Vietnam's Christians persecuted as state sees hidden enemy

[T_i_B]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=572313

Thirty years after Vietnam defeated America, the communist government has made its peace with capitalism. Huge propaganda posters featuring party slogans stand alongside gaudy neon billboards advertising cars and French perfume, unexpected in one of the world's four remaining communist countries. Last year the US became Vietnam's biggest trading partner, giving Hanoi the second-fastest growing economy in Asia. Increased economic liberty has brought the Vietnamese personal freedoms unimaginable a decade ago.

With the easing of restrictions, evangelical Protestantism has exploded, and is practised in thousands of illegal "house churches". This is anathema to the communist government who apply strict regulations to "approved" religions. Government officials fear evangelical Christianity, viewed as "a religion that originates in America", is being used to undermine Communism through peaceful revolution.

Last Easter, thousands of ethnic minority tribes people took part in demonstrations in the Central Highlands. They were protesting against the confiscation of ancestral lands and religious repression. The marches, attended by around 30,000, according to Human Rights Watch, were brutally quashed by the military. Most of the Montagnards - the collective French name for the Highlanders - are Protestants.

"The Montagnards have always been at the bottom of the social structure," said John, an undercover western missionary who has been working in the Highlands for nearly 40 years. "Then along comes the Christian message. For tribal people who have been oppressed by the system. They stand up and say we can't be pushed around. When the systems sees an alternate ideology developing it begins to persecute."

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[T_i_B]

10. So it's OK to kill Christians then?

[Nlighten1]

2. I wouldn't call them hidden but...

I would agree that they are the enemy. However, genocide isn't the way to deal with them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

3. I'm sorry...I must have missed the reference to "genocide"...

...where did you find it in the article?

[Nlighten1]

6. Doh

It doesn't say that. I mistakenly leaped to that conclusion.

[Bandit]

4. Are you saying the enemies are The Montagnards?

These are some of the finest people I've ever met. They certainly are not my enemy.

[Nlighten1]

5. Not at all...

I'm saying Xians are trouble. But what can you do? Once the virus of Xiananity has been unleashed on the populace there really isn't any getting rid of it. Murdering the Xians won't stop them, they will just go underground and it will give the Xians in other parts of the world a reason to say..."see...Xians are persecuted"

Accomadating them, unfortunately just makes their base grow. Look at Korea now...the Buddhist religion is being pushed out of that country and it had been there for a thousand or more years. They actually have one of the biggest Xian churches in the world with around 800,000 members.

[T_i_B]

7. And the number one country for persecuting Christians...

..is you guessed it, North Korea.

I'm kinda worried by the approval of persecution and anti-Christian bigotry on this thread. Yet more proof that liberal claims to enlightenment and tolerance are a complete and utter lie.

Would you lot approve it it were another religion being persecuted? If not then why is it OK to hate Christians?

[Kenergy]

11. Would "you lot" approve it if gays were persecuted?

HYPOCRITE!
The reason I don't have any respect for Christians is because they
claim THEY are being persecuted, when Christians are persecuting
Gays, Jews, Catholics and Blacks, Muslims and anyone else who doesn't
buy into your "religion".
It's revelation religionists who don't have any tolerance for other
beliefs...get a clue.

[rfkrocks]

18. Oh good so you make assumptions based on a group

isn't that the same reasoning that led this country into war in Iraq-was Saddam and his cohorts true representatives of the Iraqis people, is the KKK a true representative of all white people-to judge billions of people based on fundies is not fair or reasonable-I am Christian and find no reason for persecuting gays-in fact I believe that is a great sin born of a similar fundie structure that executed Jesus-as to your point that only revelation religionists don't have tolerance for other people-how do you explain Suadi Arabia and China where the state is the religion-doesn't Tibbet suffer under the heel of a paternalistic state-far from a "revelation religionist" structure-true Christianity (that is the direct moral tenents given by Christ) is simply compassion for all people,love of them and humble worship of God-I understand your rage against the example of Christianity set by the bizarre religion of Bushco-but don't judge others by that standard

[Arianrhod]

22. Um, the KKK is a Christian organization.

You might want to think a little harder about the examples you use.

[Nlighten1]

23. Don't confuse them with facts....

it just angers them.

[Kenergy]

29. That was the point of my post...

fundies of all stripes are imposing their will on other people.
I apologize for making a harsh statement in my post,but fundies
need to quit imposing their beliefs on people who don't agree with
their doctrine.

[rfkrocks]

41. I totally agree

arrogance of the fundies (worldwide) is a clear impediment to the freedom of man. Religion and state don't mix period

[IHateFundies]

26. Fascinating!

"HYPOCRITE!
The reason I don't have any respect for Christians is because they
claim THEY are being persecuted, when Christians are persecuting
Gays, Jews, Catholics and Blacks, Muslims and anyone else who doesn't
buy into your "religion".
It's revelation religionists who don't have any tolerance for other
beliefs...get a clue."

This is an amazing piece of writing.

[T_i_B]

33. And yet again I ask this simple question

Would you lot approve if it were another religion being persecuted? If not then why is it OK to hate Christians?

Not one person who has wandered onto this thread to post bigoted abuse at Christians has been able to answer this as yet. Instead we have had people approving of killing Christians, labelling us the enemy etc. If it were any other group being targeted these comments would have been (quite rightly) pulled.

And they say liberals are supposed to be tolerant and opposed to prejudice? yeah right. :eyes:

[Nlighten1]

12. The Xians...

need to mend their own fences before they begin worrying about being "persecuted".

[Judi Lynn]

13. It could take centuries, too, if things went smoothly

and history didn't keep repeating itself!

[rfkrocks]

20. any person being persecuted is the business of a true Christian

I should be silent in the face of suffering of innocents because of the fact that they are Christians?-Why? is a child less worthy becuase he or she is a Christian? I see no difference in your words than all the undercurrent statements of the Bushco crew-judging billions of people is intellectual racism.

[T_i_B]

32. One could say the same thing

about the many atheists on DU who feel the need to make bigoted attacks on Christians at every opportunity then whine like stuck pigs when it is pointed out to them that they are in fact bigots of the highest order.

If you want to know why more and more Christians are turning to the right, look at your own attitudes towards Christians. I could have posted this article on free republic and got far more tolerant and liberal minded responses then I have on here.

Despite the best efforts of the moderators, Christians are increasingly not welcome on DU.

[robcon]

42. That sounds like...

Jews "need to mend their own fences before they begin worrying about being "persecuted". "

Muslims "need to mend their own fences before they begin worrying about being "persecuted". "

It's raw prejudice, masked as 'facts.'

It's disgusting bias, and has no place on DU.

[Nlighten1]

15. I don't "hate" anyone

and I don't advocate hating anyone. That being said though I have great disdain for anyone who closes their mind and embraces organized religion of any stripe. Religion is the antithesis of my very being. It requires that you ignore science and place faith in dogma. Dogma that has changed and mutated over 2 thousand years no less.

This blind faith in religion has cause untold horrors in the world throughout its existence.

Now when some Xian complains of Xians being persesecuted it is very difficult for me to muster up any sympathy.

I guess that makes me unenlightened and a bigot.

Good grief.

Thomas Jefferson is spinning in his grave.

[George_S]

30. Even if you consider Christianity an invasion

That would mean those getting killed there were conned. That would mean those who are victims of a con game deserve the death penalty.

[The Zanti Regent]

25. I remember what Gandhi said

..."I would gladly have become a Christian UNTIL I SAW THEM IN ACTION"

As for me, I have 37 reasons why I don't like Christians, and they are my known relatives murdered by Nazis.

And then there is that wonderful Christ-Centered frat called the KKK, you know, the one that loves to place STRANGE FRUIT on trees...

[T_i_B]

31. The Nazi's murdered Christians too!

Probbably one of the greatest theologians of the 20th century was Detrich Bonhoffer, who was murdered by the third reich in 1945.

The Nazi's were influenced by everthing from militant atheism (Nitchze or however it is spelt) to paganism (the less then fully sane Himmler is a good example of this). If you take the time to read up on the Nazi's then you will see that what they really worshipped was hate, and since 1945 Christianity as a whole has been trying to move further and further away from that, although many of the anti-Christian bigots on here tend not to notice the efforts of the church in that regard.

And as a good example of this, may I cite Martin Luther King and Desmond Tutu, or do you and Nlighten1 hate them for their religion too?

[SemperEadem]

35. I worry that fundie Christians feel they have a unilateral right to

exterminate other religions in any country in which their pride tells them they can invade to spread their brand of 'faith' to people who already have their own indiginous religions already in place.

I also worry that fundi-Christians put their pride before the tenets of their own faith and don't follow Jesus' teachings to the letter--then have the nerve to condemn and judge everyone else because they won't buy into their rhetoric.

BTW, the only intolerance around here are for those 'christians' who act only as christians in packaging, but not in deed. Jesus never said "only love those who do as I tell you to do". He said to love everyone, and discriminating against people because of race, creed, sexual orientation or religion is no where mentioned in anything he said, EVER.

[QC]

36. Have the Montagnards done those things? n/t

[Zynx]

14. You are a certifiable, uninformed bigot.

To respond to you with a logical argument would be equivilant to responding to the KKK or American Nazi Party.

[Nlighten1]

16. Riiiiiight.

And yet you responded. Thanks for playing.

Drive through now.

[Zynx]

17. You seem to believe that Christianity is evil without reason.

You clearly are an extremist.

[Nlighten1]

21. Evil without reason?

Are you serious? This seems to be a case were the messenger is getting shot. If you think the Xian church doesn't have its fair share of evilness....I have some news for you...

[Arianrhod]

24. "Evil without reason"?

*. Cheney. Ashcroft. Robertson. Swaggart. Torquemada. James I. Luther. Calvin. Cromwell. 150 years of witch burnings. The utter destruction of my ancestors. The utter destruction of the Native Americans. The utter destruction of the Albigensies. Institutionalized misogyny. Slavery. Contempt for science. Theft. Murder. Extortion. Torture. Oppression. Pedophilia.

There are plenty of reasons.

[Igel]

27. Only evil religion?

Last week in a Muslim country a woman was killed for sorcery.
Peoples in North Africa and Middle East arabized, their previous ethnic identities erased. Institutionalized misogyny. Slavery (Arabs beat the Portuguese in enslaving Africans). Contempt for science. Theft. Murder. Extortion. Torture. Oppression. Pedophilia.

You could put together a similar list for Buddhist and Hinduism or Shintoism, not just Christianity. The atheist Soviet Union and China produced many, many corpses in the name of the people.

Oh ... wait ... Islam and the others are abstractions, and you can't judge abstractions based on what their adherents do (even if in some cases the adherents specifically claim to be doing it in the name of their "religion"), whereas Christianity is judged based on its worst practitioners.

Just want to be clear on how we define hypocrisy here.

[QC]

34. Not all freepers are on the Right.

This thread has been a valuable reminder of that fact.

It's a pity, though, that we did not get to discuss the actual topic of the news story. It could have been interesting, if the usual suspects had not hijacked the thread and used it as nothing more than another opportunity to spew their complaints about religion for the thousandth time.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[T_i_B]

8. Vietnam: Montagnards Under Lockdown

Human rights watch article

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/27/vietna8626.htm

In a government crackdown following widespread Easter week demonstrations by Montagnards in April, hundreds of Vietnamese security forces, accompanied by armored vehicles, have been deployed to the Central Highlands.

An 11-page briefing paper by Human Rights Watch released today contains new eye-witness testimony from Montagnards in Vietnam and translations of handwritten reports by Montagnard church leaders in the Central Highlands province of Dak Nong.

“The Central Highlands are in a lockdown. Montagnards are unable to freely leave their villages, and they are threatened with violent reprisals if they try to relay news of the atrocities to the outside world,” said Sam Zarifi, deputy director of Human Rights Watch’s Asia Division.

Vietnamese government forces, and civilians acting on their behalf, beat and killed dozens of Montagnards during the demonstrations. Thousands of people had gathered to protest confiscation of ancestral lands and religious repression, according to numerous interviews with inhabitants of the Central Highlands.

[T_i_B]

9. More from Human Rights watch

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/27/vietna8625.htm

Vietnamese officials and civilians acting on their behalf beat and killed dozens of Montagnards during Easter week demonstrations in the Central Highlands, when thousands of people gathered to protest confiscation of ancestral lands and religious repression, according to new eyewitness testimony obtained by Human Rights Watch.

Large-scale unrest involving as many as 30,000 indigenous minority Montagnards occurred in the Central Highlands on April 10 and 11. Montagnard activists in Vietnam and abroad say that their movement seeks to peacefully press for religious freedom and return of ancestral lands in the Central Highlands. The Vietnamese government has charged that “anti-government” and “counter-revolutionary” elements are inciting the Montagnards to seek an independent state.

Recent interviews with sources in the Central Highlands confirm earlier eyewitness reports obtained by Human Rights Watch. Hundreds of demonstrators were wounded and many were killed by security forces and men in civilian clothing armed with crude weapons such as clubs and metal bars at key bridges and roadways leading into Buon Ma Thuot, the provincial capital of Dak Lak. According to witnesses, the demonstrators were not armed, although some defended themselves when attacked by throwing stones at the police.

[NNN0LHI]

19. Perhaps America should invade and occupy Vietnam to put a stop to this?

Oh, never mind. We tried that once already. Didn't work out so good.

Don

[George_Bonanza]

37. Some facts that should be known

First: Catholics are Christians, and to think otherwise is an extremist opinion.

Second: Christian does not mean "Southern Evangelical Nutcase". It refers to anybody who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior, and the Holy Trinity. The rest are details.

Third: Christianity, aka Protestantism, does not mean "Southern Evangelical Nutcase". FYI, the Presbyterian Church USA is one of the most pro-Palestinian churches in perhaps the world, and they're a big church too. Hardly the paradigm of an extremist right-wing church. There are several Baptist and Methodist churches who have come out against the Iraq invasion.

Fourth: extremists like Pat Robertson do not represent American Christianity. In fact, Robertson regards some fellow Christians (the Presbyterians) as Satan helpers.

Fifth: The KKK may be a Christian (or so-called Christian) organization, but so is that homeless shelter you see downtown.

Sixth: The big advantage that Bush has with Protestants is skewered by the fact that he is very big with White Male Evangelicals. He still gets hammered by the Black Protestants, while non-evangelicals are pretty much evenly split.

[JVS]

38. Good facts.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. my thoughts

Groups should not be rounded up and executed!

Christians, in the US and a few other countries, however, feel they are being "persecuted" because they cannot control every aspect of the government and others' lives. They are not content with their own lives and continue to make life "Hell" for those who do not prescribe to their particular views. It is not ALL Christians! This particular story reflects the belief of a government that is somewhat paranoid, but history would show they may be right. Christians have used their religion to destroy nations, enslave others, and deny basic rights to other citizens. Is Christianity the only religion to do this? Far from it! But, it is the MAJORITY religion in the US.

I have read a few of your other posts (in other threads) and you seem to see "persecution" in any thread that challenges or disagrees with Christianity. Yes, some here on DU are clearly anti-Christian, but not all people on DU are looking to get rid of Christians at DU. Methinks your a bit over-dramatic. As a matter of fact, let me be a tad over-dramatic and say that you are anti-Gay! I have noticed that in a few of your posts you state that it is OK to discriminate against Christians but not gays (not that you'd support that). Funny though, every time you make the its "OK to discriminate against Christians" argument, you use gays as the foil. Perhaps you are really saying..."Why do people here feel it is OK to discriminate against us good Christians, but those faggots get a free pass?" You are not the only one who does this. I have seen quite a few posts that are worded the same way...is it OK to discriminate against Christians but not gays? If I reversed it,(is it OK to discriminate against gays but not Christians ?) would you possibly think that I held a secret "disgust" for Christians? Do I really think you "hate" gays? Probably not, but I am wary of your motivations. This "paranoia" of mine could be even extended to your counter-claims about Hitler and Christianity. Instead of saying "yes, he is a BAD example of Christianity," you went on to say how he was influenced by atheism and paganism. Again, Christianity is pure, all other faiths are "evil." Again, that would be if I took that statement personally; I don't!

All in all, not everyone here is "out to get Christians." To be honest, I see more anti-female posts than anything!

[T_i_B]

40. No I don't

Where have I said that it is OK to discriminate against gays? Please provide link. The last thread I did on sexual matters was actually a thread entitled "say it loud, asexual and proud" in the editorials forum. Make of that what you will.

What I do say is that is is generally not acceptable to make bigoted statements against any group on DU, but Christians seem to be the exception to the rule. I may take homosexuality as an example but you could equally use other racial or religious groups. You will notce when I use these examples I say that prejudice against these groups is quite rightly not deemed acceptable.

Oddly enough the only other groups in line for such abuse on DU tend to be Jews and Muslims, usually in the Isreal/Palestine forum (perhaps unsuprisingly). That is something that I have to admit bothers me too. Perhaps fortunatly I have seem a lot less of that sort of behavour recently though, which can only be a good thing.

Without a shadow of a doubt though, there is a huge amount of bigotry and prejudice on DU when it comes to religion, and this surely is something that should be fought if we are not to make a mockery of the left's supposed reputation for tolerance and our supposed loathing of prejudice.

[pinkpops]

43. I agree but let me amend your opening statement

"Christians, in the US and a few other countries"...

might be stated as "people who call themselves Christians"