WP: Group of Bishops Using Influence to Oppose Kerry

[kskiska]

DENVER, Oct. 9 - For Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, the highest-ranking Roman Catholic prelate in Colorado, a swing state, there is only one way for a faithful Catholic to vote in this presidential election, for President Bush and against Senator John Kerry.

"The church says abortion is a foundational issue,'' the archbishop explained to a group of Catholic college students gathered in a sports bar here on Friday night. He stopped short of telling them whom to vote for, but he reminded them of Mr. Kerry's support for abortion rights. He did not explicitly endorse Mr. Bush, but pointed out the potential impact his re-election could have on Roe v. Wade.

"Supreme Court cases can be overturned, right?" he asked.

(snip)

Galvanized by battles against same-sex marriage and stem cell research and alarmed at the prospect of a president who, like Mr. Kerry, is a Catholic and supports abortion rights, these bishops and like-minded Catholic groups are blanketing churches with guides identifying abortion, gay marriage and the stem cell debate as among a handful of "non-negotiable issues."

To the dismay of liberal Catholics and some other bishops, traditional church concerns about the death penalty or war are often not mentioned.

more…
http://nytimes.com/2004/10/12/politics/campaign/12catholics.html?hp&ex=1097553600&en=925d596b8940940d&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Davis_X_Machina]

1. Cardinal Ratzinger. who ranks Chaput...

...has contradicted Chaput.

The man wants Bush so bad, he's busting chain of command.

[Princess Turandot]

17. The story here is how little publicity the US press gave to the Ratzinger.

document, who not only 'outranks' this Cardinal but is probably the 2nd most influential person in the Catholic Church. To issue a document which may express disapproval of the same topics, but then summarize it by saying voters could 'balance the equities' of the issues, and vote for the candidate who best represented their Catholic beliefs as they personally weighted them, and not be 'committing a sin', was rather extraordinary. It was also a rather direct statement coming straight from the Vatican that the abortion issue need not be the linchpin of a Catholic vote.

Unfortunately, everyone seems much more inclined to report stories like these.

[deadparrot]

2. Nothing about the death penalty or unjust wars, as deemed by the Vatican.

Sigh.

[Cha]

3. STupid fucking asshole...

WE WAnt Choice and there's nothing you can do about it..

bush is killing our Soldiers, ruining our country and our reputation in the world and this asshole is telling Catholics to vote for the little furious idiot!

What does it take to be a bishop and so damn dumb?

[David Dunham]

5. Scum.

[The Zanti Regent]

4. Tax this twit

Time has come to tax all churches!

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

12. Amen

Er uh...agreed.

[mitchum]

15. It's way past time to tax these pulpit-dwelling grifters

[Eric J in MN]

6. These hypocrites have no problem with pro-choice

Republicans like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Rudy Giuliani, and George Pataki.

[DBoon]

9. Who all happen to be Catholics, right?

eom

[sonicx]

11. they all are, i believe. nt

[DBoon]

16. Arnold even has a chapel named after him at Saint Monica's Church

in Santa Monica, CA.

This is despite being a "pro-choice" politician

I never heard the Catholic hierarchy telling people to support Gray Davis, though. And I have certainly heard of no threats to excommunicate him.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

7. Vatican II made Catholicism a personal and conscientious religion

Abortion is frankly none of anyone's business but the mother and most eveyone knows that. And even if you believe an "unborn child" is being murdered, it is not up to you to stop it.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Catholics don't "do fundy".
This Bishop is out of touch.

[SharonAnn]

8. I didn't know Bishops had any influence these days, even in a group!

Wow, what a bunch of misogynists.

We should lock them up with each other while we all get about our own lives.

My own mother, with 8 children, finally had it one day when a priest signaled that he wanted her to leave Sunday Mass with a fussy two-year old who was being a little noisy. She refused to leave. Later she said, "He wants me to have them, then he can put up with them for one hour a week!"

She was a wonderful mother, but she knew when "enough was enough".

[VegasWolf]

10. Just exercising their influence over the Altar Boy's!!

[Cobalt Violet]

13. Death Penalty and Wars that kill thousands are what make a Catholic...

Good. Fuck these stupid priests. All they got is some strange looking hat. And that gives them some sort of power to tell people what to do. Fuck the Fucking Church. Nothing but a Fucking Cult.

[mitchum]

14. The last time I listened to a man in a dress was during Bowie's...

"Man Who Sold The World" days
Fuck Archbishop Charles J Chaput

[Sugarbleus]

18. Bwahahahahahaah A man in a dress? lol lol

I am not catholic. I naively assumed all catholics were Liberal...always seemed like they were the first ones to set up soup kitchens and vote anti-death penalty etc etc... BOY, have I been snookered. :dunce:

The "conservative" Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and Catholics have formed a cabal against the rest of mankind. I think its VERY VERY unnerving and scary. I've decided to drop the hell out of organized religion until further notice. I cannot join hands, in good conscience, with any group of people who try to control everyone else. IT ISN'T RIGHT!

[Bo]

33. I miss BOWIE in a dress

[dolstein]

19. These are the same people who protect pedophiles, right?

NT

[Southpaw Bookworm]

26. Setting them up with housing

Inside the Vatican so they can't be touched by the American legal system.

[FlemingsGhost]

20. The Catholic Church is dying.

In fact, all of religion is in a desperate search for relevancy.

Thankfully, we are evolving past the superstitous notion that "God" is something greater and more powerful than our own inner spirit ... a paternalistic symbol to be groveled to, for mercy and forgiveness.

It's about damn time religion gave way to truth.

[MsMagnificent]

21. As a Catholic-Buddhist I can say...

Well, lots of stuff:

--that the great majority of Catholics are Democrats

--that the great majority of Catholics don't obey the Pope's proclamations. Birth control is used as much (or maybe even more) than the standard population. Well, maybe except for the Irish. (I DON"T mean to be flippant here! The only huge Catholic families I've ever seen have been Irish)

--the the great majority of Catholics are so totally ticked off over the altar boy scandals that they'd doubly not listen to some pompous asses who dare tell them who to vote for. However here I'd like to make a point on behalf of Pope John Paul II -- his first answer to the pedophile priest scandal isn't as out of touch as it appears ('but they've taken a vow of chastity being the problem was his first concern seemingly OVER pedophilia but that's how priests minds work, no penile emissions first and foremost). Sorry to have to speak like that)
As much as I hate to admit this, this scandal has been whispered about since at least the 60's, and in most Catholic's knowledge, that they knew the Bishops would just move pedophile or adulterous priests around. And all through that time the congregations did nothing about it. So one does wonder why NOW this is such a scandal, what with their tacit approval...

--the very small minority of Catholics who are 'Charismatic' (aka in other religions 'Fundamentals') are the one's protesting for anti-abortion. Don't get me wrong -- American Catholics don't LIKE abortion, but they do like the separation of church and state and this influences their vote.


I was born and raised a Catholic. Went to all Catholic schools, the whole 9 yards. WAY back in the 70's I'd say at least half of the high school juniors & seniors were taking the pill. These are the adults of today. Most of my boyfriends were Catholic, and the few I fell in love with, to have the need to use birth control, advocated it's use to me before I could to them -- so it's not only the girls who use and approve of birth control.

Pope John Paul II is, IMO, a truly great man. I really do admire and love him, but I don't follow ALL of his dogma! His intelligence, kindness and good works are truly 'The Labor of the Sun'. I don't believe, as many if not most Catholics do, in the Pope's 'Infallibility'. He's a mortal man. Period. But, this one at least, is a great and truly compassionate man (especially as opposed to the "Compassionate Conservatives" *gag* -- just more of the "Moral Majority, which as everybody knows, was neither) and he is deserving of respect even if he did help perpetuate the birth control/abortion 'ban', didn't allow women priests and didn't allow priests to marry.
Indeed it's difficult to find ANY religion who advocates abortion!

Clearly, the Roman Catholic Church has a long and unbroken history of being downright freaky and paranoid about sex!
(Poor Mary, now she is a perpetual virgin. One wonders how Joseph viewed this and how her (I would assume) refusal to join with her husband in connubial "bliss" was viewed by the Hebrew misogynist clerics of that time.)
Still, that doesn't mean that all their other dogma is, however, wrong.


***Why Catholic-Buddhist? I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord. The Buddhist tradition completely complements Christian morality. The Buddha wasn't God, just a prophet, which leaves the question/choice of God wide open. (Please note however that there are many different types of Buddhism, from believing in no God to having many)

All my opinion, of course :D

***Edit: Fixed typo

[Crowdance]

27. Why?

Why are the ancient Hebrews misogynists, but this "truly great man" who prohibits women from participating in their religion and restricts their access to important health care is not?

[Zorra]

22. Link to photos of Catholics and Hitler:

The Pope should start reigning in his nazi loving underlings, unless he too is a supporter of war, murder, destruction and fascism. Check out the photo captioned "Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler":
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

[IndianaGreen]

25. The irony is that the US supported the Croats against the Serbs

despite the fact that it was the Croats that started the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. During WWII it was the Catholic Croats that supported Hitler against the Orthodox Serbs.

When it comes to supporting Hitler and enabling the Holocaust, the US is not without blame.

[Lizzie Borden]

40. Well, that was pretty disturbing.

n/t

[lovuian]

23. This is Outrageous!!!

:argh:

[IndianaGreen]

24. Defeating Kerry is more important than protecting children from clergy

The priorities of the Catholic hierarchy are very revealing of how corrupt and abusive they have become. No wonder the faithful ignores the Vatican!

[ChrisK]

28. What happens when "they" get all they want and life is still bad?

Really, think about it, what would happen if this archbishop got just what he wanted with Bush and this country and parts of the world start to fall apart worse then they are now?..Who is he going to blame next?..Jews, Muslims, Pagans, women, blacks, whites?


When your own house is in a bit of disarray it would be most wise to fix that problem first then offer to help others. Advice is all well and good but when you ignore that advice to focus on things that really aren't yours to fix you look a bit lost and hypocritical

[AngryOldDem]

29. Pure Cafeteria Catholicism

>>>To the dismay of liberal Catholics and some other bishops, traditional church concerns about the death penalty or war are often not mentioned.>>>

To pick and choose among the primacy of Catholic social teaching is cafeteria Catholicism at its worst.

As a "liberal Catholic," I am WAY past feeling dismayed. Try disgusted.

[davhill]

30. This is only partly about abortion

Bishops depend on donors with deep pockets for their building projects which have a tendency to grow more important than the teachings of Christ. Donors with deep pockets also tend to be Republican. I am a pro-life Catholic and many of us support Kerry. Abortion may be a "foundational issue" and if a president Kerry ordered mandatory abortions all as in China, Catholics would be obliged to oppose him. Being pro-choice, as Kerry is is a totally different thing. Requiring the state to lock up women who chose to have abortion and their healthcare professionals is not a "foundational issue" by any stretch.

[Catt03]

31. Email him

Archbishop Charles J. Chaput

Archbishop email

[e-mail]

[USA_1]

32. what a REAL Catholic believes .......

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/opinion/11roche.html


True Catholics support Kerry.

[Malva Zebrina]

34. I would think the good Archbishop should be voted out of office

by the faithful. I know, of course, it is not possible, as it is not in any way shape or form, a democratic institution. It seems more a dictatorship and is by no means an equitable process.

He and all like him, are appointed by others who also were not elected by the people they profess to council and serve.

It is a terrible and a cheap thing to hold "sin" or damnation of hell over the head of the vulnerable, in order to skew/influence an election.

It is the use of fear, and is not much different than what Bush does to his citizens.

There is no place for it here.

[AngryOldDem]

35. If Vatican voted, Kerry would win 60-40

From this week's National Catholic Reporter, written by highly respected journalist John Allen:

http://www.ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2004d/101504/101504a.htm

[guajira]

36. This Says it Best for me!

[yardwork]

37. "Foundational beliefs" - that's what a fundie told me

She told me that "Bush is a godly man. He goes to my foundational beliefs."

So caught up in code words and secret messages. The Republicans have been in charge for years and they haven't touched Roe v Wade. What are they waiting for?

[Free2BMe]

38. Our pastor "leans right" and if he said one word...

in the sermon or otherwise ..about any of this I would walk out immediately...no hesitation...we already had one go around as he has caught up with Janeanne on Talk Radio and despises her..so I asked him about "Rush"...Anyhow most of these things they stand for are not documented and I think they misread Christ in most instances..It's all about power, folks...Yes, I am a lifelong Catholic and cannot express to anyone how much stemcell research is important to me...Women's rights come under the same constitution that our fore-people put in to effect..I have struggled with the death penalty issue...I think the churches had all better clean their own clocks before attempting to "nationalize" (which is unconstitutional anyhow.)

[leesa]

39. Shame on these murderous bastards!

They want people to vote for the war criminal Bush who has tens of thousands of murders on his head. Shame on them!

[jackieforthedems]

41. I'm Catholic

and just about ready to leave the Church over their hypocritical b.s.