Coshocton couple say they were evicted over Witchcraft

[mongo]

By ANDREW HIRSCH
Gannett News Service

NEWCOMERSTOWN -- Jessica and Shane Bradford were expecting a baby. They were not expecting an eviction notice -- and certainly not for witchcraft.

According to Jessica Bradford, the notice was served June 19, on the Orange Street home, and she later spoke with James Skelton, A&B Rentals LLC's attorney.

Jessica Bradford said Skelton claimed that if she really wanted a reason for the eviction notice, it was because of the practice of witchcraft.

<snip>

Skelton said witchcraft is not, to his knowledge, a constitutionally protected religion.

The Bradfords said they will explore possible action through the Legal Aid agency once Shane has finished his two-week obligation with the National Guard.

Full article: http://www.zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/news/stories/20040709/localnews/807283.html


Just in case you wanted to get in touch with Skelton, here is his contact info:

Skelton James R Atty
309 Main St
Coshocton, OH 43812-1510
Phone: [phone]


I think this guy is also the law director (city prosecutor) for the city of Coshocton.

[Stuckinthebush]

1. Umm...all religions are protected

That is what America is about. Freedom of religion and thought.

I wish more people were Wiccan. We would have a much better world in which to live.

[mongo]

5. I feel more isolated every day

I must be from another planet, 'cause there's no intelligent life down here!

Blessed be.

[Beaverhausen]

2. The wiccan religion is actually accepted by the US Military

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm

[AndyTiedye]

14. Only if W Hasn't Gotten Around to Getting that Changed

"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."
-- George W. Bush to ABCNEWS, June, 1999

[Walt Starr]

3. Pretty typical behavior on the part of the ignorant and bigotted

It seems few people realize that ALL religions are constitutionally protected.

[Toucano]

4. I've dealt with Skelton.

He's has a remarkably dilapidated legal mind, as witnessed by his advising a client based on "to his knowledge" facts.

Open a book, jerk!

[mongo]

6. Is he a dem or repub?

Just curoius. I know that here in Zanesville, the law director is a dem, but that didn't keep him from threatening to take me to court over my store - when he didn't have a leg to stand on.

Maybe I need to open a store in Coshocton....

[Toucano]

17. May as well stay in Zanesville

Skelton is a Dem, too. Or I should say DINO.

I guess I don't have a problem with his politics, really. James just strikes me as a slacker, lazy brained, daddy-put-me-here person.

Who does that remind me of?

Edit to add:

Interesting story from last spring that involves Skelton. He isn't wrong in this one, but he implies that a person can be threatened by the mere presence of an animal.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=8143040&BRD=1996&PAG=461&dept_id=459492&rfi=6

[Mari333]

7. Wicca is a religion protected by Federal Law.

These people have a case, if they choose to pursue it.

[mongo]

8. There is disagreement on the term of the lease.

I doubt if they would have been evicted if they weren't on month to month. Even the most idoitic attorny wouldn't evict someone with a lease.

So as far as the reason for the eviction, it comes down to he said, she said, and since they are most likely on a month to month, they will be up shit creek.

At least these folks found somewhere nice to live.

I have some wiccan friends in Newcommerstown. I think I'll send the welcome wagon.

[hightime]

9. What was it, month to month or a yearly lease?

The article gives that very little attention whereas it has major legal effects.

[DBoon]

10. Couldn't they just turn Skelton into a toad?

No wait - he already is one.

Sorry, won't work.

PS. Yes, I know Wiccans don't really go around turning people into toads (or riding broomsticks either).

[aneerkoinos]

11. Wiccan?

Not all witches are wicca, in fact most are not. And not all wiccans practice witchcraft, in fact most don't. The article does not mention Wicca.

Witchraft is not a religion, it is a wide variety of spiritual and other practises. Terry Pratchet's 'headology' is a good word. :)

But anyhow, this kind of Xian bigotry should not be tolerated...

[Q3JR4]

12. If these people were Xians,

there would be such an uproar.

This is what happens when the wall between church and state is allowed to crumble.

[Technowitch]

13. Bigotry against Wiccans and Pagans is common

I've run into this sort of thing frequently in my adult life. Think about it: Could a practicing Wiccan get elected to Congress?

Real story: My spouse was once up for a security clearance, and part of that always involves an interview. She'd been asked about her religious beliefs and she was honest. The guy asked her, "Do you do animal sacrifices?"

She replied, "No, that's one of the many perversions of your Christian faith, just as Satan worship is. We revere life, we don't take it."

To many of these Christian types, we're not just wrong in our beliefs, they see us as actively evil and a danger to society.

-Technowitch
"Witch since 1981"

[toddaa]

15. Somebody check the BAR

This Skelton character doesn't sound like much of an attorney to me. A&B Rentals needs to start shopping for some new representation. Currently, they're represented by a moron (moran?).

[Name removed]

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[Maeve]

18. Actually, parts of Ohio are quite accepting

I've seen "Blessed Be" and other Wiccan stickers on cars here in the suburbs of Columbus and there was a Pagan Nation contingent in the Short North 4th of July parade. Plus a few shops and a fair number of neo-pagans at the Dublin Irish Festival.

I don't know of any burnings in the US, although there were hangings and one pressing to death in Salem.

[Merlin]

25. Being a Wiccan is NOT the same thing as being a "Witch"

Wiccanism--as I understand it--espouses principals and beliefs which have a legitimate spiritual component. There is no dark aspect to it, only a Pagan aspect.

Christians confuse Paganism with satan worship. That's a result of deliberate Christian indoctrination against Paganism left over from the 1st and 2nd centuries when Christianity competed against Paganism.

But Pagans, like the Druids, were (are) generally highly spiritual people, and their religions were (are) very similar to those practiced by native Americans.

Proclaiming oneself a "Witch" however, is something quite different. Given the cultural traditions ALL OF US ARE ALL TOO FAMILIAR WITH, being a "Witch" implies practicing rituals designed to harm or kill others. In the eyes of most, me included, it has little redeeming social value.

[Name removed]

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[Walt Starr]

48. Again, you demostrate religious bigotry

As you have done to me, I reflect it back to thee by the rule of three.

As I do will, so mote it be.

May The Goddess, from whom all things proceed, have mercy upon you.

[Maeve]

34. Hmmm....the few self-proclaimed "witches" I've met were Wiccan

Or a variation thereof...and sometimes like to use the term for the shock value (except the "water witches", a different class of folk altogether and used to be fairly common in rural Ohio, but I digress...)

Personally, I don't know many folks who take that old idea of evil witches seriously and I am from the rural part of Ohio (and a Christian). Folks who would dismiss them as flakes and left-over hippies, but not real evil types. A self-proclaimed Satanist would be a different critter altogether.

(Apologies to Walt and others who follow the "witch" path--not denigrating, just reporting)

[Walt Starr]

36. I wear the TITLE proudly!

It means I am a Wiccan High Priest in the tradition I practice.

I am a Witch and I am PROUD OF IT! I WILL NOT RETURN TO THE BROOMCLOSET!!!!

It took me more than a decade to get out of the Broomcloset!

[Merlin]

47. Gosh, thanks for telling us, Walt. We might never have known otherwise.

:evilgrin:

[Merlin]

45. You're exactly right. They "like to use the term for the shock value"

Well, this is the exact result you get when you deliberately intend to shock the people in your community.

As far as people not particularly caring, I think you misread them entirely. I guarantee you that there is a deep, deep undercurrent of concern throughout Ohio in particular and the nation generally about "evil worship" and in particular the influencing of children.

I have always thought such concerns were bizzarre. But if I still lived in rural Ohio, and I had kids, and I knew the family down the street were into "Witchcraft", I'd be damned concerned. I can't imagine any parents anywhere who wouldn't be.

Finally, as far as the fact that some witches are Wiccans, that may be true. But Wiccans are not necessarily -- or even predominately -- witches.

[Maeve]

62. If they lived down the street, I'd find out what they meant first

The woman in the article talks of "lighting candles"--nothing there to assume the worst. Probably Wiccan. Besides, if they are actually harming folks, there are laws to deal with that.

As I've said, I've met a few self-proclaimed "witches" and they've been okay folks. (And I've got four kids, none of whom would take the idea of spell-casters too seriously and would consider "evil-worshippers" just creepy and weird. We've taught them that good is stronger than evil in spiritual power.)

[Merlin]

72. YOU might. But most Americans would not.

Most would take them at face value.

Come ON. You know that now, don't you, Maeve?

[Walt Starr]

76. So, you support religious bigotry

why am I not surprised?

:eyes:

[Maeve]

77. No, I just disagree with you

And with your specific use of the words "Wiccan" and "Witchcraft". You are not using them as they are generally understood, altho they may have those meanings within a sub-set of people. In general usage, the two are too aligned to seperate out that way.
Try this website:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_pott3.htm

[aneerkoinos]

55. ditto

"Being a Wiccan is NOT the same thing as being a "Witch"

That's about the only thing I agree with, see my post earlier. You are also mostly right about todays Wiccanism, which seeks larger social acceptance, that they usually denounce all left hand path stuff, even though (AFAIK) Gardnerian Wiccanism had also its darker side.

"Proclaiming oneself a "Witch" however, is something quite different. Given the cultural traditions ALL OF US ARE ALL TOO FAMILIAR WITH, being a "Witch" implies practicing rituals designed to harm or kill others. In the eyes of most, me included, it has little redeeming social value."

This, however, is total bull. Witches practise both left and right hand path and everything between. Harming others has nothing to do with that, it is just stupid and turns against the harm doer, perhaps not threefold ;), but anyway I can attest it's a basic law of nature. In my culture (as in Native American cultures)witches/shamans/medicine men were respected healers, and there are still many around.

Also, the dark side - that is part of all of us - should not be rejected. There is no light without darkness and vice versa, it is not wisdom to give in to the fear of darkness and stay an ignorant half a man who stays slave to his fear.

[Walt Starr]

61. Folks at this site would not agree

http://www.witchvox.com

AND, they are aware of ramapnt religious bigotry at DU too:

http://www.witchvox.com/wren/wn_detail.html?id=10377

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Dhalgren]

20. Amen! Amen! Amen!

I applaud anyone with the courage of their confictions! If this isn't a free nation under law, then it should be exposed for what it is - and bravery by individuals like this is what it will take!

[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

22. Yep

With attitude like yours, any gay coming out of closet and black man going to "wrong place" "deserved it" and would still be "deserving it" until Kingdom come.

It takes courage and compassion to free our minds and the society of prejudices and bigotry. Your post shows total lack of such courage and compassion.

[Name removed]

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[aneerkoinos]

29. Heh

With all respect, whatever we think of the person flaming this discussion, there's no need to openly declare it in such impolite way.

BTW my impression is that wiccans are just as easily aggravated as any other religious types. And occasionally I too like to aggravate, and to prove that, here's a link: http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/ ;)

[Merlin]

Some prejudices and bigotry are legitimate.

Or do you champion child molesters and cannibals?

And where in the world do you equate being gay or being black with being a WITCH! What kind of weed are you smoking?

Now maybe--just maybe--witchery or witchcraft or witchdom or whatever--has developed over the intervening centuries some deep abiding spiritual basis which is so compelling those who "practice" it are drawn inexorably toward it.

MAYBE. BUT I FUCKIN DOUBT IT.

Witchcraft is nothing but sorcery, voodoo, bullshit spell-casting and evil worshipping.

People can believe whatever they like. But others don't have to accept those beliefs as normal, healthy, conventional or socially acceptable.

[Name removed]

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[kimchi]

43. Why are you comparing us to child molesters and cannibals?

Your post is blatantly intolerant, and out of line.

I never thought I'd see such rubbish on a liberal board.

[aneerkoinos]

71. Cannibals

I take it you have taken part in the Holy Communion? And ate Jesus' flesh and drank his blood - or the priest guy did it for you in the mystery that is - at the most deepest level - a blood sacrifice and a cannibalistic rite?

Of course I believe that all people are equal, and equate also all bigotry, whether it is against gays, blacks, witches, because it is one thing, not many different mental mechanisms. The witches I personally have the honor to know (trad., not Wiccan) are the most wonderfull people. You cherish your Xian bigotry and ignorance against some other forms of spirituality. Fine, it's your loss.

[Merlin]

30. Some prejudices and bigotray are legitimate.

Or do you champion child molesters and cannibals?

And where in the world do you equate being gay or being black with being a WITCH! What kind of weed are you smoking?

Now maybe--just maybe--witchery or witchcraft or witchdom or whatever--has developed over the intervening centuries some deep abiding spiritual basis which is so compelling those who "practice" it are drawn inexorably toward it.

MAYBE. BUT I FUCKIN DOUBT IT.

Witchcraft is nothing but sorcery, voodoo, bullshit spell-casting and evil worshipping.

People can believe whatever they like. But others don't have to accept those beliefs as normal, healthy, conventional or socially acceptable.

[DrWeird]

37. Oh, so now you've got a problem with voodoo?

Jerry Falwell, that you?

[Walt Starr]

46. Yep, and vooDoo, Santeria, and a host of other PAgan religions

are just as valid as Christianity, bigotted morans (sic) who do not wish it to be notwithstanding.

[Name removed]

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[Beaverhausen]

40. You should know better than to piss off the witches

if you believe that they will cast a spell on you.

Merlin - you know not of what you speak. You need to educate yourself more.

[Merlin]

49. I don't believe in witchery. Thank you.

Sorcery, well maybe. Witchery no. They can cast all the spells on me they want.

I think it is you who should read my posts more carefully. Or else find one single sentence in it that is inaccurate.

[Beaverhausen]

53. see your post #30

Witchcraft is nothing but sorcery, voodoo, bullshit spell-casting and evil worshipping.

Nice.

Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

[Merlin]

59. No. You don't read carefully at all.

Yes I said "Witchcraft is nothing but sorcery, voodoo, bullshit spell-casting and evil worshipping."

But, that does not mean I

believe

in these things.

Can you grasp that?

[Walt Starr]

68. Witchcraft is

PRAYER to a WICCAN,

:eyes:

You are now dissing a religious practice the equivalent to YOU PRAYING!

I stand by my charge of religious bigotry!

[Name removed]

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[kimchi]

50. So it is okay to discriminate based on religion, then.

Especially just because you are ignorant about the world around your little closed mind. Got it.

I guess I'll have to cancel my plans to move out to the country. Wouldn't want to get burned at the stake. Best to stay with my own kind, right? That way I won't have to get what is coming to me just because I'm different.

Your compassion and concern for our safety is duly noted.

[Merlin]

52. If your religion involves worshipping evil and harming others, yes.

When you grow up and have kids of your own you'll understand what I mean. In case you'd like to know now, ask your parents how they'd feel if a family of self-proclaimed "Witches" moved in next door. Ask how they'd feel about you spending time with them.

[Walt Starr]

54. Oh for the love of The Goddess!

You do not have a clue as to how much bigotry you are espousing!

[Name removed]

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[Beaverhausen]

58. where is this worshipping evil coming from?

why do you think wiccans worship evil?

[Merlin]

66. For the last time WICCANS ARE NOT THE SAME AS WITCHES

Wiccanism, as I've said before, has a genuine, spiritual basis. It is on a par with Paganism.

Paganism is derided and feared by Christians because the Catholic church deliberately demonized Pagans during the 1st and 2nd centuries when it was in competition with Pagan religions. (You can tell from this that religous superstition survives for millenia.)

Pagan religions worship nature and all of its attributes, not unlike the legitimate and beautiful beliefs of native Americans.

Witchcraft, however, is something different. In western culture, Witches are those who conjure up evil spells on others, develop poison potions, and generally advance a belief in the power and legitimacy of evil.

Surely you haven't noticed this yourself, have you?

[Beaverhausen]

70. Merlin - where are you getting your info on witchcraft?

seriously - I want to know. Because I am and I know many witches.

None of us conjure evil spells on anyone- we belive that if we did it would come back to us three times over.

The most "evil" we do is banishment which is trying to get bad people/circustances to get out of our lives.

Most of our spells are for good.

Oh - why do I bother?????:crazy:

[Walt Starr]

75. What pisses me off, is that my example of what he is spewing

was deleted, but the original religious bigotry post stands!

[Merlin]

83. I can be a Catholic but call myself a Loon. That doesn't make me a Loon.

Get it?

As far as "where are you getting your info on witchcraft?"

How 'bout from the godam dictionary:

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

witch

n. A soothsayer. One who practices the black art, or magic; one regarded as possessing supernatural or magical power by compact with an evil spirit, esp. with the Devil; a sorcerer or sorceress; -- now applied chiefly or only to women, but formerly used of men as well.


Wicca

n. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
A group or community of believers or followers of this religion

[Walt Starr]

Read post 82

N/T

[toddaa]

63. Paganism v Witchcraft

I think somebody's been reading too much of the Church's propaganda. Paganism predates Christianity and is the cultural heritage of all Northern Europeans. Wicca, whatever it's merits, is a descendent of these beliefs. To say that Celtic or Norse paganism is not a legitimate religious belief is just as dumb as saying Christianity or Judaism is not a legitimate religious belief.

Witchcraft, on the other hand, is a word that the Church used to label pagan practices. The fact that Wiccans and other pagan groups have tried to reclaim the word for their own does nothing to diminish the fact that they are a legitimate religious group. Bigotry against a pagan is just as wrong as bigotry against a Jew.

[Walt Starr]

65. Bright Blessings, toddaa!

:D

[toddaa]

74. I don't envy you

Not only do people hate your religion, but they deny that you even practice one.

[Walt Starr]

78. Well, we're already past that one as far as the government goes

but apparently, DU supports the religious bigotry that has been spewed here. Fortunately for this couple, they are protected by the constitution adn there is already tons of precedent to back them up.

It's interesting that I posted identically the same post as the religious bigot on this thread, replacing the word "Witch" with the word "Jew" and my post gets deleted while the original religious bigotry post stands.

Here I am donating to a site that supports religious bigotry against me. I guess I know how I'll respond come the next fund raising drive.

[Merlin]

69. Wiccans are NOT the same as Witches. You need to read more.

Wiccanism, as I've said before, has a genuine, spiritual basis. It is on a par with Paganism.

Paganism is derided and feared by Christians because the Catholic church deliberately demonized Pagans during the 1st and 2nd centuries when it was in competition with Pagan religions. (You can tell from this that religous superstition survives for millenia.)

Pagan religions worship nature and all of its attributes, not unlike the legitimate and beautiful beliefs of native Americans.

Witchcraft, however, is something different. In western culture, Witches are those who conjure up evil spells on others, develop poison potions, and generally advance a belief in the power and legitimacy of evil.

If a person chooses to call itself a "Witch" they deliberately identify themselves as one who believes in Witchcraft -- as that term is understood in western civilization.

Sorry, that's just the way life works.

[Name removed]

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[Merlin]

80. Read the dictionary, Walt. You're wrong.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

witch

n. A soothsayer. One who practices the black art, or magic; one regarded as possessing supernatural or magical power by compact with an evil spirit, esp. with the Devil; a sorcerer or sorceress; -- now applied chiefly or only to women, but formerly used of men as well.


Wicca

n. A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.
A group or community of believers or followers of this religion

[Name removed]

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[Beaverhausen]

84. Walt, isn't it nice of Merlin to tell us what it is we practice?

and what to call ourselves?

otherwise we never would have known.

[toddaa]

81. Religion 101

I'm probably wasting my time with you, but all religions cast spells (prayers, meditations, chants), imbibe potions (alchemy, communion, peace pipes), and advance a belief in the power of whatever spirit, path, or deity they happen to revere. Again, the word witchcraft is used by those who happen to "hate" the practices of the those that don't cast the right spells or imbibe the right potions. It's called religious bigotry.

[DrWeird]

33. This, coming from a creationist.

nt

[Walt Starr]

51. I will continue to revile you until your bigotted post is removed

And I am waiting to see if this site really supports such religious bigotry

[Merlin]

56. Revile all you like. Hey, why don't you cast an evil spell on me!

I'm shivering in antici..............pation!

[jayfish]

57. This Coming From Someone Who Goes By The Name "Merlin".

How dumbly ironic.

Jay

[Merlin]

60. Yep. Sorcery's my game. Not witchcraft.

Just kidding.

:evilgrin:

[jayfish]

64. Witchcraft, Sorcery, It's All So... Passe.

I prefer death-rays, nano-bots and quantum manipulation (I just now made that up) myself. :tinfoilhat:

Jay

[Kilroy003]

41. Holy Crapola!

There be some testy folkses round' here today.

[Moderator]

85. We're taking a break from this subject.

Our apologies to anyone who wanted to discuss it with civility.