BBC: How homosexuality is 'inherited'

[951]

Scientists say they have shown how male homosexuality could be passed from generation to generation.

Nature encourages mothers to pass on a "gay trait" to their male offspring by boosting their fertility, the Italian University of Padova team believes...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/click/rss/0.91/public/-/2/hi/health/3735668.stm

[hippiechick]

1. I'm sorry if this is a dumb question ...

but how do gay men pass on the 'trait' when they're ... uh ... not 'reproducing' ??

:shrug:


:hippie:

[papau]

3. Gays do have kids - and the article suggests that a mother that is

very fertile will have some males that are gay - I assume as a mother nature population control since while gays do have kids, they are obviously are not going to - on average - have as many as the average hetero males.

[Sentath]

4. Erm, no WE don't pass it on.

We got it (according to this one study) from our mothers as a side effect of her increased fertility due to certain x gene chromosomes.

Or so this says *shrug*

[ruggerson]

8. Because women carry it as a recessive gene

Thus, a mother who carries this gene may have a gay kid, and the mother's *daughter* may have a gay kid, and the mother's maternal *granddaughter* may have a gay kid, ad infinitum.

Capiche? :)

[hippiechick]

31. aah, something else for the knuckledraggers to blame women for !!

nice.



:hippie:

[Southpaw Bookworm]

34. That was my first thought

Something else for the fundies to blame women for -- spreading homosexuality.

On the bright side, at least they can't blame Clenis for this one.

[ruggerson]

38. Actually, I don't think anyone "blames" anyone

What's to blame? Homosexuality is morally neutral with heterosexuality.

Interesting anecdote: I know of a number of families that bear this study out. For example, in one, the third youngest boy is gay, his *mother's* brother (uncle) is gay and his *maternal grandmother's* brother (great uncle)is gay.

Just from my own observations, I would have to say this study is on to something.

[hippiechick]

41. Rational people don't 'blame' ... true ...

but the cave dwellers on the far right have to place blame somewhere for just about everything, and who better to blame than women ?

I mean, heck ... we want to work, we want equal pay, we want education and Ttitle IX, we want the right to vote, we want birth control ... the downfall of the western world is all at women's feet according to some of them.


:hippie:

[Steelangel]

2. oh? does it mean that repukes' evilness is 'inherited' as well?

[DS1]

10. Babs Bush, any questions?

:puke:

[sam sarrha]

14. Dubyas problem may be that his father and mother are 1st cousins ??

i heard that several places, any definate validation??

could explane a lot.. was his mother drinking during that pregnancy..?? one symptom of fetal alcohol syndrom is that one doesnt recognise the consequences of their actions.

[RobertSeattle]

5. Wouldn't this mean Utah (big families) should be full of Gay Mormons?

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. Why do you think there's such rampant homophobia there?

Closeted, self-hating gays who are sure they are damned for being who they are.

[booley]

7. according to many...

there are.

[NVMojo]

13. Dude, have you ever been to temple square after dark?

I'm hetro and I felt left out. And the gay bars are great as far a music and panache goes.

[kokomo]

16. Gays are kicked out of Brigham Young University

[Sean Reynolds]

17. Yes and it is.

Salt Lake City has one of the largest gay populations in the country.

A lot were/are LDS.

[Stephanie]

21. The gay Mormons mostly leave Utah.

I have a good friend from a Morman/Utah family - six kids, three are gay. They all left Utah. Wouldn't you?

[SkipNewarkDE]

32. Watch Angels in America

There was a gay, self-loathing Mormon who acted out...

[Rowdyboy]

9. Interesting article but not solidly convincing....

I'm an oldest child; my partner is an only child. The gays I've known have been all over the map-not predominately younger children.

However, in support, my mothers female relatives had more offspring than my fathers female relatives.

All in all, the report seems pretty weak to me.

[Red State Rebel]

37. I have a friend that he and his only brother are gay...

Their only sister is hetero. I don't think it's that common, at least I haven't seen it in any other gays I know. It certainly speaks strongly for the nature aspect of it.

[Amigust]

11. I very seriously doubt this explanation will stand the test of time.

There are lots of gays who are the only child or the eldest. And there are a lot of gays whose fathers are also gay to one extent or another.

Being the youngest of several brothers only makes it more likely that an already predisposed boy would have the experience of playing around with an older brother and finding out that he liked it.

I think they will eventually discover what a lot of people already know, that sexual orientation is best described on some kind of a curve, and that the few at the extreme end of the curve are only that, at the extreme end, and that a lot of people at other points on the curve also have some greater or lesser ability to enjoy same sex contact, but do not do so either because of social pressures to identify themselves as "straight" and live a "straight" life, or simply because of lack of opportunity.

[Tace]

12. Just For Fun I'll Mention That Ben Franklin Was Something Like The 11th

child in his family. He is often referred to as "The Father of Our Country" because he was said to be a lothario.

Of course, he may have been seducing men as well. And his reputation may be a myth.

Also a few questions:

Are men who have children not gay?

Is there a direct correlation between fertility and how many children a woman has?

And, wouldn't a man from a family with fewer children naturally be more apt to reproduce, regardless of his sexual orientation?

[sam sarrha]

15. the stats sohow that the same percentage of every population around the

world of each culture, where ever, is about the same for 'gay occurance'

[kokomo]

18. That data kinda blows holes in "gays increasing in US population"

Probably no more now than there ever were. They are just finding it is safer, bit-by-bit, to come out of the closet.

To hear the fundies talk, gays are proselytizing to INCREASE gays leading to the decadence of our society, and causing God to punish us with catastrophes like 9/11 and hurricanes hitting Orlando because Disney allows a "gay day"!

Interesting that the same % of gays are found in Muslim, Chinese, Polynesian, Native American, etc. societies, in all religous faiths.

[AngryAmish]

35. I did not know that

How is good data available? Are these self-reporting questionnaires? I don't doubt you, I just never heard this before.

[happyslug]

19. They was study of Twins many years ago that disproved this.

Basically the study found that if one Twin was Homosexual, the chance that other was a Homosexual was the same as any other random person (i.e. the second twin was as likely to be Homosexual as if you would pick anyone else in the general population and find that person was a Homosexual).

The only study I have read on Homosexuality and inheritance was a find that there was a slight increase in homosexuals among second born sons.

While Homosexually does seems to run in some families (Either through Tolerance of Homosexuality, exposure to it in the form of in family pedophilia, or maybe even inheritance of a trait for Homosexuality) inheritance does not seems to be the complete story on Homosexuality.

The best explanation of Homosexuality seems to be tied in with the development of the Brain. When a person is born the brain does a tremendous growth in the first nine months (At birth a person is roughly about the same proportions he will be as an adult, by nine month the brain is almost 1/3 of the infant's body). This massive expansion of the brain is unique to Humans.

This Brain development does not stop at nine months, it continues at a declining rate till about age 21 (There has been some recent research that the "Synapse" in the Brain are made even in old age but at very low level of production compared to birth to age 21).

The best theory at the present time basically observes that pre-teen Child wants to be with his or her own sex. Furthermore Males at this age has a strong desire to be with other males of their age group and to join in activities with those males. Younger brothers want to be with their older brothers and their older brother's Friends, but just can not because they are 1-2 years younger at at that age that is a significant difference in ability to do things.

The theory goes on that the denial of being with the older boys builds up a desire to be with those older boys no matter the price. With the onset of Puberty, sexual desires set by the brain are "cross-wired" with this desire to be with the older children and the person becomes a Homosexual.

Thus Homosexual is something "wired" into your brain during your pre-teen and teen years. Some people can be "deprogrammed" depending on the extent of the "Cross-wiring" but only in their teen years as their brain finish making the "Synapse" that make up the Brain (i.e. once you turn 21 you are a Homosexual for life, also it is rare for someone to turn Homosexual, as opposed to coming out of the closet, after age 21).

This seems to be how people become Homosexual (and given the male orientation of our society why Male Homosexuals outnumber lesbians almost 3-1).

One last note, the above theory is NOT in conflict with another theory on Homosexuality. The second theory was that Homo Erectus was a non-speaking Human type ancestor of modern Humans. As a non-speaking creature Homo Erectus needed to communicate with his fellow Homo Erectus that he and she were their "friend" as opposed to being their "Enemy". Like Bonobo (Or Pygmy chimpanzees) Homo Erectus might just have jerked each other off to show they were "Friends" (Male or Female).

Now the Theory goes on, as Home Erectus evolved into Homo Sapiens, various forms of "Pair Bondings" between heterosexual couples formed up. This pairing provided two creatures to bring their children to adult hood. At the same Homo Erectus was a group of creatures that worked together in groups larger than the Extended Family type organization of the Chimpanzee. Something had to hold these group of Creatures together. Chimpanzee use the fact all male members of a Chimpanzee band are blood relatives to each other to keep the group together. Homo Erectus were in groups to large to be just blood relatives, thus it is believed Homosexuality was one means to kept the males together (and the females bonding with the Males with some lesbian relations between the females to show that they were "Friends").

With the advent of Home Sapiens you had the fundamental change of Homo Sapiens being able to SPEAK. Talking is a better way to communicate than feel so it appears to have replaced "Feeling" quickly (Through some body language survives to this day).

The mother-son relationship was and is one of the strongest relationship among humans. In the days of Homo Erectus Mothers had to accept the fact that when their male offspring turn about age 12 he would be "Introduced" to the other males of her group by being pedophiled (Remember he had to become one of males of his group and that meant being the object of sexual act by the other males of his "group" to show he was one of their group). This is the best explanation of Pedophilia, that it like Homosexuality was part of the Human male during the millions of years of evolving of Homo Erectus to Home Sapien.

The advent of Language changed the whole situation. Males no longer needed to have sex with each other to show they were friends, they could talk instead. Right after the advent of Language woman could start to object to their partner about the "Attack" on their teen sons. The males who basically said "tough that is the way it has always been" basically saw their "pair-bond" break up over the acts while those males who adopted a policy of no such homosexual acts (and in fact hatred of Homosexual acts) were better able to keep up their pair bond so that their children could better reach adult hood.

Thus once Homosexuality was no longer advantages to Homo Sapiens, Homo Sapien developed away from it for it interfered with the pair- bond, and the pair bond has been the main form of Human relations in recorded history. Anything that attacks the pair-bond societies have destroyed and that appears to what happen to Homosexuality. Once the value of Homosexually was replaced by Language, the conflicts caused by Homosexuality with the Pair-Bond lead to abolishment and even hatred of Homosexuality.

Under this theory homosexuality is in all humans, but in Heterosexual males that tendency has been overridden by evolution (but it is a thin cap over the deeper homosexual/male bonding part of being Human).

Remember your theory of Evolution, in that theory we are NOT Evolving to-wards a desire result but instead we are the product of a patch on a patch on a patch, each patch a slight improvement over the previous patch. For example in Birds, Birds lost their ability to have teeth in the beaks Millions of years ago but if you were to take some material from their month and move it to another part of their body you can grow a tooth. The Tooth gene is still in the bird, but it is suppressed by other genes for a beak is better than a month of teeth (The Bird teeth grown in such experiments are simple teeth like that of Dinosaurs NOT the complex teeth of mammals).

The same with homosexuality, it is probably in all of us, but for 97% of the males and 99% o the females the gene for it has been suppressed in favor of heterosexuality only (i.e. the pair-bond). In the remaining population the cross-wiring above may very while over ride the gene to suppress homosexuality.

Thus these two theories are NOT exclusive of each other, in fact may explain why homosexuality exist in man, for it is the product of "cross-wiring" that overrules recent evolutionary tendency.

[Tace]

23. Thanks For Taking The Time To Explain All That.

[mare]

26. one of my friends wrote her thesis

about the theory with the "development of the brain" and the way she explained it to me it does seem to be a logic explanation.

Besides that, my family seems to be a kind of unusual version? My younger brother is gay but my youngest brother is not. None of my other cousins or uncles are gay, but my mother's cousin (the son of the sister of my grandmother) is. So the whole thing kind of seems to fit a bit into the study that started this thread.

[Lexingtonian]

29. I feel sort of cruel about posting this

Basically the study found that if one Twin was Homosexual, the chance that other was a Homosexual was the same as any other random person (i.e. the second twin was as likely to be Homosexual as if you would pick anyone else in the general population and find that person was a Homosexual).

http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html

Twin studies and homosexuality

Bailey and Pillard (1991): occurrence of homosexuality among brothers

52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise homosexual
22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were likewise homosexual

J.M. Bailey and R.C. Pillard, “A genetic study of male sexual orientation,” Archives of General Psychiatry, vol. 48:1089-1096, December 1991.


Bailey and Pillard (1993): occurrence of homosexuality among sisters

48% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual (lesbian)
16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual


Bailey, J. M. and D. S. Benishay (1993), “Familial Aggregation of Female Sexual Orientation,” American Journal of Psychiatry 150(2): 272-277.

The only study I have read on Homosexuality and inheritance was a find that there was a slight increase in homosexuals among second born sons.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_37/ai_72272310/pg_4
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_37/ai_72272310/pg_1

++++

There is so much else in your post to respond to, HappySlug, it's hard to know where to begin.

I have to admit I'm not a believer in any of the psychosocial origination theories, let alone the idea that homosexuality was the norm among primate populations or human societies (with a few exceptions). The correlation of homosexual people coming from families/parents with abusive sexual behavior and unsustainable notions of what is 'normal' fits reasonably well with a congenital/genetic theory of origination.

In some well-studied animals there is some knowledge of how small gender-specific neuron networks and regions of the brain are given the information which of the two forms of development they are going to follow. It's done by the dosage of a protein secreted by surrounding tissue and is dependent on the number of X chromosomes the average cell has. It happens remarkably early in development- maybe the equivalent of the second week of development in humans. Male is specified by "low" amount, Female by "high" levels.

In humans the equivalent protein messenger molecule isn't clearly identified. But it looks a lot like immune system protein messenger molecules known in humans, and it shows up in the immune system functions and limb development of these animals.

After that it's easy to see that if things work the same way in human development (about a 99% chance), male homosexuality could be most easily be caused by male foeti getting exposure to an unusually high dose of this type of protein in its brain during a small window in time of development. The easiest way it could happen is that there is a bacterial infection or other immune system activating event very close to the foetus- maybe an autoimmune response to male-only antigens- and that would, almost by itself, explain the birth order phenomenon and the genetic data linking homosexuality to the X chromosome. (The genetics would be explained by the mother being more susceptible to having this immune response take place than other women- e.g. a genetic alteration that makes her more susceptible to common uterine infections.)

Female homosexuality would occur when there is a diminishing of the amount or effectiveness of that protein factor at that stage of development. This is hard to induce from the outside, so it would have to be due to mutations in genes only slightly affecting their function, but just enough that it is impossible for the "high" level of the protein factor either to occur or to be fully recognized. In other organisms this protein factor has a role in control of limb growth/development. A few years ago, a very careful effort discovered that lesbians have hands that differ slightly in size from those of hetero women, most notably in the fourth finger (aka ring finger) being slightly smaller than expected/seen in hetero women.

Anyway, there are a lot more pieces of evidence that fit well into a model of the kind, which basically says it's all biological and quasi-accidental. But you can predict some things from it- that societies who live in humid climates (West Africans and Greeks, perhaps) have higher rates of homosexuality, for one thing (the uterine infection rate would be higher), and that migrants (e.g. the white colonizers of various contintents) entering climates with large amounts of (to them) novel pathogenic or infective bacteria will also have elevated rates. (Maybe the hot-and-humid American Southeast can be expected to have a rate of male homosexuality significantly higher than the American Northeast or American Southwest, interestingly enough.)

Evolutionarily the prevalence of homosexuality could be explained as a trade-off: rather than destroy foeti when there is a concurrent bacterial infection, many/most are saved by the vigorous but complicated immune response mounted. But the price is that all the complicated immune system signalling leads a proportion of them get gender specified in a way not identical to what their chromosomes would otherwise cause them to be. Over time a balance is found in stable populations that optimizes the ratio of foetal loss to live births (gay and hetero) and (hetero) fertility.

[kayell]

30. Thank you for debunking that.

I think the poster has been gathering his "scientific information" oon homosexuality from some unreliable sources.

[tinanator]

36. language based notions are laughable

there is simply no scientific way of knowing what language issues may or may not be available to prehistoric ancestors. Given the extremely sophisticated levels of communication available to even the simplest (pardon the expression) forms of organisms, I find these sorts of assumptions ludicrous. I think statistical facts and behavioral research regarding homosexuality (however it may be defined) in humans and other animal life forms are much more informative than a panapoly of often agenda driven research that might be better spent on serious health issues. Its so absurd to see wild blind spots perpetuated in modern science by charlatans with degrees and grants.

[Ediacara]

40. That second theory is BS

Homosexuality is widespread within bilaterian animals. In other words, not only are their gay chimps and dolphins, but gay insects as well. There is nothing inherently special about homonids in this respect. Additionally, there are other ways of communicating "I'm your buddy" without jerking someone off.... :-)

[PartyPooper]

20. I do believe the "gay genes" I received were from the paternal side

of the family. (My father's mother's family.) There is ample anecodotal evidence of this.

My own mother is / was homophobic. Her parents (my maternal grandparents) were not. They loved me as I am. Thank God for that!

:-)

[vajraroshana]

22. My dad told me he was gay...

a few years after I came out when I was about 14...,

My dad told me he'd kill me, because he can't stand a queer. He put a gun to my head and told me that I had to "take it back" .

My mother was screaming impotently in the backgroud "Lee, don't do this, don't do this"...

I somehow managed to tell my dad that I thought it must be some sort of part of growing up and that I really didn't mean it...

He did put his gun away...

Four years later after he knew he'd "caught" me with my boyfriend we had a different talk....

He said he'd tried to hold back his own homosexuality, and then did so (and married my mother anyway and had kids)...and so then I must also...Sure he wanted to "try it" but didn't...and I must "fight it"...

well that's a tiny presentation of a made-for-tv movie, if ever I did hear one; but it's true, just not complete...

Then he gave me the familiar ultimatatum..."you must give this up or I will kill you"...."and if you ever tell anyone about this I will kill you".....

Well, I haven't kept his secret. My dad's as queer as I am, only he can't accept it.

...And I've been "married" to my lover for these past 18 years....


I do keep my dad's secret. Y'all don't know who I am....

[PartyPooper]

24. One of the most profound posts I've ever read on DU!

I really don't know what to say. But, congratulations for surviving!

WE ALL LOVE YOU HERE AT DU!



:grouphug:

[vajraroshana]

25. Thank you...

The thing I *do* have to say or at least know....

Whenever there's people that really, really hate gay folks, for some reason especially when it's gay guys....

I may be biased, and you've heard the bias that I have, but I tend to think:

Whenever anyone is really strongly against gay people (particularly men) I think that it is almost a guarantee that you're dealing with someone who is actually gay and just hates that aspect of themself.

Seriously, I don't think actuallly purely straight men give a rat's- ass, if you know what I mean...Some truly straight women do....

...but so-called "straight" men that make a fuss about "gay" men are for obvious (obvious, if you've read this post) reasons are immediately suspect to me.

I recognized it in my dad... And I suspected it... Then he told me;;;I knew it though....

He hates that part of himself and he's the worst of the worst of right-wing self-hatred... I truly feel sorry for him -- and others like him.

But it's no reason to hate the whole world.....

That's what I've seen in my dad, and that's what I feel is at the heart of much of right-wing hatred. Not that I think they're all self-hating gays but that they're hating part of themselves. And they can't or don't want to deal with it........

Crap, I'm getting a little too deep here.

Thanks for your reply....I hope others will see it and understand something.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Wow!

What a horrible thing you had to endure! What a sad thing for your father. Our society is so misguided by "what should be" and "what is." We, as gays and lesbians, are taught how bad we are, evil even. It really boils down to gender roles. We are supposed to be a certain way and if we do not conform, we are somehow deficient. This is even wide-spread in the gay community...look at the ads that read: "Straight-acting, no femmes!" How sad.

I believe you are correct in your assertion that the most anti-gay people are harboring feelings they cannot reconcile in themselves. There have been studies to that effect that show those with the most violent anti-gay persons were titillated by "gay porn." In psychology, it is seen as "transference." In literature, it is best described by Shakespeare..."Me thinks the lady doth protest too much!"

I hope that you are involved with helping teens and others come to grip with their sexuality. From the way you wrote, it seems to me that you may have a big heart and a kind way of helping others.

Brightest Blessings!

[bloom]

43. ....

That is so sad for your dad (and probably your mom as well).

What a crazy world. I'm glad you figured it out.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. If it is, all I can say is....

Thanks for the "genes" MOM! :) I love being me, and that includes being gay!

Brightest Blessings!

[Catfight]

33. what about gay women?

[shrike]

39. Seems to run on my mother's side of the family

She has three siblings, one is not married and the other two have four children apiece. Two out of the four children in each family are gay -- though two are male, two are female.

Therefore, I always wondered if homosexuality is somehow inherited. The next generation of our family is young yet, so we'll see.

[Yavin4]

42. Makes Sense To Me

Homosexuality may be nature's way of controlling population growth. Too many of one species will destroy the planet. So, there's some kind of genetic instruction to alter the sex drive of a percentage of the population.

Thus, heterosexuals are the reason for there being homosexuals.