Kerry blasts Powell over Castro remark

[Mika]

Kerry blasts Powell over Castro remark
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/9854630.htm

Seeking to gain inroads within the critical bloc of Cuban American voters, Sen. John Kerry on Wednesday immediately pounced on remarks made by Secretary of State Colin Powell that suggested Fidel Castro is a problem for Cuba, not ``the rest of the hemisphere.''

Powell's remarks came as he traveled to Brazil this week, and was asked by a reporter about criticism from Latin American leaders who accuse the United States of ``seeing their problems through the lens of Cuba.''

''We don't see everything through the lens of Fidel Castro,'' Powell replied according to a transcript of his remarks posted on the department's website. ``Fidel Castro is a problem for the Cuban people. I don't view him as that much of a problem for the rest of the hemisphere. Certainly not the way he was when I was national security advisor -- 15 years ago . . .''

-

Kerry, whose campaign hopes to siphon even a sliver of the reliably Republican voting bloc from President Bush, rapidly assailed the remarks, calling it ``shocking that the Bush administration is telling the world that Fidel Castro no longer poses a problem for this hemisphere.

''Fidel Castro is a tyrant who brutally oppresses the Cuban people,'' Kerry said in a statement. ``Castro's Cuba is the last bastion of communism in our region and a major obstacle to the triumph of democracy in this hemisphere.''

Now, just which "critical bloc" of Cuban-American voters would Kerry be trying to influence? The worst kind - the CANF kind.

Most Cuban-Americans don't have Cuba or Castro near the top of their list (as indicated in one of many recent polls of Cuban-Americans).

Poll: Cuban-Americans focus is local, not on Cuba or Castro
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/6269237.htm

A major obstacle to the triumph of democracy in this hemisphere? Ha! Kerry should take a breath and remember the US's record regarding democracy in the Americas.

If Cuba is such a problem for this hemisphere then just why would EVERY single country in our hemisphere vote in annual UN votes against the US treatment of Cuba?

Kerry is going in the wrong direction regarding Cuba.



Kerry's stated policy on Cuba:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8848574.htm

Under a Kerry administration Cuba will remain under US sanctions

Under a Kerry administration we will still be travel banned unless our travel is deemed politically worthy by US gov jackboots

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[russian33]

1. I can't believe that in 2004 people still consider Cuba/Castro as a threat

And this is not to criticize Kerry, but US policy towards Cuba/Castro in general...what's he going do to us? Once again, we have good dictators and bad dictators, good Communism (we love China) and bad Communism (Cuba is BAD, BAD!!).

[ladybugg33]

27. I fear that on Cuba and Israel Kerry will be pandering like a toad.

We cannot accomplish all things with this one election. We will just have to be patient and take first things first and eventually elect a President who really does have the best interest of American and the world at heart. Maybe by then Clinton can be re-elected. If they open up the Constitutional flood-gate to allow foreigners to vote the Dems should attach an amendment that US Presidents can serve any number of "non-consequtive" two-term stints.

[Carolab]

94. Nah

DEAN in 2012

[OKNancy]

2. Uh Oh

:(

[shanti]

65. i know....

this doesn't sound good to me either. i'm stunned and disappointed that kerry came out so stridently against castro.:-(

[skooooo]

3. If the US hadn't been so inflexible in dealing with Cuba...

the government probably would have crumbled years ago. Part of what feeds Castro is his ability to play off the America government. Kerry's probably taking this position to get votes. Honest to god, our Cuban policy is the stupidest things in the world.



:eyes:

[Terran]

4. Now that is pandering

Sorry John, but that was just embarrassing. Hope you don't *lose* any votes over that statement.

[Mika]

15. Pandering to the stark minority among Cuban-American voters

Most of whom seek to end the US travel ban on Americans and residents, as well as the extraterritorial US trade sanctions the US places on Cuba (the Helms-Burton Act, for one).

Also, the brutalizing of Cuba doesn't go over well for the majority of Americans.

Poll: Americans don't support Cuban Sanctions
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=770

[Judi Lynn]

17. Interesting poll from Zogby!

This is interesting:

Older respondents - presumably more familiar with the Cold War experience - are slightly more likely than younger respondents to favor ending the embargo (65 and older: 57%, compared to those 18-29: 51%).

Others who favor ending the embargo include: college graduates (62%), African Americans (61%), higher income respondents ($75,000-plus: 61%). Hispanics (45%) Born-again Christians (43%) and conservatives (47%) are significantly less likely to favor ending the embargo.

He has accidently been maneuvered over to the side with "Born-againers," and rightwingers.

Politics can make strange bedfellows, sadly.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. It's called "blurring the edges", or "holding a large umbrella"....

...the goal is to get elected and remove the NeoCons from the centers of power.

[Judi Lynn]

29. As Edwards said, basically, "We can't take 4 more years of this." n/t

[WilliamPitt]

5. *cough* florida in play *cough*

[Mika]

6. It could backfire

Its really too bad that Kerry has former CANF CEO Joe Garcia heading up his campaign in Miami-Dade.

The CANF and Joe Garcia have long held that the US should completely cut off all travel to Cuba, including Cuban-American families, and further isolate and strangle the Cuban people until they change leadership.


The MAJORITY of Cuban-Americans DO NOT agree.


Sadly, once again, the Dems are equally eager to pander to the minority of the most extreme elements within the "exile" community.
:argh:


Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[makhno]

12. CANF

Funny how it is when someone bombs our planes or executes hostages, it's terrorism, but if it's the commies dying, it's a ticket to political influence.

[JanMichael]

76. *cough* it's shameless pandering to reichwingers *cough*

Florida isn't all CANF. I sure hope Kerry's advisors aren't that daft:-)

[makhno]

7. Haha

Fidel Castro is a tyrant who brutally oppresses the Cuban people,'' Kerry said in a statement. ``Castro's Cuba is the last bastion of communism in our region and a major obstacle to the triumph of democracy in this hemisphere.

'tis a great two-party system we've got ourselves in this country. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Oh well, I'll settle for the kinder, gentler imperialism. Take what you can get, citizen.

[krkaufman]

11. Yep. And we can hammer Kerry on this policy *after* the election.

Kerry is at least willing to reconsider positions, so I have hope for a change in Cuba policy over the next 4 years.

[Mika]

14. Why wait. The world sees this as ridiculous US policy.

The world votes against the US every year regarding US policy towards Cuba.

Kerry's Cuba stance is out of step with the world he wants to cooperate in/with.

It doesn't make sense on a national and an international scale. It won't garner any US votes, and it won't garner any international respect.


Its a lose/lose position.


Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[krkaufman]

34. Because Kerry needs to get elected FIRST...

... before Kerry's opinion will mean a damn thing.

[sangh0]

46. "Why wait?"

That may be the most oblivious question I've ever seen. You can't answer that yourself?

[Mika]

49. oblivious? Try reading my post

In sum, my post explained that Kerry would GAIN support for announcing that his admin would be normalizing relations with Cuba. Both from Americans in general (across party lines too), and from the Cuban-American community.

I posted polls relating to this issue in earlier posts.

I am not oblivious to this issue at all.


Why would anyone want to limit the broad support our candidate would gain, both nationally and internationally, by making a bold statement regarding changing the near universally accepted 40+ years of failure that US/Cuba policy has been?


Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[sangh0]

51. Yes, "oblivious"

Even if you don't agree with the answer, it should have been obvious, particularly since the answer has already been posted in this thread.

Furthermore, your claim that Kerry would gain votes if he changed his position on this is nothing more than speculation. What people say on a poll like that is irrelevant to elections. What counts is how many of those will VOTE on the basis of that one issue.

Many of those Cuban-Americans who oppose the sanctions and tough line on Cuba are from a younger generation, and one of the reasons why they are not so passionate about sanction is because they do not identify themselves as Cubans as strongly as the older generation does, making it likely that they are less likely to base their vote on this one issue.

Why would anyone want to limit the broad support our candidate would gain, both nationally and internationally, by making a bold statement regarding changing the near universally accepted 40+ years of failure that US/Cuba policy has been?

Because some of us aren't persuaded by grand claims of increased support based on a poll. Particularly when the claim is coming from someone who doesn't realize how the election has influenced the candidate's rhetoric.

[Mika]

58. A candidacy isn't made up of one issue, it is made up of many

This is one of many.



"Particularly when the claim is coming from someone who doesn't realize how the election has influenced the candidate's rhetoric."


Yeah, right. You're the expert. :crazy:

[sangh0]

63. Then why assume all those Cuban-Americans will vote against sanctions

when it's just one issue amongst many?

[madrchsod]

8. pandering to the

rich ol`e boys from cuba. just how many of these old guys have blood on their hands when the american mob and corperations ruled cuba? to bad kerry is pandering to these thugs for votes he will never receive. the policy statement makes him look foolish

[oneighty]

9. Step one.

Step one: Win the election.

Step two: Do what you said you would not do.

That is how Bush* and his ilk win elections. It works.

180

[noonwitch]

10. I agree with Powell on this one

Castro is a threat to his people, but he no longer has the USSR behind him to make him a direct threat to us. When he dies or leaves office, communism will likely go with him. We do need to have a plan for that eventuality, however, to encourage a democracy to replace his government.

Kerry isn't necessarily wrong-if you view the Cuban people as our immediate neighbors, then it's hard to not have compassion for their situation. Obviously, things are not great there, or so many cubans wouldn't risk their lives in leaky boats to get to Florida. I just think that a good strategy for ending communism in Cuba would be to open up more trade with them. If the people get even a small taste of the potential wealth a free Cuba could get through more open trade with the US (including tourism-they've got a lot going for them- tropics,culture and music, proximity, etc.), they might be more willing to get rid of Castro.

[Mika]

13. A threat to his own people? LOL

In Cuba, the people rule - or they rise up.


I guess that Castro has to "force" Cubans into their high-end universal health care system?

I guess that Castro has to "force" Cubans into their high-end universal education system?


These are NOT the hallmarks of brutal repression -


Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[Judi Lynn]

19. Maybe you should inform the C.I.A. about this!

From an article written in 2000:

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> — Cuban-American exile leaders — and many Republicans in Congress — believe that no Cuban, including Juan Miguel Gonzalez, could withstand the blandishments of a suburban American lifestyle, that he and all other Cubans would gladly trade their “miserable” lives in Cuba for the prosperity of the United States — if only given the chance. Witness House Minority Leader Dick Armey’s invitation to Gonzalez, offering him a tour of a local supermarket. But U.S. intelligence suggests otherwise.

THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.
(snip)

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[sandnsea]

32. Sound like freepers

Some day we'll read:

"The U.S. does not have aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope."

Or are we there already??? I always feel more fearful about my civil rights when Republicans are in control.

What's fought vigorously here is supported in other countries. I'll never understand the far left.

[Judi Lynn]

36. It would be appropriate to recognize the author was quoting the CIA

Some would surmise that the CIA would have its own reasons for putting as dark a cast on Cuba as possible, considering the lengthy, ferocious record of violence it has conducted against Cuba since the Cuban revolution.

It's good to keep things in perspective. If the CIA issues reports stating many of the Cuban people are loyal to their government it would be safe to assume it's an understatement.

The CIA's war against Cuba never ended with the Bay of Pigs, as you would learn if you decided to start researching the subject, which would help for context.

[sandnsea]

50. Yes Judilyn

Cubans are free, free, free. That's why they have to take leaky boats and risk death to get out of their country. Whatever. :eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

55. Just like the Haitians, Mexicans, Colombians, Hondurans, Costa Ricans,

Guatemalans, Haitians, Dominicans, etc., etc.

Remember that Haitians and Domincans flee to both Cuba and to Puerto Rico, as well as other countries, if they can find refuge from really BIG problems.

[Mika]

59. And they aren't offered ANYTHING compared to Cubans arriving here

The USA offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush just announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. It is the US interests section in Cuba that does the criminal background check on the applicants.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits Cuban criminals and felons who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US despite having failed to qualify for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks). Perks like instant work visa, instant green card, instant access to sec 8 taxpayer assisted housing, instant social security, instant welfare, free health care, and more.

These perks are not offered to any other immigrant group, but yet, without the perks offered to Cubans, immigrants still pour into the US from all over the Caribbean and the Latin Americas in leaky boats - many taking far greater risks than Cubans to get here.


Get it? There is no such thing as a Cuban illegal immigrant. Plus, they get perks that no other group is offered.




Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Scootman78]

60. Yep you're right

I believe we keep picking sides on issues we can't resolve. When Hatians come up to American shores in boats, they get kicked right back to sea. When the Cubans come up to American shores in boats, they're often allowed to stay - especially when they set foot on land (Floridians call it the wet foot or dry foot clause).

My question about Cuba: When Fidel dies, will the U.S. invade to spread democracy there too?

As for Israel -

I'm with Michael Moore (from Dude Where's My Country) on the part that the U.S. shouldn't get involved in the whole Israel and Palestine thing. We support Israel's stance that they should have all the land over there and assign Palestine their piece. Why? That reminds me a bit of what I heard about the ghettos in Poland during World War 2. Seems like it would be easy for the Israeli's to surround the Palestinian state. Basically keeping the Palestinians "on a leash".

Israel and Palestine just love killing it seems. If all they want to do is destroy themselves, we shouldn't even bother giving a damn anymore because they'll never care to learn or know what peace is.

I used to feel for the Israeli's as a whole, but now I only care soley about the civilians on both sides that are caught up in the middle of the battle. I think with how right-wing the Israeli government is acting these days, they seem like tyrants. Not really a peaceful way to be progressive and still get what you want, is it? Who knows why Kerry and Edwards support the Israeli's. I guess the U.S. must have something to gain out of all the extermination that's going on. I wish somebody credible in government would finally explain it to us.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. meanwhile, it's the 28th anniversary of Orlando Bosch bombing a Cuban

airliner and killing all 73 people aboard. But that was the act of a "freedom fighter," not a terrorist. So he's an unpunished and protected friend of the Bush family.

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2004/octubre/mart5/41barbad-i.html

[Nancy Waterman]

18. This is pandering and it is a mistake

What happened to telling the truth to the American people. I hope he buttons it on this one.

[Judi Lynn]

20. Glad you mentioned it.

It's quite the achievement: the first mid-air airliner bombing in history. 73 souls lost.




The justice system in Venezuela sentenced two of Bosch's associates, Freddy Lugo and Hernan Ricardo, to twenty years in prison. (The two Venezuelans were released from a Caracas prison in October 1993 after serving half their terms.) Luis Posada Carriles, an anti-Castro Cuban who trained with the CIA in the early Sixties and also was charged with planning the bombing, escaped from prison in 1985 and promptly joined the Reagan administration's covert military operations against the Havana-backed Sandinista regime in Nicaragua. After his last acquittal, Bosch returned to Miami without a visa in 1988. U.S. authorities jailed him because he was wanted for violating parole in 1974 in connection with his conviction for a 1968 bazooka attack on a Havana-bound Polish freighter at the Port of Miami. In 1989, after deeming him a terrorist and a threat to public safety, the first Bush Justice Department decided to deport Bosch but was unable to find a government (other than Cuba) that would accept him. Amid lobbying from Cuban-American political leaders, the Bush administration released Bosch in 1990 after he renounced violence and agreed to be monitored by federal agents.
(snip)

Orlando Bosch, however, is not keeping quiet. Early this month he again denied responsibility for the Cuban airline bombing but added, "There were no innocents on that plane."
(snip)http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2001-12-20/feature.html

He apparently forgets the young fencing team, and the 14 students from Guyana. Sick, nasty guy. Pardoned by George H. W. Bush.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From the exclusion proceedings by acting U.S. Attorney Joe D. Whitley concerning Orlando Bosch:

Exclusion Proceedings For Orlando Bosch Avila

U.S Department of Justice


U.S. Department of Justice
Office of the Associate Attorney General

The Associate Attorney General
Washington, D.C. 20530

FILE:A28 851 622
A11 861 810

IN THE MATTER OF:
ORLANDO BOSCH-AVILA,
APPLICANT

In exclusion proceedings under
section 235 (c) before the
Acting Associate Attorney General

Decision of the Acting Associate Attorney General

INTRODUCTION+
Pursuant to my responsibilities as Acting Associate Attorney General, I have undertaken a review of the Immigration and Naturalization Service's (INS) decision of May 19, 1989 concerning the applications of Orlando Bosch-Avila for admission to the United States and for asylum. This review has included consideration of the decisions of the INS Regional Commissioner and the Commissioner, the submission of Bosch to the Regional Commissioner arguing against exclusion and requesting a hearing on his asylum application, and certain confidential and nonconfidential information respecting Bosch.
-------------------------------
page 2

For 30 years Bosch has been resolute and unwavering in his advocacy of terrorist violence. He has threatened and undertaken violent terrorist acts against numerous targets, including nations friendly toward the United States and their highest officials. He has repeatedly expressed and demonstrated a willingness to cause indiscriminate injury and death. His actions have been those of a terrorist, unfettered by laws or human decency, threatening and inflicting violence without regard to the identity of his victims.

The United States cannot tolerate the inherent inhumanity of terrorism as a way of settling disputes. Appeasement of those who would use force will only breed more terrorists. We must look on terrorism as a universal evil, even if it is directed toward those with whom we have no political sympathy. As United States District Court has eloquently states with respect to this very case, "the evils of terrorism do not become less because of the participants and the cause." Orlando Bosch Avila v. Perry Rivkind, 88-973-C.V.-HOEVELER (S.D. Fla. June 1, 1988) (Order On Petition For Writ of Habeas Corpus). See also Matter of Rivero-Diaz, 12 I & N Dec. 475 (BIA, 1967).

As a result of this review, the conclusion is inescapable that it would be prejudicial to the public interest for the United States to provide a safe haven for Bosch. I have moreover concluded that he is an alien excludable from the United States under 8 U.S.C.- 1182 (a) (27), (28) (ii), (28) (iii), (28) (iv) and (29), and that his applications for asylum and withholding of
-------------------------
page 3

deportation should be and herein are denied. In addition, pursuant to 8 U.S.C. 1225 (c), and after consultation with appropriate security agencies of the United States, I conclude that disclosure of the confidential information upon which this decision is based would be prejudicial to the public interest, safety, or security.
(snip)

Despite his current assertions of oppositions to violence in the United States, his personal history indicates that he will take violent action against any target if he believes it will advance his cause. At this moment, he may or may not truly believe that forsaking violent acts within the United States will advance that cause. But his behavior and beliefs are consistent,
-------------------------
page 12

and the evidence leads me inescapably to the conclusion that Bosch would instigate, plan, and participate in terrorist actions in the United States if and when it served his purposes. I therefore conclude that he is a threat to the national security.
(snip)

~~~~ link ~~~~~

[Minstrel Boy]

23. "There were no innocents on that plane."

Now, if an al Qaeda "mastermind" said such a thing about those who died at the World Trade Center, that would be wrong. But Bosch, well, he receives a presidential pardon.

I should be over my amazement at the decades of hypocricy, but damn, it's enough to induce hysterical blindness!

[Judi Lynn]

25. It IS amazing, surely. I fixed the link to the exclusionary proceedings.

Found out it wasn't working. Very interesting to read, and recognize all Joe D. Whitley's hard work was pitched out by George H. W. Bush for this guy!

~~~~ link ~~~~

[MrPrax]

21. Rather than say something original...

I will just scroll and post other people's political opinions...

'Fidel Castro is a tyrant who brutally oppresses the Cuban people,'' Kerry said in a statement. ``Castro's Cuba is the last bastion of communism in our region and a major obstacle to the triumph of democracy in this hemisphere.'

• *Then started foaming at the mouth, bit a cop and got tranked on the spot...What a significant line of reason.
  
  
• *Is he a a member of the human race? Hand in gay card too while at it.
  
  
• *Someone call the men in the white coats. This guy needs medicating.
  
  
• *hey 'Kerry', please think before engaging mouth...you're not making any sense.
  
  
• *Just when you think 'Kerry' is at his craziest...He goes the extra mile to prove he's fucking nuts.
  

Couldn't resist...

[JVS]

22. Is this a pander, or just attacking Powell for the sake of attacking the..

administration?

Bush might be an ass, but if he told me that I need oxygen to live, I wouldn't try to do without it out of spite.

typo

[geek tragedy]

24. Politics sucks sometimes.

Btw, I wouldn't be surprised if Kerry used the fact that Allawi's government arrested someone for traveling to Israel.

Just to create a shitstorm on the other side.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. Kerry's making inroads into the anti-Castro Cuban community...

...something that has never been done before by a Democratic candidate for President.

By the way...Kerry's trying to win an election just in case anyone here has failed to grasp that salient point. And Florida is definitely in play.

[dolstein]

37. DELETED

[DerekG]

30. I'm constantly reminded why I'm not a yellow-dog Democrat

I can't believe I'd take the side of Powell on anything.

[grandg]

31. Strengthen those travel bans...

How about Bush's translator Fred Burke being prosecuted for illegally travelling to Cuba? Perhaps it is because he has been hanging out with Mike Ruppert.

[Supersedeas]

33. Castro no longer poses problem when Jeb make ethnic vote irrelevant

[Zhade]

35. God DAMN it, Kerry! Thanks for making me agree with POWELL.

Now I need a fucking shower.

Every time - EVERY TIME - I start to like Kerry, he opens his mouth and says some stupid neoliberal imperialist shit like this. Jesus.

[ozone_man]

53. Just when I was thinking he had some redeeming qualities

he goes and blows it again. He's trying to out do Bush from the right again. He is indistinguishable from Bush on Cuba, Venezuela, Israel and Iraq.

[dolstein]

38. Kerry panders to Cuban Americans; DU'ers pander to Commie dictators

In this pandering contest, I'll side with Kerry.

[Mika]

39. LOL

If there's any contest, I side with the people's right to their own country's sovereignty.


I side with American's rights to their hard won freedoms.

I also side with Cuban's rights to their hard won freedoms.





Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Judi Lynn]

40. Truly. What could be more logical?

The concept of respecting others is hard for some to grasp.

Spending the time to become informed on Cuban history, the history of US-Cuban relations, the history of US relations with the rest of Latin America is too demanding a task, so they continue to address the subject from their untested positions formed by decades of right-wing propaganda.

How can it NEVER occur to them they've been using crap for knowledge?

[sangh0]

47. So it's "logical" to let people have their sovereignity

by doing nothing to remove the dictator who oppresses them?

:crazy:

[Judi Lynn]

54. It would be helpful if you provided some actual references to "oppression"

by the dicatator towards the citizens of Cuba.

Don't bother including the U.S. paid "independent journalists" our own Congress has ceded large outlays of cash and gifts over the years, and the "independent librarians."

Take time to start doing research on this. Read what the CIA has said about Cuba and the relationship by the people to the government.

BE INFORMED before trying to communicate. It really would speed things up.

[sangh0]

62. What's wrong with US paid journalists?

Why is Castro so afraid of a little propoganda? What did those "journalists" do that was so wrong?

BE INFORMED before trying to communicate. It really would speed things up.

It's yours and Mika's assumed superiority of knowledge that makes me question your conclusions. The inability to notice that I haven't said one word in support of our Cuba policy hasn't helped either.

[Judi Lynn]

77. You don't imagine there's anything wrong with citizens of one country

living within it, accepting money and gifts from ANOTHER government to write articles trashing their own country's government?

That is acting as an AGENT of another country. There are laws against it in Cuba, and laws against it here, as well.

[sangh0]

79. No, there isn't anything wrong with that.

Writing articles and passing around petitions are not what I consider "acts of war", nor are they treasonous.

There are laws against it in Cuba, and laws against it here, as well.

You are wrong. There are paid agents of other nations working in the US. They're all over.

[Judi Lynn]

92. Remarks from a librarian with the University of California at Riverside

"Payment for Services Rendered":
US-funded Dissent and the "Independent Libraries Project" in Cuba

Presentation to the Pacific Coast Council on Latin American Studies Nov. 8-9, 2002; East Los Angeles College; Panel "Cuba Today." By Rhonda L. Neugebauer, Bibliographer, Latin American Studies University of California, Riverside

.....The so-called "independent libraries," with their leadership, support and publicity/promotional apparatus outside of Cuba, are acknowledged by their members, supporters and by the U.S. Dept. of State to be part and parcel of a strategy designed in Washington to open up "civil society" in Cuba (whether they want it or not). Yet, the proponents of "independent libraries" never mention the context of their work or the overtly hostile agenda of the supporters of " independent libraries" to the Cuban revolution. Rather, they have focused on framing and shaping a discussion of intellectual freedom in Cuba by criticizing the work of Cuban librarians, by claiming that Cuban libraries have failed to provide alternative, nongovernmental perspectives and analysis in their collections, and by labeling Cuban library professionals as dupes or agents of the Cuban state with no concern for the values of librarianship, unfettered access to information or balanced collections.

The existence of the "independent libraries," their holdings of radical rightwing anti-Castro material, their association with operatives from the U.S. Interests Section and the Miami community who are intent on overthrowing the Cuban government disproves their main argument and rallying cry --that of censorship and severe restrictions on intellectual freedom. With their fax machines, multiple telephones, constant communication with Miami organizations and media, their reporting on events that champion their own narrow experiences in Cuba and their status as "reporters," their work of issuing alarmist and false press releases and being interviewed by foreign library associations and foreign press continues. They have access to phone lines, sometimes multiple phone lines, whereas some of the public libraries in Cuba are still awaiting their phone lines so they can offer Internet access. They have access to foreign press and foreign diplomats, some of whom have worked in tandem with these "dissenters" to misinform U.S. policymakers, the news media and the public at large outside of Cuba.

The fact that these so-called "independent libraries" exist proves that there is some measure of intellectual freedom in Cuba. They apparently have the freedom to dissent, freedom to assemble, freedom to read, and the freedom to collect and distribute materials that criticize the government and that seek to overthrow the government. They are free to accept money from sources outside the country and free to tell their neighbors as well as foreign visitors and the foreign media about their collections, their services, their purpose, their desires to topple the Cuban government, and their connections to and payments by a hostile foreign government. Our visits to these libraries provide evidence to the contrary of what they claim in their communiques and statements to the press.

They do continue to operate; they continue to contribute reports to Radio Marti, Cubanet and other media; they continue to speak to foreign press and to foreign visiting librarians and diplomats. Hence, they continue to be well paid for services rendered.
(snip/)

You'll find material here some of us already know, it should be useful. Don't have time to look for more right now, as I'm attempting to conduct time with spouse. I'll look for more later.

On edit:

Forgot the link!

http://www.nowaroncuba.org/Commentary/Independent_Libraries_Project.htm

[sangh0]

102. More irrelevancies from you

You haven't mentioned anything that's wrong about our government funding "journalists" and librarians in Cuba.

The fact that these so-called "independent libraries" exist proves that there is some measure of intellectual freedom in Cuba.

And what does the fact that some of them have been locked up prove about Cuba's intellectual "freedom"?

[Judi Lynn]

97. I wasn't speaking of the Varela Project.

You should take the time to learn that oddly, the Miami "exile" extremists dispise the Varela Project as it shows Cuban citizen dissidents wish to reform the Cuban government, implementing the dissidents' plans, and it would leave out control by the Miami rightwingnuts. Therefore, they're against it.

Tacky people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Found more on the idea of the U.S. meddling within Cuban domestic affairs:

April 26, 2003

Cuba Crackdown:
A Revolt Against the National Security Strategy?
By ROBERT SANDELS

Since becoming principal officer at the U.S. Interests Section in Havana in September 2002, James Cason has increased official U.S. connections with Cuban dissidents. Entering directly into Cuba domestic politics, Cason helped launch the youth wing of the dissident Partido Liberal Cubano. Nowhere in the world, said Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque, would it be legal for a foreigner to participate in the formation of a political party. In October 2002, Cason invited a group of dissidents to meet with U.S. newspaper editors at his residence in Havana. Although it has become routine for heads of the U.S. mission to seek out dissidents, it was unusual to meet them at home.

Feb. 24 of this year, he participated in a meeting of the dissident Assembly for the Promotion of Civil Society at the home of prominent dissident Marta Beatriz Roque. Also present at the meeting were several reporters to whom Cason repeated his criticisms of President Fidel Castro's government and reaffirmed U.S. support for dissidents.

Cason organized two other such meetings at his residence in March even after receiving a formal complaint from the Foreign Ministry.

In a recent television interview in Miami, Cason said the help he gave dissidents was "moral and spiritual" in nature. But, according to the testimony of several Cuban security agents who infiltrated the organizations that received U.S. support, the Interests Section became a general headquarters and office space for dissidents. Some of them, including Marta Beatriz Roque, had passes signed by Cason that allowed them free access to the Interests Section where they could use computers, telephones, and office machines.

The State Department calls these activities "outreach." However, under the United States Code, similar "outreach" by a foreign diplomat in the United States could result in criminal prosecution and a 10-year prison sentence for anyone "who agrees to operate within the United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or official (Title 18, section 951 of the United States Code).
(snip)

The Cuban government has always maintained that dissidents are created and funded by the U.S. government. Under that rationale, Cuban law makes collaboration with U.S. policy, especially the 1996 Helms-Burton Act, a criminal offense punishable with lengthy prison terms. In 1997, the National Assembly passed the Reaffirmation of Cuban Dignity and Sovereignty Law as an "antidote" for Helms-Burton, and in 1999, the Protection of Cuban National Independence Law, which criminalized any act of cooperation with U.S. policy toward Cuba. These laws are similar to U.S. laws governing activities of unregistered agents of foreign governments. Evidence supporting the Cuban claim that dissidents are mercenaries of the United States is available on U.S. government Web sites. The Web site of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) lists recipients of U.S. funds to support dissidents, independent journalists, independent librarians, and human rights organizations in Cuba.


(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/sandels04262003.html

[sangh0]

104. Laughable

1) Counterpunch is not credible
2) The Cuban exiles do not despise the Varela project
3) There are plenty of American citizens working for foreign govts.
4) The "dissidents" are NOT "mercenaries" as that piece you quoted claims they are. Mercenaries are soldiers who fight in the military.

Most importantly, you haven't stated what is wrong with a govt paying someone in another country to produce propoganda.

[0007]

56. Do you believe ignorant is bliss?

[Minstrel Boy]

41. Thanks Mika

Kennedy, at his death, was preparing to make a rapprochement with Castro. Forty-one years, and so many steps backwards ago.

[dolstein]

42. LOL!

Hard won freedoms? Sure, for Castro, who is free to imprison dissidents.

In case you missed it, people are still risking life and limb to LEAVE Cuba. Whereas people are risking life and limb to ENTER the United States.

[Judi Lynn]

43. They are dying by the hundreds trying to enter from Mexico annually.

They are dying by the hundreds trying to enter from Haiti and the Dominican Republic. We've read fairly recently Dominicans have been trying to "flee" to Puerto Rico, sometimes dying in the process.

From whom are they "fleeing," or is it possible the crushing poverty throughout Latin America and the Caribbean is overwhelming and they are trying to get ANYWHERE where they can find work?

Billions of dollars are sent by the ones who make it to the U.S. from their homes throughout this hemisphere to their remaining loved ones throughout South and Central America and the islands.

There are Haitians who have "fled" to Cuba over the last few decades, as well, and are living there now. One of them was Haiti's beloved magnetic singer, Martha Jean-Claude.

[Mika]

44. That's why Cuban migrants go back to Cuba for vacations?

dolstein, in case you missed it, the majority of the Cuban-American community is upset at the Bush administration because he is restricting their travel to Cuba (Cuban expats are the #1 group in America who go to Cuba). Hmmm.. returning to vacation and visit family in the country they "escaped" from?



BTW, it was the US admin that prevented a group of Cuban scholars from attending a conference here - not Castro.

Block on Cuban Scholars Sparks Protest
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-cuba-scholars,0,1422688.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

October 6, 2004, 6:47 PM EDT

WASHINGTON -- The State Department's decision to deny visas to 65 Cuban scholars seeking to attend a conference in Las Vegas drew protests Wednesday from Congress and academia.

Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall of ignorance and hate!

[Judi Lynn]

45. Isn't it odd? There are Americans who DON'T KNOW that Cuban Americans

were coming and going from Cuba for ages. They simply didn't know.
I didn't know until I was reading an article on the Elián Gonzalez situation in Miami, when he was being held hostage by his drunken great uncle.

I learned Lázaro had met the kid before, on a couple of trips to Cuba, where he journeyed to the town where Juan Miguel lived, and pitched camp in their house, at Juan Miguel's invitation, while the father accomodated his uncle by sleeping in his own car, so the old #### could use his own bed.

When I learned this has been an ordinary event for decades (until the last year or so) I nearly fainted! It flew in the face of all the propaganda I had been fed.

How could people who FLEE, also turn around and go back for vacations? A basically healthy mind would HAVE to wonder, you'd think! Sometimes people simply can't get motivated to use their idle brains. Too much of a hassle.

On edit:
I also remember Lázaro was able to save big bucks by using Juan Miguel's house as his base of operations over staying in a hotel. I read he spent his days fishing, and his evenings in the bars. Great guest, huh?

[sangh0]

48. What's really "odd" is calling American citizens

"Cuban migrants". I guess the people who claim to know so much about Cuban history don't realize that the reason why those people can go to Cuba and come back is because they are American citizens.

I once went to Jamaica. Does that make me a "Jamaican migrant"?

How could people who FLEE, also turn around and go back for vacations? A basically healthy mind would HAVE to wonder, you'd think! Sometimes people simply can't get motivated to use their idle brains. Too much of a hassle.

Maybe you should ask yourself, if Cubans can enter and leave at will, why are so many of them risking their lives to come to the US on flimsy rafts?

A: Cubans are NOT allowed to enter and leave at will. AMERICAN citizens are allowed to enter and leave.

[Judi Lynn]

52. Once again, you also have to ask yourself why hundreds of Mexicans

and South and Central Americans, coming via Mexico, die EACH YEAR trying to come across the border into the U.S.

You also should ask yourself why people are coming BY FLIMSY BOAT froom all over the Caribbean, in hopes of a new life. Cubans are given a full compliment of benefits through the Cuban Adjustment Act, from instant legal status, green card, complete access to Section 8 housing, food stamps, social security, medical treatment, and financial assistance for education.

Try extending that smorgasbord to the rest of the immigrants and see just how damned crowded it gets.

Why don't you ask yourself why your government bans your travel to Cuba? You should take time thinking about it.

[sangh0]

64. Why are the Cubans so poor?

It's the US's fault, right?

Before the US got involved, Cuba was an economic powerhouse.

Yep, and I'm crazy.

[Judi Lynn]

73. You don't imagine the embargo has harmed Cuba?

You simply must not argue from a position of profound ignorance. Making fun of people who have taken the initiative to try to find out what's going on doesn't strengthen your argument.

The U.S. Embargo and the Wrath of God
by Juan Gonzalez
In These Times, March 8, 1998



Havana: Gilberto Duran Torres couldn't devote much attention to Pope John Paul lI's historic visit here in January. While Cuban journalists and thousands of foreign journalists recorded the pope's every move, Duran and the other doctors at Calixto Garcia Hospital, Cuba's largest and most prestigious medical center, spent another hair-raising week quietly concocting their own miracles-a string of patchwork procedures to keep their patients alive.
Duran is chief of the intermediate care unit. He has worked at the hospital for 25 years, but nowadays he watches helplessly as the country's awesome cradle-to-grave, free medical system slowly disintegrates. Duran's department, for instance, is making do with artificial respirators that are more than 20 years old. . . . "We should have at least 12 for my unit," he says. "We have far fewer, and they are always breaking down. When one goes, we don't have the parts to fix it, so we have to search around the city, find a hospital that's not using theirs, and transport it here." So much of the world's advanced medical equipment and drugs are manufactured by U.S. firms that the three-decade-old American embargo is now literally killing Cubans, according to a 1997 report issued by the American Association for World Health (AAWH) following a year-long investigation.
Back in Washington, the proponents of the embargo insist that needed medical supplies can still get to Cuba. But the 300 page AAWH report, "Denial of Food and Medicine: The Impact of the U.S. Embargo on Health and Nutrition in Cuba," provides startling documentation of dozens of cases in which Cuban hospitals could not secure the medicine and equipment they needed because of the sharp restrictions imposed by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.
Dr. Julian Ruiz, a surgeon at Calixto Garcia, recounts his 15-day search last September for a Z-Stent Introducer, a small contraption that he needed to operate on a man with colon cancer. Not one could be found in the country. The manufacturer of the Z-Stent, Wilson Cooke Medical Inc. of Winston-Salem, N.C., refused to sell it to the Cubans. Ruiz' staff, scouring the world, finally found a Z-Stent they could buy in Mexico. By that time, the man's cancer had spread.
Exacerbating the shortages are takeovers of foreign firms by U.S. pharmaceutical companies. In 1995, for example, Upjohn Co. merged with Pharmacia, a major Swedish drug company that had been supplying Cuba with millions of dollars worth of chemotherapy drugs, growth hormones and equipment for its medical labs. Within three months, Pharmacia closed its Havana office and stopped all sales.
That same year, Nunc, a Danish firm that supplied Cuba with materials for HIV and hepatitis screening tests, was absorbed by Sybron International of Wisconsin. Eight days after the merger, Nunc executives notified Cuba by fax: "Much to our regret, we have to inform you that unfortunately our cooperation of many years has to be terminated.... In future, we therefore have to follow the directions laid down by the U.S. Government in relation to Cuba."
Nothing has drawn the Catholic Church and the Cuban government closer together than their mutual opposition to the U.S. blockade of medicine and food supplies to Cuba's people.
"Even in warfare, you don't bomb hospitals and schools," says Patrick Sullivan, the pastor of a church in Santa Clara and the only American priest permanently stationed in the country.
(snip/...)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human_Rights/Cuba_embargo.html

By the way, the General Assembly at the U.N. will be voting to condemn this "harmless" embargo again this year, in November. It has been resoundingly condemned for many years now, with only Israel and occassionally a smaller entity, like the Marshall Islands" (more Coalition of the Threatened or Bribed) to support the U.S. position.

[sangh0]

75. "Before the US got involved, Cuba was an economic powerhouse."

I noticed you didn't even try to refute that. You're great at avoiding the issue of what Castro has done.

[Judi Lynn]

89. You should provide a credible reference for that claim.

Cuba was considered the "Whorehouse of the Caribbean" before the Revolution.

Who isn't aware of Batista's corruption, Mafia gambling, prostitution, drugs, only the meagerest seasonal work for the vast majority of the country's citizens while wealthy ranch and plantation owners, as well as merchants, etc. ran roughshod over everyone. Why on earth do you imagine there were two revolutions?

People protesting Cuba's "powerhouse" status? You need to bring some proof to that one. That's just not sensible, and it can't be bourn out by real history.

[sangh0]

105. That was sarcasm

People protesting Cuba's "powerhouse" status? You need to bring some proof to that one.

That was sarcasm, based on your arguments that Cuba is poor because of the US.

The fact is that Cuba was poor long before the US got involved in Cuba. Cuba was poor before the US even existed, so it would be hard (for reasonable people) to blame the US for Cuba's poverty

Cuba was considered the "Whorehouse of the Caribbean" before the Revolution.

For someone who has repeatedly claimed to have superior knowledge of Cuban history, I'm surprised that I have to point out to you that "before the Revolution" is NOT "before the US got involved in Cuba". The US was involved with Batista before the revolution that brought Castro to power. I spoke of Cuba's poverty and how it's been poor before the US got involved, a point you want to distract from, so you brought up Batista, even though that's not BEFORE the US got involved.

[Judi Lynn]

108. You're going to have to look at what you've been writing here.

In an earlier post you referred to Cuba as having been a "powerhouse."

Now when did that happen? During what time frame?

I'm having a hard time grasping whatever it is you're trying to communicate.

[sangh0]

109. That was sarcasm

I would have thought that someone as knowledgeable as you would have seen the obvious sarcasm there.

I'm having a hard time grasping whatever it is you're trying to communicate.

My point is that Cuba's poverty was not caused by US governemnt policies because Cuba's poverty predates any involvement by the US government in Cuba's affairs.

[H2O Man]

111. Cuban powerhouse:

That statement was made sarcastically. The person that you are debating has noted twice that it was sarcasm, not a serious statement. You need to acknowledge that in order to not do further harm to your position. Otherwise, it appears that you are too emotionally caught up in the debate to process that, or else you are trying to distort the other person's point.

If we were debating Grenada and the Reagan invasion, and I said that Grenada had been a powerhouse, surely no one would pretend that was a serious statement. Except for perhaps Bush & Cheney, because it's possible that some in Grenada wished they were a powerhouse.

[Judi Lynn]

91. Here's an abbreviated look at Cuba prior to the Revolution

Through Lansky, the mafia knew they had a friend in Cuba. Gangster Lucky Luciano, after being deported to Italy in 1946, went to Havana with a false passport. A summit at Havana's Hotel Nacional, with mobsters such as Frank Costello, Vito Genovese, Santo Trafficante Jr., Moe Dalitz and others, confirmed Luciano's authority over the U.S. mob, and coincided with Frank Sinatra's singing debut in Havana. It was here that Lansky gave permission to kill Bugsy Siegel for skimming construction money from the Flamingo in Las Vegas.
Many of Batista's enemies faced the same fate as the ambitious Siegel. One of his most bitter opponents, Antonio Guiteras (founder of the student group Jóven Cuba) was gunned down by government forces in 1935 while waiting for a boat in Matanzas province. Others just seemed to disappear into thin air.

Batista's chance to sit on the president's chair came in 1940. Supported by a coalition of political parties, and by the Communists, he defeated his old rival Grau San Martín in the first presidential election under a new Cuban constitution. During his presidency, trade relations with the U.S. increased, and a series of war taxes were imposed on the Cuban population. In 1944, Grau San Martín was elected president and Batista was forced to relinquish control.

While living luxuriously in Daytona Beach, Florida, Batista ran for and won a seat in the Cuban Senate in 1948. Four years later he was running for president, but a poll published in the December, 1951 issue of the popular magazine "Bohemia" showed him in last place.

The Second Coup

On March 10, 1952, almost twenty years after the Revolt of the Sergeants, Batista took over the government once more, this time against elected Cuban president Carlos Prío Socorras. The coup took place three months before the upcoming elections that he was sure to loose. Also running in that election (for a different office) was a young, energetic lawyer named Fidel Castro. On March 27 Batista's government was formally recognized by U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

Shortly after this recognition, Batista declared that, although he was completely loyal to Cuba's constitution of 1940, constitutional guarantees would have to be temporarily suspended, as well as the right to strike. In April, writes Hugh Thomas in THE CUBAN REVOLUTION, "Batista proclaimed a new constitutional code of 275 articles, claiming that the 'democratic and progressive essence' of the 1940 Constitution was preserved in the new law."

Batista opened the way for large-scale gambling in Havana, and he reorganized the Cuban state so that he and his political appointees could harvest the nation's riches. He announced that his government would match, dollar for dollar, any hotel investment over $1 million, which would include a casino license, and Lansky became the center of the entire Cuban gambling operation.

Under Batista, Cuba became profitable for American business and organized crime. Havana became the "Latin Las Vegas," a playground of choice for wealthy gamblers, and very little was said about democracy, or the rights of the average Cuban. Opposition was swiftly and violently crushed, and many began to fear the new government.
(snip/...)

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/batista.htm

[sangh0]

106. "Before the US got involved, Cuba was an economic powerhouse."

I didn't refer to Cuba's economy "prior to the revolution": I referred to Cuba's economy "before the US got involved" in Cuba.

Once again, you've tried to avoid the issue.

[Judi Lynn]

107. How far back do you imagine you can go before the U.S. was NOT involved

in Cuba? Please see this link concerning a memo by John C. Breckenridge, the Undersecretary of War, Christmas Eve, 1897. It contains these distinguished thoughts:

We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. The allied army must be constantly engaged in reconnaissance and vanguard actions so that the Cuban army is irreparably caught between two fronts and is forced to undertake dangerous and desperate measures.
(snip)

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You will need to provide information showing just when Cuba was a "powerhouse." There IS no record of any Cuban "powerhouse" anywhere but in the feverish imaginations of some Cuban "exile" reactionaries in Miami.

Avoid the issue? Just what do you mean? There IS no issue to avoid. There WAS no Cuban "powerhouse."

You'd better drag out that reference to enlighten us. Post 'em if you got'em.

[sangh0]

110. How far back? How about 1776 or thereabouts?

From another page from the site you linked to:

FOUR-HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS before the Castro brothers and the barbudos marched on the city of Havana, a brave Taíno chief from Hispaniola named Hatuey lead the first guerilla warfare against the conquering Spaniards. Within a few months he was defeated, and for his defiance he was burned alive, his people nearly wiped out. Yet his spirit has lived on in the hearts of Cuban leaders such as José Martí, Antonio Maceo and many others.

This site exists to encourage and facilitate an honest journey of Cuban history, and to humanize the island's 500-year struggle for identity and independence.

Go back 500 years. Start there, and work your way forward.

[H2O Man]

112. The history of US intervention in Cuba

and the rest of the Americas presents one of your stronger debating points. Infant mortality rates and literacy are also important. These two combine to indicate that while the Cuban government has had to deal with a monkey named Uncle Sam on its back, it has made significant improvements in peoples' daily lives. (I also think that Cuban society has had more progressive ethnic - I don't believe in "race" - relationships.)

I'm curious: what would you list as the top three problems or weaknesses in the Cuban government, separate from the US-related problems? I'm thinking that no government is perfect. And no person with mature understanding limits their insights to blaming other people. So what might you see as the problems with Casto's Cuba?

[sangh0]

113. Yes, US policy towards Cuba has slowed their economy

in addition to making it less likely that Cuba will peacefully transition to a democracy after Castro dies, and that is why I oppose the US government's policy towards Cuba. However, when discussing the areas in which Cuba has made progress (ex. health care, education) I think it's important to note that the Cuban economy was subsidized by the USSR during the Cold War and that it's because of the US that Cuba is now nuke-free.

[H2O Man]

114. the missle crisis ....

I have often though -- and of course it is mere speculation -- but that if any of the four presidents (two before/two after) Kennedy had been in office then, there would have been a terible war. Truman, Ike, and LBJ would have resorted to force; I think that Nixon probably would have, too.

That was a period that showed a definite weakness in Castro as a leader. He did not have sense enough to back down, and resented that the USSR did.

There are, of course, numerous good books detailing that crisis. My favorite would be "The Kennedy Tapes: Inside the White House During the Cuban Missle Crisis."(edited by May & Zelikow)

I still hope to hear from our friend who is advocating for Cuba. I think that it is important to be able to acknowledge that Cuba is not entirely perfect, or a victim of circumstance.

[sangh0]

115. What I'm hoping for

is that they acknowledge that helping Kerry get elected (something they're definitely not doing in this thread) is the best thing they could do in the short-term for the people of Cuba. A 2nd bush* term is not going to produce an end or reduction in the sanctions.

[Mika]

120. Prove it. Otherwise, your assertion is laughable

"..that helping Kerry get elected (something they're definitely not doing in this thread).."


Got proof? Like links?

Got any polls you can cite?

I think that you've got nothing to back that up.



Just because you get answers that you don't like (or you don't seem to read) doesn't make it so.

[Mika]

85. Most Cubans were destitute, pre Castro

Then,

Cuba: pre Castro

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.


Now,

Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

Don't let any facts get in your way.



Mr Kerry, Tear down the wall!

[Mika]

57. Wow

:wow:

sangh0, maybe you aren't aware that it is the US government that forbids Americans from travelling to Cuba, although Cuban-Americans and Cuban expats are allowed to go (and under the new Bush regulations, only once every three years for direct relatives).

Cuba doesn't restrict any of them from entering Cuba, and, as a matter of fact, Cuba dropped the visa application requirement for any American and Cuban expat wishing to travel to Cuba.


On the other hand, it is the USA that restricts LEGAL entry into the US by Cubans.


For example,

Block on Cuban Scholars Sparks Protest
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-cuba-scholars,0,1422688.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

October 6, 2004, 6:47 PM EDT

WASHINGTON -- The State Department's decision to deny visas to 65 Cuban scholars seeking to attend a conference in Las Vegas drew protests Wednesday from Congress and academia.

[sangh0]

66. Sophistic crap

You can call me ignorant all you want, but I'm not so stupid as to miss how you neglected to mention if the Cubans living in Cuba are free to travel.

[H2O Man]

67. interesting conversation.

It might be accurate to note that there have been serious errors on both the US and Cuban "sides" over the years. Has Castro been tough on political enemies? Certainly. Has the US done some things over the years that may have contributed to Castro's concerns about political enemies? Certainly. Has Castro's Cuba made great strides in attempting to spread literacy and make health care available to all, with limited resources? Yes. Has Castro's Cuba shown a grasp of some basic economics that might have benefited the population? Not really.

Look at that! One can recognize good and bad in Castro & Cuba, without quarreling and name-calling.

[sangh0]

70. There ya go!

That's someone I could listen to. He can see that there's more than one side to the issue.

[Mika]

72. basic economics that might have benefited the population? Not really?

"Has Castro's Cuba shown a grasp of some basic economics that might have benefited the population? Not really."


So, even though you've mentioned Cuba's good works on health care and ed with such limited resources (BTW, its not an attempt as you say - it is an actuality http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm ), you don't think that this shows a grasp of some basic economics that might have benefited the population?

Hmmm..


I know many Americans that would give their left one for world class universal education & higher ed for their children, and world class universal health care for their extended families, from grandkids to great grandparents.


Americans don't have any Helms-Burton type of extraterritorial sanctions placed on it, America has almost unlimited credit and trade opportunities, but still, we Americans can be wiped out if we or our kids or anyone in our family gets seriously ill because we have no universal health care, and our kids are getting mashed and mired in overcrowded, understaffed, and leaking portables at school.




_________________________________

The GOP's Axis of evil

Universal health care

Universal education

Democracy

_________________________________

[sangh0]

78. Few Americans would trade their freedoms and their standard of living

for an education and health care.

Few Americans do. I wonder why that is?

[Mika]

83. Cubans didn't

The Cuban standard of living has increased. Health care and high end education, as well as sovereignty, are considered to be a part of their standard of living.

Cubans didn't trade it for anything. They built it themselves, for themselves and each other, and their and everyone's children. It really was hard work, but Cubans did it - together.

Do you think that "Castro" singlehandedly forces these things on the Cuban people?

Do you think that "Castro" singlehandedly forces teachers to form unions and teach?

Do you think that "Castro" singlehandedly forces doctors and educators to build out a world class health care system?

Do you think that "Castro" singlehandedly forces parents to send their kids to good schools?

Do you think that "Castro" singlehandedly forces sick Cubans to go to their well trained doctors and specialists?




I wonder why Americans, with all of the wealth of our country, can't seem to accomplish these things for all of its own people.

[H2O Man]

86. Because there is big money

in poverty. Just my opinion, based upon decades of work in human services. I'll give an easy example: landlords make huge profits off buildings with little or no "up-keep" expenses and relatively low property taxes.

There are clearly many sins in the American system, and probably no one on DU is going to take exception with my saying that. But I'm curious -- and I'm not disagreeing per say -- about some of you opinions on Cuba. Clearly some people are trying to leave Cuba, and are willing to risk their lives on rafts to come to the United States. This is consistent with centuries of people taking risks to come to America. Why do you think this is that {a} people try to leave Cuba, and {b} people want to come here? Those are sincere questions, not "tricks" or set-ups.

[Mika]

87. OK

"Why do you think this is that {a} people try to leave Cuba, and {b} people want to come here? "


{a}&{b} For many of the same reasons that American, Canadian, British, German, French, Italian, etc., expats live in other places of the world, some Cubans also do the same. There are Cuban expat communities in many parts of the world. Cubans, by and large, come to live and work in the US for economic reasons, just like most other immigrants from the Caribbean and Latin Americas. No doubt, Cuba is poor, but it does very well on its social infrastructure/safety net. Cubans can (or could until Bush screwed them) return to Cuba to see their families, and they could send a little of what they earn here in the US to their family back at home in Cuba - just like so many other immigrants from the Caribbean and Latin Americas. Difference is, that most people who seek US immigration visas have to get in VERY long lines to get one - not so with Cubans. And Wet Foot/ Dry Foot allows even non applicable immigrants to be waived of any normal immigration requirements. The illegal Cuban entrants are released into the general US population within 24 hours - no matter their background or how they got here. Cubans get a "gold plated invitation" to the US, plus benefits.

[H2O Man]

88. There's a boxer I'm familiar with.....

a Jr. Welterweight, unless he's gained weight, a world-class fighter named Joel Casamayor. Lived in Cuba, and left his family to come to the USA. He's not allowed to return to see his family.

Now, I'm not trying to bluff and pretend I'm any expert on this subject. But while he fits your first criteria ( he came for economic reasons), he doesn't fit the rest. The Cuban government doesn't allow him to visit to see his family. And it doesn't matter if one blames Bush or anyone else. The truth remains it is Cuba. Their government is not perfect.

I should note that I have long believed in normalizing relations between our countries. And I have a friend who has traveled back and forth to Cuba for decades, who has given me a pretty good idea of the strengths and weaknesses of that country.

[Mika]

90. Maybe you could ask him.. for what reason?

I'm not an immigration expert either, but I do know of a lot of Cuban "exiles" in Miami who say the same thing, that Castro prevents them, BUT they really can and have gone there (but they dare not say, so as to not be accused of being a "Castro sympathizer" by the hard liners). Your friend has made quite a bit of fame in the boxing press, much of it mixed in with some "Castro fighting" mystique and hard line anti Castro bravado (when he came to the US for economic reasons).

See if you can find out what the official reason that he is supposedly prevented from visiting his parents in Cuba.




:hi:

[Mika]

84. dupe

sorry

:hi:

[H2O Man]

82. You have me there ....

I erred in my phrasing of the statement. My mistake. Yet clearly I noted that the Cuban system had made great strides in these areas. It has not, however, been a model of a diversified economy that has the ability to bring it out of poverty.

My goal wasn't to trade jabs, or try to impress myself with debater's points. It was, rather, to point out -- correctly -- that the Cuban system has been a mixture of good and bad .... and that a certain amount of that "bad" can be attributed to the hostility and aggression of the United States.

At the same time, my friend, we must all learn to change to master change. That does not imply that I think Cubans have missed the boat if they do not have DVD players and all of the technology that Americans have. Nor do I think that they would be better off with the gambling casinoes that are now on Indian Territory.

Yet, just like individuals, countries play a role in their own circumstance. And Cuba is not perfect. Many of the silly people in this country who project it to be the garden of eden would not be very comfortable in the reality of Cuban life.

[Mika]

68. Did you read the link? It looks like you haven't

The US government is the entity preventing Cubans from traveling to the US, not the Cuban government. In addition to scholars and educators, Cubans that can afford to travel all over the world. Including the US, prior to Bush's new madness. There is a significant Cuban community in Canada, and France, and Germany, and England, as well as in many Latin American countries. They, and their families, all travel freely between Cuba and their, and their family's, host countries.

Sorry, I assumed that you knew that.



_________________________________

The GOP's Axis of evil

Universal health care

Universal education

Democracy

_________________________________

[sangh0]

71. You didn't answer the question, so now you get two

1) Are Cubans free to travel as they please? (Again)

2) So Castro approved when all those Cubans set out in rafts when Clinton was in office?

[Mika]

81. I did answer. You don't seem to read my posts.

1) Yes. (Again) Keep in mind that travel is not free.. one has to be able to afford it, no matter where one lives.

2) No - for humitarian reasons.. the threat of their drowning, and it is illegal according to the joint migration agreement that the US negotiated with Cuba. Wet foot/ dry foot and repatriation.

Keep in mind that Cubans have more legal avenues to get to the US than any other nationality, and those who come illegally have reasons for doing so illegally (they either have failed a US immigration application or they would, due to a background problem), but the US Wet Foot/ Dry Foot allows these Cuban illegal entrants to stay - no matter they might not legally qualify for legal immigration - and get extra perks for Cubans only.





Now I get to ask you a question..


Why would the Cuban government want to keep "dissidents" in Cuba?

[sangh0]

103. Laughable

1) Yes. (Again) Keep in mind that travel is not free.. one has to be able to afford it, no matter where one lives.

I'm amazed that I have to explain that by "free to travel" I was referring to their rights, and not the cost.

2) No - for humitarian reasons.. the threat of their drowning, and it is illegal according to the joint migration agreement that the US negotiated with Cuba. Wet foot/ dry foot and repatriation.

So Castro is afraid that Cubans will drown if they get on a plane? That doesn't make any sense. Once again, you are focusing on a small part (the rafts) in order to avoid the bigger issue of how Castro limits the rights of Cubans to travel.

Why would the Cuban government want to keep "dissidents" in Cuba?

I'll answer your question when you answer mine. Tell me if and how Castro limits the Cuban people's right to travel freely, which you haven't done yet. Whenever I mention this limits on travel, you go right to the Cubans who are trying to get here on rafts, when I am referring to ALL forms of travel.

[Mika]

117. I've answered your question 3 times. Try reading my posts

"I'm amazed that I have to explain that by "free to travel" I was referring to their rights, and not the cost."


Why do you deliberately distort my answers?

I have already answered you bu pointing out that Cubans travel all over the world for vacations, business, education, and pleasure trips (except the US - by US state dept edict) - do I really need to explain to you that they get on a plane to get around the world.

Cubans are eligible for over 20,000 legal visas per year to live the US - do I really need to explain to you that they get on a plane to get here and not on a raft? And, yes, Cubans are free to travel as long as they can afford it, and get time to do it.


Yes, the Cuban government does limit travel - to felons serving time and on parole. Just like the US.


I guess that I have to explain to you that the US government does limit American's freedom to travel, to Cuba for example.



Now, try answering my question - for once.

[Judi Lynn]

69. People living in South Florida are aware that Cubans have had their

relatives visit here in the states in MANY situations. This was common before _Bush. They would come for relatives weddings, for shopping, runs to places like Disney World, they travelled all over the country.

That's why I have suggested you really start trying to find out more about the subject, because it takes up a good deal of time for others to try to 'splain to you what many people already know.

A woman, Ann Louise Bardach, who was a journalist at the New York Times wrote a book, Cuba Confidential, Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana.

From her book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeange in Miami and Havana:

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriates who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero,or comrade) are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.
(snip)

Page xviii, Preface
Cuba Confidential

I would tend to believe her, as she did enormous research on this book, both in the U.S. and in Cuba.

[sangh0]

74. You avoided the issue also. What a surprise!

Ignorant old sangh0 noticed you didn't say that the Cubans are free to travel as they please.

I wonder if you approve of the way Castro sent thousands to their deaths on rafts, if they are so free to travel? And if they're so free to travel, why did they hide their rafts while they building them?

[Judi Lynn]

80. You're not taking time to think, are you?

Did you read Mika's post, in which he patiently explained that the U.S. extends openings for 20,000 Cubans ANNUALLY to come to the U.S.?

This is wildly out of proportion to the actual openings extended to people of ANY other country. Many times this number is by NO MEANS accepted yearly. Each applicant must go through a screening conducted by the U.S. Interests Section in Havana. If it is found they are clear of criminal histories, etc., then they are allowed their visas.

People like the man who brought Elián have criminal records, and cannot be approved by the U.S. Interests Sections. They are CRIMINALS. The only way they can get here is to sneak over. That is for permanent residence.

Did you not read that I told you until _Bush took the President's position, that Cubans have come and gone not only to Florida but points ALL OVER THE U.S.? Did you not read this?

If a Florida D.U.er who knows Cubans who have come and gone, or their relatives, he/she might try to help you understand what you pretend you don't "get." I don't know how it could be any clearer.

I'll check in later.

[sangh0]

101. No, you're making an effort to avoid my points

WHen I ask you if Cubans are free to travel, you respond with irrelevancies like US immigration policies, when I'm asking about Cuba's policies on allowing it's citizens to travel as they please.

There are many nations in the world, and you still haven't stated whether or not Cubans are allowed to travel to and from them as they please.

[Mika]

119. You keep avoiding the answers

Try reading this thread. There are several posts that answer your question.


Condescending attacks on posters, like yours on this thread are puerile.



IMO, based on your immature questions and refusal to read other's posts, what you know about Cuba, I believe, would fit on the head of a pin.. and deliberately so.



Instead of deliberately avoiding answering, why don't you answer the question I posed to you?


Why would the Cuban government want to keep "dissidents" in Cuba?

[Zhade]

61. With Joementum like yours, I'm surprised you're not in office!

*Snort*

WE pander to the truth, I don't know WHAT you pander to.

[Kimber Scott]

93. If Castro had oil, he'd be a problem to the US.

Doncha think? Intentions without oil are meaningless trifles.

[MisterP]

95. think they'll resurrect the biowarfare charge?

or fabricate something new?

[Kimber Scott]

96. Only if he strikes oil. nt

[moondoggie]

98. Looks like a two way street to me, say anything!

Well, I hope the calculus works out. I don't even care anymore, Bush just has to go.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/08/politics/campaign/08trail.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=6bf5a405629bcdec&hp&ex=1097294400&partner=homepage

Mr. Edwards similarly echoed his running mate, charging of the Bush administration in an appearance in Bayonne, N.J., that Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney "are willing to say left is right, up is down."

[Judi Lynn]

99. Cool photo with your article, moondoggie.

Stephen Crowley/The New York Times

Senator John Kerry, speaking on Thursday in Englewood, Colo., said Mr. Bush “won’t face the truth about Iraq.’’

The guy holding the book, wearing khaki pants looks like Mike McCurry, the Clinton Press Secretary recently hired to work with Kerry.


Nice spokesman, Mike McCurry!
Bush's first press guy! (shudder!)

[moondoggie]

100. The NY Times ran some great photos of Edwards during the primaries, too.

I haven't seen an unflattering photo of either Kerry or Edwards, they're just good looking. I'm biased though.


I read your posts on this thread with interest, Judilyn. Here is something I just posted on another thread, just getting my feet wet here (as it were!).


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=890280#891437

[Eloriel]

116. I hate pandering

no matter who does it.

[latebloomer]

118. Really vile

What bullshit. Let's out-right-wing the right-winger, shall we, Mr. Kerry?