`War is almost unavoidable,' North Korea tells UN

[dArKeR]

REUTERS , Seoul
Wednesday, Jul 28, 2004,Page 5

North Korea urged the United Nations yesterday to dissolve the UN Command on the tense peninsula and press for the withdrawal of US troops based in South Korea.

In a rare letter to UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, North Korea's representative at the Korean War truce village called on the United Nations to dissolve the 50-year-old UN Command.

"It is our view that a war in Korea is almost unavoidable as long as the US hostile policy toward the DPRK goes on," said the 1,100-word letter, which the official KCNA news agency said was written by Colonel-General Ri Chan-bok. DPRK stands for the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/28/2003180762

Yes, with Bush and repuke leadership, Frist, Hastert, Delay... surely the United States will become a Sharon's Israel!

--------------

As Bush leads the world down the path of the Valley of the Shadow of Death:

World's most respected statesman Nelson Mandela says,

"What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust."

"Why is the United States behaving so arrogantly? All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/30/iraq/main538607.shtml

[wtmusic]

1. This is not looking good

Sounds like a setup for an SK invasion.

Blame Junior? You bet I do.

[tlcandie]

2. I'm sure this regime is licking its chops to drop a BIG one ...

maybe NK is it. :cry:

[Hobarticus]

3. Well, they want Armageddon and the Second Coming...

...and I'm not being extremist when I say they'll let it happen.

[roguevalley]

4. Don't worry. Alaska has an interceptor to take care of that. Of course,

it only hits the incoming if they have beacons on them.

RV, who will get it first (Actually, they say this all the time. They want a few bows and scrapes and aid. I don't think they want to do this but maybe Bush does. I'm more afraid of him than them. And I live on North Korea's main flight path.)

[The_Casual_Observer]

6. Wishful thinking I guess

This system is untested. It is untested because it doesn't work. If they tested it it would fail and then it would be canceled. So it remains untested (and doesn't work).

[Vulture]

19. The ballistic missile intercept systems work just fine

The interceptors work far better than you think, and have been fairly thoroughly tested. I was tangentially associated with the program a decade or more ago and am familiar with the capabilities. It appears that many people are clueless as to what the mission is of this particular weapon system deployment.

It always drives me a little nuts to see the media idiots wax eloquent about some "obvious" flaws in our weapon systems, as though some lame pundit thought of something that the engineers didn't. The media is completely out of touch with this kind of thing, and it should be instructive that these weaknesses never materialize in practice. An example was the media morons who screamed loudly that GPS jammers would make JDAMs ineffective, clearly being oblivious to the design of the JDAM and the relationship of GPS to its guidance system (anyone who bothered to read the spec would know that it is guided by primarily by a Laser Ring Gyro -- a fancy unjammable piece of inertial guidance technology).

In short, the weapon system works, and works pretty well. You and most others have little understanding of how it actually works, what it is capable of, or the engineering parameters of the system. And considering how much money was spent on the research, I would hope it works if those engineers are worth a damn...

[Donkeyboy75]

22. Can you be more specific about this program?

I attended a seminar given by a scientist who worked on similar projects. He said Bush's proposed missile defense system won't work. At all.

Are you talking about this, or another program?

[NickB79]

26. It works so well, huh?

Then why does it seem to fail so often when tested against drones NOT equipped with homing beacons? Seriously, the hit-miss ratio is quite poor according to all the news reports of testing done so far.

[Nihil]

30. Maybe not

> The interceptors work far better than you think, and have been
> fairly thoroughly tested.

"Fairly thoroughly"? As in, "thoroughly tested the engine",
"thoroughly tested the warhead", "thoroughly tested the fuse" and
"thoroughly tested the computer simulations of the guidance system"
then said "F*ck! Missed! Try putting a beacon on the target"?

> It appears that many people are clueless as to what the mission is
> of this particular weapon system deployment.

The only possible mission of this particular weapon system deployment
that could be claimed to be successful is "to delude and deceive our
countrymen and our enemies into believing that America is safe".

You are not the only person on this board to have had experience
("tangential" or not) of such systems.

Whilst I agree that the media are more often wrong than right, your
defence of the system - though touchingly loyal - is also misguided.

> In short, the weapon system works, and works pretty well. You and
> most others have little understanding of how it actually works, what
> it is capable of, or the engineering parameters of the system.

We are not commenting upon the design, the comments are on the actual
realisation, the implementation of that design. This is the point at
which the "miracle happens here" box in the diagram is shown to still
be missing.

> And considering how much money was spent on the research, I would
> hope it works if those engineers are worth a damn...

Ah, it appears that we have news for you ...

Nihil

[sendero]

34. Sorry...

... is that like the "smart bombs" in Gulf I? That were hitting with 90%+ accuracy until well after the war was over when we learned that it was actually less than 50%.

The problem with technology like this is that it only as good as the imagination of the designers. The real world has a habit of throwing nasty curves at such systems that "nobody thought of". It is easy to make a system perform under controlled test conditions, not so easy to make it perform in a real armed conflict.

[leesa]

37. I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken. They HAVE been tested and

have failed each test. There is tons of documentation to show they can't pass their testing. What sources are YOU referring to?

[oneighty]

40. All branches of our armed forces have

Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technicians (Very well trained). Why? Because explosive ordnance frequently and often does not perform as advertised.

Engineers and their weapons systems are not infallible.

180 Ex-EOD.

[The_Casual_Observer]

47. This is of course nonsense

This system is a dangerous fraud. How anyone could reach the conclusion that something like this would work, after having been "tangentially" involved 10 years ago is beyond me. Chimp needs lots of critical thinkers like this to stay in the game.

[calimary]

49. Welcome to DU.

This is ALL interesting. And ALL terrifying. And regardless what shape the technology is in, I'm MOST concerned about the certifiable idiot whose finger is at the controls.

[Danieljay]

52. assuming they DID work...someone would actually have to give the order

and based on our military response (or lack thereof) on 911, I have little faith that would happen.

[struggle4progress]

53. Can't be bothered to respond to any of the questions? eom

[nofurylike]

5. the Israel comment belongs on the I/P board.

now, please learn history. this country has perpetrated 500 years of the most monstrous genocide in the history of the world.

had i not run across that comment, i would otherwise agree with you that under this regime, which longs for those days of open, unabashed genocide, we are in dire danger.

they are insane to not deal openly and evenly with Korea.

"All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil."
all that mr * wants is global conquest.


peace

[Joylaughter]

8. Here comes your 19th Nervous Breakdown

Look out. Something bad gonna happen between now and 11/2. Praying for peace and calm Earth everynight. My hope is pinned to Kerry. I pray Nov 2 will not be too late.

[wtmusic]

13. Israel comment?

Which one?

[leesa]

38. Can't say Israel.. I guess Israel's current genocidal behavior

is OK because they aren't into their 500th year.

[lynx rufus]

44. darker's comments are totally appropriate

you, my friend, are out of line

[qanda]

7. ruh roh!

That doesn't sound good.

[kisses]

9. Rinda rold

Reve been rearing rat for a rong rime row.

Ya rink?

[wtmusic]

12. welcome to DU kisses

:bounce: :toast: :bounce:

[thebigidea]

17. So is that a hilarious, wacky, oh-so-humorous Asian type parody?

[DrWeird]

18. Umm, I think that's supposed to be Scooby-Doo.

Or perhaps Retro.

[thebigidea]

20. I think the first "ruh roh" was, not the reply

That poster has a bit on the Contribute to Kerry thread that goes: "I want to contribute because Clinton was impeached. Where do I send me heavily-taxed, hard-earned money?"

I'm thinking a wacky Asian stereotype would be more likely coming from that mindset than scooby doo. We should see what Casey Kasem thinks...

[qanda]

50. Rinda rumbroned?

Ra Rink?

[squidbro]

10. Is shrub ready for WW3 precipitated not by Nazi Germany but fascist U.S?

It will be curtains for shrub and the United States if war breaks out on the Korean peninsula.

War in Asia at this stage will make the previous European conflicts pale in comparison.

Let's hope the North Koreans exercise some restraint. shrub and his cabinet seem totally incapable.

I hope we don't have to find out the hard way as Tokyo goes up in a nuclear fireball that the North Koreans did indeed have nuclear weapons and weren't bluffing on their threat to use them. China absolutely won't tolerate Japanese troops, planes or ships on the Asian mainland and the war will get ugly very, very fast.

We might just learn that the Japanese have clandestine nuclear weapons of their own.

One thing is for sure, our planet is not ready for this conflict. Even under the best of scenarios where the U.S. is bogged down fighting two fronts in a conventional war maintaining ridiculously long supply lines, Islamic fundamentalism will take advantage of the situation. Iran might invade Iraq and take on U.S. forces there also.

The scenario is nightmarish no matter how it is analyzed.

It reminds me of a saying I remember from the film "War Games" that goes, "the only way to win is not to play."

[UpInArms]

11. the lack of diplomacy of this mal-administration has

gone far to bring us to this point.

http://byrd.senate.gov/byrd_speeches/byrd_speeches_2003march/byrd_speeches_2003march_list/byrd_speeches_2003march_list_0.html

excerpt:

What is particularly frustrating is that the North Korean crisis might never have reached the proportions it has had President Bush taken a different tack with respect to North Korea when he came into office. Today's nuclear standoff with North Korea is in many ways a replay of a similar crisis in 1994, when North Korea pushed the envelope on its nuclear program, nearly precipitating a military response from the United States. That crisis was resolved when the Clinton Administration reached an agreement, called the Agreed Framework, to freeze nuclear production in North Korea in exchange for fuel oil and light-water reactors. Unfortunately, when he took office, President Bush put relations with North Korea in the deep freeze by heaping suspicion and disdain on the North Korean government, branding Kim Jong Il a "pygmy" and including North Korea in the "axis of evil."

[Vulture]

21. Umm... this is not exactly something to be proud of

The North Koreans played the Clinton administration like a bunch of chumps, something that is fairly evident now. I give Bush a pass on the North Korean diplomacy because he hasn't made the situation materially worse than it already was, and the Clinton administration basically ended up with a net negative in their diplomatic handling of the situation.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... The correct strategy is to take a hard line with North Korea and diplomatically ask China to reign in their guy. Which is what has been happening. A pretty straightforward geopolitical calculus.

If North Korea wasn't a Chinese client state, the strategy would be quite different.

[akitamata]

25. Clinton's penis, again?

Containment and a non-belligerent attitude towards the North Korean regime had been working splendidly from all I've read and heard from the diplomats and policy wonks. You are obviously an "expert" on all things geo-political, so I can only assume...that you are blowing smoke with your policy assessments. Constructive engagement would allow for a considerable easing of tensions on the peninsula. But you Vulture, are so transparently pro-war and a Bush man that I have to assume such a policy would be treasonous...get a clue, war is for idiots. That's how come Americans are always engaging in them.;p, akita

[jayfish]

39. Ummm... That Is Simply Not True.

The deal that Clinton made with NK was for the cessation of it's plutonium based weapons program. After the agreement they mothballed the program. While it appears they did have a uranium program as well they would not have been able to produce a uranium based weapon for some time. Here is what George Bush did to aggravate the situation. He violated the agreement by withholding fuel oil from NK included them is his axis of evil and put the country on a "war-footing" against a country that was nowhere near the capabilities of the true developers and proliferators. NK then resumed their plutonium program and possibly built several plutonium based weapons. Then he watched as NK went full bore into development and began re-processing it's remaining plutonium fuel rods. During Clinton's term in office, he warned NK that re-processing that fuel would, in no-uncertain terms, lead to an attack by the United States against it's weapons facilities. Do you know what Un-curious George did? Nothing, thats what. Make no mistake about it George W. Bush is directly responsible for this situation.

Jay

[sadiesworld]

41. Excellent points. Might I add:

* withheld the info re the secret uranium enrichment program until AFTER the IWR vote so as not to interfere with his oily adventure.

He also insisted on involving China in the 6-way talks. Not only have the talks been unproductive, but our reliance on China has put us in an inferior bargaining position in trade negotiations.

[jayfish]

48. I Think We Also Reneged On The Agreement By

pressuring France to cease the building of light-water reactors in NK, but I'm to lazy to look it up.

Jay

[GHOSTDANCER]

14. GULP!!!!!! .....................

Looks like Operation Summer Pulse(Get it Taking a Pulse) Found a vein.
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<http://spacemonkeymafia.dtdns.net:8080/images/urbanpigeon/aircraft-carrier.jpg><http://spacemonkeymafia.dtdns.net:8080/images/urbanpigeon/aircraft-carrier.jpg><http://spacemonkeymafia.dtdns.net:8080/images/urbanpigeon/aircraft-carrier.jpg>

[Vulture]

15. Feh, nothing to see here

More North Korean saber rattling. Zzzzzzzz. Wake me when something changes.

The North Korean propaganda machine is using the US as a diversion to distract attention from the fact that it is a dismal country run by a dismal government.

And anybody who thinks the US will invade North Korea is a fool or at least geopolitically naive. North Korea is a client state of China, and therefore not a legitimate target of military intervention. Hence the multilateral negotiations -- North Korea is China's bitch, and so the discussion has more to do with China than NK. In the last "Korean" war, we spent more time fighting the Chinese and the occasional Russian than the Koreans...

[lovuian]

16. if this is a declaration of War...then Korea better watch it

If it attacks our people their won't be an island to command

Mr.Ping Pong

[Donkeyboy75]

23. Island?

:shrug:

[sadiesworld]

42. ROTFLMAO.

[NickB79]

27. They don't have to attack the US directly to mess us up

They could simply nuke Tokyo and send the entire Asian stock market into the toilet. That would send serious long-term ripples through our stock market for years to come.

N. Korea's conventional military does not need to use nukes right now to invade S. Korea. With our military stretched so thinly in Iraq right now, the N. Korean forces could overwhelm the US and S. Korean forces before we could get re-enforcements into the area. By then, most of the ports would be secured, and N. Korea would only have to threaten to nuke any landing attempts or carrier battlegroups in the area. Being now in a defensive position, it would be much harder for the US to justify using nuclear weapons on them than if they nuked Hawaii or California directly.

BTW, N. Korea is on a peninsula, not an island.

[flaminbats]

31. even before Iraq, the defense of South Korea and Japan was in question

The question is what would stop N. Korea from making the first attack? After invading Iraq and Afghanistan, it wouldn't be trust. Now that Bush has lumped N. Korea into the Axis of Evil, it wouldn't be diplomacy. And our troops wouldn't stop them, certainly now that we know about American shortages in bullets and other basic necessities.

Is Bush hoping that his new nukes might be ready by the time N. Korea makes a move? Too bad this would give little comfort to those living in South Korea, and destroy what any credibility America has left for being the defenders of human rights and democracy.

[Sterling]

51. If they nuked Tokyo we would defo nuke N Korea.

no question about it.

[truthisfreedom]

24. oh well. no troops left, money gushing out of the coffers... all that's

left to do is... go to war in another part of the world! woohoo! bring 'em on!

[oasis]

28. "We can do two wars at a time" Donald Rumsfeld, Sec. of Defense.

[Lorien]

29. We already have two

what about three? Nope, don't think so.

[shraby]

32. Read the Plame thread #13

If you're upset about N. Korea, you'll be more upset. Pallas may have put all the pertinent info into thread 14 but I'm not sure.

[Disturbed]

33. SHIT!!!! Let's hope it's a bluff.

I cannot even imagine a scenerio of this magnitude. I suspect Dumbass has plausible deniabilty. Maybe we will get lucky and the Plame case will create indictements for at least Cheney, and his two goons, maybe even Rove. Could we get this lucky?

[tom_paine]

35. Well, to be fair, NK is a MUCH MORE Tyrannical Dictatorship than Amerika

If Georgie Porgy the Boy King's lying posturing doesn't convince me then why should I pay much attention to the ravings of one of the few Dictators who are crazier and more corrupt than he in a nation without even the dying system of cecks and balances which STILL keeps the Busheviks from acting as they would fully like to.

No, this disturbs me as much as a Lying Emperor Bunnypants* pronouncement, just more directly belligerent.

[arwalden]

36. DICK: "Oh Goody!" Bush: "Can't Wait" Rove: "Put-em-up... put-em-uuuup!"

[quaoar]

43. More North Korean bluster

This is a country run by a psychopath who fancies himself a movie producer and is afraid to fly. He has one of the largest armies in the world while his starving people are forced to scrounge for leaves and twigs.

But the Dear Leader isn't going to start an all-out ground war. This isn't 1950. He would find out rather quickly that massed infantry won't last long in this age of satellite-guided 30,000-pound fuel-air explosives.

But he doesn't have to go that far. North Korea has enough artillery within range of Seoul to turn that city into a moonscape. He'd be committing suicide if he used his nukes. Besides, he has never tested one. And in any event, if war did break out the first target on our list would be his missile systems.

We could launch a pre-emptive strike and probably take out his missiles and his ability to deliver his nuclear warheads. But that would likely prompt an artillery attack against Seoul and thousands of dead South Koreans.

The best alternative is to just pay the bastards off. North Korea has a price. We should find out what it is. Of course, to do that, Bush would have to actually talk to them.

[Tripmann]

45. Policy of pre-emption

Well,

As Georgie boy IS the leader of the free world, maybe another world figure will follow his example and strike pre-emptively.

Tripmann

[nolabels]

46. Don't worry China will reel these NK folks in a day or two

They are much comparable in autonomy to Israel and the US with their satellite rotation with dependencies for defense