WP: American Deserters Find a Mixed Reception in Canada

[kskiska]

TORONTO -- Jeremy Hinzman enlisted in the Army in Boston, did a tour in Afghanistan and prepared for elite Ranger school. Then came orders to go to Iraq. He neatly piled his Army gear in his living room at Fort Bragg and fled to Canada with his wife and baby.

"No matter how much I wanted to, I could not convince myself that killing someone was ever right," Hinzman, 25, said in an interview here.

Spec. Hinzman is a deserter, one of at least four who have followed the path of Vietnam War resisters a generation ago to seek refuge in Canada. Here, they have been embraced by many from that time -- former peaceniks who are now pillars of the community.

The government is less welcoming. Despite Canada's opposition to the Iraq war, the government also is opposing the deserters' refugee applications, saying the soldiers are not persecuted. It is resisting the argument that the Iraq war is illegal.

"Canada is worried if they grant us refugee status, others would come up," said Hinzman.

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A22671-2004Oct10?language=printer

[ilovenicepeople]

1. Screw our government!

in the spirit of Canada I say Welcome deserter's :grouphug:

[Algomas]

2. I met some Vietnam war refugees in Toronto...

many years ago. They were just normal kids like me and my hippy friends. They were very eager to avoid any police encounters that would lead to deportation.

[tuvor]

3. Come on up if you want, but...

whatever happened to being a conscientious objector?

I'm afraid I may be a bit ignorant on the subject.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

4. CO status is difficult to get

First, CO status only applies to the draft, while the article was talking about people already in the military trying to avoid going to Iraq.

To get CO status they usually want to see some proof that this is a long-term belief and that you aren't just trying to avoid the draft. Being a member of a religion with a long history of conscientious objecting helps (like Mennonite or Quaker) as does having some documentation dating back to before the threat of the draft. For example, I have some essays that I wrote back in high school detailing my beliefs about going to war. In addition, when I registered I wrote in the margins of the form that I would seek CO status if there ever was a draft. Even so I was always told that it may be rejected.

[prodigal_green]

5. COs can still be sent to war

they take non-combat functions, like medic or support, they just can't carry a weapon.

[tuvor]

6. Thanks, WhereIsMyFreedom and prodigal_green

I'm a bit smarter today!

I think you can rest assured the most Canadians are on your side, even if the government may not be so much.

We have a minority government right now, who only days ago faced losing what was essentially a potential vote of non-confidence. Their fate would have rested in the hands of one independent MP, from Surrey, BC.

[Piperay]

18. During Viet Nam

my brother registered as CO don't know what might have happened but luckily they started the lottery and his number was like 300 something. :-) Whew, no longer had to worry but the whole family had already decided ahead of time that if need be we would relocate to Canada (we have relatives there so knew that would make a move easier).

[Kimber Scott]

7. If it were me and I wanted out, I'd be gay all of a sudden. Although,

gayness might be a hard sell, if you've got a wife and baby. But, being gay is the perfect "out." Throws their own homophobia in their face, (they'll cut off their nose to spite their face when it comes to someone being gay), and you'd get out of the service.

[happyslug]

8. I hate to dis-illusion you but being "Gay" did not affect the draft

Now being "Gay" did keep you out of the Air Force and Navy during Vietnam but NOT the Army. Prior to 1982 the US Army had the policy that while it was illegal to do a Homosexual Act if you were in the Military being a Homosexual was NOT illegal. In 1982 Reagan changed the US Army Regulations to follow the US Air Force and US Navy Regulations.

Thus during Vietnam being "Gay" did NOT get you out of the draft. During the late 1980s 60 Minutes did a spot on a US Army Sargent you always said on his draft papers and his subsequent enlistment papers that he was a homosexual. He had been drafted during Vietnam and as long as he marked his enlistment forms that he willing to fight for the US Army he was permitted to be drafted and than re-enlist till his final enlistment papers. His Final enlistment came due AFTER the 1982 change in Regulations and the Army was trying to kick him out of the Army instead of permitting him to re-enlist (and earn his 20 years retirement pay).

I believed he managed to stay in for his 20 years, but my point is that during Vietnam being "Gay" did NOT keep you from being drafted and in any future draft being "Gay" will not keep you out of the draft.

As to Consciouses Objector (CO) Status, that is a product of Stature, the Draft law of 1917 did NOT have a Consciouses Objector (CO) Status and Consciouses Objector (CO) were drafted and if they refused to served were sentenced to Prison.

The only previous draft to the Draft of 1917 was the Draft Act of 1863, which also did not have a Consciouses Objector (CO) Status, But preserved the Tradition of being able to "buy" one self out of the draft either by hiring an exempt substitute (often a Veteran whose time had expired) or some other exempt person (Both Lincoln and future President, than Buffalo District Attorney, Cleveland "purchased" substitutes for themselves). Many people who were exempt from the Draft under other provisions of the Draft ended up "buying" a substitute because it was see as a way to support the troops. Lincoln and Cleveland by their positions were exempt from the Draft but paid substitutes to show it was NOT a way to avoid the draft but a legitimate way to show your support for the war (Andrew Carnegie also purchased an exemption for the same reason even through he was exempt for his services early in the War for organization the National Railroad System to support the US Army, purchasing exemptions were common from 1863-1865).

Thus under the 1863 Act they was no need for Consciouses Objector (CO) status for if you truly were Consciouses Objector (CO) you could buy your way out of the draft (Please remember if one reads about the Draft Act of 1863 you quickly realized it was a way to give "bonuses" for troops to re-enlist, the enlistments bonuses of 1861-1862 had disappeared by 1863 and the Draft Act was designed to bring back those private bonuses more than the Act was designed to actually draft people into the Union Army).

Thus Consciouses Objector (CO) Status was NOT needed in the 1863 Act, not done in the 1917 act and only entered into the law with the Draft Act of 1941. Since the Draft Act of 1941 Consciouses Objector (CO) Status has been observed but only to people eligible under the Stature. The Courts in upholding the lack of a Consciouses Objector (CO) status in the Draft Act of 1917 had already said that the US Constitution does NOT exempt people who oppose war from being drafted and being forced to fight for the US. Thus the Exemption is only Statutory and can be changed, modified or even revoked any time Congress decides to do so.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. I had a couple friends in 1970

who got out of being drafted by claiming they were gay. So it DID work for some people.

[happyslug]

10. My point was it also did NOT work for others

Being "Gay" or "CO" does NOT exempt you from the Draft unless Congress says so (And Congress can change its mind at any time one way or the other).

[Kimber Scott]

11. The draft is not in effect now, but "Don't ask, don't tell" is.

You tell, you get discharged.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040702-030551-4446r

1,000 gays have needed military skills
By Pamela Hess
Pentagon correspondent

Published 7/2/2004 4:28 PM

WASHINGTON, July 2 (UPI) -- Around 1,000 service members with special skills that are now sorely needed in Iraq have been expelled from the military in the last five years because they are gay, according to a United Press International analysis.

The military next week will recall from their civilian lives some 5,600 soldiers to fill out the ranks of 141,000 soldiers serving in Iraq. The service is calling in those former soldiers who have specific skills tailor-made for the Iraq conflict -- those experienced in food service, truck driving, auto repair and healthcare as well as paralegals, combat engineers, administration specialists and infantry. It is the largest mobilization of the Individual Ready Reserve in two decades.

The IRR is a pool of former military personnel who either volunteer to be on call for duty or who, by virtue of their initial enlistment contracts, owe up to four years in the IRR after they leave the military. An Army official this week admitted some soldiers will be "shocked" to be called up for a year's duty from their civilian lives as the IRR is so rarely tapped.

However, according to numbers provided by the Army and by the Defense Department, at least 948 gay service members with the very same specialties have been forced out of the military under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that bars homosexuals from serving. Not all of the 948 are from the Army; service by service breakdowns were not available.

The Army is seeking 790 "motor transport operators" -- truck drivers -- to pull a year's duty in Iraq. At least 113 military truck drivers were forced to leave the armed forces between 1998 and 2003, according to statistics the Defense Manpower Data Center in Seaside, Calif., provided under the Freedom of Information Act to the University of California-Santa Barbara's Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military.

more---

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040702-030551-4446r

[happyslug]

14. How many of these new "Gays" Cease being "Gay" with their DD214?

If I was in and I wanted out today I would be tempted to say I was "Gay" to get out of the Military. Once out who cares? I could than return to my girlfriend (who would testify to me being "gay" to get me out if I was in). Kicking out any and all gays was the policy of the US Military prior to taking Iraq which occurred in early 2003 almost 5 years into that study.

Since early 2003 there have been reports that the Army had REFUSED to release people who came out as being "Gay". The Army needs all the men it can retain. Look at the years of the Study "1998-2003" We did not go into our present "War on Terrorism" till after 9/11/01 thus 1/2 of the years of the study was before the War on Terrorism. All 113 drivers may have been kicked out before 1/1/02 making the numbers even worse. The present shortage of Drivers occurred AFTER we had taken Iraq, thus the shortage occurred in the last year or so and ALL of the 113 drivers mentioned may have been kicked out PRIOR to the start of the Invasion of Iraq in early 2003.

Thus while the regulations at present say "If you are "Gay" and admit it you get kicked out" the Army appears to be ruling that people who say they are "Gay" are simply lying and thus not "Gay" and thus the person will have to stay in for the duration.

Remember it is up to the Army to determine if you are "Gay" or not, a person's claim of being "Gay" is just part of the decision process. Once the Army determines you are "Gay" than you are out, but all the Army has to do is say it is NOT convinced you are "Gay" and deny you your discharge. Since you are not "Gay" you can not get out (and remember don't ask don't tell can also mean don't see even if you are kissing someone of the same sex).

One last note, among people of the Middle East it is not unusual for men to kiss each other (Read your Bible, Judas identifies Jesus to the people who come to arrest Jesus by Kissing Jesus, a common act among men of his time and place). Thus even if someone sees two men kissing, that can be seen by the Army as you trying to fit into Arab Culture NOT as a homosexual act. Once back home and you are no longer needed it will be a different story but at present it appears if the Army needs your body, Gay or Straight you are going to Iraq.

[Amigust]

16. It's easy for a couple of guys to "prove it" and get caught in the act.

the Army appears to be ruling that people who say they are "Gay" are simply lying and thus not "Gay" and thus the person will have to stay in for the duration.

Doing it once at the right place and right moment certainly isn't going to make their dicks fall off or stop working. Consider the alternative.

[Amigust]

15. 770 people were discharged in 2003

770 people were discharged for homosexuality in 2003 under the military's “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:MSnjlUdVCdkJ:www.gaymilitary.ucsb.edu/PressClips/04_0620_AP.htm+770+Specialists+Discharged+for+Being+Gay&hl=en

[Lisa]

12. US war resisters have some highly-placed support ...

I've talked to people who recall what things were like 30 years ago. Arguably there is more widespread public criticism of US policy now -- and the organizers from back then are now old enough to have reputable positions in society and a lot more economic clout than they did in the Vietnam era. Many Canadians feel that the US immigrants from that time made valuable contributions -- thinking about people I know, I can think of doctors, lawyers, teachers -- my PhD supervisor and also the prof who shares my office are both US expatriates. Ask people in Nelson and other BC towns what kind of impact the 1960s-70s US immigration wave had on their communities -- Nelson's even planning a reunion weekend.

Some big names on their petition:

http://www.resisters.ca

It's a Liberal minority government, so parties like the NDP and the Bloc, who tend to support the peace movement, have more parliamentary influence. Last time the United Church and the NDP helped organize public write-in campaigns to pressure Trudeau's Liberals. Religion may not be as big a factor in people's lives today, but the United Church is still the biggest Protestant denomination in Canada, and they were outspoken against the invasion of Iraq (they helped organize many of the demonstrations up here).

[Milspec]

13. Welll....in 2004 I have a bit of & issue

"Jeremy Hinzman enlisted in the Army in Boston, did a tour in Afghanistan and prepared for elite Ranger school".
and
"No matter how much I wanted to, I could not convince myself that killing someone was ever right,"

"Ranger School", "killing someone was ever right"

What was his reason for enlisting...
Duty, Honor, Country or ... or what?

[Amigust]

17. "No matter how much I wanted to ..."

I think for most sheople who finally develop a grain of independence in their character, they have to go through endless experiments of doing thing they think they "should" do till they finally are able to accept their own personal authority to some lesser or greater extent.