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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 03:11 PM
Original message
Najaf Cemetery Becomes Killing Field ("They got guts")
Edited on Fri Aug-13-04 03:13 PM by Barrett808
Najaf Cemetery Becomes Killing Field
By TODD PITMAN, Associated Press Writer

NAJAF, Iraq - The platoon leader's call came crackling over Charlie Company radios: "We're taking RPG fire, 800 meters! Small arms fire, 300 meters!"

With night falling, the soldiers of the 1st Calvary Division were being attacked again by militants creeping tombstone by tombstone toward them in Najaf's sprawling cemetery, a killing field neither side has managed to secure in more than a week of sporadic fighting.

"You have to give them credit," Sgt. 1st Class Mike Dewilde said after a brief firefight with insurgents Thursday in a cemetery zone the military has code-named the Bronx. "They do an amazing amount with what little they have."

The men of the 1st Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment had been patrolling a dusty road that cuts into the graveyard's heart for eight hours to prevent militants loyal to firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr from moving north.

They had discovered and blown up four bombs laid on rock-strewn paths. They'd been attacked by mortars that came close but hurt nobody.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040813/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_the_bronx&cid=540&ncid=1480
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. How is it that our military is running out of bullets but the "insurgents"
are still going strong?
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ilovenicepeople Donating Member (883 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. What's a "Firebrand" cleric?
I thought Muky was Shia Muslim:shrug:
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Almost_there Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. We're running out of bullets?
I hadn't heard that the military is short of bullets or any supplies. I'd love to see a link, that would be interesting to see readiness / supplies.

~Almost
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. mr. charles..
Edited on Fri Aug-13-04 03:23 PM by frylock
toward the end of Vietnam, US service personnel would refer to the VC as Mr. Charles as a term of respect, because they too were able to do an amazing amount with what little they had.

The lessons learned..
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. And even Sir Charles
Edited on Fri Aug-13-04 03:26 PM by markses
Sir Charles definitely had his shit together.

Looks like Mr. Ali Baba, Esq. might have his shit together as well. (Why doncha come with me little girl, on a magic carpet ride...)
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. the fox is running for his dinner, the rabbit is running for his life
In this case, the foxes can get killed too, but at the end of the day, the Iraqis are fighting for their homes. Beware the cornered prey.
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0rion Donating Member (475 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. In this case the term HAJI is used as a term of endearment and respect..nt
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. THIS IS PLAIN UGLY
WE can not kill all of them. This will be their Alamo their Corrigedor.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. This is, sadly necessary
The war cannot conclusively end until an end is negotiated.

There can be no negotiations until we have a respected opponent to negotiate with.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. May I remind you that Iraq never surrendered!
May I also remind you that the US has appointed Allawi, a former CIA agent and former Baathist thug, as our new Saddam.

We already lost this war, and rightly so. It is only a matter of time before one of our political leaders admits as much and has the courage to get us out of this fiasco. The outlook for that happening looks rather grim!
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. The present regieme of Cheney et al
is really out to conquor the middle east.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. You're Right, But Even Then
Edited on Sat Aug-14-04 10:23 AM by Crisco
I don't see Allawi trying to get us to the bargaining table, do you?

There is so much about this war, its intentions, its goals that have yet to see the open light of day. And of course, we can't negotiate until we can be honest, at least with ourselves, about what it is we want, what it is we are trying to achieve.

I see one of three possible outcomes: complete pull-out, Iraq completely in ruins, never to recover and the US about to start a long slide down as we leave too many enemies in our wake; Iraq gets their shit together, fights a good enough fight to embarrass the crap out of us and gets us to the table where a finite peace can be negotiated and we help rebuild/make reparations to those affected most (our best hope, but least likely scenario right now, and horrible for US pride because the gov't will never play it straight with us about why we went in); Iraq becomes our colony/burden. Door #3 looks most likely to me.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Another scenario: US helicopters landing atop US Embassy in Baghdad
loading fleeing Americans on board as the US is forced out of Iraq by a nationwide rebellion.

By the time that happens, thousands would have died or been wounded for nothing more than a PNAC/PPI dream of imperial domination of oil supplies.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. Testosterone Poisoning
Since he can't gun down the disloyal US citizens who will vote against him, Bush will take out as many Iraqis as he can before we put him down, like the mad dog he is. It's a classic display of the Displacement Theory. And a total perversion of US principles, like everything else this poseur has done.
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u2spirit Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. hear hear
Couldn't have said it better myself. Geoge W Bush is a sick fuck!
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
9. Just a little lesson about RPG use in Iraq
Killer RPG Tactics for the Beginner
by James Dunnigan
July 11, 2003
The increased use of RPG-7s in Iraq, and the tactics being used, indicate that men who fought in Afghanistan are showing the locals the Afghan RPG tactics developed during the 1980s. The RPG series of anti-tank rockets was developed by the Russians after World War II, based on the German "Panzerfaust." The RPG-7 entered service in the early 1970s and has become the most popular of the series. It is still manufactured in many nations (especially China and Pakistan). Russia has gone on to develop more refined, but not nearly as popular, models.

The RPG-7 has a rudimentary sighting mechanism, and is basically "point and shoot." You can be trained to use an RPG-7 in minutes. Anyone who is already a good shot with a rifle, can become quite accurate with an RPG-7 after firing a few rounds. After a few dozen rounds, amazing feats of accuracy can be achieved. For example, Afghans were able to use RPGs against the reactive armor on Russian armored vehicles by firing one RPG to detonate the reactive armor (blocks of explosives mounted on an armored vehicle, which exploded when hit by an RPG, thus destroying the armor penetrating effect of the RPG.) But once a section of reactive armor had exploded, it left that portion of the vehicle unprotected. Another PRG gunner would immediately fire another rocket and hit that spot (about the size of a window), thus penetrating the vehicles armor and destroying it. These tactics were used when the RPG gunners were within 50 meters of the vehicle being attacked. Still, it was a remarkably effective tactic that was used many times. Tanks were often immune to RPG rockets, at least their front armor. So the RPG gunners would either try for a rear shot, or hit the vision blocks for the driver, gunner and commander. Thus blinded, the RPG gunners could maneuver for a kill. Naturally, the Russians tried to protect their tanks and armored vehicles with infantry. But when an RPG rocket hit, it killed or injured most people within 10-15 feet of the explosion. Thus the Afghans would fire barrages of six or more RPG rockets at a Russian tank, to incapacitate or drive away the infantry so the vehicle could be taken out. It was the Afghans who first figured out how vulnerable tanks are to RPG shots at their rear end.

Even though the back-blast of an RPG was pretty hard to miss (a flash of light accompanied by a cloud of grayish smoke), you could make it less prominent by wetting down dust and sand for 6-10 feet behind the gunner. This made it harder for enemy troops to immediately fire on the RPG gunner, and hit him. The Afghans also learned that you always move after you have fired an RPG rocket, for an opponent with any brains at all will fire at the RPG gunner. Thus in ambushes, the Afghans were careful to pick out firing spots for RPG gunners that gave them a clear shot at the targets, and a quick route out of there to a second, and even third, firing position. Since each RPG gunner was accompanied by two or three men with AK-47s (and carrying additional rockets, weighing about five pounds each), an Afghan ambush had at least half a dozen RPGs fired and a dozen or more AK-47s opening up, with the RPG gunners running to new firing positions and letting off another rocket. This sort of thing drove the Russians nuts, as well as killing lots of them and destroying many vehicles.

The Afghans also discovered that RPGs could bring down helicopters. If the RPG gunners could get within a hundred meters of a helicopters, a barrage of rockets would usually result in a hit, which would either bring the chopper down, or cause so much damage that the helicopter would leave the battle. If was the Afghans who also realized that the self destruct mechanism of the RPG rocket went off at 800-900 meters. Thus if gunners got the range right, they could use RPGs as artillery, obtaining deadly airbursts over enemy troops, or even damage or destroy a distant helicopter.

In 1994, the Chechens used many of these same tactics against the Russian army, to great effect. Many Chechens had fought in Afghanistan. The RPG tactics used against American and other peacekeeper troops in Somalia in 1993 was also the result of Afghanistan veterans coming by to share their experiences.

All of these tactics have already been seen in Iraq. Unfortunately for the Iraqis, American tanks and infantry vehicles have armor that is pretty much invulnerable to RPG hits. Thus the Iraqis are concentrating their fire on unarmored vehicles. Given a chance, the Iraqis will make more use of RPGs, a deadly weapon in the hands of anyone out to kill.
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. what a clear, informative essay.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I believe that RPG's killed at least one M1A1 Abrams tank in Baghdad.
Maybe more. Also credited with several 'mobility kills' of M1A1's.

And light armor is its main meal.

And unarmored humvees, well . . .

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Big_AJ Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thats ...
Cavalry not Calvary.

AJ
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. "they got guts"
Reminds me of Henry V when the French nobles are looking forward to meeting their sick and weary foe, England, on the battle field of Agincourt. Shakespere has Montrose the Herald, who had witnessed Henry, king of the English and his wise and noble council, say "they breed very valiant creatures on that island."

"They got guts" might be the 21st century equivalent, coming from someone who has seen the enemy close up and personal.

We keep acting out the same plays throughout the centuries. We never seem to evolve enough to break the self-defeating cycles.

Julie--feeling a bit philosophical this evening
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. The irony is that in 1991 Saddam slaughtered thousands of Shias
while in 2004 it is the Americans that are slaughtering the Shias at a much faster rate than Saddam.

And some of our compatriots are so dense as to wonder aloud why "do they hate us?"
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-13-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Neo Fascists
They are framing the insurgency as being anti- Iraqi forces fighting against the Iraqi Govt. It is 100% false! The insurgency is fighting the US and the US Puppet Regime. Many here at DU know this but I feel that most Americans that even give a damn believe the Neo Fascist lie.

While I am not a fan of al Sadr and his followers and their goals of a Muslim Theocracy for Iraq, I do feel that the Iraqis have the right to chose this if they desire that form of Govt. The US will not allow the Iraqis to chose this.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. When a vast majority take up arms against their oppressor
in their own country they will still call them insurgents, haven't you learned US diplomacy yet?



http://www.addictedtowar.com/homepage.html
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
23. Nice...
"in a cemetery zone the military has code-named the Bronx."
The Bronx? The thought process behind that choice speaks volumes.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-14-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. Saddam had his mass graves of Shias
Now Bush will best him, by creating the fodder for his mass graves right in a graveyard. Can anything match that for efficiency? The ultimate in war mongering insanity.
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