LAT: St. Louis Catholics Debate Political Directive (from Archbishop)

[DeepModem Mom]

THE NATION
St. Louis Catholics Debate Political Directive
Voting for a politician who backs same-sex unions or abortion is a 'grave sin,' bishop says.

By P.J. Huffstutter, Times Staff Writer


ST. LOUIS — After Wednesday's morning Masses, Catholic parishioners voiced anger and support for the archbishop of St. Louis, who issued a pastoral letter saying it was a "grave sin" to vote for politicians who supported same-sex marriage, abortion or stem-cell research.

Archbishop Raymond Burke's letter states that voters are violating "the solemn duty to protect human life" if they support politicians who back those issues. The letter — about 6,700 words long — was published Friday in the weekly archdiocesan newspaper and posted on its website.

"Procured abortion and homosexual acts are intrinsically evil, and, as such, can never be justified in any circumstance," Burke wrote. "Although war and capital punishment can rarely be justified, they are not intrinsically evil; neither practice includes the direct intention of killing innocent human beings."

If all candidates in a race support abortion rights or same-sex marriage, then a Catholic can vote without committing sin, according to Burke's letter.

"I don't know what to do," retiree Terrence Praince, 69, said as he left Mass Wednesday at the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis. "I think marriage is wrong, but I'm also against the war. My wife and I are both Democrats. How do we vote?"...


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-catholics7oct07,1,6898912.story?coll=la-home-nation

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Vote your conscience

as I understand it, the Holy Spirit is still alive and well in each person's heart. I'd listen to inner guidance before I took the word of any person, no matter what their title. But I don't know if reliance on this guidance is something taught or believed in by Catholics. Any Catholic out there who can help me out on this?

[MadHound]

2. This is exactly why I left the Catholic Church when I was 12

Along with foreswearing all organized religion at the same time(father's side was Southern Baptist, mother's side Roman Catholic).

So according to this bishop we should overlook the tens of thousands Bush has killed in his war, and vote for him because he supports homophobia, control of women, and the holding back of scientific achievement. Sounds like the Church is remaining true to form.

[olddad56]

38. A twelve step program for recovering Catholics

At one time, a twelve step program for people recovering from Catholicism actually existed in Berkley Ca.

[BootinUp]

3. Listen to the Pope, not this charlatan.

to the lost St. Lous Catholics.

[IndianaGreen]

6. Don't listen to the Pope, he is saying the same thing as Archbishop Burke

Vote your conscience!

[shrike]

13. No, he's not, actually

Latest directive from Rome was one of those insanely worded things that tells Catholics to vote their consciences -- in a roundabout way.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. No, the directive from the Vatican is clear

that Catholics only sin in voting for a pro-choice politician IF that it the only reason they choose to vote for that candidate. It is permissible to vote for a pro-choice candidate if he is otherwise a good candidate and if electing his opponent would do more harm. We are, of course supposed to use our well-informed consciences.

My archbishop has written a letter saying the same thing. News people have often misunderstood what the Vatican (and my bishop) said. They don't understand nuance.

[Beware the Beast Man]

22. I'm telling you- it's like talking to a wall.

But I'm sure you knew that. :)

Is that really the official stance? Do you have a link to a document? If that's the case, kudos to the partisan hacks in the American Church for not telling us.

[Maeve]

29. Here's an article about it from the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3534-2004Sep7.html

"But Ratzinger added: "When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons." "

[Beware the Beast Man]

31. Thanks!

:hi:

[sandnsea]

40. Your archbishop?

Do you have a copy of that letter? Could we try to get that letter as much attention as these right wing letters? I'm so sick of only one side of the Church being presented in the media.

[5thGenDemocrat]

45. Note the headline

It says "St Louis Catholics." This is not the directive of the Pope, it is the personal opinion of some obviously biased right-wing religious crank in Eastern Missouri.
As a Catholic in the Diocese of Saginaw (MI), I am not obligated to follow any directive issued by a bishop in another diocese. Therefore, Archbishop Burke is cordially invited by this lifelong Michigan Catholic to take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut. Saginaw Catholics tend to be more concerned with social justice, racial equality, peaceful resolutions to problems, feeding and clothing the poor, protecting our environment, etc etc etc. Abortion might be a sin but to paraphrase that ol' Protestant, Billy Graham, it isn't the only one. And I don't get to sit in judgment of sin, anyhow.
John Kerry and I have almost exactly the same view on abortion. But I'm voting for Kerry because he won't continue this march toward WWIII, because neither Dopey nor any other Republican has ever thrown a poor person a bone, because I'm a both a Catholic AND a Democrat and always will be, because I think it would be cool to have a Catholic in the White House, because I'd like to have a good job again and because I detest Dopey and all his cronies and all the greed and divisiveness they stand for. The list goes on and on and abortion doesn't even come up on my personal list of voting points.
As I understand it, my list would pass Papal muster. And I'd hazard a guess that the Pope's comments were meant to signal an okay for Catholics to vote against warmongers like Bush, in spite of the Resident's hypocritical and sanctimonious moralizing about the "sanctity of life." There are diplomatic reasons the Pope can't call for Bush's defeat. The Vatican is a country as well as a Church and, thus, shouldn't butt into internal American political matters.
But this letter is a sign-off for American Catholics to freely vote their own consciences. And a big majority, believe me, will vote for Kerry.
If Bush cared about babies, we wouldn't be dropping bombs on little Iraqi and Afghani ones right now. We'd have more children eating properly and attending good schools. The streets would be safe and all the lead paint would be out of the apartments. There'd be health care for all and good jobs for mom and dad. We'd be respected by all and, better, we'd respect ourselves and one another.
We could afford all this if we weren't spending bazillions of dollars fighting precisely the wrong war. Poverty, not ideology, breeds terrorism. And pre-emptive war for profit, not abortion, is the greater sin.
John
Bush must go. And the archbishop should mind his own business.

[acmavm]

4. So they're worried about abortion and gay marriage. Well maybe they

better start worrying about voting for a man who advocates the mass murder of women and children and old people for oil. Not to mention the murder of our own children so they can get that oil.

[davhill]

5. The thing to remember about Bishops

is that they tend to be responsive to those who donate large sums to building funds. Those who have large sums to donate tend to be Republican. He is technically correct. If any politician came out and supported laws that required Churches to hold sacremental ceremonies for gay couples, forced women to abort their babies, or mandated the harvesting of unborn human beings who are conceived only for research Catholics shouldn't vote for these things. I no of no American politician who has proposed any of these things.
His views on the current war and capital punishment are distinct minority opinions within the Catholic Church; views which have been renounced by the pope.

[sniffa]

7. voting is a sin

if these fundies vote, they're damning themseLves to an eternity in heLL.

is that what they reaLLy want? :evilgrin:

[flordehinojos]

8. The Catholic Church ought to just stay out of politics.

Jesus said, "Give to Rome what is Rome's and to God what is God's".

[Tight_rope]

9. I agree with you....They need to shut the fuck up!

[reprobate]

10. Any religous organization that advocates for a politician.........

......MUST have it's tax exemptions cancelled. That's the law.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. Catholics are not being told who to vote for.

They're being told about the nuance that makes it possible to vote for a pro-choice candidate while remaining in line with Catholic teaching.

[Renew Deal]

11. Isn't molesting alter boys "intrinsically evil"

Hypocrites

[DemBones DemBones]

19. You mean "altar" boys, not "alter" boys,and your post is

offensive and off-topic. But you knew that.

[Renew Deal]

21. It's not either. It's a question.

Do you want to answer it?

[Forkboy]

24. I think it's a great question

:shrug:

[Beware the Beast Man]

27. Why don't you tell us?

Enlighten us with your views on the church and said molestation of "alter" boys. :eyes:


For the record, molestation of any child is intrinsically evil, and that person should be dealt with accordingly. No argument there.

[Renew Deal]

32. I agree with you.

"For the record, molestation of any child is intrinsically evil, and that person should be dealt with accordingly. No argument there."

[lovuian]

12. I guess the order is out Catholics Vote Bush

Never have I seen a Bishop in America do this blatant ordering in the US where Separation ov Church and State is in our Constitution

and its obvious that Kerry who is a Catholic is the one who they SHOULD Support because he is CATHOLIC...

and here the Church is supporting a NONCATHOLIC Bush

This is coming straight from John Paul ....the Catholic Church is gone over the edge and with this and the hiding of child molesters

I really believe the Catholic Church's leadership have turned fundamentalist and thats dangerous and evil

[shrike]

14. The Vatican is not supporting Bush

Although they are tap-dancing around the issue too much for my taste.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. They're not tap dancing, the position on voting is nuanced.

The media are, in some cases, deliberately misreading the nuance both in Cardinal Ratzinger's letter and in letters from some bishops.

[Inland]

18. You just can't vote for any other candidate without going to hell. Simple

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Grow up and pay attention, please. nt

[Inland]

23. I think I did. What part of the foreigner's letter on American politics

did I miss? Can't vote for Kerry, or Nader. Well, you can. But its a sin. Where's the nuance in that?

Seems to me that a "nuanced" position would be to admit that a vote for a candidate is just a vote. Nobody is making anyone get abortions, or be gay. Nobody is encouraging it. Nobody is DOING it in the voting booth.

A democratic voter is no more committing abortion than the cardinal is committing pederasty.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Have you read Burke's letter? See my post below. nt

[Beware the Beast Man]

30. Nice segue, Inland

Can't bring up anything involving the Church without reverting to the molestation thing. That's a cheap shot. Congrats.

[Inland]

33. Uhhh...just saying that the cardinal ISN'T guilty of pederasty

because he is a prince of a church that has bad priests. I wish that he were half as charitable in not connecting ME to sins like abortion and gay sex just because I vote for people who don't want to criminalize such acts.

Its pointing out how inconsistent and, frankly, morally ambiguous the church is.

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Go to the website of the St. Louis archdiocese and read Burke's letter

for yourself if you really want to know what he said. You can find the website using a search. When our archbishop in Atlanta issued his letter, it was misrepresented in the news media. It, like the Vatican's position, is nuanced, and I'm betting Burke's is as well. ( I don't have time to read it right now but I will later today.)

Look to see if Burke says Catholics may vote for a pro-choice candidate against a pro-life candidate if the pro-life candidate would otherwise do more evil than the pro-choice candidate, and that the only time it's a sin for a Catholic to vote for a pro-choice candidate is if the Catholic voted for him/her only because he/she is pro-choice.

These are loopholes you can drive a truck through!

[Inland]

28. Sorry, doesn't work out that way

Only abortion and gay marriages are listed as "intrinsically evil". Therefore between, say, Bush, who doesn't back anything "intrinsically evil" (as there are justified wars and such) is the morally compelled choice. He is, by definition, not "otherwise more evil."

You would have the letter say that you can simply pick the better candidate in your own opinion. That makes the letter and its specific knock on voting for pro choice candidates meaningless.

While we wish the church had a wholistic approach to voting and morality, it doesn't. In fact, I defy you or anyone else to find a single statement from anywhere near the church that refers to ANY sin besides abortion and gays with reference to voting. Maybe you could find divorce and rubbers if you go back forty years, but probably not.

[WillyT]

34. "Although war and capital punishment can rarely be justified...

they are not intrinsically evil; neither practice includes the direct intention of killing innocent human beings."

No wonder they pray. AFTER you pull the trigger, or flip the switch, you pray that you killed the 'right' guys???

:wtf:

And what ever happened to, "Thou Shall Not Kill"???

Wasn't Crucifixion the capital punishment of the day? I imagine that if Jesus had been tried, convicted, and put to death early last century, people would wear little electric chairs around their necks.

:shrug:

[SaintLouisBlues]

35. At a St. Louis Kerry Rally several weeks ago

A bunch of people were wearing identical T-shirts. On the front it identified them as Catholic.

On the back:

Things To Do On Nov. 2:

1) Vote for Kerry

2) Go To Confession

I laughed and laughed.

[ElectroPrincess]

47. Sounds like "a plan" (my plan!) to me. <eg>

[kcr]

36. it wont matter

This will not have an effect on the election:
http://www.leanleft.com/archives/003667.html

[indypaul]

37. Archbishop Burke:

Your excellency, As the spiritual leader of thousands of
faithful in the Archdiocese of St Louis. Are you expressing
your views of our religion with political overtones, or expressing
political views with religious overtones? In either event your
opinion with respect to how anyone votes in this nation is
beyond any spiritual authority you presume to posses. You
do the Holy Mother Church a grave injustice by attempting to
influence this nation through the ballot box. No one of our
faith believes in the destruction of life. However, we arrive
at that conclusion through the teachings of Christ. NOT the
political edicts and threats of the mere mortal leaders of
the church disguised as such teachings.

[WillyT]

39. Most Excellent - Bravo !!!

:yourock:

[BootinUp]

41. bravo!

Very well put.

[lovuian]

42. Well I know two Catholic friends who have been told to vote

for Bush because of his antiabortion stance.

The Catholic Church got a call from Bush telling them Missouri is needed for Bush camp...and they are bringing out all the pressure they can put to get those votes for Bush.....
and its coming on now cause this is a tight election

And Bishop Burke is no matter what putting pressure on AMERICANS VOTING by issuing the if you vote for a Pro Abortion candidate your commiting a sin and Hey if I knew you did it I'd excommunicate your A$$.....

[PatGund]

43. As if....

As if I needed yet another reason why I'm an *EX*-Catholic......

[deadparrot]

44. I'm a member of the St. Louis archdiocese,

and he's got SO many people pissed off about this, whether they support * or Kerry. This guy isn't making any new friends here.

[DeepModem Mom]

46. Thanks, dp, for a first-hand report --

[deadparrot]

48. No problem.

The jackass actually came to my high school to say Mass last Friday. Ugh.