Holy See (the Vatican) Posts 3rd Straight Annual Deficit

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=56494

>snip
The year's loss was 29.1% less than the previous year, 9.56 million euros ($11.8 million) compared with 13.5 million euros ($16.6 million) in 2002, as revealed in a statement of the Council of Cardinals for the Study of the Holy See's Organizational and Economic Problems, which met Tuesday.

The note explains that the Holy See's accounts for 2003 showed revenues of 203 million euros ($251 million) and net expenses of 213 million euros ($263 million).

The Holy See does not generate its own income, with the exception of donations from dioceses, congregations, orders and faithful worldwide.

On the contrary, its operations generate only expenses. A total of 2,674 people work in the Roman Curia, of whom 755 are ecclesiastics, 344 religious, and 1,575 lay people. There are some 1,000 retirees.
>snip

[Khephra]

1. When I'm in debt and have no other way out

I usually sell something of mine that I don't use. Maybe the Vatican has something lying around that they could sell?

Nah, they love their gold too much to sell it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

2. Because they had operational deficits does not mean they are in debt

they just spent more than they took in.

They have plenty of loot.

[Crowdance]

3. Need a new marketing plan

There's stiff competition in the misogyny, authoritarianism and fear marketplace.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

4. Also in the Love, Forgiveness and Mystic contemplation of God market

Which is why I am a paying Catholic customer

[Merlin]

5. Especially in the Male Octogenarian, Authoritarian ArchConservative Field.

As in a man filled with such delusion he believes he is actually God's spokesman, believes he is actually Infallible, and believes he is so indispensible he must labor on though he can no longer even hold his head up or speak clearly.

This is a church in deep, deep trouble.

There are 27,000 parishes in America WITH NO PRIEST! Think about it! And The Vatican is oblivious to it. This guy's successor will be just as dense as he is.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

6. You exhibit a poor understanding.

1 - Your feeling that he is delusional about being God's spokesman is a belief of yours as it is a belief of the Pope's that he is - neither of these are facts.

2 - Catholic doctrine does not claim that any person is infallible (quite the contrary) however the doctrine of papal infallibility relates only to the pope in his role as teacher of the faith. When he is speaking from the throne of St Peter on matters of doctrine - that is where infallibility comes into play.

3 - I do not think he believes he is indispensible - his mind is very sharp and clear as many people attest. His body is racked with disease but his faith and devotion keep him going. I admire him for that - you mock him for it.

4 - There is a huge lack of priests world wide and if you think that the Vatican is oblivious to this you are very deeply misguided.

5 - The pope is one of the most intelligent men of our day - you disagree with his beliefs and ideas - that does not make him dense.

[Merlin]

7. Perhaps you have permitted your brain to be thoroughly washed.

1 - I have no idea what you said in your response here. This Pope believes he alone can discern the thinking of the Creator of the Universe. Such arrogance borders on the insane.

2 - You have warped the claim of PI to diminish its significance. How convenient of you. The Pope relies upon this pompous, insolent, preposterous arrogation of human in-errancy to enshroud ALL of his declarations. Funny how it wasn't until 1859 that the then Pope discovered he was "infallible". It is farce beyond belief!

3 - Oh, please! In ANY OTHER FIELD (except perhaps other dictators like Castro) a person would have the humility and common sense to step aside and permit a younger, more in touch, more agile, more lucid, more energetic person take over. But not these popes. No way. Your excuses belie an instinct for buying into bullshit.

4 - If the Vatican were RATIONAL as well as NON-OBLIVIOUS to this acute problem, then it would at least CONSIDER the possibility that perhaps the proscription on marriage -- a 4th century add-on to church strictures NEVER PRESCRIBED BY JESUS -- is a ludicrous anachronistic fallacy. Not only does it keep good people out of the priesthood, it actually attracts the delusional and maladjusted. Further, it keeps priests out of touch with the real world and thus damages their capacity to counsel their faithful.

5 - There is utterly NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that this man is of superior intelligence. His strength is in his political skills, which is true of all popes. His judgment is clearly irrational. He has demonstrated an utter contempt for rational thought and enlightened ideas. He is not even CLOSE to the wisdom and brilliance exhibited by John XXIII.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

8. You are furthering my belief that you simply hate the church and thats it

1 - show me some evidence that this pope feels that "he alone can discern the thinking of the Creator of the Universe". That's just foolishness

2 - I haven't warped the claim of PI at all. Where does it say the pope is infallible? It does say "2051 The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed." As I said it did.

3 - If the pope feels that he has all his rational capacities why should he step down? Beacause you think he should because you disagree with him so vehemently? I don't see where his physical health should stand in the way of his mind. But I don't have such utter contempt of the man as you do. I don't agree with him on many issues but I do admire him.

4 - I will concede that the church's claim that priests can't marry is one that I don't fully grasp. They've never given me a reason that I buy. However I know several celibate priests who are franciscan friars and I will say that they do a DAMN FINE JOB OF COUNSELING THEIR FAITHFUL. The concept that celibate people are somehow "maladjusted" is a foolish one. No one goes around saying those Buddhist Monks or those Hindu Monks are insane because they're celibate. This seems to be a specificly anti-catholic mindset and froths people up into a lather which I just don't get.

5 - I will agree that he is no John XXIII but he has written volumes of well thought out theology and many many intelligent letters. So I'd like to see some evidence that he is not intelligent other than the excuse that you disagree with him.

Personally, Merlin I don't want this to be a fight. I value people and I value other points of view so please don't take this stuff personally.

[Merlin]

9. You probably also think Michael Moore hates America.

But I'm just rooting for the church to come to its senses.

As to your points:

1 - The evidence is in every word that comes out of his (or Ratzinger's) typewriter. He continuously proclaims from on high the right wing dogma favored by the vapid, dried-up, sterile, inbred thinkers constituting the college of cardinals and the Vatican mandated theological orthodoxy. There is utterly no attempt even to consider the arguments of more enlightened thinkers in these more enlightened times. He merely PROCLAIMS. His word is LAW. HE ALONE DECIDES. To hell with everybody else's views! What more evidence of megalomaniacal delusion do you need? !

2 - "Where does it say the Pope is infallible?" ARE YOU SERIOUS? It says it right in the words that follow your question. Further it clearly implies that all doctrine proceeding therefrom and emanating from the pontiff is sacrosanct. That's the essense of the claim that the Pope CAN NOT BE WRONG. You can't seriously be asking these questions, can you?

3 - Why should he step down? For God's sake look at him!. He's a joke. Of course one doesn't ridicule the elderly who have such conditions UNLESS the elderly naively believe themselve fully functional as a more healthy person. Having said that, if you want to get a laugh at a party, say you're going to imitate the pope. Now close your eyes, drop you head limply to your chest and wobble it around slightly while you mumble. It is outrageous that he does not step aside. You and the rest of the faithful are so conditioned to treating these mere men in magic robes as godlike that you cannot apply to them the same standards you would to people in any other walk of life. You have such a need to believe in fantasies that you buy into the nonsense that this man is morally and intellectually superior. Has he done some good during his reign? Yes, of course. Good God, anybody with his kind of power and any kind of decency at all cannot help but do SOME good. Could somebody else have done much more good? ABSOLUTELY. Should he have retired long ago? IS THERE ANY DOUBT? Tell me one other profession where his lameness and incapacity would be tolerated. Just one!

4 - So, you "just don't get" how celibate priests may not fully relate to a real world in which 99.999% of the people are non-celibate? And you think "The concept that celibate people are somehow 'maladjusted' is a foolish one." I don't think more need be said than simply to quote you. If only you were able objectively to hear your own words. (I do notice you have a penchant for believing the subjective opinions of "holy men" when they make claims for their own righteousness. I suppose you also therefore would have believed Thomas Torquemada's insistence on his own holiness and human decency, as he raised his ax to the umpteenth Jew's throat.

5 - His volumes of "well thought out theology" are simply ideology masquerading as thought. We get it all the time from the Neocons in this country. We got it plentifully from Kremlin apparatchiks during the cold war. It takes very little intelligence to prattle extrapolations of ideological theory. It takes great intelligence to grasp where ones inculcated beliefs may actually be in error. THAT is what moves the world forward. Not continuously reciting the same tired dogma and simply applying it to new situations.

Look, I don't want to fight either. To the extent this is "personal" on my part, it's because I've discovered no other way to jar intelligent people like you into taking the blinders off so they can actually think clearly. One must actually suspend one's ardent belief system so one can see things objectively.

I'm a Catholic, too. I've been through all nine yards of indoctrination.

The church is full of good people with good intentions. But most of these same people believe in magic, too, and that is their failing. They, as a consequence, fail to apply the rigors of logic that the God of the Universe intended for us to apply (by blessing us with such a God-like capacity in the first place) when thinking through problems here on earth. Just THINK of the consequences.
--Literally hundreds of cases of sexual abuse obviously aggravated by the celibacy rule; cases which are bankrupting diocese across the country.
--Tens of millions of fallen away Catholics.
--Continued fodder--in the absurd rulings of the church on the role of women--for continuation of the ancient regime of discriminating against women.
--Insisting upon NOT USING BIRTH CONTROL!!! while at the same time railing against abortion.
--A tragic history of inspiring hatred for Jews and Muslims; hatreds which have culminated in literally hundreds of thousands of deaths through papal inspired purges over the centuries. (Oh, yes, they're "sorry" now. But not sorry enough to rethink their equally obstinate, hate-inducing views on other things, like homosexuality and liberalism, now.
--And on, and on, and on...

Tragically, little of the church's influence goes to actually influencing events in the way Jesus taught. The church is much more hung up on sexuality--NEVER a subject of Jesus teachings--than it is on improving the lot of the poor. Just think what things would be like if the Pope actually INSISTED that the church help improve the economic conditions of the poor throughout Latin America where it has such influence--not with words alone, but with a real campaign. But it is too afraid of offending the powerful. Think of what the world would be like if the Pope actually HELD BUSH ACCOUNTABLE for the actions in Iraq, rather than mumbling an imperceptible criticism of him, but issuing loud proclamations against Catholics who conscientously oppose laws against abortion.

Go ahead and have the last word. I'd love to continue the dialogue, but we've probably beaten this horse to a faretheewell (as they say)!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

10. I give you the last word. Very eloquently said.

I am more open minded than these posts suggest. I don't trust JP II farther than I can throw him I just get very defensive against the staunch anti-catholic bias here.

My draw to catholicism is the mystical aspect of it and I look to Jesus more than the Pope.
I take back my earlier statement that you misunderstand. You have a strong grasp on the situation.

I must also admit that I love a good debate and you are definately a good debater :toast:.

So peace be with you my friend. Your points are not lost on me!

BTW - do you really think I believe that Michael Moore hates America? That was a low blow! :)

[Merlin]

11. Thankyou. You are truly a gentleperson and a scholar.

When I said you probably "believe that Michael Moore hates America" I was referring to your accusation that I hate the church. I was simply trying to make the point that to be highly critical of something is not necessarily to hate it. Indeed it is often an indication of great love.

It is my fervent wish that that the church will somehow permit herself to move toward more enlightened thinking. Every time that has happened in the past, the Pope leading it winds up dying. I don't see how it can come about in the near future, given the political mix in the collegium. But change is raising its head and real-world circumstances are threatening to impose clear-minded thinking upon the scions of Vatican city.

Best regards to you, Chavez!