Kerry accuses Bush of lying about debate

[onehandle]

The L word. You wanted it. You got it.
_______________________________

WASHINGTON (AP) -- John Kerry on Saturday looked to frame the next presidential debate in a speech criticizing President Bush's economic record, but also tried to get in a final word about their last face-off by declaring himself the winner and Bush a liar.

"George Bush lost the debate," an announcer says in a television ad Kerry's campaign unveiled Saturday. "Now he's lying about it."

The Democratic presidential candidate's accusation comes two days after his first debate with Bush, when he told moderator Jim Lehrer that he avoids saying that the president is lying to the American people.

"I've never, ever used the harshest word, as you did just then," Kerry said. "And I try not to, but I'll nevertheless tell you that I think he has not been candid with the American people."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kerry.ap/index.html

[JI7]

1. Kerry should bring up his defending the nation as a young man again

but this time he should also include something like : as a young man i did not ask anyone else whether to defend my country , i did not WAIT TO BE CALLED UP etc. i saw my men were in danger and did what i had to do to defend them.

[Dickie Flatt]

2. K/E Press Release and VIDEO here

Link

[sonicx]

3. good ad, he uses the new york times article on cooked intel. nt

[Beetwasher]

4. This Is Brilliant On So Many Levels

Where do I even begin. He knows what he's doing, this WAS the perfect time to really drop the "L" bomb...As the unquestionable winner it was HIS chance to create the spin and he struck hard w/ the "L" word...Beautiful, just beautiful.

I'll say it again, JK knows exactly what he's doing. If he had been calling Bush a liar all along, it wouldn't be news now at this crucial moment, it wouldn't be as fresh or effective...So many wanted Bush to be called a liar by Kerry all along. This is why he wasn't doing it.

[ThePhilosopher04]

7. It's just more fodder for the FLIP-FLOP charge IMO....

they'll say, "Kerry says Bush isn't a liar, now he says he is," I don't think it's a wise ad at all.

[Beetwasher]

8. Too Bad Ne Never Said Bush Isn't A Liar

Where did he say that?

[St. Jarvitude]

19. That doesn't matter to the sheeple

Remember, these are the same folks who believed that John Kerry would not supply the troops :eyes:

[jobycom]

26. That's exactly why Kerry is doing it

First, Kerry didn't say Bush wasn't a liar, he very clearly said "Bush has misled," but he said he had been careful not to use the harshest term. People will see the difference, especially if he runs another ad showing it.

But he's running this ad now precisely because he knows people won't get it on their own. If Bush gets away with his twisting of Kerry's words, then Bush begins to steal the debate from Kerry. If Kerry fights back swiftly and with the harshest terms, people will remember Kerry's defense more vividly. It prevents Bush from stealing the victory.

Not to mention that if Bush tries to claim Kerry flip-flopped on the liar issue, Kerry will get to rerun one of the most powerful moments in the debate, over and over. Rove is too smart to do that. They won't take Kerry on head-on. They will find another route to spread their slanders.

[Mokito]

9. He never said "bush isn't a liar"

He said he never used the "L" word before.

[Dogmudgeon]

11. No; it's "flip-flop"-proof

No way does Team Bush want to use the word "Liar" within fifty paragraphs of the word "Bush".

It's difficult to deny when such a loaded, explosive term is used. This may be why Kerry has waited to use it.

--bkl

[jobycom]

24. Right you are

Notice, too, that Kerry is finally using the L word only because Bush is lying about HIM, not about the war, terror, or anything else.

When Bush lied about Iraq in the debate, Kerry gently, and memorably, corrected him. No labels necessary.

Now Bush is lying about Kerry directly. Now Kerry can use the L word, and show proof from the debate, and the image sticks, and now the more Bush tries to slander him, the more people will link that word to what he has said.

If he had run around calling Bush a liar for the whole campaign, no one would talk the charge seriously this time. If he had called Bush a liar while behind, it would look like desperate mud-slinging.

Now it looks like a superior statesman chastising a desperate politician while defending his own honor-- an honor that has been repeatedly slandered.

There's one more element: Gore's debate victories were turned to losses when he let Bush and Bush's PR department (the media) slander him afterwards. They invented the Kailey Ellis story, the invented the sighs (no one mentioned the sighs post-debate, it all came with Bush's spin), etc. Gore led going into the debates and coming out, but the Bush slanders spun it around.

Kerry was waiting for Bush, this time. He knew the slander was coming, and he's going to leap on it like an angry predator, before it has time to become "conventional wisdom." That was Clinton's strategy, now it's Kerry's.

I agree, Beetwasher, Kerry is brilliant. He's got a tremendous sense for biding his time, and attacking when most effective.

[JusticeForAll]

5. I'd pull this ad in a minute

For many reasons. They need to do better than this. Sorry but I refuse to give the opposition fodder to attack back...but this ad sucks.

Look at "Reasons" and compare it with this one. The K-E campaign has gone off track - I hope Kerry stays on.

(on edit: removed a mistyped word, the K-E should have removed a few from their ad...)

[montana500]

6. disagree

This ad is good. Gotta disagree. In a few seconds it refutes Bush's lies, and then links him to the Iraq mess.

[Spangle]

10. They are going to attack no matter what

Either attacking the other guys tie, how he kisses his wife, etc.

I rather them have to defend against this statement. It puts the topic out there and their people have to discuss it.

[Berserker]

15. This ad dosen't suck

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_1003.html

It tells the truth. Why would you want to pull and ad that does that.

Script:

Narrator: “George Bush lost the debate. Now he’s lying about it. This is what you heard John Kerry really say:

John Kerry: “The president always has the right for pre-emptive strike.”

John Kerry: “I will hunt and kill the terrorists, wherever they are.”

Narrator: “But here’s something new about George Bush – newspapers report he withheld key intelligence information from the American public so he could overstate the threat Iraq posed. Bush rushed us into war. Now we’re paying the price. It’s time for a fresh start.”

John Kerry: “I’m John Kerry and I approved this message.”

[JusticeForAll]

20. Consider this

Posts 5, 6, and 7 from this locked thread sum it up pretty nicely why this ad is so bad. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x880955

Since these DU members effectively pointed out the major flaws of this ad, here's a few more:

1) The indictment of "liar" should never be used unless some other official body uses it first (remember Senate hearings with Clinton?). Let the American people come to their own conclusions especially when dealing with something so serious and when our "proof", especially about this issue, is never even stated in this ad.

2) If you are going to print quotes, make sure you have spelled all the words correctly, especially if you are running on the platform of "My candidate is smarter than your candidate"

3) This ad has more twists and turns in topic in 30 seconds it almost feels like a Kerry pre-debate meandering speech. Simple is better and more effective (haven't we learned anything in four years?). For the average TV mentality to meaningfully grasp all that is said, the ad has to be replayed several times to someone with undivided attention - not good commercial fodder.

4) "Geroge Bush lost the debate" - highly subjective, and frankly a real stupid comment. We can easily win the battle but lose the war with this one. Why do we want to act as childish and with as much hubris as their stupid administration has acted these past four years? Again, K-E should keep providing proof instead of editorializing. The more you provide that proof, the stronger the conviction against W* our voters will have.

By all means, keep pounding the Iraq war, (http://www.johnkerry.com/tv/ "Reasons") instead of W*'s lame-ass behavior post-debate.

[SemperEadem]

27. w's lame-ass post debate behavior is what sunk Gore 4 years ago

and Gore didn't come back and slap him down on it. bush's myrmidons and the media went on a lying rampage and Gore played nice with everyone, believing that he was dealing with gentlemen/women with honor and principle. That is the glaring mistake that Kerry has avoided in this election cycle. He knows that he's dealing with borderline criminals who have a thief running their enterprise for the white house and control of this country.

bush has outright lied in the face of irrefutable proof to the contrary and being called on it is a sign that Kerry's not going to allow the media or bush's handlers/spinners to define him any longer--especially after the success of the Thursday debate. Kerry has taken a path to see it forthcoming, and therefore when bush locked into step--as expected--he was ready with his response to shut it down.

The time for playing nice is so over it's not funny.

[DustMolecule]

37. myrmidons ... I've never even SEEN that word before in my life...good word

myrmidon 1. any of a tribe of Thessalian wariors who, according to Greek legend, fought under Achilles, their king, in the Trojan War. 2. an unquestioning follower or subordinate.

(Thank you SemperEadem for using that word and expanding my vocabulary! :-) )

P.S.S. (I wish I could type this post really 'small' b/c it doesn't add to the subject matter at hand, but I'm still grateful for it!)

[The Magistrate]

35. It Is, Mr. All, A Superb Advertisement

It is a well-timed, and most effective blow. You will hear a good deal more of such blunt and powerful language in the coming weeks, and it will be heeded by a great many people, who already know it to be true. For the fact is that the criminals of the '00 Coup are barefaced and shameless liars, and a sizeable proportion of the people know it. They will be greatly heratened in their conviction of that fact by its clear enunciation emmitting from Sen. Kerry and his campaign.

"There will be a holiday in our street soon!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[iamjoy]

30. I Liked Reasons Better Too

but what words were mispelled? Missed it somehow.

[JusticeForAll]

33. Preemptive

Either hyphenated or unhyphenated...

the ad spells it "premptive."

[fob]

34. I'll have to take your word for it because I just watched it and it's

spelled correctly. 8:50pm pacific time

[JusticeForAll]

38. Thanks for taking my word

They did change it. As of 11 am PST, this morning, it was still premptive, tonight it is spelled correctly...I imagine they are reading their e-mail!

[sr_pacifica]

32. I haven't seen the ad but

I think using the term "lie" or "lying" is not as loaded when used in an ad. However, it would have been a mistake for Kerry to use those words in the debate. He's right to avoid them because it could appear disrespectful to the office of president to the many uncommitted voters who were watching. And they are the ones he needs to win over. The strong Bush and strong Kerry people have their minds made up and are not going to be swayed by debates. Kerry is being mindful about the effect of his words. He deliberately did not call Bush a liar knowing how that would come across to the viewers and knowing that would be fodder for the Bush campaign.

[TaleWgnDg]

12. it's about time . . . no more northeast "civility" . . . call it as it is!

[leftchick]

13. LIAR, LIAR!

pants on fire!!!

[Disturbed]

14. Mr. Bush is a pathological liar.

Kerry and Edwards should say this often with an example, a different one each time.

Who gives a shit what the Neo Fascists retort?

[NNN0LHI]

16. Bush confirmed to the nation Thursday night that he IS a liar

The polls reflected that. Kerry is just confirming what the majority of Americans believe. After all. Bush a frigging liar. Can someone (anyone) refute that? Waiting... Foot tapping... Yawning... No takers? Didn't think so.

Don

[wishlist]

17. Gen. McPeak read Kerry's full statement about 'global test',Bushco lied

Gen. McPeak was great today on I believe MSNBC where he demolished Bushco's new talking point on Kerry's position on when he would take America to war. He read the full text of Kerry's words in the debate in context and showed how much Bush is misleading the public about what Kerry actually said.

[The Magistrate]

36. Indeed, Sir

And the point Sen. Kerry made is a very sound one, familiar to anyone who has ever had occassion to really fight: it is good to have the crowd on your side, and worth a little effort to achieve it in the prelimaries to the first blow being struck....

"What I got here is two ass-holes and one baseball bat!"

"LET'S GO GET THOE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[w4rma]

18. The "journalist" is trying to make it sound like Kerry said that Bush was

lying about who won the debate rather than talking about Bush's lies about policy.

[kentuck]

21. Even Bush is not so stupid to come out and say..

"I am not a liar.."

Remember, "I am not a crook.." made people think the exact opposite.

[belle]

22. Per "harshest word:" "Hey, there's a first time for everything."

"I said I tried not to, but now he's got me mad."

Kerry should say, if asked.

[wysiwyg]

23. Edwards vs Cheney?

I assume John Edwards won't hesitate to use that particular "L-word" in his debate with Cheney.

[Occulus]

25. I sincerely hope

Edwards is treating his debate with Cheney as he would in his preparations for trial. I'm betting all his experience as a lawyer will be something Cheney is completely unprepared to handle.

Look for Edwards to treat everything he says in his debate as a closing argument in front of a jury- because, at least in some respects, that's exactly what it is.

If he treats Cheney like a crooked corporate witness testifying on the stand, Cheney's heart just might give out right there on stage.

[Dr Fate]

28. Team Bush must avoid discussing this ad at all...

...the last thing they need is a discussion of whether Bush is a "liar" or not.

[iamjoy]

29. Ad May Never Air

The article says sometimes the campaign comes up with ads just to get publicity. That may be the case with this.

It's all about the spin, could come up as "another flip flop by Kerry" and be bad, right when he was trying to get past that rap. But, it could focus the discussion on George Bush's honesty (or lack.)

[Democat]

31. The ad is too cocky, there are two debates left - pull the ad!

Let the media say Kerry won, don't do it yourself when everything is already going your way.