Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Bush campaign voices worry about military vote

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 10:53 PM
Original message
Bush campaign voices worry about military vote
President Bush’s campaign legal counsel said Friday litigation threatens to prevent overseas service members from receiving their absentee ballots in time for them to be filled out, sent home, and counted.

If this were to happen, it would undercut the president’s advantage among military voters and affect the election in key toss-up states such as Colorado and Florida.

Campaign counsel Tom Josefiak cited Democratic lawsuits to knock independent candidate Ralph Nader off the ballot in several states, including Maine, Nevada, New Hampshire, Florida, Colorado, Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Wisconsin, all of which are hotly contested.

Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman accused the Democrats of pursuing “a litigation strategy” which could “prevent state and local election officials from printing and mailing ballots overseas, threatening to prevent our service men and women overseas, as well as other Americans abroad, from casting a vote that is actually counted.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6256473/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. I have to ask..do you know why the miliary people are so pro repug?
Does it have to do with the boot camp training? Like some sort of brainwashing goes on?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. No, it is a self selected group of macho guys.
Macho means no brain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It baffles me.
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 11:20 PM by kikiek
I met a woman working for very low wages. She told me about how she had to put her kids on MN Care (state health insurance for very low income). Her hubby is covered by V.A. Her work doesn't cover anything. She plans on voting for Bush. I had a long talk with her. I explained a lot of things. It came down to her daddy having been a marine. Unreal. It is so frustrating. Oh and her husband will probably be shipped out again in jan 2005.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Lots of Marines are voting for
Kerry! And Especially after bush led the military into a deceptive war..Many Are waking the fuck up and smelling the blood.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. that was not enlisted men, AND still 20% more dem than before. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I don't believe the polls...
especially if they're taken by repukes..

And I know a lot of military people who are voting for Kerry..the one who actually went to war!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. can't you tell by the issue here: this time, many more voting dem. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SeekingTruth Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Here's some of why many in the military trend repug....
I was in the army and have insight into the thinking of those in the military. While many bitch (there is an old military saying that the time one worries about troops is when they stop bitching) about being in the military, many see being in the military as a noble cause. They may disagree with many things, but to reject the military culture would be to reject themselves and their fellow soldiers.

Now this plays into their being pro-republican because face it, whether accurate or not, there is a well-honed republican message that states republicans take better care of the military than democrats. And it doesn't have a thing to do with truth whatsoever. It is a myth that the repugs take better care of the rank and file military people, while the fact is that the repugs do take better care of the military-industrial complex than the dems do. Also, military members are very partial to the commander in chief, especially when a republican.

In the movie Black Hawk Down, there is a great scene that tells a person all that is needed to know about soldiers. One soldier is talking to another and he tells him that when he goes back home, friends ask him why he does the things he does. The soldier says that he has quit explaining it because non-military people just don't understand what it is about putting your life in the hands of another - and that all it is about is simply the soldier next to you and not failing that soldier.

The majority of soldiers are not robots, brainwashed or blood lusting murderers. They are wonderful people who take great pride in succeeding at their mission and helping their fellow soliders.

It's that simple.

Hope this helps.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Yes it helps. My dad was a vet but never a republican. Very liberal.
He was WWII stationed in New Guinea. Whole different mindset though. Rarely talked about it though. He was in his 40's when I was born. Probably didn't want to talk about it anymore by the time I came along.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. I think a lot of the "pro republican" idea of the military
comes from the Eisenhower era ideal, where an "honest to gawd hero general" was president during a fairly peaceful boom time with a strong VA system that took care of those in and those retiring from the military and guard as well as the perceived disservice done to the military in regards to staying in Vietnam and the rise of the peace/anti-war movement during the Johnson administration.

The sudden change of attitude in society towards military members from the rather old fashioned, idealized life of the honored hometown hero who marches with the VFW in local parades to the poor grunt who didn't know what he was doing or what hell he'd be facing from one day to the next, under fire in an operation that he was beginning to realize as having little value other than the political was traumatic, to say the least. Most vets, myself included, who deal with combat have a certain emotional insecurity that comes from being a bringer of death and destruction, no matter how "remote", to another person and to other civilizations. Most of us understand on some level that it could be us, it could be our families, our cities, our country that is undergoing what we are doing to others when we go to war. We pray to whatever it is that holds us together that what we are doing is for a reason, that we are participating in the killing of our comrades and those "others" for something that will actually help our families, our communities, our country, something that will be an improvement to society in general.

To be told that we are becoming casualties, as well as killing and destroying lives by the thousands for a lie, for the political gain of a few, is devastating to most of us - and we all handle that devastation in our own ways.

The easiest is denial, the "other" is what is causing us emotional discomfort, and many soldiers find themselves looking back at the times where they felt the military was honored no matter what they were doing at the time - and that leaves most of us post WWII military with the lip service propaganda of the Reagan and Eisenhower eras. Where no matter what we did, we lived with the certain common social knowledge that John Wayne, Rambo, "Maverick" and all those other lone wolf military heroes did their duties and saved the country, no matter the question as to whether or not the ends justified the means. The enemy was always the bad guy, the evildoers who deserved to die - even if it's a 12 year old boy with a recently procured RPG, who's entire family was killed in the last bombing run and ends up on the other side of your sights that day. He's with the enemy, so he's been corrupted and has no more right to live than the hardened terrorist who taught him how to handle his weapon.
That the moral advantage is in the winning; the "sacrifice for the good of the country" is always right, and any society that supported such a view, no matter how false it really was, is seen by many as "supportive". There is always a validity for any action done, and never any responsibility - if one is following orders and doing one's duty, it's always right. War to a neo-conservative tends to be a big team game - rah, rah, rah...us against the world. Bring it on, baby!

The recent liberal democratic eras - Johnson, Carter, Clinton - allowed for society to question authority, for moral conundrums and flawed "heroes" who would have to live with the reality of their actions - and could actually lose and end up destroying their own lives and families through a misguided choice rather than destroying "the enemy". Many people can't handle that - especially if they had sweated, bled, and watched others die for misguided reasons. So in their minds, the liberals, who don't have such a narrow "good/bad" definition to justify us to do to "those others" what we would normally think of as being bad or even evil actions were they done to ourselves or our loved ones don't support the military when liberals require the military to take responsibility for it's activities and respect those on the other side of the sights. War to a liberal is the act of last resort, like executing rather than rehabilitating a first-time petty criminal should be a last resort. And that's a bit hard for some people to understand.

It's not easy to kill if you are forced to think of yourself and your enemy as human beings. So for many who face the possibility of having to kill, it's easier on the "brain" to go with those who reward you if you turn off your critical thinking and just go with the hive mind - no matter if it makes it easier to be killed in battle in the long run because of blindly following orders - than to follow with the mindset of those who would respect the enemy and take responsibility for choices - even if that respect may save the lives of you and the brothers and sisters in arms by considering strategy based in reality rather than in ideology.

So to many military people - Republican = "rah, rah - Just Do It 'cause we're proud to be an Amurican, where we're told we're the only ones free" while - Democrat = "Why are we doing this again? How can we make this better? Maybe we should think about what we're doing before we do it? What's the strategy, and how can we minimize damage?"

See - too many questions means you just don't support the troops in the field, don'tcha know?

Of course, once they've been under some sort of fire, the majority of the aware folks start asking those questions, just like the Democrats. The folks who've been under some sort of fire that will still try everything to forget or deny that they were ever afraid are the only ones that cling to the comfortable neo-Con Republican mantras like a religion.

Just my rather long-winded, late night after a long, hard work day two bits worth of scattered thoughts on the matter.

Just for the record, I'm seeing far more Kerry/Edwards and "Psycho Bush" type bumper stickers on the very large, very conservative military base I'm currently working at than I see any of the Bush/Cheney, "Vets for Bush" or "W-04" stickers - by about 3 to 2. And of the Shrub supporters, I see 4 to 1 of those tiny, subtle "W" stickers to actual Bush/Cheney, so I'm not even sure how strong the "W" support is that these people aren't putting up the big B/C ones.

And almost every pro-Kerry/anti-Shrub sticker is accompanied by some sort of "Support our Troops" sticker. Unlike most of the "W" stickers

Haele
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Ah, Haele...
You have my nomination for one of the BEST. POSTS. EVER. :loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. thank god for our legions of lawyers. I continue to contribute to
the Kerry/Edwards General Election Legal and Accounting Compliance Fund (GELAC) so that our side can prevail in post-election legal battles.

https://contribute.johnkerry.com/gelac.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Doesn't do any good to have legions of lawyers if...
they are as incompetent as David Boies or the rest of the attorneys that represented Gore.

They may be top of the line attorneys in their practice but they need to know ELECTION LAW. And they need to explain and support their reasoning and not rely on the judge knowing or accepting it. It has to be in the record so that a judge can't refute the facts or the law.

In addition, they must do what is right and make sure the public understands it. ie Recount should be all counties in the state and a REAL recount.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rev_Karl Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. somebody watch this
because last time, due to complaints from the right, all military absentee ballots were counted without inspection. Many ballots of dubious origin were counted. Rove would have the government hand out truckloads of blank ballots to the officers to make it 'fair for our troops' It all depends on who holds the ballot and within the military unfortunately, that's a shaky thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Hi Rev_Karl!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Let me say something...
I believe that if it were just an issue of them receiving their ballots in time then Bush/Cheney would use every method possible to get them there. This probably has much more to do with the dissatisfaction many of the military, on the ground, are feeling. Bush/Cheney are probably afraid that the military vote could actually hurt them rather than help them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kat 333 Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. No doubt ...
This is a good article regarding just that.

"We shouldn't be here," said one Marine infantryman bluntly. "There was no reason for invading this country in the first place. We just came here and and killed a lot of innocent people," said the marine, who has seen regular combat in Ramadi. "I don't enjoy killing women and children, it's not my thing."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0921/p02s02-usmi.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. May have something to do with them wanting
to keep Nader on the ballot. They could get the ballots overseas in time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cyr330 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. Tough Shit
They weren't too concerned when thousands of minority voters were disenfranchised in Florida in 2000. Fuck them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. A True Oddity
My 2 cents says that since most of the volunteer military is the lower income class and less educated, that they wish to find self-esteem and do so by joining the military and thereby aligning themselves with power by association with gung ho far right wingers who support Bush and consider them heroes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. For that group it has to be something along those lines. I don't think
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 11:23 PM by kikiek
they're in the other group who thinks irrationally that they are on the verge of being rich.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SeekingTruth Donating Member (370 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Unfair stereotypical answer....
I answered some of this in an above post. Your reply is off the mark quite a bit. When I was in the army, I went around and asked fellow soldiers what they signed up for - the most common answers were for a job and money for education.

Yes, there are some strange birds in the military, but those are truly the few and far between. Most are very decent, working class people trying to find a way to improve their lives and provide for their families.

Sadly, the Rambo-type stereotype only provides further confusion toward the wonderful people in the military. Besides, it is not their fault that their leaders have been lying to them for the last three plus years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quaoar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is total bullshit
The Bush campaign is worried that the military will turn on them and they actually want them to be disenfranchised. They just want to be able to blame it on Democrats.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
3113 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I agree totally
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. they are worried Nader will be off the ballot
that could really hurt them. They already know where they stand with military.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. Program on Free Speech TV
called "Honor Betrayed". It is a scathing indictment of this war featuring retired generals, former department of defense officials, soldiers still deployed and others that have returned home.

It should make any person with a loved one in the military seethe with rage. But one of the most striking things I heard from the soldiers are how many of them do not plan to vote. Most were in Iraq and said they are more worried about day to day situations, just trying to stay alive. I cannot imagine what pressure they are under to shut up and follow orders.

But others that had come home spoke frankly about their anger at this admin. and said they planned to be very involved in the democratic campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. More bullshit propoganda to make Dems look bad
I can bet you a thousand bucks that every militay absentee ballot will be counted no matter when they are ready- the deadlines be damned.
Look how they bent over backwards for the Florida 2000 ballots.
:eyes:
Too bad for the pugs Kerry is pulling a big part of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. This is a scam
I think they just want to scare soldiers into having to cast their votes through the Pentagon, where they have to release their rights to private ballots. I think they know that soldiers who may want to cast their votes for Kerry may think twice if they know that their ballots won't be secret.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
29. If they are concerned about their ballot arriving in time and they...
haven't received their ballot yet they should use the Federal Ballot.

That only allows them to vote for federal candidates and they just have to write the names for the office.


Q: On Independence Day, I completed my federal post card application (FPCA) and mailed it to my local election official. Now the election is fast approaching, time is running out for returning a ballot, but I still do not have my ballot. I am on a ship in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and I am concerned that if the ballot does not arrive very soon I will not be able to get my marked ballot back to my hometown by Election Day. Help!

A: This is exactly the situation for which the Federal Write-in Absentee Ballot (FWAB) was designed. That ballot is provided for in Title 42, United States Code, section 1973ff-2 (42 U.S.C. 1973ff-2). This has been the law since 1986, but this special federal fallback ballot has not been well known within the military, until this year.

You should obtain an FWAB from your ship’s voting assistance officer (VAO). Mr. Charles Abell, the deputy assistant secretary of defense for Personnel & Readiness, has stated on several occasions that FWABs and FPCAs will be prepositioned in more than adequate numbers on all ships and at all overseas commands this year. If your ship does not have FWABs on board, send an e-mail today to Ms. Polli Brunelli, the director of DoD’s Federal Voting Assistance Program (FVAP). Her e-mail is brunellip@fvap.ncr.gov.

The FWAB is not limited to your state, and it is not limited to this year. The ballot is limited to federal offices—president, senators, and representatives. (It is possible that there is no Senate race in your home state this year.) You mark the ballot by writing in the names of your favored candidates for those three offices. If you do not know the name of the candidate for whom you wish to vote for the Senate or House of Representatives, you can vote for "Republican nominee" or "Democratic nominee."

After you mark the ballot, mail it to the same local election official to whom you already mailed your FPCA. See your ship’s VAO to obtain the FWAB—he or she will also show you the 2004 edition of the Voting Assistance Guide, biennially published by DoD as the basic reference for military voters and VAOs. The Guide is also available on the FVAP Web site, www.fvap.gov.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
31. This seems like a pre-fab excuse
Here's a line we may hear after 11/2:

"The Democrats, through their lawyers, disenfranchised our troops!"

They are desperate and pathetic. They just thought of this now, 17 days before the election? Bullsh#t!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC