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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 11:51 AM
Original message
Children's Curiosity Proved All Too Deadly This Time
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=11&u=/latimests/20041001/ts_latimes/childrenscuriosityprovedalltoodeadlythistime

BAGHDAD — For many Iraqi children, a car bombing or mortar strike isn't a tragedy. It's the biggest excitement of the week.

They are drawn by billowing smoke, police sirens and the certainty that journalists will soon arrive to interview witnesses. The children flood to the scene, pick through debris, wave to television cameras and interact with the U.S. troops who show up to clear the wreckage.

So it was Thursday when scores of children rushed to the site of a suicide car bombing in the working-class Amal district of Baghdad. They marveled at the crater left by the bomb, practiced their English on troops and rode bicycles around the American tanks. They accepted candy from a soldier.

Then a second suicide bomber barreled down the street toward the U.S. and Iraqi forces — and the children who surrounded them. And then a third. The children were no longer observers of the attack, but its victims.

more...What may I ask is a soldier doing passing out candy to kids at the scene of a car bombing? Do these guys have superiors? I'd like to have a word with them.

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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sick bastards.
nt
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tranche Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. They really need to rethink that.
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 12:05 PM by 5and9
I was thinking the same thing. Unfortunately we're in a war zone and our soldiers are targets. We should be trying to distance our fighters from children in cases such as this.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. I won't second guess the troops handing out candy..
..there was obviously no ill intent there. Perhaps many of them are struggling for some joy out of the hell they're living right now.. some feeling that it's not all shit over there.

They should have cleared the people away from the scene, but I imagine they couldn't have known it would hit twice, and then three times.

What a horrible story.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. These insurgents are sick
that's for sure.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. No more sick than the US.
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 12:12 PM by DrWeird
Lot's of Iraqi children would still be alive if the troops weren't there.

If things were the other way around, insurgents handing candy to children and the US blew them up, people would be saying insurgents used the children as human shields.

Can't have it both ways.
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They_LIHOP Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. Not to make excuses for this horror..
But all the points made here are pretty valid. If it were the other way round, the children would be 'human shields' the insurgents were using. It can be interesting sometimes to make the mental effort to consider things from the perspective of others in any situation. Its a skill/inclination that ENTIRELY separates we on the left from the freeps - the trait of empathy comes naturally to us, and it's completely foreign to them...

I'd say that I agree that if the insurgents actually went out of their way to target children then obviously they are sick f*cks. But more likely, the thinking was similar to the thinking on 9/11 ... spread out the attacks so that you end up getting the responders as well - more 'bang for the buck', sad to say.

I hate to even be acknowledging or making excuse for anythign that involves the death of children OR our troops, but the fact is, the bushies have F***ED things up so badly that I can hardly blame these people for doing whatever is necessary to take their homeland back from the imperial invaders of the USA, my own country.

DAMN THESE B@STARD NEO-CON F***S FOR CAUSING ME TO THINK THIS WAY. This is NOT the way of the USA, goddamnit! Taking Iraq's friggin oil without even METERING it, and then 'losing' another 9 BILLION of the money that is known about from the oil sales.

OF COURSE we are there for the oil. If we're not, president cheney has done a PATHETICALLY PISS POOR job of making our real intent clear, because ALL SIGNS point to this being an imperial invasion to install a puppet regime and STEAL from these poor, long suffering people of Iraq. When will the horror end for these people? They probably almost wish they DIDN'T have all this oil under the soil of their country at this point. Their country wouldn't be a whole lot poorer and sadder than it is now with Cheney and Co. bombing the shit out of them so they can steal it anyway...

THIS SUCKS...

President Kerry, the WORLD NEEDS YOU, BUDDY!!!
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skylarmae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Iraqi's wrap your babies in gold and hide them
I swear, can't the mothers keep these kids out of the
streets. In a war zone, keep them home. If they're not
on our side anyway, (looters of the dead) don't cry, they are on
Georgie Porgies head. Him and all those who conspired with him
to create this horror.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Unless one or both of their parents are dead from our bombings
I shudder to think how many orphans are now roaming the streets of Baghdad, Fallujah and Najaf because of our "smart" bombs that somehow always manage to kill dozens of civilians when we try to blow up insurgent safehouses. Even with one parent still alive, what if that parent is crippled and maimed by the blast? Or is too busy trying to find food and a job to be home with her children?
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Jack The Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Only, and i mean THE ONLY, people to blame for this are the bombers...
and I was getting kind of upset at people on this board suggesting that the troops should not be handing candy to children or that parents should have had their kids inside.

Time to check your reasoning. The suicide bombers are inhumane, deluded psychopaths who saw children at the scene and proceeded to blow themselves up anyway. End of story. There would be no dead children or injured soldiers otherwise.

I honestly get sick of seeing posts here where people are very VERY quick to blame troops or anything else besides the insurgents carrying out these actions.

<end of rant>
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. No, the people to blame are the Americans.
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 01:56 PM by DrWeird
Those kids would still be alive if not for the invasion. The blame lies completely with the people who started this war and the people who support it.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Sorry
Those guys blew up kids with knowledge of the act. Killing children is abhorrent no matter who does it. They could have used aimed rifle fire. They didn't.

Suicide bombers saw who they were going to kill and then detonated their weapon.

The war will be a reality after November no matter who wins and this kind of action will be equally abhorrent regardless of who is in office.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. This is what you like to call "collateral damage" when Americans do it.
"Those guys blew up kids with knowledge of the act. Killing children is abhorrent no matter who does it"

This is exactly what Americans have been doing since this war started, yet you still support it. In fact, just the other day when the US troop cheered about firing into a crowd of civilians you apologized saying there's nothing wrong with taking a little pride in one's work.

Frankly, I don't see any difference between you and the "terrorists."
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You are full of
sound and fury..

No fact. The tape showed nothing you or anyone else could use to determine combat status of the large clump of people moving leaving stragglers on street corners. That is a fact. You can yell war crime and genocide all day and it doesn't make fact. aw dude, you better call the Hague..

You do know the difference in opinion and fact don't you?

Until congress defunds the war or a president orders the troops out it is my call to support the people in the military doing their jobs. Their job is to kill combatants.

You play fast and loose with the truth.

Frankly I could care less about what you think about me. Your fundamental failure to understand logic makes you boring to argue with. Here is the reality chump. In November, no matter who wins, the war will persist. The people fighting the war should be isolated from the political bullshit that goes on. They are not good or bad based on elections. The administration is responsible for the war not the military. You do understand how the government works?
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. But here you are supporting the war without signing up.
Do you understand the meaning of the word "chickenhawk?"

Every single post you make you go on about how Kerry supports the war, even though time and again, including last night, that he's against it. This little ruse hasn't worked the first time you made it, it hasn't worked the hundreds of other times you've tried it, what makes you think it will work now?

The difference between Kerry and Bush are profound. Kerry will pull the troops out during his first term. He cares about the troops. If Bush, or you, cared about the troops he wouldn't have started it and you wouldn't be supporting it. Kerry's a war hero and he actually supports the troops. As opposed to the chickenhawk Bush, who's just full of shit and doesn't give a damn about troops. And that's true of all chickenhawks.

Fucking savages.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Logic
If you support the war sign up and fight.
(THOUGHT) (ACTION)
if you do not support the war shoot the president, blow up a munitions plant???

I support a womans right to choice so I should financially support Planned Parenthood (etc)

I oppose abortion so I should shoot doctors who perform them.

Thought != Action.

This is a piss poor argument and does not separate action and thought. Fundamentally flawed and worthless.

Sorry, first I didn't say I supported the war, I don't, I do support my friends and neighbors who have no choice and have to fight it. Big difference..

The only time I bring up Kerry's position is when people roll out the pie in the sky bullshit that the soldiers are at fault or that the war will be over when Kerry is elected. The war is reality and will be next year. If you watched the debate his position is very clear, win the war. No fucking around, or bush beating, win the war.

Your abrasive bullshit argument may work on some dickcheese moron but you are drowning in your own verbal diarrhea with me.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Quit trying to weasel out.
Last time you made this argument you claimed that people who support pro-choice should all go out and have abortions. It's pretty clear to everybody you're just trying to weasel out of it.

You know, I know, and everybody knows that if you support the war you should be willing to go there and fight it, and if you don't then you're a weasely, hypocritical coward.

Go ahead and ask around.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You are misquoting and slipping the scope
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 05:02 PM by Radius
You argument is piss poor. You are childish and "everyone" can see you are playing games. I'm not talking to everyone, I'm talking to you.

I don't support it, but if I did, saying support a thought, requires action is asinine and piss poor logic.

Abortion is easy to compare.

I support gun control therefore I have to choose not to own a gun.
I support gun ownership therefore I have to own a gun.

thought != action.

Logical fallacies galore. Your argument is flawed, just because someone agrees with you doesn't change that.

You are the one fucking around and misquoting.

You opinion is noted and is as relevant to me as mine is to you..

Reality on the other hand is far different.

The war will not transform in November, the people responsible for fighting it will not change. Slamming them will not accomplish anything.

The administration is the problem, not the troops.

Edit:spell
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Why don't we just ask everybody else?
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Do you know how to argue?
You are playing games. Address the issue in this thread. thought != action.

Killing kids on purpose to achieve political means is fucked up. The point is to keep Iraqis away from the US. Punish collaborators.

I'm talking to you, not everyone.

I am not a member of congress or employed by the pres. My opinion has no effect on the war. Even though I have said that I'm against it.

Are you incapable of rational argument or unwilling?
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Well, I've already addressed the issue, but if you want me to do so again
"Killing kids on purpose to achieve political means is fucked up." Agreed. So far in Iraq, the US, via US troops, has killed on purpose and to acheive political means, some 14,000 innocent civilians, a good portion of those children.

And yes, it was on purpose. The war isn't being fought on accident. Firing into a crowd of protestors takes just as much purpose as driving a car bomb at a US target.

You keep saying you're against the war, but since you've been here you've done nothing but support the war and apologize for its atrocities. So go and enlist.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. AZ or Amoco, you first JO.
you are incapable of seeing what is in front of you. I'm not the issue.

I'll enlist and you go blow up halliburton or your nearest military base. You can buy demo and detonators in AZ with a drivers licence..Go for it. If you are cheap you can buy 500 lbs of Ammonium Nitrate at any agri supply store and 500lbs of diesel or fuel oil and brew it up. You can use a pipe bomb as a to start a high order detonation.

You make the news and I swear to God I'll quit my job and see if the marines will take a 29 year old for infantry.

You are utterly full of shit.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Where have I supported war against Halliburton.
I've never supported violence against Halliburton. I support criminal charges, and would be happy to volunteer any services the lawyers may need from me. But I've never advocated violence against Halliburton the way you have agains the people of Iraq.

If you're so willing to join the marines based on an anonymous bet on a message board, why don't you actually go and enlist because they actually need enlistees to fight a war that you are cheerleading for? Wouldn't that be the very definition of "full of shit?"
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Thought != Action
First JO I never supported the war. Only my friends and neighbors who have no choice but to fight it. Only when morons look at video and yell war crime do I explain the system. Likes pigs and a pocket watch, look they are all civilians. Dude its a war crime because he said aw dude...

I've looked at vid and said we killed civilians too.

Your position is not supported by the party or Kerry. Or any one. Hell Pelosi didn't step where you are.

By your logic any support ( a thought) requires an action (enlist) and kill the enemy.

Very extreme, by the same logic you should be doing everything you can to stop it. Kill the people who run the war, etc.

Your logic and thought process is broken.

But you blow up the "enemy" (your pick) and I'll enlist in the marines. No shit. Your statement is clear and those are the terms your argument entails. Ante up.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Actually, the majority of humans on Earth support my position.
That is, the US doesn't belong in Iraq.

The only people who support the war are people who support Bush, and Bush is the only reason they support the war.

We are killing civilians. We are committing war crimes. And you're supporting it.

I'm not blowing up any of my enemies because I don't want to blow anybody up. You do want to blow people up, you just want other people to do it for you so you won't get hurt.

I'll ask again, why would you be willing to join the marines for a dumb bet, but not because they actually need you?

That's a rhetorical question, btw. We all know the answer.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Slippery
as whale shit on an iceberg..

I DO NOT SUPPORT the war in IRAQ.

I believe the responsibility for the war is with the PRESIDENT, not the kids in the field.

I will not attack the military for following legal orders given by a president and funded by congress. Congress can defund the war at any time.

The bet is not the issue, the logic surrounding it is. The bet is your logic in motion, you understand that right?

Your parroting of this broken statement does not make it correct. It is logically flawed. It proves your inability to think for yourself and follow an argument and refute it on its points.

Once again thought does not equate to action. I am not the issue.

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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I totally and completely agree.
We started this war. We helped put Saddam in power. And you and I are even paying for them to do it. As long as we continue paying taxes, we are to blame. It all falls directly on those who started this war. I'm affraid to even mention how much of this war actually falls on us for using so much energy. Maybe this is why I've always felt so badly about driving or traveling, or buying new things. I see very clearly what is going on in this world. Most people don't want to look. It even goes back to overpopulation. But we can't do anything about that now, so I don't mention it much anymore. Besides, it's an issue noone seems to be able to wrap their brains around.
I see plainly that the bombers blew up a bomb. That's not looking deep enough.
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Elginoid Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. yup. we all have some of that blood on our hands.
this is all our country, right or wrong...
feels real good, don't it? (is a sarcasm alert really necessary?)
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. Moral issues aside, the message is clear: "Stay away from US forces"
In addition, the insurgency seems to be saying, "Don't send your children to US-built schools today."

To the insurgents, any contact with the US or US endeavors is collaboration. Collaborators of any stripe are the enemy, and are treated accordingly. No exceptions are made for children.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Old Tactic...(literary ref, historically inaccurate, but makes the point)
Apocalypse now.

We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Yes, watched Apocalypse Now Redux four or five times last summer
It's amazing how newly relevant the Vietnam-era films are today.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. "About Face" Hackworth is worth a read. as is "Street without Joy"(nt)
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. "What may I ask is a soldier doing passing out candy"
The same thing Mattel does to our kids on TV.
It's an effort to win the parents through their children.
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Radius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Age old tradition..
US soldiers gave out chocolate rations in ww2 to kids all over Europe.
I wouldn't read to much into that.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Soldiers in hell want to still be human and are be drawn to the innocence
of children. Who wouldn't want to interact in a gracious way with sweets to show good will? This is very human and OUR TROOPS ARE NEARLY CHILDREN THEMSELVES.

A very touching (literally) photo I saved is of a 19 year old marine in full battle gear squatting down to pet a kitten in Iraq. This picture brings tears to my eyes. A young soldier equipped to destroy who just wants to pet a gentle animal. The range of human experience from heaven to hell in one photo...

AND YET: To get into the debate above, isn't it telling that some people hold bombers who blow up children as responsible for their OWN actions yet can still cite justifications for COMPLETELY EXONERATING our own troops FOR DOING THE EXACT SAME THING?

"The System is solely guilty for the slaughter of innocents,not our own innocent soldier-children who pull the trigger and kill children in another country."

Hard to face up to our troop's complicity in atrocities, isn't it?
Of course they are victims, too. But the victimizing of being killed is rather different from being turned into a killer, isn't it? There is quite a difference.

This is how the Military Machine gets its fodder in every war:
1)THEY STEAL OUR CHILDREN AND TELL THEM TO DO HORRIBLE THINGS.
2)WE 'SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.'
3)WE THEREBY GIVE UP OUR OWN INNOCENCE TO THE WAR CRIMINALS AT THE TOP LIKE A FLOCK OF SHEEP FEEDING WOLVES. CALL IT 'TRICKLE UP INTEGRITY.'

The Pentagon is a vampire that cons us into giving it the blood of our children.

"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."
-Edward Murrow
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sr_pacifica Donating Member (775 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #32
55. Good post n/t
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FrozenNorth Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. That is soooo wrong to say...
Most soldiers are just like you and me, they love children too. I was in Northern Iraq, doing humanitarian relief, after GW1 and spent money out of my own pocket to buy candy for the delightful children I met daily there. The Kurdish people were warm and wonderful, their kids loved us and I couldn't wait to get to the refugee areas to hand out sweets and squat around with the elders talking through our local hire translators. Don't assume evil where none exsists, some people love others and want to help, those smiles and hugs warm my heart to this day. The good we did with digging wells and building schools was one of the best experiences of my life. Don't attribute bad things to our soldiers interacting with children.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. This may all be true
My dad was a soldier in the Canadian army in WW2, and I can certainly imagine him handing out candy to kids in Italy, with absolutely no ulterior motive.

Nonetheless, many people in the middle east will not see it this way. They will assume that the troops were under orders to attract kids to the crowd, to ensure that the resistance wouldn't detonate another bomb. Just another way that Bush's horrendous mistake put these soldiers in a no-win situation.
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FrozenNorth Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. You assume they care about Iraqis
Your response is not addressing the issue I brought up. That person suggested we were trying to “buy” support by interacting with children, as if it’s something orchestrated. Your post also suggests that you believe that if they DO think that then it’s why they murder children, after all they were just “human shields” and collaborators. The fact that these killers place NO value on the life of Iraqi children is not addressed at all. Place the mass murder of these kids where it belongs, on the killers themselves. They are trying to terrify the populace, and they are doing it though the murder of Iraqi innocents. I want all Iraqis to be able to vote on their new government. Saddam is not coming back and they need a future that isn’t driven by foreign killers or religious totalitarians.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Agreed. Sadly, most of our troops really want to help make things better.
And many have genuinely noble intent and sacrifice their own safety in the name of making Iraq a better safer place instead of the hell it has been for decades.

It's terribly ironic that their good intents are used for the evil purposes of the neocon's post-9/11 reach for oil in Operation Global Lynching.

But when will our soldier-children and their parents learn how they are being used? We must keep teaching our children about Vietnam and the institutionalized abuse of power that is the US government, CIA, and Pentagon.

The Iraqi resistance wants to convey the same message to their own countrymen who are taking jobs as police to occupy themselves and give war criminals from the west a hold on the region!

Classic imperial tactics-train the locals to suppress their fellow citizens. This goes back to the Roman Empire atleast.

And it is used here at home as well. (It's called the War on Drugs.)
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FrozenNorth Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Has to be now...
"The Iraqi resistance wants to convey the same message to their own countrymen who are taking jobs as police to occupy themselves and give war criminals from the west a hold on the region!"

WTF? You don't feel they should start to set up a police force and start being self-sufficient? At some point they need a real police force and their own military, they need to secure their own country and start elections so we can GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE. Don't shit out your mouth about "war criminals" from the west. These people need a police force now, and a military too.

Unless you advocate chaos, in which case there cannot be elections and an eventual turnover. I want us out of there, but I want an Iraq that is able to have an election. The first might be very ragged but there is hope for them. The Iranians and other religion ruled states quake at the idea of real elections in the region.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. "Self-sufficient Iraqis..."? Like getting off welfare? Bootstraps?
Edited on Fri Oct-01-04 09:13 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
Ever hear of Nazi occupied France and the resistance which didn't cotton to Nazi collaborators? Yeah, it's like that. The violence is so bad and the CIA has plans to influence any 'elections' making the issue of democracy nothing more than sentimental rhetoric. The American violence and the resistance's counter-violence are the climate Iraqis have to survive.

If you really want to know what it is like in Iraq, read this:

This is a real email sent by a Wall Street Journal reporter in Baghdad on September 29, 2004. It details the all out disaster that is now Iraq. I mean ALL OUT DISASTER.

This email was published on the presitigious Poynter Institute\'sWeb site. More importantly, the Wall Street Journal confirmed today to the NY Post that the email is legit. (You can also read the reporter owning up to the email here.)

Read this entire thing - it's long and horrifying. Then send it to everyone you know. Tell the world what George Bush has done.



WSJ reporter Fassihi's e-mail to friends

9/29/2004 2:58:10 PM

From: Farnaz Fassihi
Subject: From Baghdad

Being a foreign correspondent in Baghdad these days is like being under virtual house arrest. Forget about the reasons that lured me to this job: a chance to see the world, explore the exotic, meet new people in far away lands, discover their ways and tell stories that could make a difference.

Little by little, day-by-day, being based in Iraq has defied all those reasons. I am house bound. I leave when I have a very good reason to and a scheduled interview. I avoid going to people's homes and never walk in the streets. I can't go grocery shopping any more, can't eat in restaurants, can't strike a conversation with strangers, can't look for stories, can't drive in any thing but a full armored car, can't go to scenes of breaking news stories, can't be stuck in traffic, can't speak English outside, can't take a road trip, can't say I'm an American, can't linger at checkpoints, can't be curious about what people are saying, doing, feeling. And can't and can't. There has been one too many close calls, including a car bomb so near our house that it blew out all the windows. So now my most pressing concern every day is not to write a kick-ass story but to stay alive and make sure our Iraqi employees stay alive. In Baghdad I am a security personnel first, a reporter second.

It's hard to pinpoint when the 'turning point' exactly began. Was it April when the Fallujah fell out of the grasp of the Americans? Was it when Moqtada and Jish Mahdi declared war on the U.S. military? Was it when Sadr City, home to ten percent of Iraq's population, became a nightly battlefield for the Americans? Or was it when the insurgency began spreading from isolated pockets in the Sunni triangle to include most of Iraq? Despite President Bush's rosy assessments, Iraq remains a disaster. If under Saddam it was a 'potential' threat, under the Americans it has been transformed to 'imminent and active threat,' a foreign policy failure bound to haunt the United States for decades to come.

Iraqis like to call this mess 'the situation.' When asked 'how are thing?' they reply: 'the situation is very bad."

What they mean by situation is this: the Iraqi government doesn't control most Iraqi cities, there are several car bombs going off each day around the country killing and injuring scores of innocent people, the country's roads are becoming impassable and littered by hundreds of landmines and explosive devices aimed to kill American soldiers, there are assassinations, kidnappings and beheadings. The situation, basically, means a raging barbaric guerilla war. In four days, 110 people died and over 300 got injured in Baghdad alone. The numbers are so shocking that the ministry of health -- which was attempting an exercise of public transparency by releasing the numbers -- has now stopped disclosing them.

Insurgents now attack Americans 87 times a day.

A friend drove thru the Shiite slum of Sadr City yesterday. He said young men were openly placing improvised explosive devices into the ground. They melt a shallow hole into the asphalt, dig the explosive, cover it with dirt and put an old tire or plastic can over it to signal to the locals this is booby-trapped. He said on the main roads of Sadr City, there were a dozen landmines per every ten yards. His car snaked and swirled to avoid driving over them. Behind the walls sits an angry Iraqi ready to detonate them as soon as an American convoy gets near. This is in Shiite land, the population that was supposed to love America for liberating Iraq.

For journalists the significant turning point came with the wave of abduction and kidnappings. Only two weeks ago we felt safe around Baghdad because foreigners were being abducted on the roads and highways between towns. Then came a frantic phone call from a journalist female friend at 11 p.m. telling me two Italian women had been abducted from their homes in broad daylight. Then the two Americans, who got beheaded this week and the Brit, were abducted from their homes in a residential neighborhood. They were supplying the entire block with round the clock electricity from their generator to win friends. The abductors grabbed one of them at 6 a.m. when he came out to switch on the generator; his beheaded body was thrown back near the neighborhoods.

The insurgency, we are told, is rampant with no signs of calming down. If any thing, it is growing stronger, organized and more sophisticated every day. The various elements within it-baathists, criminals, nationalists and Al Qaeda-are cooperating and coordinating.

I went to an emergency meeting for foreign correspondents with the military and embassy to discuss the kidnappings. We were somberly told our fate would largely depend on where we were in the kidnapping chain once it was determined we were missing. Here is how it goes: criminal gangs grab you and sell you up to Baathists in Fallujah, who will in turn sell you to Al Qaeda. In turn, cash and weapons flow the other way from Al Qaeda to the Baathisst to the criminals. My friend Georges, the French journalist snatched on the road to Najaf, has been missing for a month with no word on release or whether he is still alive.

America's last hope for a quick exit? The Iraqi police and National Guard units we are spending billions of dollars to train. The cops are being murdered by the dozens every day-over 700 to date -- and the insurgents are infiltrating their ranks. The problem is so serious that the U.S. military has allocated $6 million dollars to buy out 30,000 cops they just trained to get rid of them quietly.

As for reconstruction: firstly it's so unsafe for foreigners to operate that almost all projects have come to a halt. After two years, of the $18 billion Congress appropriated for Iraq reconstruction only about $1 billion or so has been spent and a chuck has now been reallocated for improving security, a sign of just how bad things are going here.

Oil dreams? Insurgents disrupt oil flow routinely as a result of sabotage and oil prices have hit record high of $49 a barrel. Who did this war exactly benefit? Was it worth it? Are we safer because Saddam is holed up and Al Qaeda is running around in Iraq?

Iraqis say that thanks to America they got freedom in exchange for insecurity. Guess what? They say they'd take security over freedom any day, even if it means having a dictator ruler.

I heard an educated Iraqi say today that if Saddam Hussein were allowed to run for elections he would get the majority of the vote. This is truly sad.

Then I went to see an Iraqi scholar this week to talk to him about elections here. He has been trying to educate the public on the importance of voting. He said, "President Bush wanted to turn Iraq into a democracy that would be an example for the Middle East. Forget about democracy, forget about being a model for the region, we have to salvage Iraq before all is lost."

One could argue that Iraq is already lost beyond salvation. For those of us on the ground it's hard to imagine what if any thing could salvage it from its violent downward spiral. The genie of terrorism, chaos and mayhem has been unleashed onto this country as a result of American mistakes and it can't be put back into a bottle.

The Iraqi government is talking about having elections in three months while half of the country remains a 'no go zone'-out of the hands of the government and the Americans and out of reach of journalists. In the other half, the disenchanted population is too terrified to show up at polling stations. The Sunnis have already said they'd boycott elections, leaving the stage open for polarized government of Kurds and Shiites that will not be deemed as legitimate and will most certainly lead to civil war.

I asked a 28-year-old engineer if he and his family would participate in the Iraqi elections since it was the first time Iraqis could to some degree elect a leadership. His response summed it all: "Go and vote and risk being blown into pieces or followed by the insurgents and murdered for cooperating with the Americans? For what? To practice democracy? Are you joking?"

-Farnaz

Edit: Found the article in GD2004 above to include.
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FrozenNorth Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Reply in your own words
Don't be so lame. You quote the Wall Street Journal for your reply... Good lord. Fuck it. Let them muddle about and fail as a free state then. Let the crazy Iranian Mullahs spread their facism there, let them fail. At least then we can sit back and say "they were not ready for democracy". Such a shame...
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. I don't advocate chaos. Bush* created it. I want the US out also.
I'm trying to tell you that the US cannot bring 'security' to a people that sees them as the enemy attacking their families and stealing their oil and continuing the Crusades.

If you read that personal report from a WSJ reporter (not the WSJ itself), you would see that American-imposed 'democracy' is impossible. And don't repeat that Bush* line suggesting that only condescending racists would suggest this.

Remember, the US has been preventing democracy and installing torturing dictators all over the planet for the last 60 years.

The US occupation force is attempting to train their own replacements to keep US casualties out of the media and Allawi is a CIA stooge and the elections are a sham and the country is wall to wall weapons.

Voting in this environment is irrelevant. Hell, voting is nearly irrelevant in THIS country!

This has been demonstrated in the last year and a half with things getting worse.

Maybe what is upsetting you ("don't shit out of your mouth about war criminals from the west") is my writing that mostly well-meaning US troops are slaughtering innocents as tools of US fascism.
http://www.hermes-press.com/impintro1.htm
(The New US-British Oil Imperialism)

And, sorry, but heinous war crimes are being committed by our noble child-soldiers in the name of Freedom and Jesus Christ.

Where are we in disagreement in your view?

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FrozenNorth Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Our assisstance = war crimes???
You are certifiable, absolutely crazy. I really hope the people there have more hope for their future than you have for them. They have the first chance in 50 years to develop a real government, it might take some tweeking but the alternate is horrible. They have the chance to have the FIRST democracy in the middle east. Do you consider this a bad thing?
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. You call the invasion of Iraq, torture, rape, murder..."assistance"?
Wow. Ok. I see where we have a very different view of US involvement in Iraq.

Umm. Where have you been for the last 13 years? Or even just this year?

If you are really interested, I will give you some links.
The short story is that the US has been killing Iraqis AND Iranians for oil for decades.

Saddam was the US's employee ever since he first attempted a coup in the 50s with the help of the CIA.

He finally came to power in the 60s and promptly killed 3000 people the CIA wanted dead.

He was armed and pointed at war with Iran to keep the Iranian Revolution of 1979 (against the US-installed dictator there who's secret police were trained to torture by Genl. Schwarzkopf's father) from threatening 'our' Saudi oil.

The US aided both sides of the war and over 1,000,000 died.
The US gave Saddam intel and WMD to use against the Iranians.

The US is complicit in Saddam's horrors against his own people.

The US allowed him to invade Kuwait. Gave him a green light!

The US threw him out of Kuwait and established bases in Saudi Arabia which pissed off Usama bin Laden who the CIA trained in terrorism.

The US destroyed the civilian infrastructure of Iraq intentionally violating the Geneva Conventions. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died of starvation and disease as a result of the destruction and following sanctions in the 90s.

Perhaps you've read that the US killed 12,000-30,000 civilians in the invasion of 2003.

Perhaps you've read that this White House has instituted torture and murder and disappearance of prisoners all over the world.

There are places called Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib and dozens of other sites with the same medieval atrocities being committed in our name.

Maybe you heard about Marine snipers in Fallujah killing hundreds of women and children and elderly.

That's some kind of "assistance." Wonder why they are fighting back?

I could go on and on and on.

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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #49
58. Has anyone on this thread mentioned that the children were invited?
J.O.M., Always love your posts and am usually in total agreement.
There's some argument here that the children should "stay away from U.S. troops"

Well, there were so many bombings in which children were killed yesterday and Thursday that it is hard to understand which one they are referring to in this thread. But the one where the children were receiving candy from the troops was a celebration. It was a ribbon cutting ceremony for the opening of a sewer (that statement alone should describe how things are in Iraq) and the children were invited to attend. A total of 43 were killed, more than 30 children.

I have a schizophrenic viewpoint regarding the troops. They are in a hopeless, pathetic situation and many naively thought they would be "liberating" Iraqis.

Then I see footage from a documentary series "Shocking and Awful" and the behavior of our troops is so sadistic and disgusting that I see them as nothing but war criminals. We have been through the war when everyone was just following orders and we know that outcome. No one is forced to fire a weapon. Statistics from WWII showed that many didn't...just couldn't bring themselves to kill.

I believe we are in an illegal war and the actions are criminal. The longer this goes on without people standing down, the more complicit we become and those involved should be judged accordingly.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Don't blame the troops. Soldiers are not trained to be social workers
I don't want them to be social workers either. I want the military to consist of trained and efficient killers. If you need social workers bring in social workers. If you need the enemy killed bring in the troops. Abiding by this simple rule saves lives in the long run. As I said don't blame the troops. Blame the idiots who put them in this position. And that goes from the CIC down to the Generals who should have refused to order their men into a situation in which they were not trained for.

Don

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I wasn't addressing how you see it or how I see it
I was addressing how I think a great many Iraqis will see it. I was referring to how I think average Iraqis will see things, not people in the resistance. I think the average Iraqi will blame the U.S. for this much more than they blame their own countrymen. That is usually the way occupations go - the occupying force is almost always seen as the greater evil.

As for myself, I think the whole situation is deplorable. I guess I blame Bush the most, for everything, as he was the one human being on the planet that initiated this chain of events.

I don't even know if the suicide bomber even knew children were around. If he did (I will assume it was a he), he probably rationalized it in his last moments as following orders, or a necessary sacrifice for the greater good. I suspect this is the same rationalization that combatants make all the time, even U.S. combatants in Iraq, when they inadvertently kill children.

It was Bush's choices that put everyone on this path, so ultimately I blame him.

As for Iraqis voting, I pretty much agree with Carter, who said there should be an election, then the U.S. should get out quickly. I don't know how well it will work out for Iraqis in the long run, but I think we have to leave it to them.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. The bombers wanted Americans in the US to notice Bush*s war dead.
The next two debates will be accompanied by mass death, too.

They've learned that Americans are being shielded from their own government's actions in the media and it takes a high body count to get on American TV and affect this country the way 9/11 did.

The resistance is working the same news cycle that the White House is.

Just wait.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Interesting speculation
Everyone is so media-savvy these days, that I don't doubt it at all.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. Allow me to clarify...
I'm not suggesting that our troops are handing out chocolate with malicious intent. I imagine that the opportunity to show kindness to these people comes as a great relief to those who serve our country in the bleakest of circumstances.

At the same time, however, I can't help but wonder if many Iraqis wouldn't take offense...as if a chocolate bar offering was intended to be adequate recompense for a loved ones lost limbs.

It's surely better to be kind to those whose country we are tearing apart than to torture them in prisons...better to try to make friends than reinforce hatred. It would've been better still if we'd never invaded their country.

Welcome to DU, by the way. :hi:
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
40. This thread is sick.
Picture those young soldiers doing their best to do something NICE for these kids, and then getting blown up by a car bomb.

Those soldiers made an honest mistake, and people getting down on them, after they're DEAD trying to do something NICE, oughta be ashamed.
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FrozenNorth Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Just when I thought everyone here
was morally bankrupt. Thanks for stating what I was thinking. Since I have less that 1000 posts the fear of being banned for not being a yes-man rules what I say. God knows calling someone out for being a total bastard is a sure way to being banned.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. It's best to discuss the matter before
labeling someone a total bastard, wouldn't you say?
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Dulcinea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. My heart breaks for those parents.
The bottom line is that those poor kids, and soldiers, are DEAD.

What did this war have to do with them? (The kids, I mean.)
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Alot of those soldiers really aren't that much older than those kids. (nt)
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-01-04 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
54. Caller to Malloy just cited a report that indicates that Allawi told
teachers to get the kids out to go to the soldiers, under threat of losing their jobs. The reporters, both Islamic reporters, I think, said that Iraqi parents were not willingly sending their kids out in the street to greet Americans. Malloy was really disgusted by this report.

Sorry, I couldn't catch the name of the source (web). One of the writers had the last name of "Hamad" from what I remember.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
56. Children always go up to soldiers
Whether they give out candy or not. They follow them wherever they go. To somehow blame them for using them as human shields or what not is extremely disingenuous. This is the type of situation where Occam's Razor comes in handy. Truly, the most simple reason is the one that is most true. Children love following soldiers and soldiers love giving them gifts.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-04 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
57. Just read Negroponte. This is his MO.
Everything has gone to shit since he was put in place. Negroponte, Iran-Contra. Did anyone believe anything would be different? Standard Operating Procedure - Negroponte, Allawi (CIA asset). Hello?
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