REAGAN DEAD

[FuriousMNDem]

Just heard it on radio

no link yet

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. My sympathies to his family

[IndianaGreen]

Despite his policies, Reagan was beloved by many Americans

My condolences to his family.

I will now turn off the TV for my stomach won't be able to handle the canonization of Reagan that the media will unleash on an unsuspecting public.

[minkyboodle]

51. yep

I will do the same.

[Skittles]

102. he is "beloved" by Americans for the same reason Dubya is

they don't know the truth

[The Zanti Regent]

77. Sympathies to his widow

Mom had alzheimer's for 20 years. It is not pretty. I know what Mrs. Reagan went thru and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[incrediblehulk]

147. I Wonder...

if he knows he is dead? Or does he still think he is still with us, whereever that is...

[oddtext]

190. a tribute

A MOMENT TO REMEMBER A HERO'S PASSING

Ronald Reagan, or Mr. President as we all called him, would not
have found himself entirely comfortable with the deserved praise
with which we render his beloved memory now.

The Gipper always found time to admire the power in others--he
had little time to give in to the pomposities of power.

And he still teaches us a thing or two about dignity. Did he
complain about the difficulties he faced in his advancing years?
Not according to those who knew him best. He still managed to
carry pride where it was needed, even in the worst of times.

He stood proud even once a day, when he would stare into the
setting sun, lean forward, and defecate into Nancy's patiently
awaiting hands. Jokingly he would always try to press his nose
into his steaming wastes, but Nancy, ever his watchful guardian,
would gently elbow him into the closet while she cleansed
herself.

Would he recognize the world he had made? A world free of
communism, a world in which the middle east was made secure and
stable, a world in which no terrorist would ever threaten US
soil? Would he recognize a country in which all worked for good
wages and jobs stayed here instead of fleeing to warmer climes?

Doubtful. No, this heroic everyman would instead by now have
laughed and continued putting his penis on the doorbell.

You and I may regret his passing, but Ronnie, on the other hand
knew how to turn a sharp comment away with well-chosen humor.
When one of his many visitors would ask him how he was, how he
was feeling, he would respond, with a smile, "Roka, muh muh feh,
tatataa, owowowoooo."

I think we all know what he meant. Godspeed, O Captain, My
Captain.

[Lisa]

205. my condolences to Patti and Ron Jr. in particular

There are plenty of Democrats with Republican parents, and regardless of how I feel about Reagan's policies, I'm sorry that they lost their dad (for a second time that is -- they probably said goodbye to him many years ago).

[Fenris]

2. I'll believe it when I see it.

[saigon68]

151. When JOE MCCARTHY died in 1957 and was buried in Wisconsin

Legend has it my Uncle who lived near Appleton Wisconsin, got out his only thread bare suit, put on a white shirt and tie and went to the funeral mass for the man.

The reason he went, as he related to us years later, was to observe the coffin and to make sure "The Son Of a Bitch was really Dead".

Our family never respected any of these thieves, hoodlums and cowards. Raygun for all his military blustering, never put his own ass on the line, ever.

The next 4 days are going to be highly disgusting.

This asshole was no friend to the "huddled masses, the tired, the down trodden, the homeless" or working men and women in general.

[sazdem]

186. Reagan

Served in the military.

[tjwash]

187. Reagan served in the military like shrub served in the military......

...he was classified for limited service only, which permanently got him out of serving overseas. His first assignment was at the San Francisco Port of Embarkation, Fort Mason, Cal., as Liaison Officer of the Port and Transportation Office. Tough assignment.

[KansDem]

202. According to William Holden's biography "Golden Boy"

Reagan was also stationed at "Fort Hal Roach" in Hollywood, CA, where he made training films for the Army.

William Holden WANTED to serve overseas in combat but was refused because of his notoriety as a movie star (Holden lost a brother during the war--a fighter pilot shot down in the South Pacific). The book never mentioned if Reagan wanted to see active duty.

on edited: I read Holden's biography several years ago, so this is all based on memory

[Flagg]

3. R.I.P

In hell

[brslives]

141. On a slow-turning spit

:nuke:

[LuminousX]

4. If true, let's be civil

I'm shocked he lasted this long.

[NV1962]

23. Um, let's not!

The hysteric media outburst has already begun, his crimes against humanity notwithstanding. The blunt idiocy of that national self-deprecating spectacle makes me sick to my stomach.

Other than that, I'll proceed to celebrate the news in private.

For now.

[Pachamama]

163. Maybe he's been artificially kept alive till they needed the PR?....

....but then he didn't make it until October 2004?

[KittyWampus]

5. Wonder If They Took Out Feeding Tubes Yesterday

glad it's now and not October.

Remember Iran Contra.

[Pachamama]

164. Nope, feeding tubes were in tact and he just didn't make it until Oct. n/t

[Nlighten1]

6. Reagan is dead! Long live Reagan!

Reagan's spirit has left this earth but his twisted memory will be around for a LOOOOONG time.

[SarahB]

7. Goodbye Reagan.

End of an era. He suffered a long time. From a humananitarian/ spiritual point of view, I hope he's at peace with a bit more understanding of it all.

[crossroads]

79. I pray this is so...

:eyes:

[tedzbear]

93. He suffered a long time but so did my friends...

...who died a slow, agonizing death from AIDS in the 1980s while he and Nancy purposely ignored it.

I have no sympathy for Nancy because she had none for us. AIDS dementia is just as fatal as poor Ronnie's Alzheimer's.

:kick:

[brslives]

139. My loved ones would be alive today but for that lousy bastard

How many people died of HIV who would be alive today if not for Reagan?

How many jars of ashes did we have to throw on Reagan's White House?

How many acres of quilt did we have to sew?

How many protests, how many marches?

How many years and how many deaths just to get the bastard to say the fucking word AIDS in public? Let alone do anything about it.

I'm glad he's dead. I hope he suffered at least half as much as my lover suffered. Though I doubt he did. His kind never do.

[calimary]

146. End of an era, indeed.

I plan to tune out all the obit dreck we'll be force-fed for the rest of the weekend.

But, guys, we all knew this day would come. EVERYBODY did, regardless how any of us feel/felt about him.

Think of it this way. It IS the end of an era. The more superstitious out there, among the right wingers, may look on this as a bad omen. A bad 2004. It's certainly been that way for the republi-CONS since it started. Think of all the stuff for them in general, and for bush in particular, that's gone downhill since January. The seeming infallibility of the dauphin was finally shaken with the abysmal State of the Union speech, the Tim Russert interview, the AWOL controversy that actually bloodied his nose a little. Then there was the Democrats' unity, Kerry's rise from the dead, and the war turned really bad, as the casualties mounted and people started vaguely becoming aware of their numbers. And then the photos came out. Not THOSE photos, the coffin photos. THEN, THOSE photos on their heels. And the 9/11 Commission and darling contradicta, and then the barrage of books. Paul O'Neill's started it in - January. And the polls. Goin' south. Kerry gaining momentum to some extent. The war staying sour. The Plame Game, and George Tenet. And so much more. AND NOW THIS.

The more superstitious among them will be muttering about this. They'll see it as a metaphor. A bad omen. A symbol of their glory days being formally dead now. And they're left with this pathetic little piss-ant. That's all they have to show for it. It's come to THIS. And it won't be a pretty picture. Deep down, it'll cut them to the quick. Reagan's passing and reliving the "good old days" will only serve to underscore how far they've fallen, and how this pipsqueak doesn't begin to measure up.

Furthermore, it's beneficial that it's happening now so we can get all this over with - now. We'd hate it to happen in July when Kerry should have the spotlight. And we'd hate it to happen any later in the year. This is fine. This is containable.

Besides, Nancy is still here. And she's been doing some rather remarkable things lately, as far as speaking out and bucking the system. She should be supported. She went through hell, anyway. My dad died of a long, lingering illness - not Alzheimers, thank you God, but still really debilitating and hard on EVERYBODY around him. I can sympathize, at least to an extent. It was no picnic. AND Nancy's boy, Ronnie Junior, is certainly a voice of reason to be proud of. THAT is Reagan's legacy, too, you know. A son who's as far away from the Dark Side as you can get. Not a bad thing.

[Beatrix]

8. Hasn't been confirmed

Seeing nothing about this anywhere.

[Frances]

9. Reagan was definitely better than Bush

and his son Ron and daughter Patty were definitely better Presidentail children than this Bush was!

I don't think Ron, Patty, or Nancy cares for Bush. I wonder if Bush will go to the funeral.

[nodehopper]

24. I don't know. They were/are awful in different ways.

Just in terms of body count, I'm guessing more people died worldwide as a result of Reagan's international politics than Bush's. Then, again, Bush has 4 more years to go.

[DainBramaged]

76. WTF are you talking about "Bush has 4 more years to go".

If * has four more years to go, maybe you need to visit another board and discuss the reasons why you think he won't be led out in handcuffs on Jan. 20th of next year? * is the most criminal scumbag to ever take the oath of office, and you claim he'll be here 4 more years?


I beg to differ.

[nodehopper]

86. You misunderstood me

I said that Reagan has probably killed more people than Bush, but I was comparing Reagan 8 years vs. Bush 4 years.

So, "Bush has 4 more years to go" in the sense that Reagan had 4 more years to commit his global atrocities.

If i say that Bush will be here for 4 more years, that's the pessimistic side of me that's terrified by the proliferation of the Diebold machines and afraid of a military coup and suspension of elections via Tommy Franks scenario in October--none of those scenarios are impossible. Just because I was being macabre, does not mean I *want* it to happen. Of course, my deepest wish would be that Bush is lead away in handcuffs; however, the criminal cabal that has hijacked this government will stop at nothing to stay in power.

Don't jump all over me. Who appointed you the overlord of this board?

[DainBramaged]

95. "Don't jump all over me. Who appointed you the overlord of this board?"

No one appointed me anything, but hinting at giving up by your comment is how I took it.

Having read your explanation, I apologize, but don't condemn me for reading your statement the way I did.

I was infuriated that the appearance of giving up was even a concept. My very elderly mother will be voting for the first time in 40 years if she survives till this November. That's how important it is for me to stay resolute to end the nightmare we are enduring.

[nodehopper]

119. All right, peace

I couldn't agree more that we have to stay the course and not give up. That's why even if I let out my fears and anxieties in macabre or flippant humor, I'm still doing whatever I can to contribute to a Democratic victory in November, as I am sure are you and everyone on this board.

It just horrifies me sometimes to think that people turned out in record numbers to vote in 2000 election, and it did not matter because the election was hijacked...and this time they've got the Diebold machines and the Patriot Act.

[LeighAnn]

149. Both awful, but did Reagan really know what was going on?

Somewhere deep down I feel that he was oblivious to the suffering and slaughter his presidency caused, whereas George W Bush cannot use the Alzheimer's defense.
Weren't Bush Sr. and the Carlyle Boys really the ones in charge back then?

[nodehopper]

150. Aren't Cheney and PNAC neocons in charge now?

I guess you can make an argument for Bush being a marionette, but then Dubya is no less so. Dubya is even stupider than Reagan is. He is not in charge of *anything*--Cheney and Rumsfield are. I mean, to some extent when we talk about their horrors we talk about the administrations that stood behind them and their policies. Neither Reagan nor Bush were/are Global Monsters with a Vision like Lenin or Stalin or Pol Pot. But that does not absolve them of personal responsibility. Reagan funded the civil war in Guatemala (1 million a day!) that resulted in the genocide of the indigenous peasant population. Under Reagan's presidency the School of Americas graduates and their trainees tortured and raped their way through Central America. Reagan lied about the Contra scandal in press conferences and before Congress; he knew about it, but he lied. And his appointee in honduras, Negroponte (the same one) on top of that concealed from the Congress the activities of Batallion 3-16, the CIA-trained death squad that "disappeared," tortured and killed people in Honduras.

[Dulcinea]

Maybe Poppy will.

Boy George is staying in France for D-Day.

Much as I disagreed with Reagan's policies, Alzheimer's is a terrible disease that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[goforit]

122. Poppy???......I would pay to see him at Ronny's funneral......cause

I do have a premonition that Poppy may know a little
more about the shooting of Reagan than he lets on.

And the funny thing is now .....Reagan now knows who
really tried to snub him out.

Yes .....I would love to see Poppy sitting front and center!!!

Just a little Karma knocking at his door.

[Skittles]

104. the ONLY reason Reagan was "better" than Bush

is that Reagan was actually ELECTED.

[Pachamama]

166. And Reagan had real charm as opposed to Shrub's pitiful attempts...

:puke:

[Pachamama]

165. No fan of Reagan, but I would have chosen him anyday over both Bush's

Agreed about his kids too...and although I'm sure none of them want Bush at his funeral, they probably won't protest it because not wanting to stir controversy in Ronnie's name.

And we all KNOW that Chimpy and Rove & Co. are going to milk this event for all its worth...they are probably planning an even bigger funeral than JFK's after he was assasinated...

Ugh....:puke: :puke:

[TankLV]

174. Besides, not matter how much I revile the person, I can & still enjoy his

movies.

And he is a SAINT compared to *!

Did I mention how much I justifiably hate the man and everything he did politically?

This is good "timing". Only better timing would be if it was after Kerry is in office. All the syncophant sickening raygasm will be over in a week - and then it's more of bunkerboy and his gang of criminals till November - it'll only get worse for * from then on out.

[Trajan]

10. My sympathies to his family ....

I know feelings are mixed here in DU, but even as a staunch opponent of Reagan and his party, I think it is always proper to give the dead their due ...

Reagan, for all his faults, was a human being, and I shall not wallow in hatred within my OWN core for reasons of ego and self gratification ....

Fare Well, Dutch, and may you find understanding of WHY a liberal heart is a loving heart ...

[TSIAS]

11. Haven't seen any confirmation on the wire

[ewagner]

12. Condolences to his family

I hope he is a peace and comes to understand how his policies affected the world....that's enlightenment I guess.

[Moderator]

13. There's nothing on any of the major

cable channels yet...I'm locking this thread pending confirmation.

Thank you for your understanding. :hi:

[dolo amber]

14. Thanks for this, AngryMNDem

:hi:

RIP Ronald Wilson Reagan
1911-2004

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

15. Confirmed. It's on CNN right now.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Reagan cut a grandfatherly figure for many people

Reagan cut a grandfatherly figure for many people, myself included. As much as I loved my grandfather, I would not have voted for him for President. The same goes for Reagan.

The irony in here is that George W. Bush makes Reagan look like a sane and reasonable conservative. How far right have we come since the days of the Gipper.

[LiberalFighter]

41. Problem is... anyone (male) can be a grandfather

I would rather that either of my grandfathers were still alive then having RWR.

Even my maternal grandfather was better than RWR. The only real negative with him was that he was a grouch most of the time.

[Pachamama]

167. Agreed- Given a choice today of Chimpy or Reagan - I'd vote Reagan

...Chimpy has done as many bad things in his first year as Reagan did in his 8 years....

Never thought I'd hear myself saying I'd vote for Reagan...wow...that's scary to think how bad things have become...

[wellst0nev0ter]

17. Great, I Think We've Just Witnessed The Birth Of A "Martyr"

can't wait to see the ol' Gipper's mug staring at me from Mt. Rushmore :eyes:

[htuttle]

18. I guess that explains why a bunch of Ewoks are dancing around outside

:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

Nancy Reagan is a champion for stem cell research

She also called for increased funding for stem-cell research, which has shown promise as a potential treatment for Alzheimer's and other conditions, such as Parkinson's disease.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/05/reagan.health/index.html

People also forget that Reagan only paid lip service to the right-to-lifers. Reagan never pushed for pro-life legislation, preferring to introduce (but never push) bills that he knew would die in Congress. It was the elder Bush who actually promoted pro-life legislation.

Reagan and Nancy were not fundies either! Nancy consulted astrologers for all major decisions.

Like I said, Bush is so far out in right field that Reagan looks like a benign moderate in comparison.

[goforit]

123. LOL!!!........Yep, and let those Cristian Righties squirm now!!!

[TankLV]

176. Nancy deserves NO credit for her sudden found compassion for Az patients.

You and everyone knows damn well if ronnie didn't have it, she would care less about it. She only cares about it because it affects her PERSONALLY - not out of some altruistic feelings they would never have!

Their entire life was/is based on selfishness and "me".

I can't stand it where people give credit where none is due.

She'd probably be doing something important to her like she championed in her days as first lady - getting a new WH china pattern!

[mitchum]

19. My sympathies to the country he wrecked

My eyes are dry

[IndianaGreen]

21. My eyes are dry too, but it was Bush who wrecked the country

Reagan's policies, while clearly conservative, were still within the mainstream. Bush makes Reagan look like a moderate. Reagan may have spoken against the UN, but he would have never gone solo in Iraq, and Reagan never proposed a PATRIOT Act.

There was corruption in the Reagan Administration, but never to the levels it has reached under the current regime.

[nodehopper]

27. Bush *is* wrecking the country

Reagan held his own with Reagonomics and royally screwing Latin America among others.

[IndianaGreen]

29. There has been no shortage of US Administrations that have screwed

Latin America, from both parties!

[TahitiNut]

30. Agreed.

That said, Raygun was soulless and, before DimSon, the most vacuous sock puppet in our history. He was, and still is, a tool.

[jpgray]

42. Are you KIDDING me!?

For starters, Reagan:

-Destroyed the Fairness Act

-Exacerbated the AIDS crisis

-Supported death squads in El Salvador

-Sold weapons to Iran

-Started the crack epidemic (how many deaths do you think came of this? How many inner-city blacks had their lives RUINED forever, all hope of a future dashed to pieces?)

-Cemented the militaristic bent the country has been chasing down ever since.

-Made trickle down economics rule the conservative roost, teaming that policy with bloated military budgets glutted with graft. These policies represent the most direct kind of theft from the American people possible.

This is only a brief list. A fouler administration I would wager has never been seen, though perhaps perspective will prove Bush II's was fouler. Reagan has a record of death and suffering that is second to none. Only fools and those persuaded by a cult of personality would argue that his impact hasn't been extremely severe, and instrumental in allowing presidencies like Bush II's to happen.

[neverborn]

124. -Started the crack epidemic ???

?

[jpgray]

142. You didn't know?

The massive CIA-supported importing of cocaine that led to the crack epidemic began under Reagan's administration, with many ties to Iran/Contra--it's all in the Kerry Commission's report (yes that Kerry), and you can read an interview with Gary Webb about it here.

[Terran]

65. Reagan started the wrecking

For one thing, he made it standard procedure for Republicans to have a straw dummy as a candidiate who is propped up by a cabinet full of ideologues. Reagan was an empty shell, just like Bush, and he made Bush possible.

edit: typo

[savistocate]

73. best list

jpgray and truest reply. YES

[savistocate]

70. level of corruption--vast

--his legacy of Iran-contra..basement renegade rogue govt.

Empowered death squad torture murders of health edu Catholic aid
workers. Enabled the Abrams Wolfowitzs Cheneys and Bush Sr-Jr.... villains...ad nauseum.

Placed 248 marines in Beirut, against strongest military advise--to certain death.

Not only threw mentally ill from hospitals but veterans into homeless street life to slow deaths.

[Myrina]

88. Indeed, Bush the First and HIS Shadow Gov't ...

It's my belief that Ronnie was pretty much a figurehead (like the current squatter at 1600) while the VEEP (then Poppy Bush) and his evil cabal (many of whom are in the current Administration) ran their own shadow gov't ....

This isn't the first time the BFEE has fooled this country.

[crossroads]

81. I hated the 80's!

:eyes:

[orthogonal]

20. Rest In Peace

Rest In Peace.

While I never agreed with all his politics, it has to be said that he (along with Pope John Paul II and Gorbachev) did much to end the Cold War and Communism.

On balance, Ronald Reagan was a good man and a decent President. I'd certainly trade Dubya for Reagan. Reagan was (before the alzheimer's) more articulate, more intelligent, and by far a better speaker -- and a more moral man.

[No Passaran]

22. Didn't favor him

RIP regardless

[nodehopper]

34. WHAT are you talking about?

Ok, condolences to his family because it's not their fault Reagan was an amoral individual, but let's not buy into the myth here.

Reagan's atrocities and installation and subsequent military and financial direct support of military dictatorship and ethnic cleansing in Central America and his screwing of the Americal poor via Reagonimics do not make him a "good man"

For Guatemala alone he should have been tried for war crimes.

Obvioiusly, no one was going to put him to an international tribune, especially once he was an ailing patient, but let's call a spade a spade. There was nothing moral about Reagan or his polities.

[Bake]

49. The USSR wrecked itself.

It was economics, not Reagan, that brought about the end of the Soviet Union. Reagan just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Bake

[Skittles]

105. people who think Reagan "won the Cold War"

are so freaking delusional. :puke:

[primavera]

136. Amen to that!

I get so sick of hearing that dreck. I was studying Soviet studies at the time, reading copiously and following the news meticulously, and the truth of the matter is that Reagan did his damndest to keep the Cold War going, it was only by a miracle that Gorbachev managed to pull it of despite Ronnie's best efforts to the contrary. And to hear repukes hold him forth as some sort of concquering hero of the cold war just makes me want to barf, it is the worst kind of opportunistic historical revisionism. :puke:

[Lisa]

206. saw Gorbachev on CNN ...

Glad he's looking well. He was being gracious and giving Reagan a lot of credit ... very generous.

[BadGimp]

25. The man has died, but the Myth may never die

My he rest in peace and my sympathies to his family and close friends.

eom

[Zero Gravitas]

26. A Great President

compared to GWBush at least. Like most DUers I was never a fan of Reagan, but looking back at him it is amazing how far this country has fallen. Sure some of his policies were heartless (ketchup is a vegetable if you are a poor child) and his administration was sleazy (has any admin had as many of its members go to jail) and they were somewhat "casual" when it came to the rule of law (Iran-Contra) and they pissed away billions upon billions of dollars. But compared to the slime running the country now, compared to the far-right fascists and theocrats that infest the GOP today, Reagan was a good man and a true patriot. Back then it was still possible for both sides to regard the other as "real Americans" and yet disagree on policy. Today things are different, and our great country is rotting from the head.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Excellent points, WorstPresidentEver!

We have come a long way from the day Ronald and Nancy Reagan re-opened the remodeled Statue of Liberty during a weekend-long fanfare. The twin towers of WTC stood then as did our civil liberties.

All is lost!

[jpgray]

47. Tell that to black communities devastated by the crack epidemic

Tell that to the dead in El Salvador and Iraq/Iran, tell it to those who contracted HIV before it was a pet cause. A great president my round rump.

[Zero Gravitas]

50. I'm not defending Ray-Gun

My post title was meant tongue in cheek. Compared to G.W.Bush a ham sandwich would make a "great President". I detested the Regan Presidency but I don't want to spew hate about the man on the day of his death an 16 years after leaving office. My Grandmother died from Alzheimer's and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[crossroads]

83. Alzheimer's is a hard way to go...

:eyes:

[July]

101. So is AIDS. n.t

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[July]

159. "nuff said"?

When Reagan was president, people with AIDS had contracted it before it was a known disease. Hard to prevent something whose existence is unknown. Reagan's indifference to AIDS was exactly the wrong thing to do at that time.

[Rink]

193. Info:

http://www.sumeria.net/aids/duesberg.html

Interview with Peter Duesberg

by Peter Gorman


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Once the darling of the scientific community, Peter Duesberg, a professor of molecular biology at the University of California at Berkeley, threw his career out the window when he published a paper in the journal of Cancer Research in 1987 claiming that HIV did not cause AIDS. Coming from most professors, the paper would have been laughed at as the work of a lunatic, but Duesberg is one of the world's leading experts on retroviruses, the class of viruses to which HIV belongs. So instead of laughing at his theory, the scientific community chose to ignore it.

But within a short while of his paper's publication, as HlV-negative AIDS cases began cropping up and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) had to redefine AIDS to accommodate them, Duesberg's theory began to be noticed.

By then, however, the $6 billion-a-year HIV/AIDS industry, which includes testing millions of blood samples for HIV, pharmaceutical companies marketing $10,000-a-year antiretroviral therapies like AZT, ddl and ddC, and thousands of researchers and grants was too entrenched to consider that it might be barking up the wrong viral tree.

So Duesberg, whose credentials include being a member of the National Academy of Sciences and the recipient of a 1985 Outstanding Investigative Grant from the National Institutes of Health he was also rumored to have been a Nobel candidate for his work with oncogenes, thought to be a cause of cancer, in viruses was labeled a public menace. If HIV doesn't cause AIDS, his detractors say, then we don't need clean needles. And if sex doesn't cause AIDS, then we don't need protected sex.

Neither are positions Duesberg subscribes to: He sees both clean needles and condoms as valuable protection from all sorts of conditions. He simply doesn't believe that saving you from HIV will save you from AIDS, since he doesn't believe HIV causes AIDS.

To most of those in the AIDS treatment community contacted by HIGH TIMES, Peter Duesberg is at best a once-good scientist who is dogmatically protecting an indefensible theory. At worst, he is a homo phobe who hates intravenous-drug users and would be willing to let them all die, by dividing the scientific community if he could. He may be neither. He may simply be, as he claims, a scientist who is looking for answers to a pandemic.

HT: If HIV doesn't cause AIDS, what does the virus do and why do so many people with AIDS have it?

Peter Duesberg: HIV is a retrovirus. It's one of thousands of retroviruses that we know in animals and humans. HIV does what all retroviruses do. It replicates, albeit slowly and rarely, in humans.

HT: To what end?

PD: To its own replication. No other known end. It's claimed by many to cause a disease, but there's no evidence that while it's replicating it causes any disease whatsoever. There's some very tentative evidence from a couple of studies that when it first hits the human body it causes a flu-like symptom. Very likely, that's extremely rare, because among the many, many thousands who have tested antibody-positive, nobody remembers when he was first infected. That's an indication that during first infection, essentially nothing happens.

HT: You've also said that there are several thousand cases of people who have died from AIDS in whom neither HIV nor its antibodies were found.

PD: I listed those in a paper last year. I added up what I could find at that time and the total was 4,600. By now I could easily top 5,000 cases in the literature clinically diagnosed as AIDS, but without HIV.

HT: What is the clinical diagnosis of AIDS?

PD: Well, the syndrome called AIDS has by now about thirty diseases, previously known diseases, that when they occur in the presence of HIV are called AIDS. In the absence of HIV they are called by their old name. So, the clinical diagnosis of AIDS consists of diagnosing the AlDS-defining disease in the presence of HIV. For instance if someone has pneumocystis pneumonia or Kaposi's sarcoma, that's the first part. The second part of the diagnosis would then be, can you find HIV in the person? If you do, then you say it's AIDS. When you don't find HIV, you can say two things: Either you can call it HlV-free AIDS, or you can call it by the old name.

HT: Where did you find the 4,600 HlV-free cases you claim to have documented?

PD: I searched the studies of scientists who looked at risk groups gay men and IV drug users, in both Africa and America for the presence of these AIDS diseases, and then looked for the virus. And in some cases they couldn't find the virus even though they were trying. These I would call the HlV-free AIDS cases. That is to say, there were gay men with Kaposi's sarcoma in New York who didn't have HIV, and intravenous drug users, again in New York, who had tuberculosis or who had dementia and didn't have HIV. There were also hemophiliacs with less than two hundred T-cells that had no HIV and Africans with tuberculosis and diarrhea and again, no HIV. These cases were all initially diagnosed as AIDS until HIV couldn't be found.

HT: So the designation "HIV-free AIDS" is really just your own definition?

PD: Yes, but the Centers for Disease Control has invented their own new name for these hlV-free AIDS cases. They call them ICL_idiopathic CD-4 lymphocytopenia.

HT: Why did the CDC need a new name?

PD: To get around the HlV-free label, because if you accept that label you are acknowledging the existence of AIDS in the absence of HIV. The AIDS establishment thinks AIDS is caused by HIV. If there's no HlV, you really can't, by that definition, have an HlV-free AIDS. You can only have HIV positive AIDS.

HT: If it's not HIV, then what do you think is killing all of these young people?

PD: That is another question altogether. But I have a hypothesis about what's killing these people. The reason for AIDS in this country and in Europe, in my opinion, is the long term consumption of recreational drugs.

HT: What about marijuana?

PD: I have not seen any evidence that marijuana causes AIDS. If it did the whole city of Berkeley would be dead. No. I am talking mostly about heroin and cocaine, and then AZT, the medicine they use for AIDS, because AZT, as a cell killer, destroys your immune system enough to allow these opportunistic diseases to come in and attack your system.

HT: Why do you think heroin and cocaine cause AIDS?

PD: Well, if you look at the literature of diseases in IV drug users, you find many of them get tuberculosis, develop dementia, have pneumonia, have weight loss, have mouth infections and have fevers and night sweats. They are subject to all sorts of infections.

HT: Yes, but I think these are often prison related diseases, needle-sharing diseases and poor-quality, badly-cut drug diseases, not directly drug-related.

PD: Not all the IV drug users are in prison.

HT: No, but a lot of them have spent some time in prison.

PD: That could well be so, but I mean, of all US AIDS cases, over 100,000 of them are confirmed by the CDC to be intravenous drug users. You can hardly claim that 100,000 in ten years died from tuberculosis developed in prisons. According to the literature, they simply had these diseases from drug use. They came into the hospital after injecting these drugs for years because of the primary effect of being a drug addict: you don't want to eat, you don't want to sleep and in the end, you just eat some junk food. You just want some sugar and some alcohol and then you shoot up again. But if you don't sleep and you're suffering from malnutrition, protein malnutrition, the first thing that goes is your immune system. You become immune-deficient and you get an infectious disease. You get tuberculosis, you get pneumonia, you get mouth infection, fevers, night sweats. If that happens and then you check into the hospital and they find HIV, they say you have AIDS.

HT: Well, I agree with you that the junkie who cannot maintain his habit, who loses his job and home and ends up on a park bench somewhere is going to die. But this is one, two percent.

PD: These are 100,000 cases in America. A third of all AIDS patients are IV drug users according to the CDC.

HT: Why aren't the rest of them getting these diseases?

PD: There are also 50 million smokers and there are only like 300,000 lung cancers, because, with drugs, the dose is the poison. You do not get lung cancer from one cigarette; you do not get liver cirrhosis from one bottle of schnapps. You have to use it for years to reach a cumulative lifetime toxic dose before you have irreversible disease, before you're dying from these diseases, and only then we pay attention. Not everybody does that. A lot of people did drugs for a short time and then they said, "well, that's not good for me, I'm getting married and settling down" and then they stop doing it. There may be a million or several million drug users in this country, but not all of them use it long enough, or enough of it daily, to reach those critical conditions where they get weight loss, fever or these things. But that needs further study. I give you my hypothesis and this is not just my thinking; this is based on checking the literature extensively. Unfortunately, very little is said about drug use as a medical problem, because that is not politically correct. Most people feel intuitively like the medical orthodoxy: Drugs are basically harmless; they just happen to be against the law. That's why they recommend clean needles.

[psychopomp]

48. You forget

"But compared to the slime running the country now, compared to the far-right fascists and theocrats that infest the GOP today, Reagan was a good man and a true patriot."

Many of the Neocons that have power today got their start working under Raygun. Somebody else can come up with a complete list, but it's as if these guys had just been "frozen in amber" waiting for their time to come again.

And "true patriots" don't willfully neglect the least among their fellow citizens, which Raygun did with a vengence.

[Zero Gravitas]

54. Indeed

I am not trying to defend Reagan. I detested his Presidency, but I don't want to smear even him on the day of his death. He was a terrible president by any standard except compared to the nightmare we are now going through. Reagan did a great deal of harm, not least of which was fueling the Neocon's fire. Still I stand by what I said, compared to Bush* he was a good man and a true patriot. Compared to just about anyone else he was a right wing dim-wit who did a great deal of harm. It just goes to show how bad Dumbass Dubya is if Reagan looks good in comparison.

[psychopomp]

64. Okay, I getcha

Almost anybody looks good in comparison to this fool:



6.1.04

[Just Me]

67. While I cannot celebrate his political life, I will respect his death.

My sympathies to his family, especially Nancy who has had to bear a great burden over the last ten years and has advocated for stem-cell research as a result of an experience over which she and her husband had no power.

[Myrina]

90. Many of the people under Reagan/Bush are in DC now ...

... they've just clawed their way up the BFEE food chain and sit in the Shrub Cabinet.

[rfkrocks]

31. While disagreeing with him

He was hard not to like, as a person, and he was brilliant after the shooting-He lived much longer than people without means can last with Alzheimer's-but Nancy has at least shown some compassion with her strong stance on stem cell-RIP

[salin]

32. Tasteful statement by Josh Marshall

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/003041.php

Think it is fitting. Time for critiquing his presidency, imo, can be set aside for another time. Marshall gives a way that does not go for the fawning or the hero worship - nor does it go for gratuitous slams.

[Arugula Latte]

33. You guys are much nicer than I am

I have nothing but contempt for St. Ronnie. He set this country back years and years, and planted the seeds of unfathomable human misery. But, hey, if you can't say anything nice about the dead ...

[GinaMaria]

35. My sympathies to the honorable Americans

who trusted and believed in him. He was legitamately voted into office. As much as I despised what he stood for, I respect the voters' choice. There are many decent Americans who will feel a loss today. I wish them speedy healing.

I hope the media and the repukes don't manipulate and use these feelings to slow the healing and gain political advantage. He needs to be remembered honestly and fairly, after he is buried. He wasn't a saint. Diefying him won't take the feelings of loss away.

I hope cooler heads prevail for the sake of the average person.

[Arugula Latte]

37. How much do you want to bet

that the Repubs and the media will exploit his death RUTHLESSLY every opportunity they get? You can count on it. Remember the Wellstone memorial? They have NO shame.

[Pachamama]

168. They are going to make St. Ronnie's Funeral/Memorial bigger than JFK's

...Prepared to be nauseated beyond belief...they are going to milk this for all its worth...

I'm not sure what the best reaction of the Dem's and Kerry is...I think that they should "pay their respects" to him as a dead President, attend the events, be respectful and then let the matter die off...(although I'm sure the Bushies will try to keep this going as long as they can)....

Then, after say a month, they can get back to the real matters at hand and continue to criticize Chimpy and his policies etc. If Shrub starts trying to compare himself to Reagan (which he already does) then the Dems can counter by showing very clearly to the American public that President W. aint' no Reagan....

Remember Reagan at the Repuke Convention in '92? He said "I knew Thomas Jefferson and he (Clinton) is no Thomas Jefferson?" Well, I think Kerry has the perfect line "I knew Ronald Reagan and he (Bush) is no Ronald Reagan"

[kodi]

36. god rest his soul

.

[suegeo]

38. Reagan -- wasn't this the guy who armed the terrorists in the 1st place?

Will Ollie North be attending the funeral?

[IndianaGreen]

126. Jimmy Carter was the one that sent the CIA to help the Mujahedin

in Afghanistan despite warnings to the danger of helping Islamic fundamentalists in their war against the secular government of Afghanistan. Carter created monsters like Osama bin Laden.

Former CIA Director Bob Gates wrote that "Carter..implemented a covert finding to help the insurgents resist the Soviets almost six months before the massive Soviet move. US help was nonlethal and modest in size until the invasion, but it was a start.” Carter's aid to the Mujahedin began in 1979, 6-months before the Soviet "invasion."

[suegeo]

158. You're right. Guess I'm fixated on the Contras, TOW missiles to Iran.

Yeah you're right.

I guess I am fixated on the state-sponsored war/horror that Reagan supported -- the illegal funding of the contras behind the backs of Congress and the American people, the TOW missiles sent to Iran, the Kreigsfurher (Rumsfeld) sent to shake Saddam's hand after Saddam gassed his own people.

Stuff like that.

One might argue that Carter's secret war in Afghanistan helped bankrupt the Soviet Union, but then that would take away credit that the Reagan worshippers want to give to Saint Reagan for destroying communism single-handedly.

[daleo]

39. Reagan seemed like an affable type

But I think his administration began the descent that led to Bush II, Iraq, PNAC and the other bad things we now take for granted. Clinton staved off the worst of it for a while. One appreciates a little better now, how tough that really was.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

40. We all owe a debt of gratitude to Bill Clinton for his....

protecting us from PNAC.

JK will have to save us now.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

71. affable? He seemed like a grouchy old sorehead to me..

Now Clinton...Bill Clinton was genuinly affable.

[daleo]

78. Well, he was an actor

He seemed like an affable type, but that may well have been a role.

[LiberalFighter]

43. Maybe there will be fewer repugs in town during the lying in state...

That is fitting... lying

[psychopomp]

44. Nothing to be happy about

Nothing to be sad about, either.

The best thing I will say about Raygun is that he inspired the post-punk hardcore scene to ever greater levels of energy and activism and thus helped in the production of some great American music.

I am reminded of the Epilogue from the film "Barry Lyndon," which reads, "It was in the reign of George the III that the above named personages lived and quarreled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now."

However, we do not become equal once pass from this world, but rather we are equal as we live in it. I am not sure that Ron learned this lesson, but I hope he did at last. Clearly, as a politician, he did not change much from when he got his political start, helping ruining peoples' lives for the McCarthyites.

[hiphopnation]

72. I'm curious....

which music you're referring to.

[psychopomp]

133. Thinking Bad

BAD BRAINS, Bad Religion, Beefeater...

edit: DK's "We've Got a Bigger Problem Now" was a tribute song to Ronnie. Just about everything DK did was a reply to Raygun's vision of Amerikkka, however.

[DUJunkie]

45. trickle down mother fucker !

n/t

[Beaker]

46. i knew it was more than just the nice weather...

that was putting a spring in my step.

an evil force has been removed from the continuum.

what a goddaman beautiful fucking day- i think i may just burst into song at any moment...

Ding-Dong! Ding-Dong!...the evil fuck is Dead!

:bounce:

[California Democrat]

52. I'm ashamed to be a Democrat

What has happened to my party?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beaker]

57. then go register as a repuke., if you loved the guy so much.

as for me- i just hope they bury him within chucking range of a paper bag full of dogshit from the closest public access...

well...i got a joy, joy, joy, joy....down in my heart...down in my heart...i got a joy, joy, joy, joy....down in my heart to stay!

[minkyboodle]

58. gimmie a break

most of the posts have been quite decent yet you jump on an opportunity to profess you shame. I'm surprised the thread has been as restrained as it has considering Reagan's presidency and its consequences.... His family has my sympathy but I will not change my opinion of the man and what he stood for just because of the way he died. Many were not so fortunate to live to the age of 93 because of this man's policies.

[koopie57]

117. you are absolutely right

I am impressed with these posters who are able to stir up some compassion for this man. I'm trying, but I can't manage it. I don't like to think of anyone suffering, but for some reason I'm not as choked up about it when it is someone who could have eased others sufferings but choose not to do it. Rest in peace and all that, but he had good medical care and had it much easier than most others. There are many people who I cry for, but not some rich man who turned his back on the suffering of others. And I never dreamed there would be a day when I would find myself with such cold heart. When did that happen to me?

[Puglover]

59. Go away Zell!

n/t

[crossroads]

109. What has happened to your party ---- GWB!!!

:kick:

[crossroads]

110. They cut us no slack when Wellstone died...

...and he was a much better man and human being!
:kick:

[Rationality]

177. On one of those rare moments when you make a post, you say this.

Give Jim Rob my regards.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

69. ROTFL, my sentiments exaclty...join me in a toast.

(Im sipping some excellent German white wine now)

To Ronald Reagan,

...may you rot in hell you sorry evil creep!

>clink glasses<

[Rink]

96. *sighs*

How can you say that?
is there no respect for the dead here at all?

I dont care what your political affiliation is, at least respect his passing Please.

[RetroLounge]

112. No

RL

[Pachamama]

169. Will you respect Shrub when he passes?

Just curious...I'm not defending nor criticizing you or the posters who are rejoicing in Reagan's passing, but please keep in mind, many people actually remember the Reagan years and not what the Repuke party has "mythologized"...

[TankLV]

178. How often do you toast the memory of Hitler and Stalin?

Same difference.

He was pure evil - the epitomy of it - until * came along.

[Geo55]

53. Did not care for the man...

But I believe his next gig will be a real wake-up call.
(maybe he'll enter a regan world at the bottom...an' wait for the trickle down.)

[Sandpiper]

56. May your ideas die with you Ronald

You were a terrible president and your administration was a band of criminals. Your poisonous legacy is still hurting the country in the policies of George W. Bush.

[gauguin57]

63. though I hated

his policies and everything he stood for ... though I still can't freaking believe that guy was ever elected president ... he WAS someone's father and someone's husband. Condolences to them. No one deserves Alzheimer's, or to have their loved one alive and yet so strangely absent. I think we can extend our compassion (we're liberals, remember? that's our deal, compassion) to Nancy and family (even to icky Michael) without liking anything the guy ever did as president.

I just hope that, when Nancy is back on her feet after this, she'll keep the pressure on about stem-cell research. With the conservatives mourning their hero, Nancy can talk about how horrible the past few years of his life were. Perhaps someone will listen.

And I hope we see more of Ron Reagan Jr. That guy is hilarious. His quick-witted color commentaries about politics just crack me up.

[barbaraann]

60. It wasn't morning in America.

It was the evening of the postwar heyday of the great American middle class. The sun on the horizon was setting, not rising. Ronald Reagan was the great deceiver who made many Americans believe that the evening was the dawn, that the last light of Democratic goodness was the first light of Republican glory.

The twilight slipped away under Bill Clinton and now it is pitch dark under the rule of the people who brought us Reagan. I honestly don't think the great deceiver knew what they have planned for us. I don't think he relished bloodshed and lived for vengeance the way our current President does. But I do believe that he should have known that it is WRONG to use your acting skills in gaining office and leading a country. It's one thing for an actor to seek to become a politician, but it's an entirely different thing for an actor to use his or her craft in politics.

Now they have to trick us into embracing the black hell they have brought us to by convincing us that it is always darkest before the dawn. That will take a better actor than Reagan and I'm worried he's waiting in the wings.

[Angelus]

61. Good riddance.

One less repuke on this planet.

It was confirmed on cnn.com.

[Malva Zebrina]

62. He was 93 years old

and did nothing of import for this country.

He succumbed to Alzheimers ten years ago, and had the money to afford to have home aides care for him round the clock.

Others have to put thier loved ones in homes, where, more than not, abuses occur and the family has little control.

We have here a non hero, who lived a long life and was not suffering in a situation where strangers were bathing him or combing his hair

So what do we mourn? Nothing. He did nothing outstanding for us and he passed in relative comfort. so Nu?

[peacetalksforall]

66. I think it is OK to speak out about the vile politics of his handlers.

Yes, I also think he was 'handled' and mostly by the very same people who are 'handling' Bush.

He went from a person who was interested in politics to a most vile Governor. He then was given a face of a classy President that he couldn't fill, but whose role was helped by his acting experience.

Under his administration, this country drowned in bad policy. So, whether he was in charge or not, his handlers should be given no slack. Never.

He's another tragic human who has passed.

His handlers killed off a lot of people whether in the America's, Asia, or in the ghettos of the U.S. or as victims of the crimes of the drugs.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

68. Hurrah!

I just uncorked some wine that Ive laid up for special occasions, so as to celebrate.

Good riddance, and I piss on his tombstone (metaphorically speaking).

[Francine Frensky]

74. Interesting timing. Worst week ever for Bush. I really thought

thought they'd save this for October.

This saves all the repubs who have Sun. am talk shows to do, CIA, etc. and Bush's temper won't even come up now. Just everyone going on about how great reagan was.

[crossroads]

91. He is already being idiolized...

...and they talk like it is going to be an ongoing thing all week...this happened at a fine time for Bush, he can fuck up royally over there and it will all be on the back burner, long as Reagan is in the spotlight. I feel sorry for those he left behind because it was a dreaded disease I wouldn't wish on anyone, but I thought his 'trickle down' policies (star wars too!) were awful! Lots of people suffered in the 80's because of him... IMO, the best thing he ever did was be an advertisement and model for stem cell research! Nancy is to be thanked for that, tho I bet she never had to tend/take care of him 24/7 either... God forgive my negativity, but my gram died from that, and it was hard on everyone, especially her!
:eyes:

[Geo55]

111. he can fuck up royally over there

America's Beloved President Passes

(Bush compares Normandy landing to taking down insurgents)

[wtracy]

75. Good riddance

Good riddance. One less asshole on the planet.

[thebeaglehaslanded]

80. There is no mourning for a lousy actor, lousy president, and

an even more lousy excuse for a human being. I have nothing but contempt for this man and his legacy.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

84. Excellent. I agree with you. I will not be pious about this evil shit.

There are GOP presidents I respect.

Reagan was not one of them.

[Catholic Sensation]

82. to the few DUers who seem to be happy about this

I'm sure you won't have any problem with me being happy when Fidel Castro finally dies, right?

And just so anyone doesn't think I like Reagan, his economic policy was shit and his inability to do ANYTHING worthwhile minus speed up the demise of the worse-than-the-nazis soviet union didn't do damn good for this country. That being said, I do find joy at the death of someone disgusting.

[ElectroPrincess]

87. I admired the man's character, not his politics

I believe that Ronald Reagan "walked the walk." Yes, That means I don't think he was deeply involved in the dirty OPS such as Iran - Contra. He was more intelligent than GWB (isn't almost everybody) but nonetheless served as a figurehead. His speeches were enthralling to me in my youth before Army service. Now I'm more centered and less likely to fall for simplistic struggles such as "good" vs. "evil."

Still, I believe Reagan was genuine, in that, he believed all the propaganda he was reciting. Basically, although deluded, he was a man of genuine compassion who "walked-the-walk."

Reagan and McCain have been the only two Republicans that I've ever voted for ... and I vote at every given opportunity. Although I was in my teens and early twenties ... and presently my political views have changed, I believe that I'll always judge Reagan (and McCain) as a men of integrity and good character.

[mumon]

115. I guess you forgot he was the "Butcher of Berkeley"

Does the "Free speech movement" mean anything to you?

[Skittles]

106. I am finding no "joy"

but Reagan was one evil bastard.

[abracadabra]

198. I found the Joy you didn't find-----here-- have some of mine

YEEEE HAWWW !!!
a con man killer fascist dead !!!

[Snellius]

85. A mixed reaction

I'm a Californian, Berkeley, class of '69, and old enough to know who Reagan really was and what he represented. I always detested Ronald Reagan, even when he hosted one of my favorite TV shows, "Death Valley Days". I heard him give one of his typical speeches once, after he was governor -- a rant about bureaucrats and hippies and "storm-trooper" demonstrators and "getting the government off our backs." He would really say crap like "If you've seen one redwood, you've seen them all.", and say it as proudly and smugly as a gunfighter challenging his rival to a showdown. I couldn't help but heckle and boo him back. Three rows back. He seemed to love it.

When he won in 1980, I gave up on America. Reagan was the establishment's revenge for the Revolution, and without us, black, hippie, feminist, gay, tree-hugging, commie peaceniks, there never would have been any Ronald Reagan. But when he was done eight years later, my only thought was: "Well, he didn't do as much damage as I thought he would". Reagan, in a way was all bluff and smoke and mirrors. As vacuous and intriguing as Chauncey Gardiner. After all his tough talk, he was mainly all talk. It was all a role, an act, all show biz. So, in Lebanon he cut and ran. After crusading with a big tax cut, he ended up raising them back up. After ignoring AIDS as a cultural scourge, he was quite tolerant in his personal life. As a conservative, he was at least straight forward about what he believed, not like the duplicitous scumbag who today takes his place, who pretends he's a peacemaker as he rushes off to send those who trust him into a senseless war.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

97. Interesting perspective from an early Californian

thanks. It's nice to hear and be reminded of where he came from.
I'll just note that others here are not so charitable with regard to his early ignorance of AIDS.
They basically lay the deaths of many innocents at his feet.

[calimary]

188. They'd be pretty spot-on about that, actually. There's good reason to

lay the deaths of many innocents at his feet.

He blathered on about "righteous" "Christian" living, and turned his back on all pleas for AIDS research money from every quarter. It took people like Elizabeth Glazer (a heterosexual woman, a mom, a wife, who contracted HIV through a blood transfusion during a difficult childbirth, and then passed it on through her breastmilk to her daughter (who eventually died) and her son - who has HIV but still lives). She was the wife of actor Paul Michael Glazer, and she became quite the activist. It wasn't until people like her finally hit people like Reagan over the head with a proverbial 2-X-4 that AIDS wasn't a "gay disease," or worse yet, that it wasn't some revenge of God for being gay. Reagan was too far in bed with the Falwells and other conservative mullahs in this country who are quick to judge and quick to blame and pass themselves off as all-knowing, all-wise holy men and arbiters of morality, when they have feet of shit. All they are - are modernday Pharisees, and he embraced them and gave them credibility and listened to them and took on some of their views. It wasn't til much, much later that he actually found some room in his heart for this cause, finally admitting he'd realized this a little late in the game. But all those years that he shoveled the fundamentalists' line on this into the public's mouths were years that we lost, in terms of fundraising and consciousness-raising and precious time when we might have gotten a handle on the disease and saved a LOT of people froms suffering and dying from it.

[Robin Hood]

89. May he rot in hell.

I have no empathy for this cruel fool. 9/11 lies at his and dim sons feet.

[Rink]

99. question

How can 9/11 lie at Reagans feet when he wasnt even in office for almost a decade before it happened?

[Robin Hood]

143. Answer.

Because the first thing Reagan did when he got into office is take down the solar panels off the White House roof that Carter had put there. Raygun and the Republican party have done nothing but hold this country hostage to middle eastern oil, which has and is funding terrorism.

[robcon]

92. I think 'president' Kerry gets it right...

Kerry Campaign: Statement from Senator John Kerry on the Death of Ronald Reagan 6/5/2004
Contact: Bill Burton, 202-464-2800

Boston, MA – Senator John Kerry released the following statement today:

“Ronald Reagan's love of country was infectious. Even when he was breaking Democrats hearts, he did so with a smile and in the spirit of honest and open debate. Despite the disagreements, he lived by that noble ideal that at 5pm we weren't Democrats or Republicans, we were Americans and friends. President Reagan and Tip O'Neill fought hard and honorably on many issues, and sat down together to happily swap jokes and the stories of their lives. The differences were real, but because of the way President Reagan led, he taught us that there is a big difference between strong beliefs and bitter partisanship.

“He was the voice of America in good times and in grief. When we lost the brave astronauts in the Challenger tragedy, he reminded us that, ‘Nothing ends here; our hopes and our journeys continue.’

“Now, his own journey has ended-a long and storied trip that spanned most of the American century-and shaped one of the greatest victories of freedom. Today in the face of new challenges, his example reminds us that we must move forward with optimism and resolve. He was our oldest president, but he made America young again.

“Our prayers are with his family, and the wife he loved in a way all the world could see. And to the end, she loved him with courage and complete devotion. She helped all of us better understand the cruel disease that took him away before it took his life, and what we must do to prevent and cure it.

“Teresa and I and our family extend our deepest sympathies to Nancy Reagan and the Reagan family. Today, from California to Maine - ‘from sea to shining sea’ - Americans will bow their heads in prayer and gratitude that President Reagan left such an indelible stamp on the nation he loved.”

[abburdlen]

94. Does this mean that Alexander Hague is in charge now? /nt

[UrbScotty]

107. Yep. (nt)

[Pachamama]

171. Hee hee...good post...n/t

:kick:

[Shadder]

98. Update

REAGAN STILL DEAD!

[UrbScotty]

108. Just in at 9:10 PM

REAGAN, FRANCO STILL DEAD

BTW, nice avatar.

[Shadder]

200. Monday Update

Still dead

[suegeo]

100. List of laws that Reagan probably broke

Here is a list of laws that Reagan broke. I took this list from a book, source noted below.

I believe this list is only in regard to the Iran-Contra crimes. There may be other laws broken by Reagan, Inc. which are not listed here.

1. The Boland Amendment (Thou shalt not mess with Central America.)

2. The International Security and Development Cooperation Act of 1985, Public Law 99~83, Section 722 (d). (Thou shalt not provide funding directly or indirectly against Nicaragua.)

3. The Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1986, Public Law 99-169, Section 101 and 105. (Thou shalt not plan or covet military or paramilitary operations against Nicaragua, directly or indirectly. )

4. The Neutrality Act of 1974, Section 960 Title 18 of the US Code. (Thou shalt not engage in supporting, funding, planning or aiding military adventures against any country with which the US is at peace.)

5. The Arms Export Control Act, US Code Title 22, Section 2778. (Thou shalt not trade in weapons for export ,,'ithout applying for and obtaining a license to do so.)

6. Intelligence Oversight Act. (The CIA shall inform the Congress of intelligence acti,'ities regarding foreign countties.)

7. Executive Order 112333. (The US and its agents shall not participate in assassinations.)

8. The Anti-Deficiency Act, US Code Title 31, Sections 1341 and 1350. (Thou shalt not spend money for purposes not specifically authorized.)

9. Misuse of Public Money, Property or Records, US Code Title 18, Section 641. (Thou shalt not use US funds or property of value without legal authority.)

10. Fraud and False Statement, US Code Title 18, Section .1001. (Thou shalt not falsify, conceal or cover up by any scheme, trick or device a material fact or make false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or presentations of same.)

11. Obstruction of justice, US Code Title .18, Section .150.1. (Thou shalt not influence, intimidate or impede the due course of the administration of justice, including criminal investigations.)

.12. Conspiracy to Defraud the United States and Commit Other Felonies, US Code Title 18, Section 371. (Thou shalt not plot to violate criminal laws.)

13. Misprison of Felony, US Code Title 18, Section 4. (Thou shalt not fail to report a felony to the proper authorities.)

14. Federal Election Campaign Law, US Code II, Section 43. (Thou shalt not use or ~launder~ either foreign or federal funds for political purposes.)

15. Misuse of Appropriated Funds for Publicity and Propaganda, Section 501 of Public Law 98-411 under Departments of Commerce, justice and State, 1985. (Thou shalt not use any appropriation for publicity or propaganda purposes not authorized by the Congress.)

16. War Powers Resolution, Section 4(a). (Thou shalt report to Congress within 48 hours after US forces have been committed to hostilities. )

17.The foreign Assistance Act of 1961, Section SO2B(a) (2): (Thou shalt not provide security assistance to any country the government of which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights). These rights are defined as: tortures or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or prolonged detention without ttial or charges, or causing the disappearance of persons by abduction and clandestine detention, or other flagrant denial of the right of life, liberty and security of the person.

SOURCE: "Prophets without honor", by Strabala, Palacek. Algora Publishing, New York, copyright 2002.

[nolabels]

114. Just the obvious ones ( probably with multiple counts)

We will probably get to hear others later on.

Where theres smoke, there is usually fire.

[Skittles]

103. *sniff*

NOT.

[peterh]

113. .................

............:evilgrin:............

[Imperialism Inc.]

116. Reagan was the first President I was old enough to follow

and understand a little about what was going on. The only thing I can thank him for is for teaching me to never vote for Republicans and certainly not for any Bush.

I don't celebrate his death but I honestly don't care much.

[DoNotRefill]

118. Thank God he's dead.

Politics completely aside, Alzheimer's is a HORRIBLE way to die. The suffering involved is unimaginable for those who haven't seen it firsthand. At least he's out of his pain now.

Nobody, regardless of what they've done in their life, deserves to die from Alzheimer's. We need to find a cure.

[ElWood]

120. Politics aside for a moment...

... my father-in-law is dying of Alzheimer's. It's slow, horrible, and scary to watch because you just don't know if you are headed down the same road eventually or not. I sympathize with his family and mourn the passing of a life. I thought we were the compassionate ones?

[nonbelief]

121. He wasn't dead already?

I thought Reagan died in 1982, and the GOP inserted electrodes into his corpse to make it twitch for the cameras while his cabinet sold missiles to Iran and illegally funded terrorists in Central America.

[arwalden]

125. Good Bye!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

127. Reagan was the first president I remember - and the first one I hated

I came of age during his saber rattling bullshit reign. Name something good that he did as president. It will be easily outweighed by the evil perpetrated on his watch.

I do not rejoice but I do not mourn. He lived a full life and I'm sure his family loved him very much.

Other than that - adios fascisto!

[meisje]

128. He Was A Good President!!!

For Me To Poop On!

[fortyfeetunder]

129. The only good thing I can say about Ray-gun

and trust me, I was young enough then to remember this.

He did a helluva good job with "GE Theater" and "Death Valley Days"

[T Bone]

130. Bedtime for Bonzo

sorry, I just couldn't resist...

[northofdenali]

131. Good. n/t

[Enraged_Ape]

132. Reagan wasn't all bad, not like the idiot evil monkey in the WH today

Some good things I can say about Reagan:

1) He was genuinely popular and overwhelmingly, legally elected by the people of this country...twice.

2) He didn't completely trash the Constitution, open up concentration camps in Cuba, and start multi-billion dollar wars for the sole purpose of making his oil buddies even more ungodly wealthy than they already were. (I know, that's damning him with faint praise.)

3) I enjoyed listening to his speeches. Damn if he wasn't a good speaker. He may have been full of shit, but he was at least convincing.

4) I was more afraid of the USSR in Reagan's time than I was of my own government. Reagan made me feel like the Soviets would think twice before nuking us. It may have been misplaced confidence, but it was confidence nonetheless. Now the US government scares the crap out of me.

On the other hand, I can't think of one single good thing to say about Bush. Nothing. Nada. He is 100% shitbag.

[GaryL]

134. Call me crazy but...

I don't give a flying shit that he's dead. And I mean that as respectfully as possible. Now, loosing my best friend in the last unnecessary war, that I cared about. And for the rest of the weekend I'm going to get an ear full of meaningless platitudes over him. Some talking head actually said and I'm paraphrasing, when Reagan took a stand, he really stuck too it. Huh? Being bull-headed is a good thing?

[brslives]

135. You're not crazy..Ronnie Raygun was a murdering crook

Whoopee!!

I can hardly believe I outlived the old bastard!

Where do I go to piss on his grave?

[Gabysan]

137. Reagans Passing

I am appalled to see this caviler discussion of a mans death. Dislike him, disagree with him, hate him if you like. I am one Democrat that refuses to celebrate the death of a human being.

[Pachamama]

173. I agree, but damn I'd party on if Shrub died...No, take that back because

...we'd have President Cheney! AAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

I'd have chosen Reagan anyday over Bush I or II and I truly feel sadness for his family....I've had Alzheimers' in my family and its awful...

[primavera]

138. Sorry, I just can't get all worked up about it

Okay, I'm sorry he died in the way that I'm sorry that anyone dies, but hell, a whole lot of people die everyday and almost all of them are more virtuous than Reagan was. He was a poor actor, a worse politician, and a human being with an ugly and hypocritical mind. The world can live without him.

[johnfunk]

140. "Nation mourns as Smarty Jones fails to clinch Triple Crown"

ROTFLMAO -- that is the "Breaking" news over at American Politics Journal, Dobbs bless their black hearts!

Below that headline, this breaking story:

Ronald Reagan dies at 93; controversial 40th president`s administration was tarnished by Iran-Contra scandal and obscene deficit spending, but his rapport with Mikhail Gorbachev helped the Soviet leader dissolve Communist regime.

OUCH!

[shanti]

144. oh

how timely.

[kidrocks]

145. Ronald Reagan dies.

My condolences to Nancy Reagan and all of President Ronald Reagan's supporters.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

148. He killed many innocent people and continues to as an icon of eugencs.

His secret wars in Central America complete with death squads and mass graves (oh look, John Negroponte is headed for Baghdad now),

-his emptying the mental institutions on to the streets giving us armies of homeless many of whom are veterans,

-his economic eugenics from insisting that poor people were lazy and not to be trusted,

-his obscene military budgets and fixation on an already dying Soviet Union,

-his inability to distinguish reality from myth that Americans to this day suffer and causes mass murder as a result of their inability to think rationally without jingoism.

These are just a few of the reasons I'm glad the bastard has left this world to join the many he killed. Good riddance. Now let's evolve and heal from the grotesque dysfuntion he helped bestow on this trouble nation.

[abracadabra]

194. Reagan's tyranny spurred on the PUNK ROCK movement(

"let'm eat Jellybeans"--a quote said by Ronald Reagan
Such a decitful bastard --hated the poor-
loved the corporate interests.
Can't dislike that weasel enough !!
Many young people at the time were aware of Reagan's atrocities and it reflected in the music.
An entire generation was poised against the fascists.
The Punk Rock movement united young people against Reagan and company and inspired awareness through music.

Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys said it all in the song
"We've Got a Bigger Problem Now"-->
(an updated version of California Uber Alles)

The military machine is again the great monster.
The hell with Bush, Reagan and any other insane individuals who misuse the power of the United States military.

Rest in Hell Reagan !!!
don't like you any more dead than when you were alive.

[zmdem]

152. A great man has passed

Regardless of our views of his policies, Reagan was certainly a titan. Since FDR, only LBJ could be considered his equal, but even then I would suggest that Reagan still wins the crown.

He revitalised the Republican party and made it the dominant force in American politics. President Clinton had to steer to the right to win election. Reagan dropped the "Realpolitik" that had informed American foreign policy from the late '60s and instead agressively set out to defeat the CCCP, and he was successful. He restored a sense of confidence to a nation shaken by the defeat in Viet Nam and the watergate scandal. Perhaps most importantly, he shifted the center of Ameican political thought to the right.

Like it or not, that is history, and Reagan was the key figure. He transformed American politics in a way that hadn't been done since FDR.

[Puglover]

154. Like dimson....

Ronnie was a jovial puppet being playing by the evil bastards standing behind him. I take no joy in his suffering or passing however your assesment of him makes me wonder how comfortable you are going to be on a progressive board.

[muchacho]

155. A criminal is dead

Reagan was an actor that played a great man. He lied to the American people of the evil empire's impending doom on all our heads (sound familiar?) and drove the country into record deficits to feed the military industry to guard us against the illusion.

Then there's AIDS, Star Wars, Contra....

Reagan was a criminal that should have dies in prison if we held our government t the same standards we hold other regimes.

[Stuckinthebush]

157. Perhaps a great political force

but not a great man.

Carter is a great man, albeit, a weak political force.

In his defense, he was a puppet and he was a great puppet.

My condolences to the Reagan family, but having been in their shoes with a family member living for a long time with Alzheimer's, I'm sure they are sad but relieved.

[Snellius]

160. Reagan was all show biz. I'll bet you think he never dyed his hair too

The cosmeticized persona of Ronald Reagan seems more compelling than the reality of what he did. And who he was. I remember another Reagan, a self-delusional space-cadet in love with his own theatrical image of himself, a self-created image as a good-guy cowboy, riding off into a mythical land of benevolent capitalism, predatory, parasitic underclasses, and evil empires. Reagan had no more to do with the end of the Cold War than any other American president, despite what Grover Norquist would have you believe. John Lennon, and what he represented, had more to do with the overthrow of the Soviet Union than Reagan did, a counter culture that Reagan himself lead the attack against.

The Reagan myth is hogwash, kid. I assume you're not old enough to remember the more hard-nosed Reagan when he was governor of California, inflaming the antiwar riots, preaching "If you've seen one redwood, you've seen them all." Reagan was all show business.

[TankLV]

182. "Great" in the same way that Hitler was a "great" german leader.

Not a good thing at all.

[bitchkitty]

156. His body died -

but the man himself has been dead for years.

[The Zanti Regent]

162. I'll believe it when I see the wooden stake driven through his cold heart

Pruneface was the ultimate vampire.

Now he is gonna roast in hell for all eternity!

[Pachamama]

175. Yep, Reagan has been "Dead" for atleast 5 years...just ask his family

...its only his body that has been alive....we had Alzheimers in my family...its awful....

My hope is that Nancy Reagan and her family find peace now and that Ron Jr. (who is Gay) starts to speak out fervently against Bush and his policies for a Constitutional Amendment banning Gay Marriages, that Nancy Reagan speaks out for Cell Stem Research and that their daughter speaks out for Dems and Kerry!

:kick:

[PATRICK]

161. It is wasteful to be

dancing on the grave of a man who ceased to be responsible, responsive to criticism or for that matter, ceased to be living, years ago. NO satisfaction or triumph can be gained here except of the meanest, most irrelevant sort.

Human nature with all its foibles let him get elected, let happen, or participated in, the theft of democracy and the ruin of the world. The only good thing about the sort of rabid tone of the Reagan retrospectives here is that it does dispel all illusions of our moral superiority and intellectual fairness. One can see how the pressure will be on us, if we succeed in a aiding progressive government, to adopt even worse faults than this. The worst with gusto.

Today's mourning is only for the comfort of the relatives who have been through hell. If memory serves me correctly we might have Nancy Reagan to thank for not giving the crazies free reign during the second term and perhaps some small measure of peace, at least in denying Ollie North the Senate seat from Virginia. All she has now is a bitter release from a long purgatory with more wolves at the door to try to use her husband to their ends one last time.

Wiser heads have mentioned here that this obligatory frenzy of adulation will pass. None I work with are wearing black. Indifference in fact can be the cruelest and and most final judgment of all. How different with FDR or JFK, one because of the breadth of his relationship with the people and the other meteoric and tragic. Our only concern should have been warily eying how the GOP crazies- one more despicable time- were going to use Reagan as they had in the past. They had even wanted to run him as VP, knowing full well physically he would be in every sense a puppet to their designs.

THAT was cynical cruelty. They and their joint legacy with Reagan continues to prey upon the living, so I see no cause for joy of any type at all, no matter your feelings. In fact with what people have listed it pales against what has transpired of late in caricature fashion of a shallow image, of horrible wrongs.

Let the media do their thing. We have work to do- to build. If it is built on hate it IS the other side, and they will have won their greatest victory. Remove these people from the ability to harm themselves and others and it would be easy to be compassionate. Well, Reagan is removed, has suffered mutely and unconsciously for years with the cruelest strokes of true history relentlessly marching on the piety and hyperbole of the manipulating right wing. Marching inexorably to render his legacy almost as you would have it remembered now, at an impossible time when a huge chunk of the nation is living a deluded life.

But time can be a pendulum as well as a final judge. Don't swing on hate and reaction or you will just end up on the other side of the dump. We need people to steer to the best and most solid democratic values. Throughout history, the victors in great combats have in many ways become their enemy, become what they said they hated and learned to hate what their enemy hates. The right wing hates the people because the people do not join with them. We might hate them for nearly the same reason.

So a lie is preserved in another madness. The infection crosses to a different breed.

Today is different. Today we can't survive with this process, that reaction, this humanity at war with itself. The challenges are greater and the danger all encompassing. Let the dead bury the dead. The Right hopes their people will spring to new action with some arousal of their spirits. What are we hoping to accomplish by dancing on a grave, interrupting our march on the future?

It is easy to drop a subscription, leave a group, change Churches, even move to Canada. But the leisure to believe that is a choice that will save mankind- or our integrity- is gone. Reagan is not likely to be the only one to die this year. Grieving should be respected for there will be more to come that will touch all hearts.

It can be fun to mock and fight and poke fun, so long as when the time comes to rise to the occasion we do not lower the occasion to our lazy force of habit. Reagan will be at peace when we have buried all his failings with him. Untwist those damning legacies by putting them into the earth and save all our souls. None of what has happened no matter what side one takes has been very flattering of the human race.

Those of us in a Swiftian mood still believe in a future. The past is fertilizer, let's not roll in it.

[Pachamama]

179. Great Post...Agree - we have much work to do...let the Repukes have...

...their big funeral and mourning and let's keep the focus on the real work that needs to be done...

Amen

[Pachamama]

170. "I knew Ronald Reagan and he (Bush) is no Ronald Reagan" .....

...that should be John Kerry's line at the Democratic Convention...just like when Reagan made the similar statement about Clinton in regards to Thomas Jefferson...

[The Blue Knight]

172. This makes me fucking sick.

I thought, as liberals, we were supposed to be benevolent, kind people?

Some of these posts just make me want to fucking hurl. Yea, Reagan was a terrible President, who's cannonized by the right wing...but you know what...he was a human being, and to be honest, I doubt he would wish death upon ANY of us Americans.

Can you imagine how you would feel if the Right wing would say some of this shit about Paul Wellstone? Ohhh, how we would assail them then. But, how is THIS any different? He's one of the Right's dead, and you may not have cared for the guy, but at least be respectful.

And I know I'm going to be called Zell Miller, and a Freeper disrupter, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Immature name calling and celebrating the death of others is a trademark of the OTHER side of the fence...not ours.

[Rationality]

180. Nah, I'm not going to call you a Zellot or a Freeper

But you forget, this is a political forum. Politics come first. Decency be damned. That tends to apply everywhere... here and FR included.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

181. Some people were really hurt by Reagan

They're just unloading steam. I can understand some of it. Especially now with Reagan II and half of that administration back in the White House.

[TankLV]

183. No - it's called playing by the rules of the game the repukes started!

You don't play kissy-face when they're trying to kill you.

And they are, make no bones about it.

[The Blue Knight]

184. Really? They're trying to kill me?

Kidding? Right?

[Katha]

185. Thank you

[LetThemEatWar]

203. as primus front man les claypool once sung

"Welcome to this wooooooorld!"


nothing new here mate. thought you read the du forums!

[IconoclastIlene]

189. sympathies to the family.

otherwise, I really do not care about this man.

[abracadabra]

195. to the family?maybe you mean to the families devastated by a tyrant

Sympathies should go out to all those hurt by this con man.

Rest in Hell Reagan!!

[JVS]

191. Huzzah!

[despairing optimist]

192. One less to deal with

I'm saving my compassion for the still-living victims of Reagan's legacy, as well as their families and friends. At least Reagan got to die in bed.

[montana_hazeleyes]

196. Is he still dead?

Just checking.

[moondust]

197. Who?

Somebody died?

[Shadder]

201. As of 1: 38 EST Monday

Still dead

[struggle4progress]

199. Mercifully. His mind had been gone for more than twenty years.

[lpbk2713]

204. His body simply caught up with his alleged brain.

It was just like the repubs to put a B-grade actor in the White House.