]

39. Pope = The Friggin' Pope

This is not Bush talking to the head of some little "coalition of the willing" head of state. This is the head of the largest Christian denomination in the world.

If the Pope didn't want the "football" in his presence Bush would have to either leave it behind or not meet at the Vatican.

However, for the most part, John Paul is endorsing Bush's views and in so doing, he sold out whatever Christian ethics he may have had.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[nini]

44. "John Paul is endorsing Bush's views "

I guess that's why he scolded him on the Iraqi situation:

"The ailing pontiff complained about recent “deplorable events,” an apparent reference to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops. In the absence of a commitment to shared human values, “neither war nor terrorism will ever be overcome,”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5135067/

[LibLabUK]

51. ""John Paul is endorsing Bush's views ""

Not to mention his well known thoughts on executions in the US. They actually mark executions in the vatican... by turning off the lights (I think).

[Kelvin Mace]

59. Cardinals and Bishops in this country and others

have been denying Communion to "pro-choice" politicians. In some places specifically Dems but not Repubs.

Rome has not admonished these folks to butt out, thus they are tacitly endorsing Bush.

John Paul met with Bush, a person who has supports capitol punishment and is a war criminal. Then he allowed him to bring a device into the Vatican that has one, and only one purpose, the destruction of billions of human beings and he's make no complaint.

In Catholicism, this is known as a "sin of ommission", which is just as deadly to one's soul as any overt act of evil.

By meeting with Bush, John Paul has boosted Bush's standing among conservative Catholics, this is a tacit endorsement of his policies. He also accepted a medal from Bush. Why? Would any truly just and righteous man accept a medal from someone with that much blood on his hands?

Give me a break.

If the Pope was REALLY interested in making his point he would have forbid the "football", forcing Bush to either leave it, or be embarassed when denied an audience with the Pope. John Paul would have also declined the medal and lectured Bush on his duties as a Christian.

Instead, he let the Devil himself in for a photo-op, made a weak protestation about Iraq, then accepted a medal.

[Rabrrrrrr]

73. Good point - hadn't even thought of the sin of accepting the medal

I will say that we can't fault the pope for letting a war criminal and known executioner into the chamber - God's "house" is never, ever, ever to be closed to anyone because of their behavior. There is always room for grace and salvation.

However, as you point out and as I have agreed, God's "house" is no place for the device that can send billions to firey, unecessary, evil deaths.

And it was also wrong for the Pope to accept the medal.

TOtally okay to let the asshole into the Vatican, but the Pope should have done much more than criticize Iraq. He should have dressed that asshole down six ways to Sunday, then told him that he can't accept the medal because, as much as God still loves Shrubbie, the sin and stain associated with the medal is too much.

[Kelvin Mace]

94. I agree completely

All sinners are welcome by God, if one follows the teachings of Christianity. However, the sins themself must be left at the door.

While Christianity also teaches mercy and forgiveness, the price of forgiveness is contrition, something unknown to George W. Bush.

[Rabrrrrrr]

56. No, I wouldn't say he's supporting ShitHead's views - that's dishonest -

but his allowance of the device into the Vatican IS tacit approval of the existence of nuclear weapons. Especially given the Pope's constant disapproval of Chimpy McCokespoon, I don't think we can say this is approval of UmbrellasAreBeyondMe's views.

[impe]

32. Speaking of Knees

Why did Bush go down on one when meeting the pope? This really puts a spin on who's in charge.


Frankly, I wouldn't genuflect to him or the queen.

[LibLabUK]

38. Hmm

"Frankly, I wouldn't genuflect to him or the queen."

You aren't expected to genuflect infront of the queen.

Mind you, I wouldn't imagine that you'd get invited to meet either.

[impe]

104. Oh Gee

what a loss, this was one of the reasons we had the American revolution, no (_._) kisser here.

[Kelvin Mace]

40. Protocol

You are also supposed to kiss his ring, if I recall correctly.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[Rabrrrrrr]

55. Bullshit

This POTUS gets whatever he wants in the US because he's an immature little tantrum throwing piece of shit.

But outside the US, ANYONE can tell him what he can and cannot bring. Yeah, it might mean that POTUS doesn't go, but other countries have that choice.

If the Pope says "No football", then POTUS has to decide whether he visits or not. POTUS can't FORCE his way into the Vatican. (Well, THIS POTUS could because he's an evil shit, cf. "Iraq", but not without repurcussions)

[Kelvin Mace]

60. You see my point precisely...

Bush is not, despite his delusion, God.

[koopie57]

47. I was raised Catholic

six years of sister school and I consider myself a survivor. I understand why some people have a great deal of anger toward the church and I understand why others find great comfort in being Catholic. I say that cuz I don't want to argue about that, but about your view that the Pope meets on his terms. I think that the Pope is showing tolerance, accepting people as they come and the baggage they bring along. Sort of like in Les Miserables when the priest accepts Jean into his home. I find comfort that he rises about pettiness and wordly insecurities.

[Kelvin Mace]

62. I was born and raised Catholic

There are sins which can be overlooked and then there are sins that cannot be overlooked. Jean Valjean was a thief who stole a loaf of bread because he was starving. Bush has the blood of tens of thousands of innocent men, women and children on his hands.

Even Jesus lost his temper when he found the money changers in the temple. How would he have reacted to this vulture dragging a device into His Father's house which is the trigger for literal Armageddon?

[koopie57]

85. It all depends on what you believe

my understanding is that all sins are equal when seen in the eyes of
God, stealing food in Jean Valjeans time was very serious then when food was scarce .. both sides have argueable points of view. My point was that I think the Pope is not afraid of Bush or his football. I think he was more concerned with trying to get past the football, past the hatred and greed and violence. My point was not to argue religion cuz I have never seen anything good or positive come out from argueing about God and religion. A sane discussion, yes, but when someone has strong feelings, all it does is escalate into violence for some reason. I think it might have to do with no one can really prove their side.

[Kelvin Mace]

88. I agree

that arguing about religion often leads to violence.

That all sins can be considered equal was not my point, I was saying that what we FAIL to do can be as sinful as what we DO.

As to the equivalency of sin, I have problems with that. Yes, context is everything. But a man who steals, even in times of famine, because he is starving is in a different class of sinner than a mass murderer like Bush.

Hell, if Bush were Jean Valjean, he would have killed the baker, stolen the bread to eat his fill, then enslaved the baker's family to produce more bread which he would then use to hire thugs to (paying in bread) to protect his new bakery from the hungry, then sold the bread to those with the money to pay at the highest price possible.

The appropriate reaction to Bush and the "football" should have been the same as Jesus' reaction to the money changers in the temple.

Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Now, ol' John Paul is a bit long in the tooth to do this himself, but he has guards for that.

[koopie57]

99. Yes, I finally see your point

and I agree it is valid. And I guess we differ cuz I think that more was accomplished by the Pope overlooking the evilness of Bush and having a chance to speak to Bush and for the Pope to have his say.

And I never did understand when taught that all sins were seen equal in the eyes of the Lord. But I started thinking about it this morning and maybe it is the evilness with which the sin was done, and not the sin itself. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

[Kelvin Mace]

100. I could accept, and would even encourage

Bush being taken in and lectured on his duties as a Christian. But I feel that to try and make such a point with such a device present would be missing the point.

You bring up interesting concerns about sin.

Personally I have a view of sin that states it is impossible to sin without malice. A sin is something that hurts someone, either yourself or someone else. Thus, a lie told to protect someone from unjust harm, is not a sin.
---------------------------------------------------------
Example: Time 1944, there is a knock at the door.

Gestapo officer: "We have a report that you are hiding Jews. Is this true?"

You: "Nope. No Jews here."

A search ensues but the secret panel hiding the Jews is not found.
---------------------------------------------------------
Did you sin by telling a lie?

No, for three reasons.

1) The commandment many will cite involves "bearing false witness" against your neighbor. You have protected you neighbor.

2) While the law says hiding Jews is illegal, the law itself is immoral and complying with it would be a sin, as it would be result the Jews you are hiding being executed.

3) The ten commandments is Old Testament and was superseded in the New Testament by the Golden Rule of "Do unto others..."

So, to sum up my view, "sin" in order to be sin in the classic context that everyone accepts, requires evil intent against someone, or against yourself. You cannot sin without malice. Conversely, anything done with malice is a sin, even if legal or compelled by law.

DISCLAIMER: The view expressed is not endorsed by Mainstream Religion, Inc.(tm). Which is the way I like it.

[burrowowl]

74. Maybe the Swiss Guard were ordered to shoot Bu$h

if he tried to use it. Image capturing the football!

[Mr.Green93]

8. "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! "

[tigereye]

10. that is pretty ironic

[Voltaire99]

12. Bush and the Pontiff are actually quite similar.

Leave aside the distinction that one is an anti-intellectual, the other a formidable mind. Even smarty-pants can be trouble.

Both Bush and John Paul represent worldviews mired in medievalism. Both refute experience in favor of closed systems of received truth. Neither is capable of a single surprising thought. Neither is good for the modern world: they sow misery the globe over. Bush has his bombs; John Paul his beloved fertilized egg cells. Bush hates "bad guys," defined conveniently as anyone standing in the way of imperial corporate conquest. John Paul "loves" gays and lesbians, although his "love" brands them as evil.

So when I see these two dinosaurs seated next to one another - each having a reasonably hard time staying awake in the other's company - it's discouraging to know the species is populated with admirers of both. For here we find two of mankind's great obstructors. Here we find two meddlesome fools. They may deserve each other, but the earth surely does not deserve them.

[jokerman93]

13. yep

I think you nailed it. Too bad the World isn't allowed to have political leaders with trained, enlightened minds, and spirituality without superstition. I just hope civilization can survive this dark age we're in.

[donsu]

16. so true

fantasizers

fighting over the same imaginary god

in the year 2004

[MetaTrope]

17. The President gives the POPE a medal?!

I see something terribly out of balance in Bush's perception of his own place in the Cosmos here.

[jus_the_facts]

18. maybe not.....here's some *tinfoilhat* that could explain it....

www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/vatican_observe_000716.html

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news142.html

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/

...when asked by Woodward how history will view the Iraq War...bush* replied..."History...we won't know...we'll all be DEAD!" :scared: :tinfoilhat: :wow:

edited to fix links...sorry! x(

[Rabrrrrrr]

81. I'm not getting how those links point to something "tinfoil-hatish"

They don't seem to imply anything sinister, other than that the Vatican supports astronomical research, and that a chunk of rock is coming close to earth.

:shrug:

Am I missing an implication here?

Of course, Asshat In Chief's comments about "we'll all be dead" could be taken a number of ways, many of them quite scary....

[jus_the_facts]

84. I've read some on other websites about these incomin' NEO's....

...lots of subversive plots involving *THE POWERS THAT BE*...they're complete LIARS and withholdin' information about some actual impacts that could destroy the earth...comin' up this month in fact...this story also is inculded in the :tinfoilhat: arena of suspicious military activities lately as well??? :shrug:

http://www.bushcountry.org/news/jun_news_pages/g_060104_withheld_june_2004.htm
*snip*
http://www.navynews.co.uk/articles/2004/0405/0004052601.asp Meantime, Channel 13 in Hampton Roads, VA reports in part that:

"Called "Exercise Blinding Storm" by the United States and "Exercise Rapid Alliance" by the U.K., the training will involve about 30,000 troops from seven nations in exercises off and on the coast of North Carolina. Dutch marines and French soldiers will take part, as well as a Peruvian submarine and contingents from Germany and Canada. The flotilla is expected to set sail Tuesday, with the two-week amphibious exercise scheduled to begin June 10. The British landing platform dock ship Albion has already arrived. It carried four Challenger II battle tanks — the British equivalent of the U.S. M1-A1 Abrams tank. The tanks will be sent ashore aboard the ship's new landing craft during the exercise. The biggest British ship — the aircraft carrier Invincible — also has docked with a crew of 1,050. " http://www.wvec.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D82SAKN80.html


*SNIP*

Carrier Group Leaves On Deployment
Ships Are Not Scheduled To Support Operations In Iraq
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/3339032/detail.html

HUGE NAVAL STRIKE GROUP IS DEPLOYED! Western Pacific
(1) Aircraft carrier Stennis (CSG)
(2) Guided-missile cruiser USS Lake Champlain (CG 57)
(3) Burke-class destroyer USS Howard (DDG 83)
(4) Guided-missile frigate USS Ford (FFG 54)
(5) Fast-attack submarine USS Salt Lake City (SSN 716)
(6) Replenishment ship USNS Rainier (T-AOE 7) Also
(7) amphibious assault ship Belleau Wood
(8) amphibious transport dock ship Denver
(9) amphibious transport dock ships Comstock
(10-11) Burke-class guided missile destroyers Preble and Hopper -- will depart next month.
(12) USS Tucson Departs on Western Pacific Deployment
(13) Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Russell

Also: USS McCampbell (DDG 85) departed May 5 for its first
deployment. The ship and its crew are headed to Southeast Asia in support of a Cooperation Afloat Readiness and Training (CARAT) cruise. McCampbell will be conducting joint naval exercises with the countries of Singapore, Thailand, Brunei, Malaysia and the Philippines.

Also: Twenty Royal Navy ships, led by HMS Invincible, are heading
off to take part in the exercise called Rapid Alliance, which is taking place off the eastern seaboard of the United States.
*SNIP*
Article: Marines Take off for Naval Exercise with U.S.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2918574

Mediterranean Sea Surface Strike Group deployment:
(14) Guided-missile destroyer USS Ramage (DDG 61)
(15) Guided-missile destroyer USS Ross (DDG 71),
(16) Guided-missile frigate USS Elrod (FFG 55)

USS John C. Stennis Strike Group Deploys for Pacific Operations:
Navy-Marine strike group leaves on 6-month deployment:
More than 5,000 sailors and Marines with the Belleau Wood
Expeditionary Strike Group will leave San Diego Thursday for
a six-month deployment in support of the war on terrorism
The amphibious assault ship Belleau Wood and the amphibious
transport dock ships Denver and Comstock will depart from 32nd
Street Naval Station beginning at 8:30 a.m. Thursday. "It is the
first time an expeditionary strike group will be commanded by a Marine general, according to the Navy.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/

2004/05/27/military/20_54_265_26_04.txt
__________

....just keepin' m'eyes and ears open to the *fringe* *chatter* :evilfrown:

[Bake]

19. Umm ... I don't consider the Vatican a particularly holy place

So I don't have a problem with any President carrying The Football in there. I'm just surprised the cardinals didn't try to KEEP it.

What you have here are two institutions, both bent on world domination. Ho hum.

Bake

[nodehopper]

22. That was such a confusing headline!

[seemslikeadream]

27. Another funny football story

"He is going to drop it on the Hill."

Saturday 29th May 2004 :
The Kissinger Tapes - Nixon, Chile, Cambodia and more ...
1 comment(s).
After a long legal battle, the National Security Archive has succeeded in winning the release of a large volume of telephone conversations taped by Henry Kissinger during the Nixon Presidency. The NSA web page with the transcripts of the conversations, streaming recordings of selected conversations and much supporting material can be found at http://www.gwu.edu / nsarchiv/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Haig Said Nixon Joked of Nuking Hill
Transcripts of Phone Talks Are Released by Archives

By Michael Dobbs

Washington Post Staff Writer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58802-2004May26.html

President Richard M. Nixon jokingly threatened to drop a nuclear bomb on Capitol Hill in March 1974 as Congress was moving to impeach him over the Watergate scandal, according to transcripts of telephone conversations among his closest aides that were released yesterday.

"I was told to get the football," White House Chief of Staff Alexander M. Haig Jr. told Secretary of State Henry A. Kissinger less than five months before the president's forced resignation, during a conversation in which the two men exchanged stories about Nixon's increasingly erratic behavior.

"What do you mean?" asked Kissinger, who had called Haig to express concern that the president might unwittingly unleash a Middle East war with his new, get-tough policy against Israel.

"His black nuclear bag," replied Haig. "He is going to drop it on the Hill."

The March 20, 1974, exchange is among 20,000 pages of transcripts of telephone conversations that Kissinger deposited in the Library of Congress in 1976 with the stipulation that they remain secret until at least five years after his death. Kissinger turned the transcripts over to the National Archives in February 2002 after being threatened with legal action by the National Security Archive, a nonprofit group that campaigns against government secrecy. The National Archives reviewed the transcripts for national security and privacy purposes and released almost all of them yesterday.

The transcripts shed light on the extraordinarily complex relationship between Nixon and Kissinger during a turbulent period in American foreign policy, from the bombing of Cambodia in 1970 to the Yom Kippur war of 1973 and diplomatic breakthroughs with China and the Soviet Union. Even as Kissinger attempted to convince Nixon of his loyalty, he adopted a sardonic tone in conversations with Haig and other aides.

In the March 20 transcript, neither Kissinger nor Haig seems alarmed by threats to bomb Congress or "to go after the Israelis" after "he is through with the Europeans."

"He is just unwinding," Haig told Kissinger. "Don't take him too seriously."

On other occasions, as in December 1970, when Nixon proposed an escalation in the bombing of Cambodia, Kissinger and Haig felt obliged to humor the president while laughing at him behind his back. During that episode, Kissinger was still serving as national security adviser, and Haig was one of his deputies.

The Air Force is "not designed for any war we are likely to have to fight," Kissinger told Nixon after the president railed against U.S. pilots for "farting around doing nothing" over Cambodia and "running goddamn milk runs in order to get the air medal." Both men suspected North Vietnamese guerrillas of using Cambodia as a sanctuary and supply line to South Vietnam.

"It's a disgraceful performance," Nixon went on. "I want gunships in there. That means armed helicopters, DC-3s, anything else that will destroy personnel that can fly. I want it done!! Get them off their ass."

"We will get it done immediately, Mr. President," Kissinger replied.

After talking to Nixon, Kissinger got on the phone with Haig to pass on the president's orders for "a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia," using "anything that flies on anything that moves." The transcript then records an unintelligible comment that "sounded like Haig laughing."

The transcripts include several episodes that appear at odds with Kissinger's version of events, such as his claim that Washington had nothing to do with the September 1973 military coup in Chile that toppled the democratically elected, leftist government of Salvador Allende. "We didn't do it," Kissinger told Nixon, "I mean we helped them. created the conditions as great as possible."

Peter Kornbluh, a Latin America specialist at the National Security Archive, said the passage appeared to mark an acknowledgment by Kissinger that U.S. policy paved the way for the coup that brought Augusto Pinochet to power. "It's diametrically opposed to the account he provides in his memoirs," Kornbluh said.

The transcripts show Nixon and Kissinger congratulating each other on the overthrow of "a pro-Communist . . . anti-American" government in Chile. The president agreed with Kissinger's assessment that the American press was guilty of "unbelievable, filthy hypocrisy" in expressing concern over Allende's overthrow while calling for the outlawing of the apartheid regime in South Africa.

more
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1134

[sleipnir]

33. I thought Jesus only plays hockey???

I guess He's branching out to new sports.

I hope the Pope is a good linbacker or at least can run an option play if called for.

[TexasMexican]

35. Lets have some perspective here people...

There were no nuclear weapons taken into Vatican City.

The "football" does not contain a nuclear bomb as far as I know.

Are communication devices banned in Vatican City? Is paper banned in Vatican City? If not then there is no problem here.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. No, it is the device

which controls those weapons. It is a symbolic affront to Christian teaching to allow such a device into the Vatican.

Politics and religion are about symbols (I should point out that Christianity and religion have little do with each other).

Paper has a myriad of functions and purposes, as do cell phones and radios. The "football" has one, and only one purpose: To initiate the slaughter of billions. To call it a simple "communication device" is improper.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984

[TexasMexican]

46. I'm sure the president...

could use a cell phone call some people and have other people killed too, does that mean cell phones should be banned from the Vatican?

The military uses computers to guide bombs and kill people, does that mean computers should be banned?

[Kelvin Mace]

63. You missed my point...

Politics and religion is about symbols. Cell phones and computers have more benign uses than fell uses. The "football" has only ONE purpose. It is the trigger for mass extinction of human life.

[Tellurian]

80. Yes, you were on the right track all along, Tex Mex..

I posted this earlier upthread and it is a deserved read to thwart the runnaway speculation here tonight and to vindicate the constant demonization of a good Pope.


http://www.brook.edu/fp/projects/nucwcost/box3_4.htm

[Kelvin Mace]

89. And I posted a response above

Please peruse at your leisure

Unless I am on the wrong board and this is freerepublic.com, a Pope who:

1) is anti-abortion
2) is anti-birth control
3) is ani-female
4) is anti-gay
5) is pro-Opus Dei
6) and rewards Cardinals who protect child molesters

is NOT a "good Pope".

[kodi]

37. "a canticle for leibowitz" just flashed thru my mind

what is all the fuss. we have a nuclear vessel armed with nukes called....corpus christi

[TexasMexican]

52. Actually its called the " USS City of Corpus Christi."

Its not a "Boomer" though, those are the Ohio Class SSBN. The USS City of Corpus Christi is a Los Angeles Class attack submarine, not a ballistic missile submarine.

It is nuclear powered, and I suppose it could carry nuclear armed Tomahawks and torpedos but generally attack submarines arent armed to destroy most life on this planet.

I have actually been on the USS City of Corpus Christi, as it occasionally stops here in Corpus Christi, Tx (my hometown) for public tours.

I have also been on an Ohio Class submarine, I dont recall the name though, it was in Kings Bay, GA.

Not that I ever plan to go into the Navy much less into submarines, but if I ever did I would rather be on an Ohio class than a Los Angeles class as there is alot more room on the boomers.

All that being said, I think its silly all the fuss they made about the sub being named Corpus Christi, I would much rather it had just been named USS Corpus Christi, instead of having the "City of" prefix. IMO it just sounds silly. However there are I think 3 or 4 other "City of" submarines.

[ThoughtCriminal]

50. Now how unreal a scene would it be

To actually USE the football in the Vatican?

[TexasMexican]

53. Yeah...

I guess we are all lucky that Bush didnt see any visions of Angels telling him to nuke Palestine or something.

[leesa]

57. Yup...and WH aides worry about Bush's erratic behavior

Reality check is due America!

[despairing optimist]

61. So what? A president takes the football anywhere

he goes. Republican, Democrat. It does't matter. What's the point?

Those who don't see the relationship between religion and violence need to educate themselves. Religions float on oceans of blood. Each generation does its part to keep them afloat.

The president's football was indeed in good company at the Vatican, as it would have been at many other centers of religious power.

[Kelvin Mace]

64. I completely agree with you

The point is that allowing the "football" into Vatican demonstrated the moral bankruptcy of the Catholic Church.

Somehow, I cannot see Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton bringing such a device to an audience with the Pope.

[TexasMexican]

68. Do you...

think they wouldnt take it with them? Or do you think that they wouldnt see the Pope?

Somehow I think you would be wrong if you answered no to either one.

[Kelvin Mace]

95. The proper response

for someone who actually espouses and believes in the teachings of Jesus would not have spoken to Bush if he brought that device into the Vatican.

Again, I cite Jesus' reaction to the money changers as to how he felt about the Temple of his Father being used for sinful activities.

Bush should have been told, "You are welcome here, the trigger for murdering billions is not."

What is Bush going to do, invade Rome?

(This may be a rhetorical question).

Again, on the diplomatic pecking order, John Paul is higher up the ladder. Bush knelt before him, something I am sure galled him no end.

[Rabrrrrrr]

71. No, I'm sure Clinton or Carter would have taken it with them as well

They - any president - would likely be called utterly negligent not to have the football with them.

Sad, but true.

But perhaps more to the truth - Carter or Clinton would never have gone to see the Pope (and they didn't) since the only reason for any president to go to the Vatican and see the Pope is if that president is a republican Catholic-hating ass who realizes he needs some Catholic street-cred in a upcoming election. Neither Carter nor Clinton were that kind of President. Apparently, only Reagan and Shrubbie was/is. Because, quite honestly, there really is no reason for a president to go to the Vatican, unless that president were Catholic and went there on vacation, or if one was the republican Catholic-hating ass yada yada yada I mentioned above.

[MetaTrope]

75. But Clinton DID visit the Pope

And JP2 made his infamous comment that, "The only leader I did not manage to have a proper conversation with was Clinton. I was speaking and he was looking at one of the walls, admiring the frescos and the paintings. He was not listening to me."

I suspect John Paul shot his anti-diplomatic wad with that statement, and will have nothing to say about Bush's ADD fidgeting throughout their meeting. (Since Bush would only have noticed the paintings if they'd depicted spaniels playing poker. On velvet.)

Looking it up, I've found the only other president to attempt to "reward" (bribe) the Pope with a medal was the ever-popular Lyndon Johnson, to Pope John XXIII. At least LBJ had the smarts to make sure the pope was dead, so he couldn't refuse it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. The poop...er...pope has obviously not heard the term "multi-tasking"...

...Clinton was more than capable of doing several things at once and doing all of them well. Junior has trouble "single-tasking".

[Kelvin Mace]

90. Yes, Clinton

did visit, but there is no mention of the "football". Whereas the press did mention it pointedly when Bush II and Reagan visited.

[TexasMexican]

102. So you think Clinton didnt have it?

or do you think the problem is that the press didnt report it?

[Kelvin Mace]

103. Dunno,

They made a point of reporting it when Reagan did it and when Bush did it. Of course, I'm sure that's because of the "librul" media. <g>

[California Democrat]

96. Get a grip....

It's a locked briefcase. It's got some codes in it. It's handcuffed to an military officers wrist who travels with the President at all times. It's been this way decades. It's unlikely that the Vatican will burst into flames if the briefcase passes through the doorway. The football has visited the Vatican many, many, many times before. Why is this newsworthy now?

Are you also offended by the pistols that the Secret Service carry?

Also Bush Sr. didn't accidentally leave the football behind after a tennis match. It is the footballs job to stay next to the President, not the other way around. It was the footballs error, not the Presidents.

[Kelvin Mace]

98. Try reading all the posts...

1) We addressed SS agent guns. A gun which can kill a few is not in the same league as the trigger of the US nuclear arsenal which can smoke the planet. Also, if the President wishes to visit my house, the guns stay outside, as does the "football". Of course, George Bush isn't exactly pinning for an invitation to my house.

2) The person being sanctioned is the Pope, not Bush. A person true to Christian teaching would not allow such a device in his presence, never mind the Vatican. Allowing such a device is indicative of the moral bankruptcy of the Church.

3) The "football" has never been handcuffed to anybody. It has a leather strap. The officer carrying did not use the strap during this visit.

4) According to news accounts, the "football" has been to the Vatican twice: This week and with Reagan in 1987

5) You are correct about Bush Sr.

6) The other issue which makes the Vatican visit improper is the Pope's tacit endorsement of Bush's anti-gay, anti-female agenda (lectures on Iraq not withstanding). And the accepting of a medal from Bush. How many people here would accept a medal from Bush no matter how deserved? An ethical person (which excludes John Paul) would have spoken to Bush on the grounds that the "football" be left outside the Vatican and would have declined the medal, then lectured Bush on his murderous campaign in Iraq.

John Paul did neither.

[leftofthedial]

97. I believe this is grounds for denying the Pope communion

he should be excommunicated for allowing the hoiest of holies to be defiled by a WMD in this foul way.

[impe]

105. Surely you jest

the holiest of holies? One gilded floor tile could feed a country. This man should be defrocked for harboring pedophiles under his watch.