(Catholic) Church probes `perverse' pictures

[leftchick]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1089670220021&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724&tacodalogin=no

VIENNA—The discovery of a vast cache of photos depicting apparent sexual activity between Roman Catholic clerics and student priests has led to resignations and a probe by church officials.

A Catholic church panel in the Sankt Poelten diocese, west of the capital, agreed to the probe yesterday after the respected news magazine Profil reported that as many as 40,000 photos and an undisclosed number of films, including child pornography, were found a year ago on computers at the local seminary.

It published several images purportedly showing priests and seminarians kissing and fondling each other. Others, it said, showed them engaging in orgies and sex games. The child porn had been downloaded from Web sites mostly based in Poland, Profil said.

The seminary's director, the Rev. Ulrich Kuechl, has resigned along with his deputy, Wolfgang Rothe.

[boobooday]

1. Hey! It was just like a fraternity hazing!

No big deal!

Uhhhh, research . . . yeah! That's it! Research into ungodly stuff. Just an experiment . . .

When will people realize that those who try to claim moral authority usually have none?



http://www.wgoeshome.com

[mom cat]

43. Bishop Kurt Krenn, dismissed it as a "childish prank"

I do not have the link but the Metro in boston attribtes this quote to AP.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

2. Excellent - time for another smearing of the entire church!

Go ahead - flame on people!

[Catfight]

3. Bet they are still able to accept and give out communion too.

The whole church should be torn down, starting with the pope. It's a disgrace to humanity and spirituality that they are even allowed to have a church. There is no morality in the church. Temples of Sin is what the church stands for now.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

4. Exactly what i predicted! DU paints with a broad brush when it comes to

the Catholic Church. With everything else its "that's a broad characterization" or something of the like but the CC is fair fucking game to just pump venom out. Think about it - does this mean that thousands and thousands of good clergy are into child porn or was it localized - or do you want to think about this?

[judge_smales]

6. I think this has been an issue in The Church for well over a thousand

years and Rome has done everything in it's power to keep it a secret. No, I don't think that every preist is a pedophile, but I do think that as long as Rome thinks that the problem is just that people know what's happening and that everybody would just shut up things would be fine then the whole Church is indeed fair game. The sickness comes from the top and seeps aaaaalllllllll the way down.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

15. ok

[Beware the Beast Man]

16. THANK YOU< THANK YOU< THANK YOU!!!!!

Chavez, I couldn't agree with you more. Every other freakin' thread I see on here concerning th RCC church, someone has to make some snarky remark about:
1. Priests being pedophile rapists, or

2. The church being a corrupt, sinister organization bent on mind control and preying on the weak.

No denying, I don't think enough is being done about the abuses, and secondly, like any organization run by humankind, there is corruption. But what many seem to forget (or blatantly dis-acknowledge), is that this is the FAITH of many here at DU. Many who are just as tired of the corruption as they are. Many who feel they have nowhere to turn when those in their church decide to use communion as a means of political control. It hurts just as bad to see we have little or no support in this forum.

Again, thanks Chavez for the apologetics.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

18. Alot of people here don't care about other people's faith and its very

black & white to them. The church is evil - period. When I say "Don't you hink its more nuanced than that?" they say "no". So what can you say to that?

[Malva Zebrina]

32. Perhaps there would not have been or would not be such criticism if

the church did not behave so badly and try to cover up the pedophile scandal.

Somehow, facing scandals honestly, coming clean with the flock, and doing everything you can to correct it, including letting people know, so they can protect their children , educate them and warn them, is part of it.

This criticism, and disdain, is not a broad brush, my friend.

That is criticism of the behavior of the hierarchy and the core--the leadership over all, the ones who dictate the rules and regulations to the flock--they tried to cover it up--and for years.

Last time I looked Catholics are all under that tent--some are more cafeteria than others, but nevertheless, unless they pledge to the Pope certain powers, they are simply reinventing the religion.

and, unlike a democracy, there is no voting for a Pope so people can change what has become corrupt as we will do in Novemeber to Bush. Nope--you got the guy for life and you did not even elect him . He could have protected the children, you know.



May as well call it something else, other than Catholic then, if one wishes to distance themself from the very core of the church.

So no broad brush on that one--the buck stops succinctly and clearly at the Vatican.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. That is a very specific charge, and you're right about that, my friend

I am referring to the people who just dismiss the church as a nefarious agency or those that look only at the pedophile scandal and refuse to look at the good that the church does.

[atreides1]

35. Only Those Who Are Guilty, And Those Who Helped Them Should Be Punished

Those responsible for committing the acts and the church authorities who permitted it to go on for so long are the ones who are nefarious and evil and should be punished.

But, as the old saying goes "those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". While the pedophile and now a sex scandal have yet to be cleared up, some Bishops in this country are calling for those who support a pro-choice agenda to be denied communion, a RC lawyer is trying to bring heresy charges against John Kerry, but not against all
RC who believe in the same thing. It's confusing, and shows hypocrisy
at the least.

I'm a former Catholic, I left the church for personal reasons, and after meeting my wife joined the Episcopalian Church.

The church should first of strip all priests that have been convicted of child molestation of their offices, and excommunicate them for what they did. Then all those in positions of authority who assisted them should be removed from the priesthood, and all of the parents that did nothing after finding out, they should be punished by the church and if possible by law enforcement as well, for neglect.

We should not paint the entire church with that broad brush that was mentioned, but those in the laity need to make sure that those who did commit these crimes are punished within the fullest extent of both church and secular law. Why the laity you ask, because history has shown that the church authorities don't seem to be able to do the job required of them.

[NashVegas]

44. re: Not Caring About People's Faith

Faith in what, exactly?

If Rome cared about peoples' faith, it wouldn't have worked as hard to make so many of us believe it necessary to repress our most basic human urges or burn in hell, while at the same time doing everything it could to repress the knowledge that its own representatives couldn't keep to these standards.

I have first-hand knowledge of these priests who not only couldn't keep to the standard, but violated criminal laws regarding sexual acts with pre-pubescent children. I also have first-hand knowledge of the fear of lawsuits that so overwhelms church administration, that people who report incidents are instantly met with suspicion - what a great way to care for someone's faith.

Those of us who've had our blinders ripped off mercilessly are under no obligation to tip-toe around anyone's faith in the RC Church, or for that matter, any institution that appoints itself the keeper of some moral code.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

56. Well, considering this has been going on since Martin Luther's

time, as it was one of his main complaints against the unmarried clergy -- that it aided pederasts -- Dude, this is nothing new.

They just keep covering it up. Over and over again.

How many times do things like this have to be exposed (pardon the pun) all over the world for people to realize this is not just a local problem with one freaky priest?

This, it seems to this devoutly religious Lutheran, is some kind of world-wide conspiracy of silence about this aspect of monastic life. I don't think anyone meant that post to shame you about your faith, but you have to admit, this is getting weirder and weirder.

[DarbyUSMC]

71. What is important? "The Catholic church" or belief in Christ our Savior?

I apologize if any of these points were made before.

Religion is a man made thing, just as denominations including the Roman Catholic church is man made. The real meaning of "church" in the Holy scriptures is the body of believers in Christ. It isn't speaking of a religion riddled with rituals, beliefs and traditions that have nothing to do with having faith in God. Seriously, haven't you ever asked yourself who in their right mind would join the "priesthood," where celibacy is a requirement? It goes against every instinct within human beings. So, consequently, you not only have gay men seeking out the priesthood but also pedophiles. Gay men who are celibate still have a sex drive and will more than likely give in to temptation just as heterosexual men will. The attraction is living, training and for the most part only dealing with men in their personal lives.

Pedophiles are the ruination of young boys. If you look back in history you will find the popes were the most corrupt men in charge of this church which ruled with an iron hand. People actually paid to have their sins forgiven, to have prayers said for the dead, and other absurd indulgences. They were afraid to go against the priest for fear of hell. Now it is the pedophile scandal. I don't know the percentage, but how can anyone be surprised that this is the kind of man who is attracted to an organization where they are surrounded by possible victims and can appear celibate to the congregation without difficulty until he is found out. When people stop putting the pope, cardinals, bishops and priests on a pedestal they will stop being shocked over what has been going on for centuries. Look also at what nuns have done to children. No, of course not all nuns, just as not all priests, are criminals. So many nuns from centuries and up through modern times have no love of children, as Christ told us to love the children and cherish them. (Paraphrased.) There is so much written about this. Frank McCourt goes into it in his best seller "Angela's Ashes".

Where does it all end? It ends when wannabe priests and nuns are psychologically tested before entering the order. This disgrace also ends when, at the first sign of trouble, the offender is sent to a place apart from everyone and put in mandatory counseling. If nothing is certain after this, he must be kept away from anything to do with children. How awful a thought to think that a child who trusts a priest as he trusts his father or a policeman or fireman is betrayed in the worst possible way and for years keeps these things to himself. No, this doesn't make Catholics some sort of pariahs. Yes, there are offenders in other denominations but it just isn't as prevalent as it is with Catholic priests. Put the blame on the tradition of celibacy that was a made up criteria for the priesthood. The Catholic church would have an abundance of candidates if that requirement was deep sixed. Normal men and women would never agree to this no more than they would agree to hit themselves with a hammer twice a day. To what avail? Check out the church history to see when a pope decided that celibacy was

"But the perversity of celibacy was an idea more easily articulated to than enforced on creatures of flesh and blood. After the 4th century Council of Nicaea refused to adopt the rule, it took until the Lateran Council of 1215 to get the whole Catholic Church to agree on priestly celibacy. Priests commonly married up until the 11th century — they still can and do in the Eastern Orthodox Church — but Gregory VII (Hildebrand) brutally enforced celibacy with help from Patarene thugs. The natural result of legislating against human nature is an abundance of unnatural vice and ultimate disrespect for the Church. The modem problems with priestly child molestation occurred in all ages."

RonaldBruceMeyer.com
Ronald Bruce Meyer is a freelance writer

[GinaMaria]

29. Simplistic

catholic apologists not getting enough support here? Have you considered that many here are ex-catholics and for a very good reason? It comes down to a choice. Do you side with those who have little to no power (abused children) or an institution that protects their abusers? I only have so much time and energy to give. I choose to give it to those who have been injured. I choose not to contribute time or money to anyone or anything that harms kids or abuses people's faith.

Do you ever wonder why people stay in abusive relationships? I wonder why people stay in abusive institutions. Is an abusive spouse all bad? Is he or she more nuanced than that? Sure, but what difference does it make? If he or she is abusive why maintain the relationship?

[Beware the Beast Man]

30. I do not consider my faith to be an "abusive relationship"

And no, I haven't given up on the poor. I question the abuse. But I have no intention in fleeing my beliefs. Perhaps you are projecting by calling me or my opinion "simplisitc."


EDIT- Further, those who cry "intolerance" when it comes to religion often turn intolerant themselves.

[GinaMaria]

41. Most people in abusive relationships

would not consider themselves to be in an abusive relationship, but that doesn't mean they are not in one. I'm not surprised you don't see the cc as an abusive institution.

I didn't ask if you had given up on the poor. I'm not sure what your point is here.

I don't know if you question the abuse. The majority of your posts questions the intent of those who have an opinion of the rcc that is opposite of yours.

Every other freakin' thread I see on here concerning th RCC church, someone has to make some snarky remark about:
1. Priests being pedophile rapists, or

2. The church being a corrupt, sinister organization bent on mind control and preying on the weak.

Let me clarify what I meant by simplistic. It wasn't meant about you personally. It was a comment about your assessment of those who disagree with you. See below:

No denying, I don't think enough is being done about the abuses, and secondly, like any organization run by humankind, there is corruption. But what many seem to forget (or blatantly dis-acknowledge), is that this is the FAITH of many here at DU. Many who are just as tired of the corruption as they are. Many who feel they have nowhere to turn when those in their church decide to use communion as a means of political control. It hurts just as bad to see we have little or no support in this forum.

Blatantly dis-acknowledge? That's quite an accusation. Who is exactly is projecting here? What is your point about this being the faith of many at DU? Does that somehow mean that opinions you don't agree with shouldn't be allowed because it's about some people's faith? Time to toughen up your skin. News Flash: There are alot of people who strongly disagree with the rcc, some are even catholics. They are entitled to their opinions just like you. The catholic church is not respected or valued by everyone in the world.

EDIT- Further, those who cry "intolerance" when it comes to religion often turn intolerant themselves.

Pity, you don't see yourself in this statement. Ever heard the expression "Pick up the hand mirror instead of the magnifying glass?"

[Redleg]

48. That's so patronizing and you know it.

EOM

[Beware the Beast Man]

54. Thank you, Redleg

You'd make a more convincing argument, GinaMaria, if you didn't use such a condescending tone near the end. That's just childish.

Anyway, back to my argument. I don't buy the "abused spouse" analogy one bit. That's tantamount to running away from a problem rather than trying to work through it. By comparison, do you see the United States and it's government as an abusive spouse? If so, then why are you still here? Certainly you're aware that our own country has had it's fair share of shames and atrocities as well? But are you fleeing the country? Of course not. You're here on DU with others that hope to take action and shape the outcome of what has been, so far, one of the worst administrations in this country's history.
With that in mind, that's how I feel about the Church. I feel that if enough people in the RCC grumble about all its wrongdoings so far, then hopefully some reforms will come about. For me it's faith, not just some vain membership in a secret club. I believe that most of the Catholic teachings are inherently good (forgiveness, helping the weak, etc). But in no way am I blind to its past (and present) wrongdoings, and by God I hope and pray that the folks at the Vatican get their heads out of their asses and acknowledge what is going on with all the current scandals.

[GinaMaria]

62. Interesting word choice for this thread

'childish'? My statement is a common expression used to break through another's denial or blinders to him or herself.

those who cry "intolerance" when it comes to religion often turn intolerant themselves.

Yes, those that cry that they are victims of religious intolerance are often intolerant of other people's views.

I don't buy the "abused spouse" analogy one bit. That's tantamount to running away from a problem rather than trying to work through it.

That's old school catholic. Don't leave an abusive relationship stay and work through it. How many abused women were told that by priests? Too many unfortunately. What message does that send about values? It makes it pretty clear that marriage even toxic ones are a higher value than a person's safty and well being. You can't change anyone but yourself. You cannot change an abusive partner. You cannot change the relationship. The only one you truly have control over in a situation like that is yourself. You can't change anyone's mind but your own. Sometimes the only way to stop living in an abusive situation is to not live in the abusive situation any more. Get up, walk out. Your choice what you value.

You might not buy the abused spouse analogy but the church certainly uses the analogy of marriage and the church as a bride or spouse. I compare abusive partners to abusive institutions because they operate similarly. People assume similar roles in dysfunctional families as they do in dysfunctional institutions like schools, corporations and churches. If I was married to someone who raped my children, or protected someone who harmed my children, I would say I was in an abusive relationship. I say the same thing about the rcc.

By comparison, do you see the United States and it's government as an abusive spouse?

This is a tough comparison to make. A democratic government that I do exercise some (albiet negligible at times) control over vs. an institution I have no say in is tough to compare but I see where you are going with this. Without revealing too much info. I will start the process of surrendering my US citizenship if things do not change in November. I think this won't be an issue. I have a voice (vote) that hopefully will be be counted.

Because I value democracy, I accept that elections and decisions don't always go the way I would like them. American's chose the current course of action. American's chose events in our history. Right or Wrong, we made that choice by who we elected or didn't elect.

Catholics do not choose how the church is run. They do not make decisions. Decisions are made for them. They are told how it will be. There is no vote. Your opinion does not matter in the rcc. I've walked away like many others because I won't support financially or spiritually child rapists or those who protect them. I apply this accross the board. I do not watch Roman Polanski films or Woody Allen films. I boycott Disney for the same reason. Their movies are inherently good, but so what? They won't get one cent or second of attention from me. I vote with my money. As long as I withold my money from the catholic church they cannot use it to silence another victim or to move a pedophile into another congregation.

You say you are motivated by your faith. Faith in what? Faith in a diety or faith in an institution? Belief in god or a supreme being may or may not be a choice. it's possible that it is something we are either born with or without, however expression of that belief is always a choice. Voting is a choice. Choosing words over action is a choice. But what is the consequence of that choice? What if civil rights leaders had opted for words over actions? Where would we be?

IMO, Grumbling isn't going to accomplish any change in an institution that does not value it's followers opinions or feelings. Grumble away and good luck with all that. As long as you keep showing up and keep putting money in the collection plate, they aren't motivated to change.

If chose not to vote * out of office, but instead felt grumbling about it would change his behavior and the behavior of his admin, that would be laughable. Where's the motivation to change? Grumbling doesn't bring about reform.

[Beware the Beast Man]

65. Faith in a deity. As practiced through the sacraments.

"Old school"?? Hardly. I believe in reproductive rights for women. If a terminally ill person wishes to die, they should be able to choose so with dignity. Homosexual unions and relationships are of no concern, nor consequence to me. I am against war at all costs, even if it is for a just cause. Et cetera, et cetera. There. Let's end it at that. Not to mention you've taken many of my words literally, especially on the whole "grumbling" matter. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time nor space here on DU to type my whole spiritual manifesto. I have to condense my thoughts on the issue, therefore it's pretty easy to use semantics to dismantle my points (as I readily admit to doing to your arguments as well).

So let's call it a draw. I don't expect to change your mind, as I know you don't expect to change mine. If you need me, I'll be in the Lounge. :toast:

[GinaMaria]

67. Faith in a diety

may not be a choice. How it's expressed or practiced is a choice.

Old school was a description of your specific comment about not leaving and sticking it out. The very old school catholic thinking about divorce. It was not a description of you personally or a description of your beliefs as a whole. I don't need your whole spiritual manifesto to have this discussion. Clarifying and defining terms works well in these discussions. As this is the second time something I've posted to you was interpretted as a personal comment, I will keep that in mind when discussing things with you. I hope that will minimize some of the communication problems. Could you meet me half way and not assume I'm making assessments about you personally? That would help.

What I find in these discussions with posters who claim to be catholic is that they acknowledge pedophile priest scandals and express their disagreement with them in mild and understated terms. The effect seems to be 'see I'm against it.' 'I've acknowledged it exists and I'll say 'something more should be done'. But it's not usually stated what 'more' means. Hence the word grumbling, came across as much too mild. What are you activly doing about this? If you stay to change it, what are you doing? Truthfully, your answer to this may not change my mind completely, but I could be swayed.

These mild, borderline apathetic statements (not just yours, speaking in general here) about the abuse by clergy appear to be tactics to relieve the poster of any responsibility or duty in the situation and continue on unquestioningly on his or her way, going to church paying into the collection plate. None that I have seen ever offers real action they are taking or legitimate attempts to put an end to this criminal behavior in their church.

Those who need and needed protection are the victims and their families not the pedophiles. It does come down to a choice. How can both be protected without causing suffering?

Edit: Enjoy the lounge. Sorry I can't join you.

[Beware the Beast Man]

68. Well, if I were a battered spouse,

I'd castrate my SO while he sleeps. That's how I feel about the pedophile problem. So no, I don't feel mild and understated about it.

[GinaMaria]

70. clarification

You would castrate pedophile priests? I'm surprised by your answer as it isn't at all what I expected.

I was really interested in what action you are taking in the church to change things. I hear people say they can't change anything by leaving, so I'm asking the reverse. What are you (not just you individually, but you plural meaning those that make similar statements) changing by staying? My point is that from many catholic posters on DU there are not strong statements made about the church's culpability and criminality in these scandals. There are however strong statements made in defense of the church by these same posters. It comes across as a clear choice on their part, they choose priests over their child victims. From where I'm standing, I'd like to see that same committment to the victims that many catholic posters devote to their defense of the church.

My question to you is, What action are you taking to protect the victims in your church? What steps are you taking to bring about change in policy and treatment of both the victims and the perpetrators? What actions are you taking to prevent future occurances of both abuse of children and the criminal protection of pedophile priest perps?

[GinaMaria]

61. Oh Please

You may not agree with me but don't pretend you know what I think. Making assumptions about what I know or don't know contributes to the discussion in what way?

[Redleg]

63. Okay, maybe you don't know you're being patronizing.

Is that better?

[GinaMaria]

66. if you feel something is patronizing

be an adult and state what it is. Discussion is what discussion boards are all about. If you would rather issue assumptions and accusations, that's your choice. You choices in communication aren't saying anything about me. They are saying something about you.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. I don't guess you've read any of the DU posts about Jews, have you?....

It deosn't matter to me how many Catholic priests are pedophiles...even ONE is a problem, IMHO. Or do you think that I'm picking on the Catholic Church when I say that? What do you think about this issue...do you think the practice of pedophilia is okay?

What pisses me off is that the Catholic Church has known about their global issue of pedophilia for quite some time, and has chosen to deal with some cases while ignoring and/or covering up the vast majority. I am particularly appalled about the internal practice of shifting perpetrators around to other unsuspecting parishes.

There is a major problem within the Catholic Church in regards to this issue...do you really think it's just localized?

[DemBones DemBones]

47. I've NEVER seen a DU post "about Jews" or about the Jewish faith,

and I've been here since the very early days. I've seen posts criticizing Israel's actions or criticizing Zionism, but not Jews or Judaism. DUers get angry about suggestions of anti-Semitism but tolerate the worst slanders against Catholicism -- just read this thread for a few examples!

The actions of a small minority of perverts who've wormed their way into the priesthood, the ministry, the rabbinate, the teaching profession, etc., have tarnished their professions, with the Catholic priesthood thus far being hit the hardest, thanks to media attention. Well-meaning "higher-ups" in ALL religions and professions have engaged in cover-ups to avoid airing dirty laundry that would embarass their church/ synagogue/ school. The crimes of pederast rabbis, ministers, and lay leaders have been hidden, just as have the crimes of priests. Part of this has been leaders trying to protect their particular group of people, part of it is that non-pederasts have been uninformed about the nature of this perversion and believed that pederasts could be reformed, and part of it is that families of victims have often wanted incidents hushed up to protect their child. If there's anything that makes the experience of being molested worse for a child, it's having others know about it (and fearing everyone knows), having to go to doctors and be examined, having to go to the police station (and perhaps to court) to testify about this embarassing thing that was done to you.

Parents have got to educate each of their children to make them safe from sexual predators, and keep close tabs on them, not allowing a child to be alone with adults or older children until they're sure the child is mature enough to resist and report any inappropriate attention. All the efforts to get pederasts out of the priesthood, ministry, rabbinate, teaching, coaching, scouting will fail to protect children if parents don't train their children to refuse to be used sexually. Of course the efforts to keep pederasts away from children must continue, but no one should believe that alone will keep their child safe.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. Ok

:eyes:

[mitchtv]

38. you are painting with a pretty broad brush yourself

DU? that was an individual poster's thoughts, however valid it might or might not be.The church, though its own doing has brought this upon itself.

[Democat]

45. You don't want others to generalize Catholics, but you do it with DUers

Strange.

[leftchick]

52. agreed Democat...strange indeed....

I am a practicing Catholic and I started this thread. I do not generalize about the Catholic faith nor Duers or anyone else. I thought it was an interesting take in the foreign arena on the issues facing the Catholic Church today and how they are dealing (or not!) with it. Nothing more nothing less....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

60. Red Herring

n/t

[doctorbombeigh]

46. Okay... let's think about this.

The secrecy, scamming, scheming, paying off, lying, obstructing justice, transfer rather than prosecution of rapist pedophiles and ALL of it was done by...

wait for it...

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Not by individuals, not as a matter of "local" policy, but as THE policy of THE Catholic Church as a whole.

Deal with reality.

[Bridget Burke]

5. The Scarlet Woman! The Hoor of Babylon!

It's not a new story. Get the "facts" here:

www.ianpaisley.org/toc.asp?loc=rome

[shrike]

7. Sounds like a real legit site to me

No agenda here

[mitchtv]

40. hahahahah the truth from Ian Paisley

let me go out and get a new roll of tinfoil

[Barkley]

58. and give money in the collection plate too ... n/t

[lil-petunia]

8. smear? how dare we?

It is all the fault of those devious, evil, 8 and 10 yrs olds. how dare they wear dresses and shorts, how dare they act so - sexually enticing in front of us? How dare they be physically weak and oh, so able to serve us as we see fit.

Look, we know best. WE tell you what is and is not sin. And if we say that getting our rocks off on a 7yr old is ok, then face it, we have long experiences in this field. 'cause our ear is next to god. Now kneel down and prey with me. And don't you dare sue me. I'll go bankrupt instead.

Yeah. right.

This church fits the RICO statutes to a T. Prior knowledge of wrongdoing, and a great likelihood of more to come. (pardon the term). Moving criminals around to avoid prosecution. Hiding information from police and prosecution. Destroying documents in the face of subpoenas. Complicity in the routine sexual abuse of minors.

To reward a serial criminal like Law with a cushy post in Rome, that just boggles the imagination. This is a criminal organization. Its self-promotion, self-protection and its 50 yr plans (check that out with your local jesuit) to regain and maintain power, shows that it should be eradicated as soon as humanly possible.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

10. Yeah it's as simple as that - very good

Way to look at a nuanced issue in a nuanced way!

[sendero]

12. There was nothing nuanced....

... about how the church leaders handled the "pedophile priest" problem. Nothing nuanced when it was a secret, and nothing nuanced since it was outed.

The church leaders are not worthy of respect, it is as simple as that. Whether you can accept it or not. This is not to say that Catholics are bad people, most of them are as appalled as everyone else, probably moreso. But it will be a long time, a very long time, before the church regains much credibility with people who see how disgracefully they behaved and continue to behave with respect to the issue.

[monobrau]

53. How does it feel to be an apologist for child molesters?

Really, you should step back and think about what you've done today.
What kind of person defends what is obviously a serious systemic failure that has destroyed the lives of thousands of children?
Get your house in order before you come here and criticize ours.
You are truly disgusting.

[SeiowMao]

9. Catholics probably aren't any worse in this area...

than many other religions. They are just in the spot light now. Plus celibacy poses an additional problem.

The cover ups by the top, however are inexcusable. I live in Tucson, AZ and here the church is going to declare bankruptcy so it doesn't have to pay those abused! Now that is true hypocrisy. The church has more money than God!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

11. The diocese have to pay for the care of the clergy as well

those people are getting screwed by the Bishops and their cover ups as well. I cannot rejoice over the failure of diocese.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

17. So that's it? It's a corrupted evil institution? There's no good?

Nothing?

[lil-petunia]

22. what little good it does is

despite the organization, not because of it.

Does the idea of a savior offer sollice and comfort to the needy? Sure.
Does a ritual provide some psychic relief to those who hurt? Sure, but so does a psychiatrist. the church is cheaper.
Does having a made-up history explaining morality and good works (and boy, these guys sure know how to edit history - they are the oldest and finest practitioners of political spin) provide rules for the illiterate, unread, and inexperienced? Sure. But so does an ethical education.


the organization is evil, corrupt, power hungry. It does NOT want and educated flock, for their numerous inconsistancies and errors of fact, science, history, etc are so glaring that the flock would be no more.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

26. So you are totally against the church. Great - there are people here

(and in the world) who get alot of good from the church - A LOT! The church is always overlooked for the charitable work it does - but that goes against the anticatholic bias that is so poplular - especially here at DU.

I find your assessment of the church underwhelming in its simplicity. Just saying its evil and powerhungry and wants an ignorant flock is overlooking the thousands of dedicated and law abiding clergy who do works of mercy and healing every day. But why think about that when its so easy to simply hate them. People would rather hate the church for its past and, yes its present, than acknowledge the large amount of good it does around the world. But many Catholics are used to that, especially in this country.

The KKK was very anti-catholic.

[lil-petunia]

42. perhaps the words I posted

may have the appearance of simplicity, but the hard-learned knowledge behind it is much deeper and more complex, and born from actual hands on experience. No, not as a victim, but in my legal representation of them.

I've been involved in litigation against the church and know first hand just how evil, immoral and amoral the church is when it comes to weighing the rights of a sodomized little girl of 7 and a terrorized boy of 9 vs. the iron curtain raised by the church in order to protect its own. I've seen how the church "has leaks" which destroy critical records rather than turn them over. I've experienced the bullshit that the head of the local churchs raise rather than deal with the fact that they employ and continue to protect serial rapists.

In any other part of our society, serial rapists and child abusers are dealt with harshly. Why should the criminal organization known as the Roman Catholic Church be any different?

What about the church's activities in Ireland? Angola? Scotland? France? Austria? Swaziland? Canada? Mexico? the Philipines? Poland? Russia? Latvia? Bulgaria? South Africa? Kenya? Venezuela? Brazil?

These places harbor serial criminals. The abuses that occured there are just as bad as anything that happened in Boston, probably worse. At some point, the entire organization has to be examined. And when this collection of criminals is examined closely, the widespread abuse and deliberative protective policies become clear. It is church policy to deny, defer, denigrate, declaim, then hide, transfer the rapist, hide documents, and plead separation of church and state. Or immunity from "civil" law because the canonical law does not permit it. Oh yes, what a christian act - blame the child, ostricize the family, threaten and cajole, then cover up, deny, and hide the truth. AS DELIBERATE POLICY!

Shit, that is like a career bank robber claiming immunity because he belongs to the Holy order of robber adventists of the seventh day of theft. "You can't arrest me because my religious order takes precedence."

Bullshit. Am I angry? You bet. THese people - the whole organization - deserves hell on earth.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. Are you condemning all Catholics to hell on earth?

Or just the priests and hierarchy? Either way, you're overreaching and overreacting. There are many good people in the Catholic Church, including good men in the priesthood and hierarchy.

Dealing only with violations and violators of law has perhaps given you an overly negative view of people. The Catholic Church is like the legal profession, having both good and bad people in it. It is, after all, in the business of redemption.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

39. The corruption is not unlike

what we Americans now face with Dumbya and his cronies. The big difference is, we can vote them out of office, Diebold willing.

What can be done about the crooked who dwell among Church's hierarchy and "papal infallability", that will not simply result in the excommunication of progressive Roman Catholics?

[GinaMaria]

25. wasn't Arizona

the place that American catholic pedophile priests were sent after they were 'caught' to be "rehabed"? It was the reason given for high number of child sexual abuse victims in the state. Not surprising that the cc in Arizona is finding a way out of paying damages.

What additional problems does celibacy pose? While the pedophile clergy problem may occur in other religions, the cc has been around a little longer and therefore has had more time. It works out like a Fabarge commercial,

Consider this, it is estimated that 30% of those who are abused as children will identify with their abusers and become abusers themselves. They will repeat the horror they experienced on someone else.

Consider also that pedophiles who abuse, molest, rape children who are strangers to them (unrelated) tend to abuse a greater number. There are pedophiles who can abuse 1000 children in a lifetime. These are real preditors. Let's go with 200 children abused in a lifetime for the example.

We start with one pedophile priest 1500 years ago who abuses 200 children in his lifetime. Next generation or so, we now have 60 (30%) of the victims who abuse 200 children each in their lifetime. 20 years or so later, 12,000 children have been abused and now 3600 former victims who will abuse 200 more children each and so on and so on and so on. A horrific Fabarge commercial. That's how the cc got into this mess. It's a cancer that was ignored and allowed to spread.

[DS1]

19. 40,000 ? At what point would any rational person think

"Hey, I might have a problem here".

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. I wonder what an "undisclosed amount" means?

Lots and lots?

[DS1]

21. It could mean three. I'm not suggesting any reporting on the matter

is fair.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. I am not assuming either (no snotty tone implied in my post)

I assume its alot based on the 40,000 number - that's a hell of alot of porn (if that is what it is).

[gatlingforme]

34. LOL. n/t

[GoddessOfGuinness]

24. I don't doubt that they're probing...

but are they probing the allegations?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. boom tiss

:)

[damnraddem]

28. Oh, the Church will not consider it very important. After all, ...

none of the priests or seminarians got pregnant and had abortions. ;-)

[Hobarticus]

49. Bet they still get to GIVE communion.

[DemBones DemBones]

51. I think you'd lose that bet. There will be a housecleaning. nt

[Tansy_Gold]

55. Replying to many responses because

I read this at work where I couldn't respond, but I did have some things I wanted to say.

I have no love for the Roman Catholic Church. I've seen too many of its bad sides, both the public scandals and some private "sins." I'm kind of in the "nothing shocks me any more" about this institution: its present woes seem to me to be the result not of "a few bad apples" but centuries and centuries of intolerance, greed, misogyny, and hate. That's my opinion, and I hope even the devout Catholics here will grant me the right to that opinion.

Even so, my opinion (or anyone's opinion, for that matter) of THE CHURCH should not be taken as an insult to any individual's FAITH, unless, of course, that person's faith is in The Church, rather than in God or Jesus or something else.

If a person has faith in God, does that faith depend on The Church, regardless which church that may be? Or is it a personal relationship between the person and her/his deity? Can that faith exist without The Church? If not, what does that say about the individual's faith?

IMHO, the Roman Catholic Church, from the Pope on down, is a corrupt organization. While there may indeed be individuals within it who are untainted, I still believe the organization is corrupt. Ken Lay and Andy Fastow and Jeff Skilling and many of the executives at Enron were/are corrupt, and Enron was basically a corrupt organization, but that doesn't mean everyone connected with it was evil.

Just as Enron went bankrupt because it was corrupt and stole from the innocent, so should the Roman Catholic Church be bankrupt financially, as it -- the organization, not necessarily its adherents -- is already morally bankrupt.

Again, this is just my personal take on things. I also believe that a person who belongs to an organization and defends it but does not him or herself follow the organization's regulations is a major hypocrite. I think GLBT Catholics are hypocrites; I think pro-choice Catholics are hypocrites; I think pro-death penalty Catholics are hypocrites. I do not understand why anyone who disagrees with The Church on such basic issues would even want to stay a member? If faith in God and the redemptive power of Jesus is so important, why not find another church where pro-choice and GLBT issues are within the doctrine? Is it because one's faith isn't in God or Jesus, but in the purely human institution of The Church?

I have problems with that. BIG problems.


But then, I have lots of problems with lots of things, and that's why I am



Tansy Gold

[Colin Ex]

57. If I can add my two cents to this shitstorm --

I was raised Catholic, but as of about two years ago I slipped away and pretty much concluded "Really, I think this is bullshit."

BUT.

I owe the Catholic Church (and my mom's method of raising me) quite a bit. My mom is a when-needed volunteer, and co-ordinates both the entire funeral program and food co-op. Her big issue is social justice, which she pretty much planted in me as strongly as she possibly could have. (She accidently raised a socialist, oi.)

When I was growing up, I pretty much ignored the "BABIES BLAH BLAH ABORTION BLAH" bullshit, but I can't really hate these people. Sure, anyone who molests a kid is a douchebag to the max, but I feel that ignoring the good the church does (the fucking ton of charity work, running homeless shelters and food programmes, etc) isn't really right.

-C

[Endangered Specie]

59. Hey, at least they werent criticising Kerry

:shrug:

[roguevalley]

64. where in *HELL* are the cops at times like this?!?!?!?!?!?

[Bridget Burke]

69. The downloaded child porn is probably illegal.

It did not indicate actual paedophilia by the clerics, but such sites should not be supported. The main subject of this article--priest/seminarian activities--seem to be unethical & tasteless but there's no indication that actual laws were broken.

In most other cases of abuse by churchmen, the cops were never involved. The parents chose to keep things discreet & accept a payment. When laws are broken, charges must be filed with the secular authorities. A trial will follow, with questions, but this is the only way to have anyone locked away.