Germany in rethink on Iraq force deployment(May deploy if change)

[RamboLiberal]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/0b76459e-1c80-11d9-8d72-00000e2511c8.html

Germany might deploy troops in Iraq if conditions there change, Peter Struck, the German defence minister, indicated on Tuesday in a gesture that appears to provide backing for John Kerry, the US Democratic presidential challenger.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Mr Struck departed from his government’s resolve not to send troops to Iraq under any circumstances, saying: “At present I rule out the deployment of German troops in Iraq. In general, however, there is no one who can predict developments in Iraq in such a way that he could make a such a binding statement .”

Mr Struck also welcomed Mr Kerry’s proposal that he would convene an international conference on Iraq including countries that opposed the war if he were to win next month's election.

Germany would certainly attend, Mr Struck said. “This is a very sensible proposal. The situation in Iraq can only be cleared up when all those involved sit together at one table. Germany has taken on responsibilities in Iraq, including financial ones; this would naturally justify our involvement in such a conference.”

[jayfish]

1. Great Catch!

Hope Kerry hears about it in time for tomorrow night.

Jay

[are_we_united_yet]

I'm sure

Kerry knew about this well in advance.

[JPace]

2. Germany to the U.S. (uncoded)

Please get rid of crazy furious george
who on one can work with and we will gladly
work with President Kerry.

[NMDemDist2]

8. ps think it thru, why would germany send troops to free up US troops

so bush can invade another country? of course they;ll deal with a reasonable man when bush is gone

[aquart]

10. Didn't even need to be uncoded.

No one on the planet can stand George and I suspect that includes his parents.

[krkaufman]

21. "Furious George"... I like it.

This should have been the theme following the 2nd pres. debate. He went from confused in the first debate to angry in the second.

[knowbody0]

3. hehehehe

[Infomaniac]

4. Reading between the lines?

Is it fair to read between the lines and see by "change" that the Germans mean regime change in the U.S.? I realize that the Euros can't appear to take sides in our election by saying outright, "Bush goes, we'll send troops."

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. "You might well think that;

I couldn't possibly comment"

[2Design]

6. also don't think they can say that until they talk with kerry and find

out if he is sane compare to the resident and also the plan

the plan has to be mutual and the arabs need to be in on their own planning - they have been left out and american installed outsider put in

[sonicx]

7. i think it's fair to say that

most world leaders want bush gone. they can't say it outloud, tho.

[Tight_rope]

23. I'm no rocket scientist..but that's what I interpreted from this article

[wildflower]

9. Wow. Well, time to start renaming all the things...

with the word "German" in them.

The only one I can think of is "Freedom Shepherds"...

On edit: I could really go for some Freedom Chocolate Cake right now.

-wildflower

[bpilgrim]

12. FREEDOM CABBAGE vs sauerkraut

"It's our way of showing our patriotic pride," he said, noting that his business has a lot of local military troops as customers.

Rowland said the switch from french fries to freedom fries came to mind after a conversation about World War I when anti-German sentiment prompted Americans to rename German foods like sauerkraut and hamburger to liberty cabbage and liberty steak.

source...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/02/19/offbeat.freedom.fries.ap/

peace

[wildflower]

14. Wow, I never realized that was the source...or that

that had even happened during WWI. Thanks for posting that.

-wildflower

[bpilgrim]

15. thank GORE he 'INVENTED' the INTERNET ;-)

'the only thing new in this world is the history you don't know' Harry Truman

just a couple of the golden nuggets I picked up hanging round here ;-)

:hi:

peace

[wildflower]

17. I don't know much about these here Internets...

My thanks, to Al Gore and to you! :)

-wildflower

P.S. Excellent Truman quote. So true!

[Infomaniac]

27. Freedom Potato Salad

Although the freeptards would probably write it this way, "Freedom Potatoe Salad."

[speedoo]

11. Listen up, shrub.

YOU are the obstacle to getting additional international involvement in Iraq, because YOU made it so with your stupid, bullying tactics.

And now you are going to be moved out of the way, you stupid coWard.

[reorg]

13. sorry to burst your bubble

- but this is not really news:

German minister sees NATO role in Iraq
IHT, 8.10.03
"In an apparent softening of Germany's stance on Iraq, the defense minister said he could see a role for NATO in the country and did not exclude the possibility of German troops participating, according to remarks released Saturday."

http://www.iht.com/articles/105665.html

The exact same person, the exact same words: one year ago ... this is mostly about unpaid bills by Iraq and about German businesses eager to get what they believe is a fair share of the spoils.

Of course, they hope to get along better with Kerry. But this is not something I would cherish. The US need to get out, not share the "burden" with their old friends.

[Ohio rules]

18. They want a slice of the pie

It's all about oil futures.

[Nicholas_J]

16. Not unexpected

Vladimir Putin hinted that the situation in Iraq would be better if Kerry is elected, which is pretty much a hint that Russia might rethink its support of the situation in Iraq if their is a change of government in Iraq.

Recent world wide polls indicate that most of the nations of Europe would vote for Kerry if they were voting, 78 percent to 22 percent, That is an average. The rate in Germany was 90 percent for Kerry and the current German government is very Anti-Bush. They are losing seats in the Bundestag and anti-Bush rhetoric is one of the few things that Schroeder is getting support for. An indication that the German government will change its position if Kerry is elected may go far in stregtheining his party's position. They have been losing seats to the right win parties in Germany lately, and a strong anti-Bush position is an indication that trying to support the Bush administration of at least to avoid open conflict with it has cost Schroeder dearly.

Hopefully, this helps Shroeder,as well as bolstering Kerrys plans for dealing with Iraq, as Bush can no longer call Kerry's ideas of getting other nations involved naive with such statements from the German government. Germany is the largest and strongest nation in the EEC. The rebuilding of Eastern Europe is largely being done by Germany, and Germna support of the nations of eastern europe is far more critical to them than American support. Stronger German opposition to the Bush war in Iraq could very well result in more of the "coalition of the willing" pulling out of Iraq if Bush remains in office, but remain in Irawq if Kerry wins and the Germans give the green light to continued support from the eastern european nations.

[reorg]

19. wrong analysis

Public support for the Iraq occupation will cost the German government coalition - whoever is president in the US. They lost more votes to the anti-war left than to the (in this case also anti-war) right, btw.

Whether the German government will give the "green light" to other countries (to the extent they have a say in it, if at all -- which I doubt), this will depend on economic benefits such as a reversal of the cancelling of Iraqi debts, or contracts for German businesses in Iraq, or support for ventures elsewhere, such as in Africa etc., all of which is not dependent on changes in the US administration, albeit more likely to achieve with Kerry, maybe. You won't see me frolicking, though, if any of this will come to pass ...

[Nicholas_J]

28. The European view of the economy future of Eastern Europe

is totally based on German investment in the ex Warsaw pact nations. German investment in Eastern Europe, and in particular, the Balkans, is greater than that of the rest of the EEC and the
United State put together. In essence, the failed policies of Nazi Germany based on war and conquest, of a Greater German Reich and Leibensraum in the East is becoming an reality based on the economic superpower that Germany has become since reunification. In essence Central Economy is German Economy. German investment in rebuilding of the infrastructure in the Balkans to faculitate the construction of new industries again, exceeds that of the EEC and Europe put together. As soon as Germany indicated that it might come into assit in Iraq if Kerry was elected, the foreign Radio services of two Balkan nations, Romania and Bulgaria, began an intense attack on the failed Bush policies in Iraq. They run very close to the arguments against the Bush policies held and used by the Schroeder government.

Polls taken in Germany have indicated support for Kerry's policies for Iraq, and also indicate a 90 percent support rating for German military support of a Kerry administrations plans for Iraq.

Eastern Europe is also providing German Industry with a large and young labor pool to replace the falling number of workers due to the Greying of Western Europe.

In 1998, it was the United States that provided the largest investment in Eastern Europe.
Germany second. Since then the situation has reversed.

Plus Germany provides the largest markets for Eastern Europe, and also provides the largest amount of tourist dollars to Eastern Europe, in particular to the Balkans again.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Germany has provided more aid and investment to the former Soviet republics than any other West European state, contributing US$52 billion in aid to Russia and other members of the former Soviet Union between 1989 and 1993 as well as US$25 billion to the states of Central and Eastern Europe. More than one-half of East European and Baltic trade with the EU is with Germany. Other types of economic activities are also becoming common. For example, by 1994 the Deutsche Bank had opened a branch office in Prague and planned to open others throughout Eastern Europe...


The credits that Germany has been giving to its Eastern trading partners are not without risk. Russian and East European debt has been accumulating for several decades. Virtually every East European state had trouble servicing its debts during the early 1990s, and special arrangements had to be made to reschedule Poland's debt. Nonetheless, the German government and German banks were prepared to extend further credits despite nagging doubts about when the credits would be repaid. German determination to increase trade with Eastern
Europe and to invest more in that area reflects tradition as well as economic and political interest. Moreover, Germany is better located than any other West European state to trade with Eastern Europe, especially because Berlin remains one of the most attractive potential production, assembly, service, and transportation centers for East European trade.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-4961.html


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Unified Germany is simply the linchpin on which Eastern European economic growth is based.

As noted Eastern Europe is extremely in economic debt to Germany. Such debt easily translates into political debt.

You might want to read the following as well, a study based on a data from 1050 German investment projects in Eastern Europe. This 1050 number is a small sample of German investment in Eastern Europe.

Both articles are old, and Germany has seriously increased its investment position in Eastern Europe.

The German anti war movement was not as responsible for Shroeders losses in the Bundestag as the anti-Bush,anti-American movement was. Schroeder was extremely scathing in his attacks on the Bush administration and the Iraq war. His party did not lose seats to the anti-war parties but to the far right German nationalist parties.

[reorg]

29. economic giant, politically a dwarf

that's how Germany was and still is aptly characterised, despite all attempts to gain influence internationally (no Security Council seat yet, for one).

Your summary of Germany's economic influence on Eastern Europe is certainly accurate, but it does NOT translate into political influence of the ruling coalition on these countries. Our industry is represented mainly by Bush lapdogs CDU and FDP, not by the current government. And still, Schroeder's critique of Bush never was scathing, on the contrary, he went out of his way to be accomodating and has pointed out just recently that his government will not take sides in the American election -- as they never do.

The very statements and hints that were made by Struck to the FT were made one year before -- to Bush&Co.

The anti-war movement was not responsible for Schroeder's recent losses, that's true -- he did it all by himself, though, by abandoning his party's platform and introducing social cuts that he criticized when his party was in opposition.

But Schroeder would not be in office now, had he supported Bush -- and this was actually the only reason he didn't. Our conservative opposition has always pointed out how detrimental that decision was, for our industry, jobs, and whatnot. They were never anti-war, and never anti-Bush, and they have good chances to win next time, with the ruling parties' losses and all. If the SPD now turn around and openly join the Iraq occupation, under whatever pretext, they will further estrange their voter's base.

There is a new left opposition party which hopefully will suck off enough of these losses to prevent a conservative majority. And -- as I mentioned previously -- it was the left who won when the moderate SPD lost, more than the neo-Nazis. But even the neo-Nazis thrive not only on the feeling of betrayal through social cuts -- they are also very outspoken AGAINST the Iraq war, against the US. Don't believe for one second that their voters will turn to the SPD any time soon.

You claim there are polls that allegedly found 90% in Germany support Kerry's Iraq policies (whichever that may be)? I'd really like to see these. Do you have a link? I don't believe that is true. At best it is some sort of misunderstanding. Of course, 90 percent would prefer a president Kerry. But this does not translate into "support for his policies in Iraq".

[Nicholas_J]

31. It already has effected several of the coalition members stances

Both Bulgaria and Romania, two members of the coalition, with one being a major staging ground for the U.S. Air force in place of Turkey(Bulgaria) have in the last 48 hours issued official scathing attacks on the Bush Administrations policy in Iraq, coming immediately on top of Germany's statements about supporting the U.S. in Iraq if there is a new administreation in America.

Germany has no position on the Security Council but is the most powerful state in the EEC, wielding more power and control than Great Britain. The economic and political power of Germany within Europe has led the French to side with Germany on literally all issues of political decision making and control over the EEC.

On top of this Germnay is the major financer of the U.S. Germnany along with France are financing more than half, some say closer to 3/4
s of the entire deficit spending that Bush has led the U.S. into.

Recent comments from the German banking community indicate that the Germans are not going to continue financing this debt without serious concessions from the U.S. Government regarding the situation in Iraq.

France, the second partner in financing the U.S. debt, has agreed to go along with Germany. There are hints towards the members of the coalition in Eastern Europe from the German bandks that Germnay will no loinger extend or forgive Eastern Eurpean debt unless they fall in line with German and French thoughts about Iraq.

A rather key indication of the power that Germany holds in the world was the Bush reversal ofsteel tariffs. Germany is the major steel producer in western Europe. When Bush issued his tariffs, and the WTO found them to be illegal and also found U.S. tax policies towards business to be subsidies to large business. BUsh folded. Germnay was the controlling block in the WTO that pushed for this vote. Once the WTO made its decision the EEC, at German and French insistance issued tariffs and trade restrictions onf 223 classes of products produced by the United States. At the hint of German banks, all of the Eastern European members of the Iraq coalition voted with the German bloc to place enormous tariffs on U.S. products. Enough to cost the U.S.a trade deficit in the area of a trillion dollars.

Germany has the influence where it counts. It can stop financing the BUsh deficit. It can control the EEC, it has massive influence along with France on the WTO.

By the way, the Franco-German bloc steamrollered over Tony Blair and Great Britain when it came to the issue of steel tarriffs.

[jackieforthedems]

20. Germany & The Other Countries

will love dealing with John Kerry vs. Bush. Bush is a bully, but Kerry will win the peace and gain us back the respect and admiration that we are known for while 4 more years of Bush will destroy everything. Glad to hear this post - thanks!!!

[Aidoneus]

24. Now hang on a minute..

celebrating the fact that this shit will go down better by the other mobs with but a slightly superficial change? I think I know why the so-called "anti-war movement" didn't amount for shit, really--so long as it's your boy's finger on the button, like when Iraq was bombed and strangled all throughout the 90s, all will be well..

I'll deal with that "respect and admiration that we are known for" bit another time..

[jackieforthedems]

26. Who Are You Planning To Vote For?

Aidoneus, I hope it's not Bush - or that you're not voting period. I personally really think that it's a much better idea to have a united coalition, not to mention the decency and respect of other countries in the world, when taking on a country like Iraq or Afghanistan, etc... rather than throwing our weight around in a bullyish effort. Everyone knows that we are the most powerful nation in the world, but I don't think we need to rub it in. We have been told by the current administration that this so-called war will last beyond our lifetime, 25+ years. How can how long a war will last even be predicted? I just don't understand that one at all - or how if it ( the war ) does last that long, how at some point, a military draft won't happen? I don't see how one can't when we've already lost 1000+. Imagine how many will be lost after 25+ years?! I'm glad that I'm through having my children because anyone just getting married and starting a family is just breeding for the military. Don't worry about sending your kid to college and having a career because between the needs of the military and the job loss and down-sizing, about the only jobs available will be in the Armed Forces. I believe in war and defending one's country if it's happening on our turf, but this so-called war is nothing more than a huge farce, a form of population control, not to mention, a profit maker for pals of the Prez. Where are the WMD? There are none. We're talking about the Middle East, for God's sake! They have been fighting with each other over there forever - do you really think there's anything we Westerners can do to change their way of life, their religious beliefs, etc... forever? Aside from dropping an atomic bomb on them and completely annihilating them, I don't think so. Also: I can't support a man ( Bush ) who never actually fought in a war - lol, trying to dictate to others as how to fight one - what a laugh! And, I can't support a man whose family has connections to Hitler and the Bin Ladens either. Kerry is my choice - anyone but Bush. I can't support Nader because there's power in numbers, and the majority isn't with him. Peace!

[Aidoneus]

22. another peep from one of the pack mis-leading the 'opposition'

So if for but a slight change to the coat of paint, the same shit of a (white?, to continue the paint metaphor) house would suddenly be palpable to them. There, ladies and gentlemen, is the real strength of John Kerry and why I quite sincerely expect him to win next month. ...Also why I don't like him. But for their part, there is at least half-talk (that, if not outright hypocrisy which is just as easily expected) and ambiguity on the part of the German statement, so perhaps they don't think their cut of the action on the table is worth their while just yet.

[NVMojo]

25. There is something poignant here with this coming from Germany first

especially when you look at the atrocities Germans committed, sometimes, unknowingly, when they followed Hitler to Hell. Look at this country, how many have died in Iraq, US and others, as the USA followed Bush to hell.

[Igel]

30. And 24 hours later ...

Struck's struck.

Schröder pfeift Struck zurück

Schröder erklärte wörtlich: "Niemand in der Bundesregierung, einschließlich der Bundesverteidigungsminister, denkt daran, die Irak-Position zu ändern."
Regierungssprecher Thomas Steg sagte in Berlin: "Es wird keine deutschen Soldaten im Irak geben."

They may reconsider, but that's about all that's not ruled out.