Were Abu Ghraib abuses learned from Israel?

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/06/27/MNGMM7CTSF1.DTL

Palestinians who have spent time in Israeli detention say the images of sexual abuse and humiliation from Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison are painful reminders of their own experience at the hands of Israeli interrogators.

Some, like Hisham Abdel Razzaq, the Palestinian minister for prisoners, believe the similarity is more than coincidental.

"I am inclined to think that the Americans copied the Israeli techniques, " said Abdel Razzaq. "I can't prove it in an objective manner, but the striking similarities are overwhelming."

But veterans of Israel's Shin Bet secret service, which conducts most of the country's anti-terrorist investigations, scoff at such charges and say sexual humiliation of the type seen in photos from Abu Ghraib is not even a useful tool in interrogating suspects.

"Under questioning, a terrorist should be made to yield," said Ami Ayalon, a former director of the Shin Bet. "Sexual abuse goes too far by breaking him, so it's not an option. A broken man will say anything. That information is worthless."

[daleo]

1. Sad how widespread acceptance of torture has become.

"Israelis are divided on the use of torture, but most agree that it is permissible in the case of "ticking bombs." Even before the current intifada began in September 2000, 64 out of 120 members of Israel's Knesset parliament said they supported the use of torture in questioning suspected terrorists."

I have also read that torture is fairly widespread in other countries in the middle east, Muslim countries, so I don't mean to single out Israel. It is just jarring to hear elected politicians support the practice publicly.

[geek tragedy]

2. From what I've heard

the Isralis were shocked by Abu Ghraib and said they'd never consider that as a systematic approach--given that they will have to be living with the Palestinians as neighbors.

*Points finger at the White House and FU Cheney*

[H2O Man]

3. While there are similarities.....

there can be little doubt that these techniques are being taught by American sources. Many of these have been taught in the School of the Americas, etc, and actually go back much further in practice in this country. It seems likely that Israel learned most of their tactics from Uncle Sam.

(*** Rubin "Hurricane" Carter was on ESPN2 on Friday night. When one of the announcers asked him about the torture, Carter made clear that it is the same tactics that many prisoners have been subjected to in US prisons.)

[lostnfound]

5. Reference for US torture tradition...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Torture/Torture_page.html

[The Magistrate]

4. That Is A Silly Conceit, Ma'am

The idea the soldiery of the United States had to learn cruelty from such upstarts as the Israelis is something of an insult to its proud traditions, from Viet Nam through Korea to the Phillipines and the Indian Wars. It has been well said that there is nothing new under the sun, and with the exception of the modern innovation of electricity, this is nowhere more true than in the abuse of prisoners. These things are the common heritage of human-kind, down all the millenia it has enjoyed civilization....

"I know of nothing against him except that he is a human being: that ought to be enough to hang any man!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[IndianaGreen]

7. That tradition you speak of is bogus, my dear Magistrate

Cruelty and war crimes is the only tradition of our military, going back to the shameful role our Marines played in the Philippines Rebellion, where the term "gook" was first coined.

[cosmokramer]

6. A load of baloney...

...this is just another attempt to unjustly link Israel to 'the cause', and it is a bunch of BS.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Torture is legal in Israel

Just look at how Israel treated a Jew, like nuclear whistle blower Mordecai Vanunu, and think how much worse it is treating non-Jewish prisoners.

It is a fact that US Marine Corps had observers present during Israel's incursions into Jenin and Ramallah. British press accounts, posted in DU at the time, described the USMC presence as a training opportunity to learn lessons that could be applied in Iraq (this was before the war began).