Lynndie England, soldier shown in Iraq abuse photos, gives birth

[DuctapeFatwa]

Pfc. Lynndie England, the soldier seen in some of the most notorious photos with naked Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison, is a new mother.
The 21-year-old reservist had the baby on Sunday at the post hospital at Fort Bragg, Col. Billy Buckner, public affairs officer for the 18th Airborne Corps, said Wednesday.

Post officials said they do not know whether the baby was a boy or a girl, but the Baltimore Sun said it was a boy, citing an unnamed military source.

England's father, Kenneth England of Fort Ashby, W.Va., said the family would not release information about the birth.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-10-13-england_x.htm

[jackieforthedems]

1. Wonder If The Kid's Part Iraqi?!

:shrug:

[saigon68]

46. OFFICIAL LYNNDIE ENGLAND FAN CLUB SITE

http://fourstrings.fanspace.com/photo2.html

[jackieforthedems]

52. Ewww!!!

Lol!

[Dark Jedi]

106. Wouldn't that be funny?

LOL. My first thought's exactly! GMTA :)

[gratuitous]

2. Should we have a DU baby shower?

I dibs the little child harness!

[kysrsoze]

3. Gave birth to Damien Thorn, perhaps? Check that kid's scalp.

I'm thoroughly disgusted.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. I pity the child..he didn't ask to be born to an abusive mother

[soothsayer]

5. YOu can't tell if Lynndie is a boy or girl, so it must be a spitting image

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tom_paine]

7. I believe it was her fellow Stormtrooper

Nazi Love is sooooo sweet and tender, ain't it?

[KitSileya]

44. Please, that was uncalled for.

This is a child we're talking about, and if he or she faces these kinds of attitudes for the rest of his or her life, I fear for their emotional well-being.

My father is the son of a German soldier stationed in Norway during WWII. After the war, such children were abused, taunted, shunned, and, in some cases, separated from their mothers and given away. We look upon horror at what Lynndie England did, rightly so, but let us not extend that reaction to her child. What need is there for taunting Lynndie England in this thread?

KitSileya

[Zhade]

86. "What need is there for taunting Lynndie England in this thread?"

Yeah, why should we mock and scorn a woman who engaged in war crimes?

</sarcasm>

Her kid's off-limits, I agree. But fuck England. She could have said no - and what's more, she surely took pleasure in her actions. To hell with her.

[Zynx]

8. Daddy's that redneck thug prison guard abuse king Graner

How sweet.

[Catfight]

9. Did she give a thumbs up and light a cigarette? n/t

[Rufus T. Firefly]

11. How did it take 9 posts before someone said that?

Good one.

[Catfight]

13. slow DU morning? n/t

[readmylips]

10. She should be forced to give up the child for adoption....

she's unfit to be a mother. The child needs a better life through adoption.

[coalition_unwilling]

14. Have we forgotten "due process of the law"?

I do not in any way condone the actions depicted in the photos of England, but she has yet to receive "her day in court". If you read Sy Hersh's "Chain of Command," you'll quickly see that England and her fellow enlistees were pawns in a nefarious Bush agenda to invalidate the Geneva Conventions.

Seriously, do you think a PFC came up with the idea of sexual humiliation of Arab males all on her own?

Enlistees are the "working class" of the U.S. Military; I think DU should support the interests of that working class when those interests run counter to the U.S. Military's "ruling class", i.e., its Officer Corps.

Much as it may hate to admit it, the typical DU-er has way more in common with England than it does with Rumsferatu and Kindasleezy.

[tabasco]

24. Enlisted men and women are subject to the law as well ...

and are trained that it is their DUTY to not obey illegal orders, and to report it to the next higher commmander. I agree that the higher ups should be punished, but I am not excusing those of lower ranks. If more of the enlisted personnel in that MP unit had acted correctly, this scandal would have been known sooner, and less Iraqis would have been tortured and killed.

[coalition_unwilling]

47. You need to read Hersh's book. This was not a scheme cooked

up by lowly enlistees. For all we know, she never even received instructions in what is\isn't an illegal order, nor that she did try to report what was going on.

That's what I mean by 'due process of the law' in an adversarial setting.

"Due process of the law" doesn't only apply to certain people, e.g., the detainees at Gitmo, and not to others, like Lyndie England. It's a right that belongs to all people under the U.S. jurisdiction.

[tabasco]

53. I didn't say it was a scheme cooked up by so called ...

"lowly" enlistees. I would not use that word to describe junior enlisted personnel. I said the junior personnel need to be held accountable for their crimes just as senior leaders.

All Army personnel receive training in the Law of Land Warfare. It is mandatory yearly training. Even if England did not receive the training, no mentally competent person is excused for torture of a helpless person.

If in fact England did not receive all mandatory training, then her commanders are liable for not following orders. But not getting formal training does not excuse criminal conduct.

I am familiar with due process of law. It is a rather important concept in my profession.

On edit: I think the chain of command all the way up to Rumsfeld and Bush are responsible for these war crimes. They created the command climate in which abuse was overlooked. But the junior troops should be punished as well. I am a soldier myself, and I am absolutely disgusted by the actions of these MPs (and other troops).

[coalition_unwilling]

55. Sorry, didn't mean to sound snippy in my post(s)

Merely to say that I remember reading or hearing somewhere that those enlistess were from a Maintenance batallion (not sure if England herself was) and may have never gotten much instruction in what constitutes an unlawful order.

A trial in an adversarial setting should help to illuminate that issue (among others), altho the precedent of the My Lai courts martial does not give one cause for great optimism.

[tabasco]

85. No prob. Most of the troops that have been implicated so far...

(including England) are from a reserve MP company from Cumberland, MD. I'm not sure about troops from other units.

I agree that My Lai was a big whitewash. Calley and others should still be in jail. I don't have much sympathy for war criminals. I have two infantry combat tours and I have never been so fkkked up that I lost all sense of right and wrong. Yes, mistakes happen - but intentional murder and torture are not why I was wearing the uniform. I hope these a**holes get maxed out and do serious time in Leavenworth. But like you say - not too optimistic on that.

[LibertyorDeath]

54. Thank you for this

"Enlisted men and women are subject to the law as well ...

and are trained that it is their DUTY to not obey illegal orders, and to report it to the next higher commmander. I agree that the higher ups should be punished, but I am not excusing those of lower ranks. If more of the enlisted personnel in that MP unit had acted correctly, this scandal would have been known sooner, and less Iraqis would have been tortured and killed."

To any torture apologists at the DU you make me :puke:
:puke: :puke:

[Southpaw Bookworm]

38. But that's not where she was stationed

She was working in a completely different unit and was just there to visit her fuck buddy. So I don't think the Nuremburg "she was following orders" excuse holds.

[coalition_unwilling]

49. The "just following orders" excuse was held invalid

by the Nuremburg Tribunal. But, for all we know, she never received any training in what is\isn't an 'illegal order', nor many of the other particulars.

'Due process of the law' means nothing if it's not available to everyone under U.S. jursidiction. And it means nothing if there's not a truly adversarial setting.

Don't convict her before she's tried.

On edit: Or, in my opinion, you're not much different from Ashcroft&Co.

[Zhade]

87. "We were just following orders" didn't work for Nazis, either.

It is a soldier's duty to disobey illegal orders - which the actions in Abu Ghraib clearly were.

[Charon]

110. We were just following orders

When I was in the service,some years back, we were told that it would most probably be determined at our General Courts Martial if an order was legal or illegal.

[Laughing Mirror]

16. How do you know she's an unfit mother?

Would you have liked to be taken from your mother?

I didn't think so.

[China_cat]

34. How do you tell an unfit mother?

Start with actions while pregnant. She smoked while carrying the baby and there were also reports of her drinking. I'd have more sympathy for the mother/child 'bond' if she had had more concern for the things we now know interfere with fetal development.

[Laughing Mirror]

43. My mother commited both those crimes, before, during and after my birth

and so did most of the mothers in my neighborhood at that time and place. It might surprise them to know they were unfit mothers and that their children should be taken from them.

[LibertyorDeath]

57. "How do you know she's an unfit mother" ROFLMAO

"How do you know she's an unfit mother" DUH !!!

Would you leave your child with this fucking maggot.

Didn't fucking think so. Double DUH!!

[Laughing Mirror]

64. Yes I would leave my child with her

Where I grew up, you left your children with whoever was there. And most of the women resembled Lynndie in one way or another. We didn't have wonderful mothers with beautiful minds like Barbara Bush to look after our kids. We, kids ourselves, filled the nanny role. Parents have even left their children with me to look after, incredible as that is even for me to believe.

Lynndie said torture and rape were all right. At least she was honest. I'm sure her superiors that taught her it was the right thing, considering the circumstances, would shriek in horror at what she did, but silently agree with what she said. I think ignorant Lynndie was taught by them that the prisoners she was torturing and raping, I think it had been beaten into her in her training that the prisoners she was responsible for were the lowest filth on the planet (they were all terrorists who were responsible for 9-11, remember?), and so any treatment she gave them was acceptable, anything goes.

I do not condone torture or rape or killing of any human being whatsoever. But I would submit that more than one guard or caretaker have pretty much the same opinion as Lynndie, specifically where Iraqi prisoners are concerned. But these guards haven't been caught or court-martialed. No one has proposed taking their newly born children away.

Yes I would leave my children with Lynndie because I really do not believe, and I don't think anybody else here does either, that she would extend her torture/abuse sentiments to her own children or to mine.

[LibertyorDeath]

66. Good luck with that

"Yes I would leave my children with Lynndie because I really do not believe, and I don't think anybody else here does either, that she would extend her torture/abuse sentiments to her own children or to mine."

I'm glad I'm not your Kid.

I'll be polite & suggest with all sincerity that your judgement may be a little off.

[Laughing Mirror]

67. Good luck with your hating and condemnation of ignorant stooges

you don't even know.

[LibertyorDeath]

69. That's right I have an opinion about this Sick Fuck

and I haven't even met her. Go figure an opinion about someone I do not personally know what a novel concept.

I or you or anyone else do not need to KNOW someone to judge their actions as sick & a reflection of who they are.

If someone in your community was arrested for torturing people in the basement of their House having an opinion about this person "you don't even know." as a Sick Twisted Fuck is perfectly valid.

[Laughing Mirror]

73. You cannot say that some sick fuck hired to torture prisoners

is then going to torture her children. I really am baffled by this, and am sorry I really don't understand your reasoning.

[LibertyorDeath]

80. That's a feeble response

"You cannot say that some sick fuck hired to torture prisoners
is then going to torture her children."

I did not say that. I said she is a sick fuck & a unfit Mother.
I did not say she was destined to torture her children.
You do not have to torture your children to be an unfit Mother.

You could
Choose to consistently ignore their physical & emotional needs & IMO that would qualify as an unfit mother.




"I really am baffled by this, and am sorry I really don't understand your reasoning."

So your baffled that a Woman who willfully Tortured others would be considered an unfit mother.

"I really don't understand your reasoning."


It takes Logic to understand Reason and in my book anyone who would say this is sorely lacking in both.

"Yes I would leave my children with Lynndie because I really do not believe, and I don't think anybody else here does either, that she would extend her torture/abuse sentiments to her own children or to mine."

"and I don't think anybody else here does either"

Think again.

[Laughing Mirror]

82. She is being tried for torturing prisoners

She has not been convicted of torturing children.

You call her an unfit mother. She may be an unfit prison guard, but I cannot call a mother who is being tried for torturing prisoners an unfit mother.

[LibertyorDeath]

91. ROFLMAO

"but I cannot call a mother who is being tried for torturing prisoners an unfit mother."

That is a very REPUGnant statement


Your Logic is Fucked IMO

If this is seriously your thought out point of view then we have nothing more to discuss.

[Eloriel]

97. No, LIbertyorDeath, your logic is the one that's flawed

From an earlier post of YOURS:

"How do you know she's an unfit mother" ROFLMAO

"How do you know she's an unfit mother" DUH !!!

Would you leave your child with this fucking maggot.

Didn't fucking think so. Double DUH!!


Aside from extreme questions of mental stability perhaps, the ONLY way you can judge an "unfit mother" is after she's served in the role of mother. You CANNOT make that judgment ahead of time. And as repugnant as her actions at Abu Ghraib may be, that has no bearing (and shouldn't) on her "fitness" as a mother.

And you're sounding dangerouisly misogynist for insisting there is some nexus and that she and her child should be denied their natural relationship. Your punitive, anti-woman attitude toward mothers you don't approve of, wanting to deprive them and their children of the natural bond between them, is quite unattractive -- tho unfortunately not surprising -- on a so-called progressive board.

If parents abuse or neglect their children, a JUDGE will make the determination whether or not the children need to be protected for their own safety by being removed from the home temporarily, or perhaps the situation is such that it can be monitored by the state children's services. If removed from the home, the child is put in a foster home -- always a very traumatic thing for the kids, EVEN if their parents were horribly abusive -- and the child's mother/father given a chance to correct the problems. In my state the process takes up to 2 or more years (we try not to let the foster care situation drag on forever, IOW to find permanent solution for the kids).

I have at times been so sad that some of the children I worked with were sent back to their parents, but it's a very difficult thing. Children need their REAL parents, when those parents are at least capable of not harming them, and the law recognizes this. We absolutely do NOT want the State in a position to determine that some women aren't "good ENOUGH" mothers while we still protect the children from the worst. Thus, many children will be sent back to homes where their life prospects are NOT as good as they might be with foster parents or adoptive parents who could care for them better, but again, we cannot have the State making decisions to give children to people who might be "better" parents if the child's own parents aren't as good (and "neglect" has to be pretty severe to be considered neglect in the eyes of my State).

You, sir, have nothing on which to gauge Lynndie England's parenting fitness in advance of the fact. At this point, smoking and drinking while pregnant are not illegal, tho the rabit right is trying very hard to make it so that unhealthy things mothers do while pregnant CAN be prosecutable offenses. That's not a road we want to go down AT ALL, and if you think about it at all you'll agree.

[Chickenhawk Down]

105. A sadistic control freak is just that, regardless of the victim

First, apologies to everyone for the length, but...

It appears that you are confusing legalities with common sense. While it's true that a Judge may be legally forced to allow the most heinous parents to retain/regain custody, that doesn't mean it's right or wise to do so. By your logic serial killers, rapists and pedophiles, if ever achieving parole, should be considered acceptable as parents, until they prove otherwise. As someone who works with children, you KNOW that most abuse is never detected/reported/punished. Also as someone who places children back into abusive situations due to legal requirements, you KNOW children are frequently further abused and sometimes killed by those parents.

I can't help but wonder if your zeal to give a torturer the benefit of the doubt is due to your apparent guilt connected to your occupation. Your rationalization that these evil scumbags deserve the right to abuse innocent children because they got knocked up, smacks of the view that children are possessions and not people with the right to be protected from harm, regardless of the source.

Also, it IS illegal to provide alcohol etc. to children, why not also via the blood stream? It's completely illogical to suggest that that period of growth is any less important or deserving of protection. As anyone with any knowledge of fetal development knows, you can totally destroy a babies health by drinking/drugging while pregnant. BTW, NO I'm not part of the "rabid right", my views are as far left as you can get.

Finally, consider if you will, that this person is facing up to 38 YEARS in prison because of her crimes. Prison sentences are used to punish and to PROTECT SOCIETY FROM PEOPLE WHO POSE TANGIBLE THREATS. She has NO respect for the law, as demonstrated by her defense of her right to torture. Why would you expect she would obey the laws with respect to defenseless children, any more than she did for defenseless prisoners.

A sadistic control freak is a sadistic control freak regardless of the victim.

[DuctapeFatwa]

72. You might be right, but I would not bet your child's safety on it

nor his life, nor his innocence.

[Laughing Mirror]

74. Where I'm from, a babysitter was a low security priority for children

Life was not held in high esteem by a lot of people, and if there was any innocence around I never saw it.

[DuctapeFatwa]

78. That is an increasing cultural condition in the US, and Lynndie

is a product of that. However, in my opinion, a parent who tries to provide something better than that for their child does a noble thing.

[Laughing Mirror]

84. Yes, of course, any parent has higher aspirations for their child

But as you know Ductape, the reality of a poor family's circumstances mostly makes noble aspirations impossible. You have to deal with day to day survival. Aspirations are dreams, and highly unlikely.

[Sequoia]

22. NO She Should Not!

Who are you to pass judgement to say she's an unfit mother? Where I grew up in the south unwed mothers were basically forced to give up their babies so they wouldn't be "born into sin" and that babies needed a married couple to raise it. Nevermind that the mother had her heart cut from her breast at the same time. After all she's a sinner who fornicated and doesn't deserve to have that baby. So shame on you, and anyone who thinks this way. We women will not give up our babies just because someone like you thinks otherwise!!!!

[DuctapeFatwa]

33. Would you hire her as a care-giver for your children?

I don't mean to speak for other posters, but I have a notion that those who suggest that her child deserves a healthy normal life are not talking about her marital status.

She is on record, several times, as saying she didn't know her activities in Abu Ghraib were doing anything wrong.

It is her strongest defense, and the most ringing conviction of the culture, the society that produced her.

Miraculously, there are some Americans who oppose torture and sexual abuse. I realize those policies constitute divisive issue, and only bring it up to emphasize that in my opinion, no one is condemning her for getting pregnant out of wedlock.

[LibertyorDeath]

61. "Who are you to pass judgement to say she's an unfit mother"

In all seriousness I think she would qualify as an unfit mother because

SHE TORTURED OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AND SEEMED TO ENJOY IT

How fucking low does a person have to go before they are an unfit mother.

What the fuck do they have to do more than purposely and willfully Torture their fellow human beings who also are Mothers and Fathers .

WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY HAVE TO DO IN YOUR BOOK.

[tlcandie]

83. Does this then mean ..

that all of the soldiers and anyone participating in wars, executioners even.. lawyers, judges who participate in killings while knowing someone is innocent should be ... ? What? What about those of us who give our tax dollars w/o question to the government to carry out these horrible tragedies? Are we any less responsible because it is our tax dollars, our life's energy that makes those tax dollars, that continues to aide the horror and tragedies that keep piling up?

Hanged? Castrated? Isolated? Imprisoned?

I'm a bit baffled because from what I hear you saying is that any one of our soldiers, including the man in LBN who recently admitted to killing almost 50 Iraqis for nothing more than not stopping when they raised their hand, are guilty of nothing less.

Unless you have a sliding scale of guilt and judgment? Whereas killing innocents is less than torturing innocents, etc. ?

[reorg]

77. shame on you for defending this pig

In the classified files, some of the photographed soldiers also provide firsthand accounts of the abuses. Pvt. Lynndie England testified that on November 8th -- the evening of her twenty-first birthday -- she went to the Hard Site to visit Spc. Graner, her boyfriend. Just after midnight, seven Iraqi detainees accused of taking part in a fight at one of the many tent compounds used to house prisoners at Abu Ghraib were brought to Tier 1A. For England, the evening was a break from the tedium of her job processing prisoners. For Nori Al-Yasseri, detainee number 7787, it quickly became a "night which we felt like 1,000 nights."

Al-Yasseri and the other prisoners arrived at the Hard Site with empty sandbags over their heads to prevent them from seeing where they were and their hands bound behind their backs with plastic handcuffs. The guards threw the men against the walls until they collapsed on the floor in what England called a "dog pile." Some of the MPs took turns running across the room and leaping on top of the men. "A couple of the detainees kind of made an 'ah' sound, as if this hurt them or caused them some type of pain," Spc. Jeremy Sivits testified in a sworn statement. While the Iraqis were on the floor, England and Sgt. Javal Davis stomped on their fingers and feet. Sivits was certain that the men felt pain this time because he heard them scream. So did Sgt. Shannon Snider, who was working in an office on the top tier. Drawn by the cries of pain, Snider leaned over the railing and in a fury yelled down to Davis to stop abusing the prisoners. Davis stepped away from the men, and Snider left. "I believe that Sgt. Snider thought it was an isolated incident," Sivits testified, "and that when he ordered Sgt. Davis to stop, it was over." But it was just getting started.

After Snider had gone, the MPs pulled the prisoners to their feet one by one and removed their handcuffs. Graner, who had learned a few key phrases in Arabic, ordered the detainees to strip. As one prisoner took off his clothes, Graner cradled the man's head in one arm and smashed his fist into the naked and hooded man's temple. "Damn, that hurt!" Graner complained, waving his hand in the air. The prisoner went limp, and someone removed his hood. "I walked over to see if the detainee was still alive," Sivits testified. "I could tell that the detainee was unconscious, because his eyes were closed and he was not moving, but I could see his chest rise and fall, so I knew he was still alive." According to England, Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick made an X on another prisoner's chest with his finger and said, "Watch this." Then the six-foot-tall Fredericks punched the man in the chest. The hooded prisoner lurched backward and fell to his knees. He gasped for air. "Frederick said he thought he put the detainee in cardiac arrest," Sivits later told investigators. England was asked why she thought Frederick assaulted the man. "I guess just because he wanted to hit him," she said.

Eventually, all seven Iraqis were standing naked and hooded, and the MPs got out their cameras. A few pictures had been taken earlier in the evening, but now the abuse turned into a photo-op. Men taught to be ashamed of appearing naked in front of other men were forced to assume a series of humiliating and bizarre poses. Graner had them climb on top of each other to form a human pyramid, and the MPs took turns taking each other's picture standing behind the men. In one photo, Graner and England smile and give the thumbs-up sign behind the men, who are naked except for the green sandbags covering their heads. The Iraqis were made to crawl across the floor on their hands and knees while the guards rode on their backs. Two were posed as if performing oral sex on each other, and others were lined up against the wall and forced to masturbate while England pointed at their genitals and leered. And all the while, the Americans were laughing, cracking jokes and taking pictures.

An Army investigator later asked one of the seven Iraqis how he felt that night. "I was trying to kill myself," replied Hussein Al-Zayiadi, detainee number 19446, "but I didn't have any way of doing it."


http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/GRA408A.html

[kwyjibo]

28. The baby has a father, did he do something wrong just by association?

[Southpaw Bookworm]

40. No, he was one of the other torturers

I believe he's likewise being courtmartialed.

[Mizmoon]

99. So, the criteria for removing children from their mother

is that the mother did "bad things" while pregnant? So how far does this go? If she didn't drink milk every day, are those grounds for removing children? If she lived in L.A. knowing that the smog could hurt her baby, should the baby be removed?

[sniffa]

12. have you seen the sonogram?

awww, just Like mom. :evilgrin:

[Coventina]

15. My heart aches for that baby....

what kind of life is that child going to have?
:cry:

[BlueEyedSon]

18. Well, considering the kid's mother...

:scared:

[Laughing Mirror]

19. what kind of life did the children of Donald Rumsfeld or George Bush have?

The children, that is, of torturers, who have even made fun of the people they've tortured, even if they haven't actually been caught flagrant delit with the leash in their hands. Of course, they didn't grow in trailer parks, so I guess that lets them off the hook.

[Zynx]

25. Rich ones

n/t

[bluedeminredstate]

17. Some of these comments

make it hard to tell the difference between DU and FR. C'mon her looks? Her degree of attractiveness?
I agree with the other poster - much of this scorn should be heaped upon her civilian bosses - Rummy & Bush. And I doubt if it was, their looks would be brought into it.

[bhunt70]

32. agreed. I hope the son has a good life but there is certainly a stigma

[Desertrose]

20. the saddest thing to me is her lack of awareness of what she did...

WWthat is the fact)...

If Lynndie hasn't a clue that what she did was so far beyond human decency, then I do feel for her child. If she ever "wakes up" and realizes what she did to other fellow human beings, then SHE is the one who will have to live with it.

Ultimately, WE are the ones responsible for our actions.....we have to know what is "right" ....if people could just walk a mile in the other person's skin...it might stop a lot of hatred & violence.

I feel sorry for Lynndie, her child, the Iraqis and the rest of us.

There's a lot of "waking up" that needs to be done here in the US & the world.....sigh........



(on edit :hi: DuctapeFatwa...nice to see you :) )

[JitterbugPerfume]

27. DesertRose

as usual , you gave a wise and sensitive response

I pity us all--- how could Democtats say such things about an innocent child?????

[jackstraw45]

21. First baby PHOTO HERE - wondering about the REAL father....

[CO Liberal]

23. I'll Bet The Kid Had a Leash Instead of an Umbilical Cord

:-)

[Blue_Tires]

26. piss on her

she has had NO remorse at all for the part she played in all this....my only wish was that she gave birth in jail

[Chelsea Patriot]

104. The Bitch should've done everyone a favor and died in childbirth.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

29. Baby's name: "Benito Adolf Englund"!

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

58. Interesting...

You misspelled the last name to be the same as Robert Englund (Freddy Krueger). Is it a typo or are you speculating as to paternity?

[onehandle]

30. Just what we need. More ignorant people. nt

[bhunt70]

31. good luck to the son.

[Emboldened Chimp]

35. Bet she names him Damien

[ProfessorGAC]

36. This Is News, How?!?!?!?

Women give birth every single day. So some cretin who signed up for the army and then embarassed the whole country, world-wide, has a baby and it's news.

This is deplorable and indicative of the state of the news business.

Two words: WHO CARES?
The Professor

[Swamp Rat]

75. My sentiments exactly

I'm more concerned about mercury in my drinking water and oil barons controlling foreign policy...

[MADem]

37. That poor child

...will probably be raised by Granma, who was no doubt thrilled when Lynndie went into the reserves to earn money for college, and could help out the family with the little bit of income she got from her two weekends a month, two weeks a year. In a town where McDonald's is a good job, that poor woman probably was so happy that her daughter had found a career.

I am with those who say that Lynndie is not the problem here. She may have been stupid, easily led, eager to be a part of a crowd that turned out to be nefarious brutalizers, but I have seen her mother on TV and I don't think she was "raised wrong." I think she probably had a weakness of character, or was readily influenced by people that she perceived as having the ultimate power. She made some horrible, brutal mistakes that will haunt her for the rest of her life. And her baby, by association, will have to swat that fly for the rest of his innocent life.

I'm not blaming any junior enlisted personnel in this Abu Gharib mess. That is just too easy. Put the blame where it belongs, on the bastards giving the orders, on the so-called military leaders who knew what was going on and did nothing, and on this administration, for putting a hotel manager in charge of a slew of wartime prisons and then hanging her out to dry when her authority was removed from her while her responsibility was not relieved.

It's funny--we admire and reward service personnel who are quick to follow an order, we promote them for it, in fact. The enthusiastic soldier who leaps to obey a command is the one that any leader wants on their team. She was probably a gung-ho kid when she joined. You have to wonder how she would have turned out with the right supervision.

So, count me out of the "piling on" crowd. It is a sad, shameful situation that has dishonored our country and our Armed Forces, but Lynndie England was not the officer in charge--she was simply a very badly led, very JUNIOR subordinate, who is paying the greatest price of all of those accused for her misdeeds, simply because of her GENDER--do you think anyone would be singling her out if she were a male doing those same things? Of course not. Her involvement stokes the fires of the "No Wimmens in the Military" crowd, the barefoot and pregnant bunch--neanderthals, all.

I'd be satisfied if they give General Sanchez, SecDef Rumsfeld, and his pet Wolfie the same or greater sentence that she gets. She did commit crimes, but if we are going to rate them, hers are not the greatest crimes committed at that facility by any stretch--but she seems to be taking the worst of the heat.

[Ilsa]

79. She can be a lot of "bad" things, but this doesn't necessarily make

her a bad mother. I wouldn't be so quick to yank her baby away from her. She might be a great mom to this baby.

As much as I advocate for women taking care of themselves in pregnancy, I don't believe in taking their babies away from them because they had addiction problems. It doesn't necessarily mean they are going to be bad parents. The risk has to be assessed with each case. One-size-fits-all type of judgement and justice belongs with the GOP, IMO.

[Zhade]

88. Sorry, she's culpable. "Just following orders" got Nazis hung, too.

She was taught (and to suggest otherwise is just not true) that there are certain things soldiers are not allowed to do, thanks to the Geneva Convention. Then she was told to go against what she was taught.

Her duty, as taught to her during her learning of the GC, is to disobey illegal orders. She committed war crimes, and is culpable for her actions.

Yes, one can feel bad for her being placed in that position, but in the end, SHE decided to hold the leash and smile. She is responsible for her actions.

[951]

39. Uhhh disgusting

I hope she commits suicide so that kid won't have to grow up with that horrifically ugly monster.

[kskiska]

41. No one's mentioned that the kid's father is Spc. Charles Graner

Attorneys say the child's father is Spc. Charles Graner Jr., England's ex-boyfriend, who is also shown in the prison photographs, including one with a dead body packed in ice in a body bag.

England and Graner are among of seven members of the 372nd Military Police Company of Cresaptown, Md., charged in connection with abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib prison late last year.

[saigon68]

42. Lovely Lynndie--- An encore performance

[tlcandie]

45. It appears to me we each have our own lessons to learn...

our own path to walk in our own way in our own time. I dare say that few have much good to speak of me from many years past! They do not know me now, but I'm sure they would tell you all sorts of things...

Let me see... unfit mother who gave her child up to her parents for adoption, whore, slut, husband stealer (several times), committed adultry on more than one occasion, drank till I blacked out, married ummm let me see 7 times now?

Okay, I'm waiting for the stone throwing here. :+

I'm not who I use to be and isn't it interesting that children often are the catalyst that awakens and opens the eyes to many parents? I know that my grandchildren are beautiful beyond all belief to me! I know that the stars sing in their veins! I know that they speak the voices of angels upon birth before we teach them to unlearn what we consider as gibberish. I know they have moved me beyond all my expectations and shine Light and Love to me with just a smile or a Hello Grandma or an I love you Grandma or a hug! :cry:

Who here will take a crying child from its mother and explain that YOU judged her not worthy as that child matures?

Who here was perfect when they were younger or even now for that matter and has no skeletons or shit in their closets so you feel you can do this judging?

Who here would deny a chance to change to any being? Each of us is full of possibilities at any moment in time and capable of awakening to the Truth of our selves.

I will hold the Light up for Lyndie and her new baby with hope and vision for a wonderful future for not only mother and child, but for all who are touched by their lives.

[JusticeForAll]

50. What a beautiful post

You are a butterfly.

[DuctapeFatwa]

51. OK, I'll tell you why Lynndie is an unfit mother

This is a young woman who has publicly stated, several times, that she does not see anything wrong with torture and sexual abuse.

Those who point out that culpability goes up up and up the ladder are correct.

Lynndie, however is the only one who has brought this innocent human being into the world, she is the only one who will be imparting her values to this innocent human being.

I suspect that if a guest on a reality or "talk" show came up to the microphone and announced that she did not think sexual abuse and torture are wrong, and then proclaimed that she planned to raise a child, there would be few here or elsewhere who would not hasten to apply the "u" word.

Yes, she is being scapegoated. Henry Kissinger is still at large, and until the inevitable occurs, Donald Rumsfeld et al will be similarly at large.

However, the fact that her superiors are also to blame does not absolve her of moral responsibility for HER OWN actions, nor does it make her any less unfit to raise a child.

It has nothing to do with whether she is married or not.

[LibertyorDeath]

71. Thank You

You lowered my blood pressure.

[Zhade]

93. EXACTLY.

Stunning to see people excuse an unrepentant torturer simply because she's a new mom.

I feel for that kid. His will not be an easy life.

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

60. You were right to give up your child.

It was painful, I'm sure, but if your parents are not also problem drinkers the child was better off for it.

There is nothing about being a biological parent that automatically makes you better or worse than anyone else to parent your child.

The "whore, slut" etc. part of your confessional isn't worth a response. These epithets get thrown at every woman. Grow a skin, and learn from the times YOU know you were wrong.

Ending a marriage isn't a bad thing to do. A relationship that can be broken deserves breaking.

It would be no favor to the child in question to grow up as an England-Graner. Imagine the shadow that would hang over his or her whole life. Best that adoption happen quickly, before the child can have the faintest memory of the birth mother.

[tlcandie]

81. Ask my child that today...

He does not agree with you. Even though I quickly pointed out my life to you, I did not post everything.

I have no issues anymore with any of this, so I do not need to grow a skin. If you could not tell that I have learned from my life's lessons, good and bad, then I'm not sure you took time to truly read what I posted. :+ I was not looking for anyone to give me solace or to comfort me or to praise me. I was merely stating something to give you a chance to possibly look at the whole picture and not just a part.

My parents were not great parents, but they did the best they could with what they had. Who is to say what is better or not better?

Is it better to grow up with parents who are too busy for you, yet you have everything in the world? Parents who give you everything you want and take you anywhere you want? Who work day and night so you can have everything they did not have? Who emotionally and mentally abuse you? Parents who abuse one another physcially as well as emotionally and mentally?

Or is it better to be dirt poor and one of 25 brothers and sisters who slept 6 to a bed and as a male child wore girls clothes into your junior high school years? Yet, you had all the love in the world and came to know the earth and those who live from her for daily survival? Living cold and hungry more times than not? Yet, you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you were loved!

Believe as you may. See as you will. The choice is always your's and your's alone. All I'm saying is that sometimes you must remove your nose from the pile of shit to see that it might not be a pile of shit. :+ We all have dark and light. Every moment of every day we decide what part of ourselves we show, but each of us has the potential to let the brighter side of ourselves shine through... the question is what will be the catalyst? Who will play the dark side catalyst out of Love to bring forth the Light within another being? That one tiz a brave soul indeed!

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

89. Like every choice, it's the lesser of two evils

The "light within" stuff, I'm sorry, leaves me totally cold.

[tlcandie]

92. Only if you see it that way....

:+ May that you warm up one day! :hug:

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

94. My view: some people really, truly suck

And two of them are Lynndie England and Charles Graner.

Hug accepted, however. :)

[Zhade]

95. "My parents were not great parents" - but did they torture people?

Did they enjoy it? See nothing wrong with it?

With all due respect, your situation and this one are light-years apart.

[Zhade]

90. "Who here would deny a chance to change to any being?"

So you're willing to entrust this child's life to a woman who tortured people, liked it, smiled about it, and saw nothing wrong with it?

Maybe my capacity for giving people second chances isn't as large as yours. I'm mostly thinking about the danger to this newborn, totally innocent kid, not giving a torturer a second chance. Silly me.

[tlcandie]

98. Zhade...

There is no guilt here for you. I'm not Lyndie's or anyone else's God or Godess...I only answer to myself for myself.

What IF everyone here agreed that Lyndie should be made to give up her child because we all think she is a total piece of crap who does not deserve anything good on this earth much less a child?

So, then if we decide that then we must decide who will raise the child given to her to raise.

Say we make a decision with the best knowledge we have at the time and we put the child with this person or person's. Down the road, we find out that she had been sexually abused/raped/tortured...whatever (none are great to think about) and she/he blames us because all along she/he could have been with her birth Mom.

Then what?

I'm not asking you to agree or disagree with me. I'm only presenting other possible scenarios to consider to make sure decisions aren't reached with limited vision.

[Zhade]

100. Well, you're contrasting a known unrepentant torturer...

...with a hypothetical possibility.

I think it's irresponsible to suggest that because the child MIGHT be taken away from a known predator (and let's be clear: the fact that England enjoyed the torture and sees nothing wrong with it indicates she is of a predatory nature) and placed with someone who MIGHT do wrong, that we should leave well enough alone.

England, were justice to be served, would be behind bars right now, and this wouldn't even be an issue, since someone else would have to raise her child anyway.

I'm all for turning over a new leaf and second chances, but it's madness to think that someone capable of dishing out what England did to grown men couldn't very well do the same to her child when she still doesn't understand that the torture she took part in was wrong.

[tlcandie]

101. Does this mean...

that all of the soldiers and anyone participating in wars, executioners even.. lawyers, judges who participate in killings while knowing someone is innocent should be ... ? What? What about those of us who give our tax dollars w/o question to the government to carry out these horrible tragedies? Are we any less responsible because it is our tax dollars, our life's energy that makes those tax dollars, that continues to aide and pay the salaries for people such as Lyndie England who commit the horror and tragedies that keep piling up?

Hanged? Castrated? Isolated? Imprisoned? Beheaded? Crucified?

I'm a bit baffled because what I'm hearing is that any one of our soldiers, including the man in LBN who recently admitted to killing almost 50 Iraqis for nothing more than not stopping when they raised their hand, are guilty of nothing less.

Unless you have a sliding scale of guilt and judgment? Whereas killing innocents is less than torturing innocents, etc. ?

:shrug:

[foo_bar]

109. the difference is, England relished in delivering it personally

I agree that the relish doesn't affect judgment of guilt, but it indicates this person shouldn't be left alone with weaker people.

But then, at least 30% of Americans (or foster parents) would do the same thing in her boots, so I have to agree about the devil you know. Denial is an understandable reaction where Ms. England is somewhat routine in what humanity has to offer.

[LibertyorDeath]

111. "I'm a bit baffled"

Yes that's pretty fucking obvious.

[LibertyorDeath]

112. Thank you it's like a alternate universe here some days

There's a lot to be said for common sense.
Common sense should tell you a lot of things but leaving a child with a sicko like this SHOULD NOT BE ONE OF THEM.

Thank you Zhade for a great post.

[Crunchy Frog]

107. I've never tortured or sexually abused anyone.

Have you?

[VegasWolf]

48. Wonder if Rummy sent her a congrats card?

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

56. Child should be taken away and put up for adoption

She is a known abuser and the child will be forever marked if he/she grows up as the child of two famous torturers. Best if the child never knows who parents were.

[Piperay]

70. That's for sure

people like that shouldn't raise a child, it's unfair to the child.

[Bonobo]

59. How many fingers/toes does it have?

[Rockholm]

62. Where do I send the dog collar and leash gift?

THat is very mean I know, but sadly this was my first thought.

[Seabiscuit]

63. One has to wonder if she's fit to be a mother, after Abu Ghraib

n/t

[Bluebear]

65. If it's a girl: THUMBELINA!

[sofa king]

68. I'm sure she's very proud.

[scarlet_owl]

76. It pains me that human filth like this can have children

but decent people like my husband and I can't. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Zhade]

96. That is a tragedy. You have my sympathy.

NT!

[RedG1]

102. "Mommie Dearest 2004"

[truthbetold]

103. Congratulations...

That being said, you are a disgusting piece of filth.

[Crunchy Frog]

108. God help that kid,

and God help a society that thinks that people like England and Graner are fit to be parents.

I very much hope that it is put up for permanent adoption as soon as humanly possible.