US complains to Mexico about Marine funeral

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06303077.htm

MEXICO CITY, July 6 (Reuters) - The United States complained to Mexico on Tuesday after Mexican soldiers interrupted the funeral in Mexico of a U.S. Marine killed in Iraq.

At the funeral of Mexican-born U.S. Marine Juan Lopez Rangel last Sunday, armed Mexican soldiers blocked the way of U.S. Marines taking part in the ceremony and demanded they hand over two replica rifles, local media reported.

After a brief standoff, the ceremony continued, after which the U.S. Marines returned to their vehicles and left soon afterward.

"I have respectfully requested an explanation of why, despite our coordination and compliance with the instructions of Mexican authorities, military personnel of Mexico interrupted the ceremony and made demands that were inconsistent with diplomatic protocol," U.S. Ambassador to Mexico Tony Garza said in a statement.

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[burrowowl]

1. The Mexicans are not fond of armed

Marines. The Marine song: From the Halls of Moctezuma ...
Even with fake guns.

Reminds them of the child cadets killed by the Marines at Chapultepec.
The Marines have invaded Veracruz, Mexico City; sent Marines to kill Indian miners on behalf of American Smelting and Refining in 1910; Mexico was used for training troops for WWI, re General Pershing; etc.
Remmeber the San Patricios, Irish immigrants in the U$ Army that went over to Mexico's side.
Also, Mexico sent men to be in the US Army during WWII and the Brazeros who have been screwed out of their Social Security. Mexico is so far from God but so close to the U$.
Read Howard Zinn: A People's History of the United States, for just a small glimpse.

[silverlib]

2. I have worked under Tony Garza before

...at the Railroad Commission of Texas. My guess is that he forgot to tell the Mexican government that the rifles being used were not real. He was never much for details.

[mallard]

31. they really should have cleared ...

... their schedule with the local authorities, through the national ones - as a modest show of respect, if not for the sake of doing it 'right'.

I'd like to see how the reverse scenrio would play out- if Mexican marines tried flying their colors without a permit in Texas.

[greblc]

3. Mexico owes...

an apology!

Semper Fi.

[burrowowl]

4. NO THEY DON'T!

Mexico declared war before the U$ because they didn't need the approval of Congress before Roosevelt.
Cardenas (although a Fucktard) let, upon the request of the US, Mexicans join the Army to fight Hitler, they even had a small Air Force in the ME, the Brazeros who helped keep this country fed during WWII have been screwed, etc.
Go read up on Smedley Butler I think, a Marine.
However, the Halls of Moctezuma in the Marine Hymn was about killing CHILDREN!
When the Marines are really defending our Country, I'm all for them, but in Mexico, they did all sorts of horrible things like killing Indian miners for Amewrican Smelting and Refinery. Veracruz was the Navy bombing the shit out of civilians and the Marines went in upto to Mexico City killing a hell of a lot of Mexican women and children.

[greblc]

5. And this Marine...

was a part of that? So his funeral should be raided by the Mexican Army?
I'm sure the Mexican army has never perpetrated anything like what you describe.
Marines do not inherently kill women and children.Hate the politics not the
Marine.
Our Country has done and continues to do a lot of F'uped things. A young man in service to you , me and our country gave his life. Right or wrong he believed and had faith enough to die for it. I think he, his family the Marine Corps and we are owed an apology. Your welcome, for the right to disagree.

Semper Fi

[burrowowl]

7. They did

in 1910 kill women and children over the border from Arizona (killing like Pinkerton). Relative now dead could testify.
Look up Chapultepec!
They let him be buried but they didn't want the guns(fasle or otherwise). US Marines and Guns are very symbolic and real to Mexicans.
Worst than England's George III, since at the time many Americans were Torys and for him.

[Jack_DeLeon]

11. So that excuses trying to interrupt this dead man's funeral?

Were any of the marines that were there responsible for the actions of what happeneded in the past?

Its fucking disrespectful to try to interrupt someone's funeral. The politicans should have had the decency to wait till after it was over to make a scene of it.

[greblc]

12. Thanks, Jack

[burrowowl]

13. Not if the funeral

goes beyond just being a funeral and what is permitted.
May the Marine rest in peace.
But making a U$ Nationalistic show of it, is not good. And is the U$ going to give any benefits to the family? Probably not.

[greblc]

26. A Military funeral is just that, a display. "a show"

and from what I 've read the mexican government approved it excluding a 21
gun salute. The Dress rifles were inoperable and when they were they were
not automatic weapons.
The family will receive benifits from the military.

[Jack_DeLeon]

27. Why wouldnt the family get death benefits?

It was the family that requested the "show."

[burrowowl]

30. Have the Brazeros

or troops from Mexico who served in WWII and went back to Mexico get what they were promised. # guesses and the first 2 don't count. Hint begins with N.

[greblc]

34. Who were they fighting for?

Mexico? US?

Words don't often carry much weight legaly. Was there any written agreement?
I'm not Baiting you I'd just like to here the story. I think you wrote Mexico Declared War against japan beforethe US did? If thats so wouldn't they be fighting for themselves?

[burrowowl]

35. They didn't have an Army

The US asked Mexico for help and got permission to enlist Mexicans into the US Armed Forces.
The Brazeros were asked by the US to come and be farm labor to relieve men in the US to go to war (WWII). The Brazeros were promised Social Security benefits, etc. Many are now suing the U$ to get them. The present Gov't is not about to honor committments made by FDR's Administration.

[greblc]

37. Wow I didn't know that.

I sincerly hope they and their families win.
Did the enlisted earn anything? Citizenship? Pensions?

[burrowowl]

38. Pensions

but haven't been paid.

[greblc]

39. Goodnight, I have to work in the morning.

good luck to them. Thanks for posting.

[bigbillhaywood]

15. Gee, you're welcome

I keep forgeting that every jarhead who has ever served is responsible for my freedom. Forget the ACLU, the IWW, Martin Luther King, Clarence Darrow, Susan B. Anthony, Medgar Evers, Cesar Chavez, The Haymarket 8, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Frankin, Eugene V. Debs, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, Rosa Parks, John Brown, Mother Jones, and countless union and political activists who have been arrested, killed, maimed and imprisoned to fight for real freedom. It's all you jarheads who I owe my freedom to.

I'm sure you were REALLY fighting for my freedom and not US corporate interests. Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, covert and clandestine missions from El Salvador, Nicaragua to Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela and Guatemala-- training and supporting death squads that killed nuns and priests just to protect US corporate (not our) interests: yeah real fights for American freedom. The American Revolution, the Civil War and WWII-- okay I'll give you those. But from one vet to another--Go peddle your self-serving militaristic propoganda elsewhere.

[saigon68]

42. Totally agree

I too am tired of debating these military right at all cost wannabees.

They are mostly bums and bullies who love beating up the black, brown and yellow man.

They love to put hoods on the head of the arab man too

[UTUSN]

6. In ShrubWorld We Have Trouble with the Concept of "Sovereignty"

Other countries', that is.

[greblc]

8. Yes but...

the family had approval from the Mexican government. I'm sure the Marines on hand were inflamatory and things got out of hand. Anyone who is greiving
is most likely on edge. Apologize and Let the Marine rest in Peace.

[PROUDNWLIBERAL]

9. No

No apologies and Cheney the Marine Corps---a bunch of degenerates! They are killing kids in Iraq now---take a look at reports out of Iraq of the Marine snipers shooting kids and shooting people trying to get into hospitals. May the marines and the marine corps rest in hell! Kick their asses out of Mexico!

[greblc]

10. Not nice.

I served in the Marine Corps. Hate the politics not the Marines. Those degenerates are people too. War sucks. I'm right there with you. The death of inocent people is tragic. We should not be in Iraq. I protested this war. I have children and I would move to Canada before I would allow them to be drafted.
There is humanity on every side. This Marine who died was a kid once too.
His mother loved him. He had friends, he had enimies. Every Marine takes an oath to protect our country and put his life before others. You don't know who he was but you'd comdem him to hell. You sound passionate about your beliefs. What would you give your life for.

[burrowowl]

14. Giving one's life

for U$ imperialistic policy is different than giving one's life for one's country when actually attacked.

[greblc]

17. The kid died

A life lost is life lost. My guess is he didn't sign on to opress others and further our
Imperialistic President. My guess is this kid Loved our country, same as most of us do
and chose to join the Marines. Maybe he didn't have the opportunity to go to college and study Geo Politics.Who knows? No kid enlisting anticipates bad policy. So explain to me how his death is different to his mother?

[burrowowl]

20. His mother probably only wanted

a simple burial and to greive amongst her family.
In the 30's and 40's ASR, would sell the company store tin can goods shipping boxes to the Indians forced to work in their mines to bury their children who died of starvation because the Indians could no longer hunt and farm.
A Mexican funeral is not like an American funeral.

[greblc]

22. But why is his death different to his mother?

Not what his mother wanted at he funeral.

[Jack_DeLeon]

28. your statement doesnt jive...

If the family only wanted a simple burial then why did they want him to be buried with military honors?

These are done at the request of the family, the US government doesnt force these funerals on anyone.

[bigbillhaywood]

16. True, but..

"Every Marine takes an oath to protect our country and put his life before others."

This oath should really read "Protect our country's corporate interests and put his life before the cowardly rich fucks who sent him there to kill other poor people in the first place."

[greblc]

21. I agree with you

It is the rich f*ck who sent him there. So disband our military? Is that your answer. I 'm by no means pro-war and the only thing I peddle is my Bike.
So save the B.S. The military has its place. It's been missused more often than any one can count. But you'd be singing God save the Queen at your Redsoxs game if the colonists had chose not to form a military.

[bigbillhaywood]

33. I'm no pacifist my friend

But lets be realistic about what role the US military has played since 1871: protectors of corporate interests. Both at home and abroad. Let's not forget the use of the US armed forces to attack strikers in the 19th and 20th centuries, as well as MacArthur's attack on the Bonus Army in DC (vets demonstrating for their pension payments). And as far as foreign interventions for US corporate interests, I've highlighted but a few already.

[greblc]

36. The reality is...

War is always about money. Sometimes there is some Humanitarian effort
that goes along with it. Our military has done awful things at the hands of our leaders. Anyone in the military makes choices to follow orders. The elisted at
the prisons in Iraq who participated in the abuse and torture. Even if told to do
so by a senior were wrong to do so. They were following unlawful orders.
Some of these historic events could be considerd Unlawful. Some of the other could be consider Unjust wars. I'm not a historian or a lawyer. I trust that most
of the persons serving know the difference between right and wrong and will act and Vote accordingly. This war in my opinion is about Money and is Unjust. This opinion does not influence the way I feel about the 40 something National Guardsman who has been in Iraq away from his wife and kids for going on a year and half.( It's gotta suck to be him.) I respect his personal sacrifice. I'm sure by now he is wishing that you and I had made the military our carrer. Then he could sit back at the drill site and drink coffee one weekend a month. And we could enjoy the sand!

If he should die and wish to be burried in Mexico.....God Help him!

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greblc]

24. Thanks Ernesto

It's hard to see so many Young Marines Die. I feel for the Iraqis as well.

[atreides1]

29. I Served Too

I was in the US Army for 13 years, all active duty. I took the same oath to defend this country and to defend the US Constitution, in that same oath I swore allegiance and true faith to that document.

I don't recall giving my allegiance to a man who sits in an oval office, do you? I do remember saying that I would follow his orders and the orders of the officers appointed above me, but the way I look at it when that man and those officers spit on the very document that I did swear alligiance to, that I swore to defend against enemies both foreign and domestic then I am no longer required to follow the orders of those individuals. That's my take on it.

This kid didn't die protecting his country, unless you can show me exactly when Iraq launched an attack against the US, if that had happened then he would have died protecting his country.

I agree with you on a few things, not all Marines are cold blooded murderers, just like not all soldiers get off on torturing and abusing the Iraqi people. None of us know what this young Marine beleived in, what his life was like, and therefore none of us have the right to pass judgement on this kid.

I disagree about things said here, like the past is the past, if that were true the Catholic church wouldn't be looking at bankruptcy court right now. The problem that the US military has is that it never admits to mistakes that it has made, not in the past and not in the present either. Until this country can look at the descendents of those that we have murdered, robbed, raped, and enslaved, and apologize for what was done, we can never understand.

Let this Marine rest in peace, and let us direct our anger at those who sent him and over 900 other US military perssonel to their deaths, along with the thousands of Afghans and Iraqis. That is where our anger needs to be directed.

As for the Mexican government apologizing, I say no. It would seem that whoever was responsible for coordination of this service, screwed the pooch. So I say until such time that someone can show that this was allowed by the proper authorities, and that means paperwork, not some clowns word, until that is done then I say Mexico does not have to apologize for anything.

And from a soldier to a marine who lost his life, safe journey kid,
I'll see you on the other side one day.

[greblc]

32. Nicely Put

I agree with Some of what you've said. I think more than any thing the Mexican government should apologize as a courtesy to the Marines family.
We should focus on the "Rich F@cks " as one post labeled them. The ones who sent him there. One of the few civilities war is that we bury and honor
our dead .Enemy and brother alike. I doesn't seem too much too ask of Mexico
to allow this Marine to be layed to rest as was wished.

[atreides1]

43. I Agree With a Codicil

I will agree with you that the Mexican government should apologize to the family, but not to the US government.

[Ernesto]

23. My error

[puerco-bellies]

18. I agree with greblc about the individual marine

Once you separate the individual from the group we are all some mother's son or daughter. The ceremony was for an individual, not the historical baggage of the U.S. and Mexico.

The on scene commander of the Mexican troops, while right in exerting his authority over sovereign Mexican territory, was wrong to not allow the Marines to honor their brother in arms in his (the dead marine's) chosen way.

Now that being said, you have to forgive those in the U.S. Navy's sister service for their sensitivity, their just emotional that way.

Go Navy!

[greblc]

25. Thanks

[burrowowl]

40. May the Marine rest in peace

However a post from the Plame thread 3 may shed a little light as to why US Marines with guns (thought) symbolic, brings up memories. My Father's generation and their children have rather strong memories and real experience.

Pallas180 (1000+ posts) Wed Jul-07-04 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
152. How the US Marines were used by Corporations in the 20th Century



In 70 years nothing has changed. Guess what? We have always been warmongering colonialists. It's just that we the American people didn't know it and apparently all of us here on DU still don't. How naive we are.

US Marine Corps Major-General Butler
is a man who won America's highest military award for bravery (the Congressional Medal of Honor) twice. His style of warfare was unusual not only for his personal courage, but for the energy he put into avoiding bloodshed when it was possible to achieve his aims in other ways. Not surprisingly, this engendered a remarkable loyalty among the men who served under him - and that loyalty was why certain men (in 1934)asked Butler to lead a military attack of 500,000 men on Washington DC, with the goal of capturing President Roosevelt (to which he replied he would gather 500,000 men to fight them)

but he is most famous for revealing, in his book, " War Is A Racket" how the United States Marines were used by the Corporations:

I helped make Mexico and especially

Tampico safe for American oil interests

in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba

a decent place for the National City

Bank boys to collect revenues in. I

helped in the raping of half-a-dozen

Central American republics for the benefit

of Wall Street. The record of racketeering

is long. I helped purify

Nicaragua for the international banking

house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I

brought light to the Dominican Republic

for American sugar interests in 1916.

I helped make Honduras `right' for

American fruit companies in 1903. In

China in 1927 I helped see to it that

Standard Oil went its way unmolested

... Looking back on it, I felt I might

have given Al Capone a few hints. The

best he could do was to operate this

racket in three city districts. We

Marines operated on three continents.

In his book War Is A Racket, Butler argued for a powerful navy, but one prohibited from travelling more than 200 miles from the US coastline. Military aircraft could travel no more than 500 miles from the US coast and the army would be prohibited from leaving the United States altogether. Butler also proposed that all workers in defence industries, from the lowest labourer to the highest executive, be limited to `thirty dollars a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get'. He also proposed that a declaration of war should be passed by a plebiscite in which only those subject to conscription would be eligible to vote.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/...

Butler was a REAL Marine.

[Voice_of_Europe]

41. Imagine the other way around...

Imagine a mexican wedding with gun wielding bandidos who cheer by firing their guns in the air...

I'm pretty sure that the US authorities wouldn't have that!

[geek tragedy]

44. Lovely stereotyping.

Why not throw in references to tacos and vegetable picking while you're at it?

[struggle4progress]

45. Mexico apologizes for disrupting funeral of U-S Marine

<snip>
Mexican troops disrupted the funeral for Lance Corporal Juan Lopez on Sunday. Lopez had emigrated from Mexico and was being buried in his hometown.

Mexican soldiers blocked two Marines who were carrying ceremonial rifles to the funeral. That led to a blistering letter from U-S Ambassador Tony Garza, who said Mexico should've honored a fallen hero, especially one of its own sons.

A Mexican official says he's sorry for the disruption, but Mexico's soldiers "had an obligation" to ensure the law wasn't being violated.

The Marines had already been refused a request for a traditional 21-gun salute. Mexican authorities said foreign soldiers could not bear arms on their soil.

http://www.wkrn.com/Global/story.asp?S=2006245&nav=1ugFOXhG