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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:22 PM
Original message
Bush camp denies new report on prewar Iraq intelligence
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&ncid=703&e=7&u=/afp/20041003/ts_alt_afp/us_vote

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Already scrambling to make up ground lost after last week's debate, US President George W. Bush (news - web sites)'s campaign was forced further on the defensive by a report that the White House knew before invading Iraq (news - web sites) that key intelligence on the country's alleged nuclear weapons program was questionable.


National security adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) said Sunday she knew of a debate within the US government about the purpose of aluminum tubes found in Iraq, which she and other officials had brandished before the war as proof of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s nuclear ambitions.


In a series of television interviews Sunday, Rice insisted, however, that she only later learned that the Energy Department believed the aluminum tubes were actually meant for conventional weapons, denying a New York Times report that she knew of those concerns before wielding the tubes as evidence in her argument for war.


"At that time we understood there were some debates within the intelligence community. I later learned that the Energy Department believed that these tubes might be for something else," she told NBC television's "Today" show.

more

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. I hope JK runs with this....
Apparently he did not "see the same intelligence bush* did"!!!
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That was one BIG thing Kerry let slide the other night
Holbrooke brought it up, though, on This Week on ABC.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Watch him - JK seems to be proving lately that it's not just comedy...
...where timing is everything.

23.


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leQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. that lie is catching fire
lockhart had to correct bob schieffer this morning on the same thing. and again, tonite's nbc evening news had gloria borger (someone would have lots of fun wearing a mask of her for halloween) on repeating the same thing about how JK saw the same intel.

it's another lie that everybody's running with, and needs correcting before it gets engrained into the public's perception.

i understand there's a new ad campaign using the "L" word. i trust this breaks that barrier of respect for the 'office of president' and gets hammered like a carpenter on caffeine.

and notice how samarra hasn't robbed kerrry of the headlines. it's pathetic. they killed some hundred "rebels", and yet "insurgents" blew up another car. but we're fighting 'terrorists' over there so they won't do another 9/11. make sense to you?
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nostalgicaboutmyfutr Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. well........
maybe they both looked at the same intelligence....one of them had a lot more reason to know the intelligence was false or made up...

I believe that they both looked at the same evidense...but bush knew that the evidense was shakey or made up...
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. The White House learned the tubes were for rockets and covered it up.
That's detailed thoroughly in the NYT article today. That's why they kept running with the also discredited Yellowcake memo. The invasion was already being mobilised and they weren't gonna stop for nothin'!

Here are the key passages from the NYT article I snipped for a friend's edification, a short version and a long one:

(Short version of NYT excerpts)

1)One analyst summed it up this way: the tubes were so poorly suited for centrifuges, he told Senate investigators, that if Iraq truly wanted to use them this way, "we should just give them the tubes."

2) From April 2001 to September 2002, the agency wrote at least 15 reports on the tubes. Many were sent only to high-level policy makers, including President Bush, and did not circulate to other intelligence agencies.

3)The C.I.A. theory was in trouble, and senior members of the Bush administration seemed to know it. Also that January, White House officials who were drafting what would become Secretary Powell's speech to the Security Council sent word to the intelligence community that they believed "the nuclear case was weak," the Senate report said.

4)In an interview, a senior administration official said it was widely understood all along at the White House that the evidence of a nuclear threat was piecemeal and weaker than that for other unconventional arms.

But rather than withdraw the nuclear card - a step that could have undermined United States credibility just as tens of thousands of troops were being airlifted to the region - the White House cast about for new arguments and evidence to support it.

5) When rocket engineers at the Defense Department were approached by the C.I.A. and asked to compare the Iraqi tubes with American ones, the engineers said the tubes "were perfectly usable for rockets." The agency analysts did not appear pleased. One rocket engineer complained to Senate investigators that the analysts had "an agenda" and were trying "to bias us" into agreeing that the Iraqi tubes were not fit for rockets.
.......................................

(And now here's the longer version of NYT excerpts)

>snip<

The intelligence community embarked on an ambitious international operation to intercept the tubes before they could get to Iraq. The big break came in June 2001: a shipment was seized in Jordan.

At the Energy Department, those examining the tubes included scientists who had spent decades designing and working on centrifuges, and intelligence officers steeped in the tricky business of tracking the nuclear ambitions of America's enemies. They included Dr. Jon A. Kreykes, head of Oak Ridge's national security advanced technology group; Dr. Duane F. Starr, an expert on nuclear proliferation threats; and Dr. Edward Von Halle, a retired Oak Ridge nuclear expert. Dr. Houston G. Wood III, a professor of engineering at the University of Virginia who had helped design the 40-foot American centrifuge, advised the team and consulted with Dr. Zippe.

On questions about nuclear centrifuges, this was unambiguously the A-Team of the intelligence community, many experts say.

On Aug. 17, 2001, weeks before the twin towers fell, the team published a secret Technical Intelligence Note, a detailed analysis that laid out its doubts about the tubes' suitability for centrifuges. First, in size and material, the tubes were very different from those Iraq had used in its centrifuge prototypes before the first gulf war. Those models used tubes that were nearly twice as wide and made of exotic materials that performed far better than aluminum. "Aluminum was a huge step backwards," Dr. Wood recalled.

In fact, the team could find no centrifuge machines "deployed in a production environment" that used such narrow tubes. Their walls were three times too thick for "favorable use" in a centrifuge, the team wrote. They were also anodized, meaning they had a special coating to protect them from weather. Anodized tubes, the team pointed out, are "not consistent" with a uranium centrifuge because the coating can produce bad reactions with uranium gas.

>snip<

By year's end, Energy Department analysts published a classified report that even more firmly rejected the theory that the tubes could work as rotors in a 1950's Zippe centrifuge. These particular Zippe centrifuges, they noted, were especially ill suited for bomb making. They were a prototype designed for laboratory experiments, operating as single units. To produce enough enriched uranium to make just one bomb a year, Iraq would need up to 16,000 of them working in concert, a challenge for even the most sophisticated centrifuge plants. Iraq had never made more than a dozen centrifuge prototypes. Half failed when rotors broke. Of the rest, one actually worked to enrich uranium, said Dr. Mahdi Obeidi, who once ran Iraq's centrifuge program.

The Energy Department team concluded it was "unlikely that anyone" could build a centrifuge site capable of producing significant amounts of enriched uranium "based on these tubes." One analyst summed it up this way: the tubes were so poorly suited for centrifuges, he told Senate investigators, that if Iraq truly wanted to use them this way, "we should just give them the tubes."

>snip<

From April 2001 to September 2002, the agency wrote at least 15 reports on the tubes. Many were sent only to high-level policy makers, including President Bush, and did not circulate to other intelligence agencies.

>snip<

Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency immediately zeroed in on the tubes. The team quickly arranged a field trip to the Nasser metal fabrication factory, where they found 13,000 completed rockets, all produced from 7075-T6 aluminum tubes. The Iraqi rocket engineers explained that they had been shopping for more tubes because their supply was running low. Why order tubes with such tight tolerances? An Iraqi engineer said they wanted to improve the rocket's accuracy without making major design changes. Design documents and procurement records confirmed his account. The inspectors solved another mystery. The tubes intercepted in Jordan had been anodized, given a protective coating. The Iraqis had a simple explanation: they wanted the new tubes protected from the elements. Sure enough, the inspectors found that many thousands of the older tubes, which had no special coating, were corroded because they had been stored outside.

>snip<


The C.I.A. theory was in trouble, and senior members of the Bush administration seemed to know it. Also that January, White House officials who were drafting what would become Secretary Powell's speech to the Security Council sent word to the intelligence community that they believed "the nuclear case was weak," the Senate report said.

In an interview, a senior administration official said it was widely understood all along at the White House that the evidence of a nuclear threat was piecemeal and weaker than that for other unconventional arms.

But rather than withdraw the nuclear card - a step that could have undermined United States credibility just as tens of thousands of troops were being airlifted to the region - the White House cast about for new arguments and evidence to support it.

>snip<

In making the case that the tubes were for centrifuges, Mr. Powell made claims that his own intelligence experts had told him were not accurate. Mr. Powell, for example, asserted to the Security Council that the tubes were manufactured to a tolerance "that far exceeds U.S. requirements for comparable rockets."

Yet in a memo written two days earlier, Mr. Powell's intelligence experts had specifically cautioned him about those very same words. "In fact," they explained, "the most comparable U.S. system is a tactical rocket - the U.S. Mark 66 air-launched 70-millimeter rocket - that uses the same, high-grade (7075-T6) aluminum, and that has specifications with similar tolerances."

>snip<

When rocket engineers at the Defense Department were approached by the C.I.A. and asked to compare the Iraqi tubes with American ones, the engineers said the tubes "were perfectly usable for rockets." The agency analysts did not appear pleased. One rocket engineer complained to Senate investigators that the analysts had "an agenda" and were trying "to bias us" into agreeing that the Iraqi tubes were not fit for rockets.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh...come on CBS!! Now's the time for the nail in the coffin!
Release that Niger uranium story on 60 Minutes!!!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. LTTE time!!
Skinner had a post on this last week...

23.


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Randi_Listener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Scramble
The Administration is scambling to find a turd in this pile of shit. Fuck those cocksuckers.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. Whatever. Start packing bitch. Over a 1000 American Ghosts are
coming to haunt you - along with 10s of thousands of Iraqi ghosts. They'll haunt you and the entire Bush administration. They'll haunt intelligence "experts" who weren't. They'll haunt Energy Department officials who chose to keep quiet. They'll haunt the Congress who were too busy to READ the fucking intelligence reports. They'll haunt George Tenet who, for whatever reason, chose to lick White House butt. And, they'll haunt every news editor and reporter who chose to bury this story on the back pages, in the farthest paragraphs of their papers while they beat the drums of war.

You are all guilty.
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oldhat Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Now they've got the CIA on their ass. Crash and burn.
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Kenergy Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Wow! Where'd you get that picture at Oldhat? n/t
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GoBlue Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. if you're curious
Right click on the pic and then select 'properties'. it will show you the url which you can select, paste etc.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. CIA was scapegoated.
Tenet licked the Neo Fascists boots and went along with Powell's lies at the UN. When Tenet wouldn't back off of Chalabi, Bush fired him. He was allowed to resign with the proviso that he keep his mouth shut and not write anything about the things he knows that would bring the Neo Fascists down and possibly charges of War Crimes. What does the Neo Fascist Admin. have on Tenet?

They have perjury under oath to the Congress that could be brought against Tenet among other criminal acts of Tenet. He is silenced.

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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. the same place I got this
Of course a sick mind and photo shop demands that I alter what I find

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DrBB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. Why don't people get FIRED for INCOMPETENCE in this admin???
I mean, I know they're lying. But just try taking 'em at the word, and the question becomes "HOW COME YOU STILL GOT A JOB, CONDI?"

Uhm, I didn't know! Uhm, it was down in the burocraxy somweres! Uhm, I hurd sompin aboud it, but I didn't know! I mean, after all, it's not like it was

a matter of national security or anything!



pant.. pant... pant...

Okay, I'm calm now. But why does an outright admission of blithering ineptitude in a matter of a nuclear threat to the united states by the national fucking security adviser count as an EXCUSE for anything???? Jeebus jumped up Christ in a an unconstitutional sidecar.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. O'Niel got fired.
When some people get fired they fire back. This is why the Neo Fascist rarely fire anyone.

Tenet was fired but allowed to resign. He will stay silent because the Neo Fascists could indict him for crimes.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. if tenet were to talk
and charges were brought against him, if it helps to bring bush down, president kerry could pardon him.

at this point, whatever it takes. tenet should be made to pay, but he'll keep his mouth shut in that scenario.
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ogradda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. i find it completely believable
that condi rice would have no idea. after all it's not her job to know is it? <sarcasm>
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Figureheads are not clued in.
She knows Russian things and corporate oil things and Iran-Contra things, only.

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. C'mon! We all knew it at the TIME!
What the hell does it take for truth to be discovered?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. They Can Deny It All They Want, My Friend
Edited on Sun Oct-03-04 11:20 PM by The Magistrate
The charge is clearly true: it was obviously false to claim the tubes were intended for use in centrifuges, and it was only because of higher-ups knowing what the big boss wanted to hear that this "Joe" was given the run he got.

Rice's defense is even worse than the charge: if she did not know of this dispute, on a matter so genuinely important to the security of the nation as the possible development of nuclear weapons by Hussein, then clearly she is not performing to the job description she is paid to carry out.

"It is worse than a crime: it is a mistake!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. No mistake
she knew
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