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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 10:30 PM
Original message
WP: Thousands Rally on the Mall To Protest Same-Sex Marriage
Thousands of people, many of them evangelical Christians, gathered on the Mall yesterday for a three-hour rally to protest same-sex marriage and defend what they call "biblical, traditional marriage."

Standing before huge silhouettes of a man and a woman facing each other, conservative Christian speakers warned that putting same-sex marriage on a legal par with heterosexual marriage would be dangerous to the nation's moral life.

James C. Dobson, chairman of the Colorado-based Focus on the Family, raised cheers at the "Mayday for Marriage" demonstration when he vowed not to let marriage "be thrown on the ash heap of history."

(snip)

"We believe it's important that the marriage be between men and women only," said Sean Bucek of Baltimore, who was with his wife, Adriana. "Families are falling apart. Children are not being raised up as they should be."

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36814-2004Oct15.html
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xray s Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. er...those are "traditional" marriages that are falling apart, right?
maybe we should outlaw traditional marriage, since its doing such a shitty job raising kids...
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
23.  you know where the highest divorce rate is in the US don't you?
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 08:04 AM by goodboy
the bible belt.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. ha
To paraphrase what they said about us when we protested the war, "they're all a bunch of slacking non working low lifes", kidding. Really though I don't care if a gay couple wants to marry, I don't see why it bothers people, Dobson is a fucking asshole, I forget where I heard this but someone had something that said "Focus on your own damn family", so true. He talks about family as it's like a uniform thing, but Dobson is wrong, it's not, families even "traditional ones" are diverse.
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opiate69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hmm.. "The ash-heap of history" ...
Assholes.. here's a great article outlining a bunch of varied types of marriages, anthropologically...



Politicians and the public in the US today are raising a question once pursued by anthropologists in the 1950s, namely, what should we mean by marriage? The politically charged issue concerns whether or not a constitutional definition of marriage can exclude same-sex couples. With over a century of experience in the study of kinship and marriage worldwide, anthropology can offer perspectives on this debate that may be of interest to our students or the general public.

Can Marriage Be Defined?
Many politicians claim that those advocating gay and lesbian marriage are trying to redefine marriage. But what anthropologists have learned is that from a global, cross-cultural perspective, “marriage” is in the first place extremely difficult, some would say impossible, to define. One anthropologist, Edmund Leach tried to define marriage in his 1955 article “Polyandry, Inheritance and the Definition of Marriage” published in MAN. Leach quickly gave up this task, concluding that no definition could cover all the varied institutions that anthropologists regularly consider as marriage. Rejecting Leach’s conclusion, Kathleen Gough attempted to define marriage cross-culturally in 1959 as an institution conferring full “birth status rights” to children (The Nayars and the Definition of Marriage. Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland 89:23-34). Gough’s definition of marriage was convoluted—notable, in her own words, for its “inevitably clumsy phraseology”—since it covered monogamy, polygyny, polyandry and same-sex marriage. But most important, its core feature—conferring of birth status rights on children—does not hold up cross-culturally.

It is true that virtually every society in the world has an institution that is very tempting to label as “marriage,” but these institutions simply do not share common characteristics. Marriage in most societies establishes the legitimacy or status rights of children, but this is not the case, for example, among the Navajo where children born to a woman, married or not, become full legitimate members of her matriclan and suffer no disadvantages. “Marriage” around the world most often involves heterosexual unions, but there are important exceptions to this. There are cases of legitimate same-sex marriages as, for example, woman-woman marriage among the Nuer and some other African groups. Here, a barren woman divorces her husband, takes another woman as her wife, and arranges for a surrogate to impregnate this woman. Any children from this arrangement become members of the barren woman’s natal patrilineage and refer to the barren woman as their father. Among some Native American groups, males who preferred to live as women (berdache) adopted the names and clothing of women and often became wives of other men.

Marriage usually involves sexual relationships between spouses. Yet this was not true of Nuer woman-woman marriages and we find in European history cases of “celibate marriages” among early Christians. Often spouses are co-resident but very often this is not the case. A separate residence of husbands in “men’s houses,” away from their wives and children, has been common in many places. Among the polyandrous/polygynous Nayar of India, wives and husbands remained in their own natal groups with husbands periodically “visiting” their wives and with children raised by their mothers and mothers’ brothers. Indeed the only feature of marriages that is apparently universal is that they will create affinal (in-law) relationships, or alliances, a fact that Lévi-Strauss and others considered to lie behind the origin of human marriage. But even here, affinal relationships are themselves quite varied in their nature and importance across societies. Thus, in terms of child legitimacy, sex of spouses, sexual activity, residence and so on, what we see around the world in terms of marriage is most notable for its variation.

Variation and Change
Anthropologists have accounted for this variation in a number of ways, looking to economic, ecological, demographic and historical processes. For example, polyandry, especially in Himalayan regions, is now well understood as in part related to the benefits of low population growth in areas of scarce environmental resources (Nancy Levine, The Dynamics of Polyandry, 1981). On a broader scale, Jack Goody has contributed to our understanding of marriage variations by drawing comparisons between Eurasian monogamy (with dowry) and sub Saharan African polygyny (with bridewealth). His work, published in Production and Reproduction (1976), has shown important connections that marriage forms have with agricultural practices, the development (or lack of development) of socioeconomic classes, marriage payments and patterns of property inheritance throughout the history of Africa and Eurasia.

Anthropological studies of kinship and marriage can also provide an understanding that within any society, marriage and the family will change over time. Whereas in the US legal marriages have been traditionally monogamous unions between a woman and a man, the nature of marriage, the domestic economy, husband-wife relationships, parent-child relationships, family structure and household structure have seen considerable transformation since the 1700s (Stephanie Coontz, The Social Origins of Private Life, 1988). Relevant transformations of marriage and the family have been in particular occurring in the US since the 1960s. Here we have seen rising rates of divorce, resulting in greater numbers of single-parent households. A rise in remarriage following divorce has additionally brought about the growth of so-called blended families, consisting of various combinations of step-parents, step-children and step-siblings. Many US children today are raised in two separate households, where one or both may consist of a previous parent and a newer set of step-relations.

The development of New Reproductive Technologies (such as, surrogate motherhood, in-vitro fertilization, frozen embryos) meanwhile has conceptually fragmented motherhood. We can today distinguish a birth mother from a genetic mother from a legal mother; all three “mothers” may be one, two or even three separate women. By contrast, fatherhood, once considered “uncertain” compared with motherhood, can now be made certain, one way or another, through DNA testing.

From Biology to Choice
Perhaps the most profound change of all, and one undoubtedly linked with the above transformations of kinship and the family, is a perceptible change in the cultural construction of kinship in the US. An earlier emphasis on kinship as based on biological connection (what David Schneider termed “shared biogenetic substance” in American Kinship, 1980), is giving way to a new conception of kinship as a relation based on personal choice and commitment (Linda Stone, Introduction, Contemporary Directions in Kinship, Kinship and Family, 2004). The US is in many respects culturally embracing a wider variety of family forms and an expanded construction of kinship through choice and self-definition as much as through biology.

It is within these new dimensions of family variation and choice as a basis of kinship that, I think, we can best view the movement for legalization of same-sex marriage. From an anthropological perspective that focuses on the whole of humanity, what same-sex couples seeking legal marriage in the US are trying to do is not to redefine marriage. They are seeking legal recognition in the US for doing what people around the world have always done, that is to construct marriage for themselves.

Linda S Stone
Washington State U

http://www.aaanet.org/press/an/0405if-comm4.htm
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. This may be the basic problem with these haters
Since nobody can define what marriage is, these poor misguided souls attempt to define what they believe it isn't. The Bible told them so.

I'd like to know what Reverend Hutcherson and all the others must be feeding their congregations along with those cracker bits and grape juice they pass around, after the collection plate, on communion day.

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mindfulNJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thousands?
I was there today. My husband and I just happened to pick this weekend to be tourists...the fundie fair didn't even fill up one section of the mall. There were just enough of them to ruin my trip to the Museum of Natural History, though. I wonder what they think when they see those billion year old fossils?
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opiate69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Fossils?
They think they were put there by Gawd, to test our faith.. seriously... or, they subscribe to Kent Hovind's assertion that they really aren't millions of years old, and that the bible refers to dinosaurs walking the earth alongside man...
http://www.geocities.com/kenthovind/
What I want to know is, when is the psychiatric commnity going to start recognizing this religiosity for the mental illness it is??
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. VERBATIM, that is what I was told by a fundie
That fossils were put in the Earth by God to test the unbelievers.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. More like 'hundreds' - the media sure likes to SPIN the numbers!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Hundreds
of freaks, looks like--is that woman in some kind of a "rapture"? Weird.
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T Bone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Trust me
she had a few orgasms before the day was over. Going to those things is how she gets them, not through sex. Don't believe me ? Go to a travelling tent 'revival' meeting sometime. Watch some of the women. You will come back and tell me I was right.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. God must despise these small-minded, hate-filled people
As though heterosexual marriage is sacred! ESPECIALLY among Fundies...highest divorce rate of any religious group and atheists
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mindfulNJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. the men probably get jealous of God...
Just take a look at the photo in post 8...The men must feel inadequate after seeing what God can do for their women.;-)
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The empressof all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Biblical traditional Marriage?
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 11:25 PM by Wubette
What the heck is that. Certainly not love matches that we have today in this country. More often than not women were disposed of like chattel and had no property rights or rights to their children. If these idiots want to live like that fine. I won't stop them. Just leave the rest of us who want to live in the 21st Century alone. We just don't want to hear it anymore.

BTW: My husband and I are Atheists and we'll be married 20 years next April. And Oh My God.....We are raising an Atheist child who is not only talented and well behaved but is a straight A student to boot.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
28. Your Wife, Your Brother's Wife, And A Wench?
With all three being regarded as chattel.

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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't even know what to say about these hate-filled
lying bigots. I keep getting reminded of the line from the film, "Hannah and Her Sisters", when Max von Sydow says, "If Jesus came back today and saw all the horrible things that people are doing in his name, he'd never stop throwing up."
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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. We used to have Love in's now we have Hate in's
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Hate-filled lying bigots....that's right.
They feel powerless ... and, I think, want to beat down others.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. "children being raised up" What kind of grammer is that?
And I like the fact they get to inlate their own numbers as park officials will no longer give crowd estimates. But such good Christian folks wouldn't lie ,would they?
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
13. Too absurd ...
If this were a rally IN SUPPORT OF gay marriage, the present mouthpiece for our country's Executive Branch, e.g., The Washington Post Newspaper, would number the crowd in the "hundreds" instead of "thousands."

Gosh, the right turn that the recent past WORLD respected Washington Post has taken is depressing beyond description. :P
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leQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. it's not just the WaPo.... havent you seen the turn of the nytimes?
and even latimes has started being careful about how 'liberal' they appear.

imho, about the only 'liberal'ness left in cable news is crossfire, and that's only a 50% share. if there's any other anchors out there that tell the truth (ala jon stewart), i haven't noticed. and i watch cablenews almost 24/7.

what bothers me most is what will happen when john wins? will we see a barrage of allegations that should be made? or will the BFEE escape all responsibility for what they've done?
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
17. Like Jacob and his 2 wives and 2 concubines?
That kind of marriage?
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ChrisK Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. Could they waste there time doing less with more
You would think of all the troubles facing this country they would be out in force working to help the needy or homeless or the elderly or asking why there are not enough flu shots for all Americans and how it happened or when the soldiers are coming home or anything BUT this drivel.

These people are EXACTLY what the current administration is looking for...folks willing to ignore the real issues at hand and focus on the trivial because they go through life with there eyes closed, too scared to see whats really happening around them.

They talk about marriage like its a "one size fits all" lifestyle...do they think if they some how get others to "focus on the family" all the worlds ills will just go away?....I'm sure all persons unemployed are worrying about this and not how there going to pay the bills or feed there families or go see a doctor, yea thats just what there worried about, right...maybe if more of these folks were made unemployed or lacked any real health care you would see less and less of them at rallies, remember god helps those that help themselves and if your that narrow-minded to stand at a rally about same-sex marriage and not looking for a job to feed yourself or your loved ones you get what your deserve.

For people asking others to "focus" on something that they see as so critical its odd how "blurred" they like to keep the real issuses...sad at the same time that for all the steps we as a people take there is and always will be those trying to take us back, very sad
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:33 AM
Response to Original message
19. And does he mean MARY CHENEY???
Aside from them all wanting to make Mary Cheney a 2nd class citizen in her own country;

Quote:

"Children are not being raised up as they should be"

He means "NOT STRAIGHT". Assholes, all of the homophobic ignorant morons.
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dddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Funny...
All of the gay people ( NO exceptions)I know were raised by heterosexual, married people. Hmmm
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. If our government's official position on marriage is
"one man, one woman", who's going to tell our guy Allawi that his lifestyle (three wives, so far) is an abomination?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. If you want to "save" marriage, ban divorce
Banning divorce would be a boom to criminal law practitioners for it will lead to an explosion of homicides as frustrated men and women follow the biblical dictum of "'till death do us part" by murdering their spouses.

Neither of the 2-major parties speak to the right of gays and lesbians to enjoy the same rights and privileges as heteros, including same sex marriage. The "civil unions" that is being proposed by the Democrats is a sham, a 21st century version of the "separate but equal" doctrine that was used to segregate people of color.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thousands of fundies, all massed together...
Would this be a good place for me to paraphrase Ann Coulter and suggest where a Ryder truck oughta have been parked?

didn't think so. never mind.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
29. Are they handing out pink triangles for people to wear yet?
I suspect it won't be much longer and the yellow star of David will again get some usage.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. Jesus never said homosexuality was wrong, you ignorant fools.
Man, I know I'm busy breaking up all those marriages and whatnot, but even I - AN ATHEIST - know Jesus never condemned homosexuality. Period.

These "Christians" should try reading the bible they purport to believe.

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