A Tough Time for 'Neocons'

[DaveSZ]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-na-neocons10jun10,1,2805682.story?coll=la-home-headlines


A Tough Time for 'Neocons'


WASHINGTON — As U.S. tanks surrounded Baghdad 14 months ago, an ardent group of war supporters in Washington toasted the success of an invasion they had done much to inspire, as commentators spoke of their virtual takeover of the Bush administration's foreign policy.

Today, that same group, the neoconservatives, is itself under siege.


Many fellow conservatives have joined liberals in criticizing their case for the war. Rivals in the State Department and the Pentagon have taken charge of the U.S. effort in Iraq. And in a grave threat to their reputation, Iraqi exile leader Ahmad Chalabi, a longtime favorite of neoconservatives, is enmeshed in an FBI investigation of alleged intelligence leaks that supplied secrets to Iran.


"Neocons" — best known for advocating aggressive foreign and military policies — are in the painful zone between distinction and disfavor in Washington. They are losing battles on Capitol Hill. Their principles have stopped appearing in new U.S. policies. And where neoconservatives were once seen as having a future in Republican administrations, the setbacks in Iraq could make it difficult for the group's leading members to win Senate confirmation for top posts in the future.

-more

[sweettater]

1. Excuse me a minute

while I put my eyeballs back in their sockets.

[modrepub]

16. Gone until after the reselection

EOM

[PurityOfEssence]

2. Bummer. Cry me a river. Make it the Styx.

I'll tip Charon; you just help me get 'em aboard.

[muchacho]

9. Carry on my wayward sooooon..

wait, that's Kansas.

[realcountrymusic]

39. that is a truly funny line eom

[Seabiscuit]

42. LOL - PurityOfEssence!

I like to think that the neocon clique which stole the White House and is currently "squatting" in the Oval Office (and in too many House and Senate seats) and crowing about their "squatters' rights" will be served their eviction papers by us in November. And I won't be satisfied until they're squatting on their putrid arses in ankle chains in various solitary cells in Gitmo, under the rules they created themselves for that wretched place.

[KissMyAsscroft]

3. It doesn't matter. The damage is done.

nt

[Hekate]

4. The popcorn's in the nuker. Extra butter.

Go ahead -- make my day! woohoo!
:party: :toast:

Hekate

[union_maid]

5. I've noticed that the neocons themselves are shifting blame

They're blaming the Bush administration without taking any blame. Bill Cristol and Richard Perle to differing extents have voiced their displeasure with the way the war was handled. So, the administration can choose between having prosecuted an unnecessary war and having prosecuted a war badly, although they can have both, too.

[Th1onein]

29. Did you notice that, too?

Who does that remind you of? Sound like a familiar litany? BUSH. The 'personal responsibility' president is never personally responsible for ANYTHING. So who's turning the kay in his back? THE NEOCONS. This has got their "not my fault" signature all over it!

Please, LA Times, don't smear shit on my bread and try to tell me it's just jelly.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Welcome to DU!

I agree with your sentiments! Let's work together and take back the country!

[Edmond Dantes]

14. I'm with ya!

The neocons destroyed my life, as well as many others', in their march toward the Hobbesian state of nature where "might makes right." Dems could have nipped it in the bud early, but did not due to naivety and spinelessness. Obviously, we need a major reinvigoration on the liberal/progressive side.

None of this Iraq mess would have happened if the Democratic Party leaders had adequately assessed the growing neocon threat and squashed it early on.

I've been a Dem since I was age 14. But I am seriously disillusioned with my party's wimpishness.

When I have time this evening, if anyone is interested, I will tell you all about a conversation I had with Senator Biden on an Amtrak train shortly after the Clarence Thomas hearings.

Warm regards to you all. It is SO nice to be able to commune with others of my kind on this forum.

[Mel]

19. Welcome to DU Ewan I Bushwackers

I'm most interested in hearing about your conversation with Biden.

[Edmond Dantes]

31. "We'd be just as bad as they are."

Thanks for the welcome, Mel.

As you may recall, Senator Biden was chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee during the Clarence Thomas hearings. Sexual harassment of Anita Hill was the big issue and Ted Kennedy was painfully quiet because of his own questionable behavior vis-a-vis women. Unfortunately, there were few, if any, other strong Dem voices on the committee (if I recall correctly off the top of my head).

As chairman, Biden could have -- and, in my view, should have -- been more aggressive to compensate for Kennedy's relative silence. However, Biden was obsessed with maintaining the appearance of fairness and, consequently, his performance was rather namby-pamby.

Now keep in mind that while Biden was playing the role of Mr. Fairness, DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel -- yes, the same office that prepared the torture memoranda -- had set up a "War Room" in the Senate office building from which they provided substantial assistance to Clarence Thomas during the hearings. (In fact, some months later, Thomas would invite the OLC attorneys to his Alexandria home for a picnic to celebrate the War Room's success.) Thus, Thomas was being spoon-fed information by a crack team of Bush I neocon "might-makes-right" attorneys, as needed, to respond to the Judiciary Committee Dems during the course of the hearings.

I will omit the details of how I initiated the conversation with Biden on the Amtrak train after the Clarence Thomas hearings were over. Suffice it to say that I was able to get his attention in such a manner as to ensure a serious, honest conversation -- devoid of political posturing on his part.

I forcefully, but respectfully, opined that we Dems had not been sufficiently aggressive with Thomas; we could have stopped him if we had been willing to fight harder. I also informed Biden that OLC attorneys had established a War Room from which they coached Thomas during the hearings -- which means that Thomas' testimony was not his own but, rather, the testimony that he had been spoon-fed by neocon OLC lawyers.

Biden seemed surprised to learn of the War Room. Nonetheless, after a moment's reflection, he stated in all earnestness that if we Dems fought more aggressively "we'd be just as bad as they are."

As much as I personally like Senator Biden, I was extremely disappointed in his naive response. In my opinion, if one is not willing to fight back aggressively, one might as well refrain from fighting at all. Why waste time and energy on a meaningless dog-and-pony show? (I later learned that apparently even Biden's wife thinks he is politically naive.)

The Biden I spoke with on the train is not the Biden I saw at the Ashcroft hearing. I am glad that he now appears to understand why it's important to fight back aggressively. I just hope it's not too late for our country. At this juncture, the neocon cancer has spread its tentacles throughout the federal government. What could have been stopped in the early 90s with a simple lumpectomy will now require radical surgery and chemotherapy. It will be a long slow recovery --- if we recover at all.

James Madison must be weeping right now in the afterlife.

[Just Me]

33. Do you believe that, people really understood what they were dealing with?

Maybe political naivety is involved,...but,...I wonder whether people were able to conceive of the level of depravity underlying the power-grabbers. Who knew that such blatant deception and lawlessness and corruption and pure greed would be pursued in such brazen ways?

:shrug:

BTW - I enjoyed your Biden story and suspect that you may very well have influenced him to open his eyes and take a strong stand against that which is tearing our country apart.

[Edmond Dantes]

43. I considered your question at length...

I guess I would have to agree that few could have anticipated the full extent of the depravity and corruption. In the early days, the neocons took great pains to fly well below the radar. Moreover, it would have been difficult for anyone to believe that such scoundrels could gain a toehold in the highest levels of government in the first instance.

Having said that, I can tell you unhesitatingly that EPA career attorneys had some sense of what was going on in the early 90s because they observed firsthand the extent to which the White House/OLC sought to undermine regulations being promulgated under the new Clean Air Act Amendments. EPA attorneys referred to OLC attorneys as the "thought police". Unlike career attorneys in the State Dept. and the Dept. of Defense who came forward with their objections to the OLC legal opinions on torture, however, the EPA attorneys simply bitched and moaned among themselves -- but took no action (of which I am aware) to stop the White House' legal assault on the environment.

In any event, my comments to Senator Biden about the need for Dems to fight more aggressively were made BEFORE I myself realized the full extent of the neocon danger. Little did I know that my instincts would prove to be so "on target".

Thank you for your kind words about my having influenced Senator Biden. While he may not recall me or our conversation, perhaps he did recall that someone -- many years ago -- had flagged OLC as a highly effective, behind-the-scenes, neocon legal cabal. And given the importance of the legal issues, he's finally speaking out with conviction. I hope he continues.

[Just Me]

44. Thank you for your reflective thoughts. *eom*

[teryang]

7. Why, are they in prison where they belong?

When a Congressman or (cough) journalist doesn't bow in supplication and utter "we are not worthy" it is referred to as "tough times."

[Sporadicus]

8. Neocons Blame Antisemitism For Their Reversal of Fortune!

a tactic comprising the next-to-the-last refuge of the scoundrel. Ask anyone - whether democratic socialist or paleoconservative - why they hate the neocons, and antisemitism is unlikely to emerge as a reason.

My reasons for hating the neocon agenda include the quest for empire, espousal of eternal warfare, unbridled hubris, and the hundreds of character flaws I see among the minions in their ranks.

[KissMyAsscroft]

11. Dont forget the war profiteering...

...

[Sporadicus]

21. Yes, Among Others

My coffee hadn't kicked in yet when I wrote the original post, but I've come up with some more reasons for hating the neocon agenda in the meantime.

Unconditional support for Israel's policies at the expense of American interests. (I don't believe this comprises antisemitism on my part).

Their belief that only the elite were able to handle to the truth; everyone else can be lied to unconscionably. They view their prevarications as 'noble lies.'

Although their members are largely secular Jews, they see nothing wrong with using religion - as well as nationalism - to inflame the emotions of an 'ignorant' populace. This is their solution to 'preserving democracy.'

Going back to my 'eternal warfare' statement: if no convenient bogeyman exists, one will be manufactured.

This is by no means a comprehensive list. I'd like to see more revelation of the neocon agenda - not only in this forum but in the major media as well. I hope their fall from grace leads to continual criticism and - dare I hope - jail time!



:grr: :nuke:

[Eloriel]

26. Origin of that meme

Which, since the neocons promote the Likudnik goals for the ME, is part and parcel of the "Criticism of Israel = Anti-Semitism" meme IMO:

Halper: Yes. Anti-Semitism feeds on the idea that Israel is a victim. The Foreign Ministry of Israel invented a new form of anti-Semitism in the last few years called the 'New anti-Semitism,' and they then found some professors willing to give it some academic credibility. The New anti-Semitism that is now being spread all over says that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, period. And it has been very effective.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/module.php?mod=book&op=print&id=806

The whole article is worth reading.

[Gman]

12. Don't get too excited...

its the LA Times. They've been calling these guys out for quite some time now. Wait till you see this in, like, USA Today or something.

[Disturbed]

13. Neocons are arrogant imperialists.

Had these fools followed the advice of the Brits re: colonization Iraq may have gone more smoothly. Letting all the Iraqi Military go home with their weapons and not pensions was a huge mistake. De-Baathification was another huge mistake. Chalabi was a big factor with that. Allowing the looting another mistake. The "abuse" and torture of detainees another huge mistake. I am sure the posters here will come up with other mistakes, aside from invading in the 1st place. Now the US is moving more towards the Brits advice on how to install a Puppet Govt. and buy off as many power brokers as possible.

I doubt that the mistakes can be overcome. I suspect a mass uprising will emerge in July.

[are_we_united_yet]

15. I'm in tears

I feel so badly for them.

Boo effin hoo.

[sendero]

17. What's amazing ..

... is all the equivocation here. "Could make it difficult for the group's leading members to win Senate confirmations" - oh really?

This debacle should render it impossible for any of these fools to ever hold a high post in government again. Exactly how many Waterloos do you get before you are crossed off the A list?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. Well,

You had your Nixon, your Reagan and your Bushes.

Still scratching...


Edit: Or is that "still Rubiconing?"

2nd Edit: Rubicon, hmmm, RubiCons...I kind of like that! :think:

[sendero]

20. I don't think ...

.. that the average American thinks of Reagan's or Bush1's presidency as a waterloo.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. I don't think

...that the average American thinks.

(Particularly about the ramifications of bad policy.)

[sendero]

24. Maybe not...

... but if s/he does, s/he is not going to lump Reagan and Bush1 in your group.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. I guess I agree with you...

My point is that 40 and 41's policies are cut from the same cloth as 43's. I see the failure to recognize that fact as something that Americans are going to have to come to terms with before they can move out from underneath the system of government(corporate oligarchy) proscribed by these three.

[sendero]

28. I sorta agree...

.... but not really. Yes, Reagan laid the template in many ways. Yet I don't place him or Bush1 in the same league with Bush2.

The thing that makes Bush2 reprehensible is not his policies, it is his blatant dishonesty and willingness to pitch decades of treaties and agreements with the rest of the world to have his way.

I don't think Reagan would have done that and I know Bush1 didn't.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. I understand your distinction.

:thumbsup:

[sendero]

35. Peace bro..

... we are more or less in violent agreement :)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

38. D'oh! See #36 nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. *chuckle* ---I had this sitting on my clipboard...seems appropriate.

M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!
Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.
M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.
Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.

[SlingBlade]

22. If they were where they belonged

In front of a firing squad THEN would be in a tough spot.

[DinahMoeHum]

27. I don't just want the neo-con-men out of office. I want them gone.

Period.

Preferably in a supermax facility, stripped of all their financial assets.

And once they kick the bucket, be sure to put a stake thru their heart.


:nuke:

[Edmond Dantes]

32. Can we torture them first?

I'd love to saddle up some naked neocons and go for a little ride --after my snarling German Shepherd persuades them to publicly masturbate, of course.

Hey, I'm on a mission from God! You know. An eye for an eye? <heavy sarcasm>.

[Disturbed]

34. Debate with Neocons

I have had a few. Their bottom line is that Iraq and Afghanistan will be democracies in time and that those that don't think so are not willing to wait for a few years to alow the proper outcome. It's a bit hard to debate against that. I don't know if they actually believe that but proving otherwise is impossible. They obviously are willing to apply any means they deem necessary for their ends.

[Just Me]

37. *LOL* They would assert that forcing them to debate = torture!!! n/t

[Edmond Dantes]

45. Honest debate with neocons is impossible.

IMHO, the neocon position is mostly spin with little or no substance. If you try to debate with these disingenuous bastards, you are wasting your intellectual energy.

A better approach, I think, is to satirize their positions. I have found that to be the most effective way to highlight inherent absurdity. And the humor helps people remember your point.

I know it's trite, but laughter really is the best medicine!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. The best part is this was a front page LAT story

I remember a couple short years ago when the NeoCONS were operating under the register and nobody had even heard of them...then shortly prior to the war, they puffed up their feathers and the term went mainstream...now things are so fucked up, they have painted a target on themselves for political defeat.

[The_Casual_Observer]

41. Does this mean that chimp is going to begin to distance himself

from this bunch in the next month or two? "I don't know Mr. Perle"

Bush is up to his old tricks again, pretending to move toward the middle just before an election.