Halloween on Sunday causes stir across South

[JohnLocke]

Halloween on Sunday causes stir across South
By Kristen Wyatt -- The Associated Press
Saturday, October 16, 2004
----
NEWNAN, Ga. - With Halloween falling on a Sunday this year, some trick-or-treaters - especially those in devils' masks and other unholy garb - may be scared away by upset neighbors scolding kids for ringing doorbells and seeking candy on the Christian Sabbath.
Town councils and mayors across the country are fielding calls from parents wondering when to send out their little goblins for trick-or-treating because of concerns about the timing of the holiday.
Some towns decree that Halloween be celebrated on Saturday to avoid complaints from some religious residents who might be offended by having children in ghoulish costumes knocking on their doors on Sunday. Others insist the holiday should be celebrated on its traditional date, regardless of whether it's a holy day for many.
It's an especially sensitive issue for authorities in the Deep South's Bible Belt, where many believe witch and devil costumes have no place on a Sunday.
In Newnan, a suburb south of Atlanta, the city council agreed last week to tell people that trick-or-treating will be done on Sunday. In 1999, the last time Oct. 31 fell on a Sunday, the city officially moved up trick-or-treating to Saturday, which brought howls of protest.
"We don't need to confuse people with this," Councilman George Alexander said.
The city's latest decision is going over like a rotten pumpkin with some folks.
"You just don't do it on Sunday," said Sandra Hulsey of Greenville, Ga. "That's Christ's day. You go to church on Sunday, you don't go out and celebrate the devil. That'll confuse a child."
(...)
It's a similar story across the country. In Vestavia Hills, Ala., a suburb of Birmingham, a furor erupts every time Halloween falls on Sunday. Local officials have finally decided to avoid taking a stand on the matter.
"About 15 years ago, we decided to have Halloween on Saturday instead. People went crazy. We said, 'Never again,'" recalled Starr Burbic, longtime secretary to the mayor. "It messed everybody up to move Halloween. Some people don't like having it on a Sunday, but we just couldn't find a way to make everyone happy."
----
Read the rest here.
----
Information about Vestavia Hills, Alabama:
As of the census2 of 2000, there are 24,476 people, 9,841 households, and 6,878 families residing in the city. The population density is 645.9/km² (1,672.7/mi²). There are 10,523 housing units at an average density of 277.7/km² (719.1/mi²). The racial makeup of the city is 94.46% White, 1.85% Black or African American, 0.11% Native American, 2.47% Asian, 0.10% Pacific Islander, 0.35% from other races, and 0.67% from two or more races. 1.36% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race.

There are 9,841 households out of which 34.2% have children under the age of 18 living with them, 61.1% are married couples living together, 7.2% have a female householder with no husband present, and 30.1% are non-families. 26.6% of all households are made up of individuals and 13.1% have someone living alone who is 65 years of age or older. The average household size is 2.48 and the average family size is 3.03.

In the city the population is spread out with 25.8% under the age of 18, 6.0% from 18 to 24, 25.9% from 25 to 44, 26.1% from 45 to 64, and 16.2% who are 65 years of age or older. The median age is 41 years. For every 100 females there are 88.6 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there are 83.3 males.

The median income for a household in the city is $70,623, and the median income for a family is $89,746. Males have a median income of $72,837 versus $37,083 for females. The per capita income for the city is $40,392. 3.1% of the population and 2.2% of families are below the poverty line. Out of the total people living in poverty, 1.6% are under the age of 18 and 4.5% are 65 or older.
----
:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[stepnw1f]

1. Paranoid Schizos

[The Zanti Regent]

57. The truth is this--If Jesus came back...

...these trailer trash twits would be the ones dragging him back to the cross, and Pat Robertson would be pounding the nails while Falwell sits his fat ass on Jesus' chest!

[stepnw1f]

69. Make Me Mad As Hell How People Could Be So Fooled

Goddam Lemmings dragging this Democracy into the Dark Ages!

[donheld]

90. Maybe this will cheer you up

Mother Goose and Grim

[bluestateguy]

2. But the real question is, how do we get such voters to vote Democratic?

How do we get conservative white fundamentalist Christians to vote Democratic?

[Southpaw Bookworm]

3. Advocate violence

Against infidels and anyone whose skin tone is the slightest shade of beige?

[delete_bush]

39. Well, we could insist that schools reject the

teaching of evolution and instead support creationism. We could push for constitutional amendments to abolish abortion and gay marriage. While we're at it, might as well get to the core of the problem, outlaw Halloween and establish Christianity as the national religion. Maybe we could get Pat Robertson to run as a Dem for President. I'm sure he'd switch parties if he knew he could win.

[Walt Starr]

47. The same way you get the Taliban to vote Democratic

YOU DON'T!!!

These people are EVIL!!! Right them off to the evil party.

[Sterling]

59. We don't

Why would we. They offend 75% of the rest of the population with their witch hunting insanity. In order to "get" these people we would have to sell out everything we believe in. No thanks.

The correct strategy is to do to them what the RWers have done to the word liberal. Work to disvcredit thm at every turn. It's not like they don't do most of the work for you anyway.
Playing their game is a waste of time. I hope you were not serious about appealing to them.

[Khephra]

4. There are too many things I want to say, so I'll just be blunt

Fuck Fundies.

[George_S]

25. How many decades before they figure this out?

Or is it a new problem?

[smirkymonkey]

5. These people must live very dull lives indeed.

What a bunch of pointless morons!

[TankLV]

24. The words "pointy headed morons" comes to mind quicker.

Got any white sheets?!

(scorn directed at the pointy headed morons, not you)

[smirkymonkey]

62. Oh, yeah - that's what I meant!

:)

[enki23]

6. the ones who believe it's "celebrating the devil"...

will believe that on saturday as well. their ignorant outrage might be a little stronger for feeling their holy day is being assailed, but they're still ignorant on saturday, and still outraged. it seems clear they won't be participating in any case, so there's not much reason to change the day for their benefit.

i hate humans. evolution should have quit while it was ahead.

[Sin]

8. All Saints Day

Why doesn't some one just tell them to pray even more on there made up holy day just after Halloween.
Ya know since they couldn't stop people from celebrating that evil pagan holiday. I don't see them complaining much about that other holiday that they put on top of another pagan celebration. O what is that one now yea thats right Christmas. I still shake my head and wonder sometimes about these people.

[DBoon]

15. Easter is a pagan holiday too

the name even comes from an old pagan holiday

[mulethree]

78. Valentines is my favorite.

Feb 14th/15th was the festival of the Roman god and goddess of love. The young men would chose a paper with a young woman's name at random from a box and the random pairs would spend the festival together and be paired for the year. Quite an erotic holiday.

Easter comes from the spring festival - the spring Equinox and many mother/fertility goddesses who had names Eostre, Eastre, Ostare and similar.

Also - The Phrygian fertility goddess had a consort Atta who was born of the virgin goddess Nana and was sacrificed on Friday March 25, for the salvation of mankind, by being crucified on a tree; he rose from the dead 3 days later. After that he died every fall and rose every spring.

Like Dionysus, Osiris, Mithra, Jesus and other savior gods, Atta's followers ate his flesh in the form of bread, many of these gods were born on Dec. 25th. Osiris was the 'king of kings' and the 'good shepard' he was killed and resurrected and lives in the underworld where he judges the dead and decides who goes to the good place and who to the bad. Osiris and Mithra both had their births witnessed by Shepard's and announced by wise men who brought gifts. Mithra traveled around with 12 pals working miracles, curing people and exorcising devils; he ascended to heaven at the spring equinox after celebrating a last supper with his 12 pals. The stories of these guys pre-date Jesus by 200 - 4000 years. I suspect that more than the holiday name and date was borrowed from ancient rites, legends and gods.

Of course Sunday is also an odd one. Sabbath was the 7th day - Saturday, until some pope changed it to Sunday. The protestants reject that popes have authority to do such things, but they mostly still observe the sabbath on Sunday.

[Eye and Monkey]

83. a St. Vitus Day Dance Party can be alotta fun

St. Vitus, patron saint of epilectics, dancers, mimes, and fools.

[hyphenate]

28. Don't forget that

to the Jews, Saturday is the Sabbath, not Sunday. So yet another non-Christian group gets the shaft instead.

[H3Dakota]

46. The devil is a Christian invention...

That's the hysterically funny part of this one. Christianity made up the devil, yet accuse pagans & witches of worshiping/celebrating "him". Pagans worshiping the devil is as ludicrous as saying that pagans worship Bugs Bunny.

[ilovenicepeople]

70. Whats next?

They will be telling the military that they can't kill on sunday?:shrug:

[nosmokes]

7. ofcol

i guess el dias de los muerte ain't gonna be real real popular, huh?

[burrowowl]

11. My birthday

Nov. 2 is really celebrated well in Mexico.
I hope Bu$h gets creamed.

[illuminaughty]

41. My mother is going to be 82 on the third

We definitely will celebrate early in case the revolution has to start on the third.

[Bluebear]

9. Let's see what Chick and "Ms. Henn" have to say!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1053/1053_01.asp

[illuminaughty]

42. That made me decide to worship Satan

Love that penguin!

[calimary]

10. Can we just split off from these people?

Dear GOD I am sick of the STOOOPidity of the South!

Could we just separate from them as a country and let them break off into their own little Confederacy like they've always wanted? AND LEAVE THE REST OF US RATIONAL PEOPLE ALONE?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

They could finally draw up their own twisted little theocracy with their own Taliban and everything. That roy moore Neanderthal could be their chief justice. They have their designated flag, already, with the stars and bars they refuse to stop clinging to. They could even adjust it a little so it was just black and white, to reflect the rigid, narrow, simplistic way they see the world. Hell, jerry falwell could be their anointed leader. Or they could have bush if they wanted. They could run their little fiefdom straight into the ground, and the rest of us would not be affected or hurt. And the world could focus its revulsion on THEM, and the rest of US could begin to focus on healing and renewal of strong ties and fully functioning connections. If they didn't want the Kyoto accords, FINE! That would leave the way clear for the rest of us to go ahead and sign onto it. Let them Bible-thump themselves into a frenzy, around the clock.

My deepest respects and apologies to DUers from there. I know not all Southerners are knuckle-draggers, but JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ!!!!!!

[TroglodyteScholar]

12. I don't care for fundamentalists either, but...

...your apology is pretty hollow. Attitudes like yours are probably a big factor in why southerners think the elitists are the Dems when it's really the other way around.

[Bridget Burke]

17. So share with us--what perfect area of the country do you claim?

Your profile lacks information.

There are far more Kerry signs in my neighborhood that Bush signs. And this is Houston, Texas.

But perhaps we should all move to your city. Which one is that?

[QC]

37. Your apology is about as genuine as Bush's sincerity.

And you have about as much worthwhile to say as Bush, too.

[kayell]

92. Regionalist bigotry: always a way to charm votes out of Southerners

No, your "apology" doesn't cut it after such a diatribe.

As though there aren't religious maniacs everywhere in this country. Yes, even in your idyllic paradise.

[IndianaGreen]

13. These are the same morons that watch football and NASCAR on Sundays

There is a relationship between the number of churches in a community and low intelligence. The more churches, the lower the IQ.

[antiSpinZone]

26. What does NASCAR and Football have to do with low IQ?

Is there something about NASCAR and Football that makes those that enjoy it somewhat lesser persons or more undesirable citizens?

Are you a fan of NASCAR and Football too?

[Retired AF Dem]

43. There are churches all over Huntsville AL

Huntsville also has one of the highest education rates in the United States.

[TroglodyteScholar]

65. Not disputing your point, but...

...do you care to provide numbers that back you up? That'd be interesting....

[Pithy Cherub]

14. hypocrisy reigns supreme

with fundies! So hair ribbons and bows at Sunday school and the freaky vampire bush costume from 4 to 6. They do understand that Dios De Muertes won't stop either...

[LizW]

16. Arrgh, it seems like we just did this

Really, it doesn't seem like it was that long ago that Halloween fell on Sunday and we went through this.

I live in the next city over from Vestavia Hills, and this is a big mess in my city, too. It's really worse than this story says. The big mega churches don't like children celebrating Halloween at all, much less on Sunday. They have carnivals and activities to try to keep the kids from doing traditional Halloween things. At one church, there's even a rule against "scary" constumes. The kids have to dress as princesses, cowboys and stuff. When my son went to preschool at the Baptist church, we had to find paper plates and napkins for their school party that were "Autumn" designs -- no ghosts or skeletons! LOL!

Fortunately, our neighborhood has plenty of people who ignore that stuff. Last time we had our candy and Jack-o-lanterns ready on Saturday just in case, but no one came on Saturday.

[jwirr]

22. I live in a small town in the north

and there is a simple way to handle this. Those who want the children to stop at their home turn on their porch light - the others leave theirs off. It is simple, we respect each others rights. I suspect that those legalist who are preaching to the children are getting their kicks out of what they call "doing God's will" and would put their lights on just to lure the children in.

[hatrack]

31. Indeed - could it have been a mere seven years ago?

Of all the problems in the world, the fact that Halloween is (inevitably) going to fall on a Sunday one year out of seven is suddenly the hottest, most controversial and vital issue going serves to remind us of the profoundly deep shallowness and ignorance that define the lives of millions of Americans.

Pathetic.

[LiberalFighter]

71. It wasn't suppose to fall on Sunday this year...

gw* signed an executive order to abolish Halloween.


or did he sign an executive order to have Halloween always on Sunday?

[quaoar]

44. You must live in Hoover

Can't possibly be Mtn. Brook. You have to be Republican to live there. LOL

[LizW]

55. Yep.

No way would I fit in over in Mountain Brook. Of course, I hardly fit in in Hoover. Although there are more Kerry Edwards yard signs in my neighborhood than I would have expected! :)

[TroglodyteScholar]

66. Hoover

I used to live in Riverchase -- didn't fit in, myself. I think that's the Mountain Brook of Hoover, though. Any idea how Hoover's massive Hispanic population is leaning?

[LizW]

68. Hard to say

The Hispanic community is very isolated from the rest of the population here. The language barrier is a problem, and housing discrimination is becoming an issue. We actually had a guy run for mayor on the platform of promising to bulldoze the apartment complexes where the immigrants live. :eyes:

No, of course he didn't win, but the guy who did isn't much better on the issue of immigrants. :(

[quaoar]

76. Actually

Greystone would be the Mountain Brook of Hoover, except Greystone is new money and Mtn. Brook is old money.

[TroglodyteScholar]

91. Wouldn't have guessed there would be

so many Bhamers on here. You guys take care of the place -- it's become nearly unrecognizeable since I left in 1998 :(

[CBHagman]

102. We went through this in the '60s

When I was living in New Jersey in the 1960s, we had a lot of trick-or-treating on Saturday the 30th. Some cranky adults would say, "It's not Halloween" when we approached their doors. I think the end result was that some kids trick-or-treated on Saturday, some on Sunday. I don't think the Christian angle had much to do with it, frankly, but it's a long time ago. I think individual towns decided what they wanted to do and followed that.

By the way, the town I lived in had a Catholic church, a Methodist church and a Baptist church. That was it.

[msongs]

18. was it ok to lynch black people on the sabbath in the ....south?? n/t

[smirkymonkey]

63. Good point.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was considered a sacrament at one point in time.

[VLC98]

19. Delaware is not in the South as far as I know.

Here in central Delaware, Halloween will be on Saturday. I haven't seen religion mentioned as the reason, but they haven't offered an alternate reason. It seems they felt it went without saying. I think it's bullshit and that Christians should just opt out if they don't like it being on a Sunday. It's a shame because I'm starting to dislike religious people and I've always been a very tolerant person.

[Merlin]

51. Those of us in Sussex County would disagree.

Go five miles inland and check out the accent and attitudes of any random farmer and it's Alabama.

'Course so is Central PA, though without the accent.

And Ohio, from Columbus south to Cincinnatti, is deep South.

The South seems to be rising again!

[LiberalFighter]

72. THEY should have Christmas ALWAYS on Sunday

Shouldn't have such a sacred holiday on a day that isn't holy.

I'm sure they could figure out a way to make that happen... they did it with Easter and it isn't held on the same month every year.

[CelticWinter]

20. Samhain aka Halloween

The one thing my mother always gets upset with me about besides being a life long dem, is my open mind to others beliefs and customs. She would rather ppl live in fear from day to day than look at the picture as a whole. So many republicans suffer from the same affliction, its called 'tunnel vision'. They would love to live in the times of the Christian Crusades, wiping out cultures of which they know nothing about.....ooo wait isnt that what they are doing now, amazing how history repeats itself.



Samhain
The sabbat called Samhain ( Sow-in , Sah-vin, Sahm-hayne ) has many meanings. Among these, it marks the end of the third and final harvest, it is the day to commune with and remember the dead, and it is a celebration of the eternal cycle of reincarnation.
There are two possible sources for the origin of the Samhain sabbat's name . One is from the Aryan god of Death Samana and the other is from the Irish Gaelic word " samhraidhreadh ", which literally means " the summer's end ". Samhain marked the end of summer and the beginning of winter for the Celts, with the day after Samhain being the official date of the Celtic New Year. The reason the Celts chose this point in time as their New Year rather than Yule, when the rest of the Celtic pagans celebrate it , was because the sun was at it's lowest point on the horizon as measured by the ancient standing stones of Britain and Ireland.

In the European traditions , Samhain is the night when the old God dies, and the Crone Goddess mourns him deeply for the next six weeks. The popular image of her as the old Halloween hag menacingly stirring her cauldron comes from the celtic belief that all dead souls return to her cauldron oflife, death, and rebirth to await reincarnation.

Unfortunately the Crone Goddess has been an object of fear and revulsion in modern societies, and this was definitley not the way our pagan ancestors viewed her. The Crone was always revered as a woman of power whose vast stores of wisdom came with her great age and the life- long practice of her many skills . She was both the destroyer and the healer , the grandmother and the eternal womb of rebirth. Her cauldron is deeply a part of the Samhain mythos representing the great cosmic womb in which all things are concieved, grow, and are born.

Samhain is popularly known today as Halloween, a contraction of the words " Hallowed Evening ", and it retains much of the original form and meaning it had long ago in the Celtic lands, despite the efforts of the church to turn it into an observance of feasting and prayers for their vast pantheon of saints. The Church began calling it " Michealmas", the feast day of St. Micheal, but the old Samhain holiday proved to be too potent a drawing card for one lone saint to combat. So it was renamed The Eve Of All Saints or All Hallows Eve, which precedes All Saints Day, and is still one of the holiest days in Catholicism.

But even with all of this effort , so much Samhain lore and practice remained within the popular culture that the Church was finally forced to diabolize Samhain into a night boiling with evil spirits. According to the church these baneful creatures were dispelled only when the morning broke on All Saints Day to the ringing of the church bells. When the church diabolized paganism and it's dieties, they began a successful campaign of fear among Christians concerning Samhain. Unfortunately , the idea of Samhain beinga night of unleashed evil took hold in the collective mind, and now all manner of mayhem and violence occurs around Samhain, though these terrors have absolutely nothing to do with the original meaning of the pagan holiday.Instead these horrors are the creation of modern humanity's all too vivid imagination.

The pagan Samhain is not, and never was, associated with evil or negativity. It has always been a time to reaffirm our belief in the oneness of all spirits , and in our firm resolution that physical death is not the final act of existence. Though death is very much a part of Samhain's symbolism, this sabbat also celebrates the triumph of life over death...

From: SABBATS : By...Edain McCoy

[H3Dakota]

49. Well done, Celtic!

My father has lots of respect for my beliefs, so I have no grief from him. However, my sister (who adored Halloween before) has married a repub fundie. She won't even acknowledge Halloween now. Their church is adament that Halloween is all about worshipping the devil.

Thx for posting the info! :)

[LiberalFighter]

74. Then there must be lots of heathens tramping in the night there.

How about all of the Halloween candy being sold? You could have the candy out and let her have some and then say it is for Halloween tricksters when she eats it. Or if it is after tell her that was from Halloween night. Just make sure that the candy is what is usually sold for that purpose.

[H3Dakota]

82. LOL... oh, she still buys the candy corn, etc...

That's what is so funny - it's ok to buy the Halloween candy & eat it!!

's ok - a few weeks ago they came over to my place for a visit - he wore his repub t-shirt just to get to us (my Dad's just as liberal as me!)... so I returned the favor last weekend when we went for a visit & proudly wore my black & orange Halloween outfit. LOL

[rugger]

108. Uhh..Christians invented Satan, and perverted pagan holidays

I suppose it makes them feel self righteous.

So if we are going to eliminate Halloween, we should do away with most of the other holiday traditions we have for Easter and Christmas.

Hey fundy assholes...did you ever notice that Easter is named after a pagan Goddess?

These people are the most ignorant pricks on the planet, like our version of the Taliban.

Please secede from the US again you fucking morons.

[Aunt Anti-bush]

21. Good God Almighty!!!

Don't we have more important things to worry about than trick or treaters coming to get candy on a Sunday? I've heard it all.

This brought to mind the scene in Adam Sandler's movie, "Big Daddy" where he takes the little boy trick or treating and the guy tries to ignore the kid so Adam breaks in and forces him to give the kid all kinds of stuff. That was so cute.

Really, if people are freaking out about kids coming out halloweening on a Sunday, they really need to get a hobby or something.

[Zero Division]

23. Ah the memories of Halloween in the Bible Belt: getting treats like....

Jimmy Swaggart pamphlets in your candy bag and being lectured for celebrating "the devil's holiday". I lived in Louisiana for a while when I was a kid and that's exactly what happened to me one year. I wouldn't be surprised if it's gotten worse. And that's a whole lot scarier than any Halloween costume.

[Blue Gardener]

45. If anyone would have handed that crap out around here

When I was a kid, their house would have been toilet papered for a week. Plus smashed pumpkins in their yard. If the kids didn't get candy, they weren't happy.

[hyphenate]

27. I can't believe this shit

Are we still in the dark ages, or what? For crying out loud, we're talking about little children here! These people are so damned spooked from their own shadows to even allow the kids the night out, regardless of HOW they're dressed.

It's also a sacred day to a lot of people NOT in the Christian faith. I don't think it's right to take that very important day away from them, just because they don't like it.

There's a HUGE difference between what Halloween represents to mainstream people--it's a kid's day out, regardless of its origin--and what it represents to pagans and wiccans. And these stupid assed people STILL can't tell the difference between paganism, Wicca and Satanism, which is a CHRISTIAN construct, and is NOT the same thing as paganism or Wicca, regardless of what ANYONE says. Madre dios!

It pisses me off to see such continued intolerance and complete ignorance among so many of the religious right wingnuts in this country.

[Kimber Scott]

29. I lived in a town that decided to change Halloween because it was on a

school night. Didn't go over very well. Lot's of people were pissed, but I got to trick or treat twice! LOL!

[Kimber Scott]

30. One more thing... Why would holy rollers want to celebrate a pagan

holiday no matter what day of the week it fell on?

[madmom]

32. the devil is a christian creation...

just because one celebrates halloween doesn't mean they are celebrating the devil.

[VegasWolf]

33. These same fundies wanted to burn Harry Potter books - as we

all know, only God can do magic!

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[Still_Notafraid]

34. I

don't see how dressing up like a monster makes you evil,i used to throw those pamphlets that i got from the fundies in there bushes when i got them.

maybe its a selfish thing they resent the fact that they cant trick or treat anymore so they take it out on the kids.

my solution would just be put a sign on there door and don't turn on there porch light.

[2Design]

35. Isn't this a pagan holiday that the christians hijacked while trying

to suppress pagans

[VegasWolf]

36. Yes. n/t

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[madmom]

38. yes, along with christmas and easter. n/t

[Piperay]

40. Geeesh, it's not like it doesn't

happen every seven years as regular as clockwork, that's the way the calendar works. :wtf: Some people have way too much time on their hands, I wish that was the biggest concern in my life. :argh:

[warrior1]

50. BOO

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/curly.johnson/halloween.htm









If you go to the site, turn your volume up.

[quaoar]

48. Excuse me, but I live in the town being trashed on this thread

I have grudgingly come to tolerate a certain level of ignorance about the South. Some people who have rarely or never been down here seem to think that our children walk to school barefoot down dirt roads and we all live in either shacks or double-wides -- chickens in the yard optional. Oh, and we don't have indoor plumbing either.

But I never thought I would see my own town trashed as the land of fundamentalism and stupidity.

Vestavia Hills is one of the wealthier suburbs of Birmingham. It has one of the highest property tax rates in the state as well as one of the best school systems. It recently annexed an area with lower-priced homes and a lot of development issues, an area that other towns refused to take in because it would cost money to do so.

And what about the schools here?

Vestavia Hills is proud of the accomplishments of its students. The high school’s math and debate teams have been consistently ranked in the top schools nationally. The VHHS Math Team has placed first in national competition 11 of the last 13 years. The VHHS Debate Team has won 7 national championships and was the first school in history to win national championships in both policy and Lincoln Douglas debate. The high school athletic teams have won 48 State Titles and the baseball team has won one national championship. The system has several schools that are recognized as National Blue Ribbon Schools of Excellence. Redbook, The Wall Street Journal, Fifty Fabulous Places to Raise Your Family, and others, have recognized it for the quality of education services.


http://www.vestaviahills.net/City_Departments/C_Schools.html

Not bad for a bunch of knuckle-draggers in a sea of double-wides.

And then there is Halloween.

Sure, there are folks here who do not celebrate Halloween. One of my staff members is a Mennonite who won't let her kids go trick or treating. Many churches host alternative events on Halloween night. But it is hardly an atmosphere of hostility.

In my own large and very Republican neighborhood, Halloween is one of the biggest events of the year. We have had more than 200 kids come to our house every year. There have been so many kids on the streets they put up barricades to keep traffic out. Parents from other towns have started to bring their kids here, too. Residents on cul de sacs put up tables in the street and have block parties.

And we did all this in 1999, too. On a Sunday. Imagine that.

[underpants]

54. Exactly-this sounds like a few PTA power players at work

You know the type-don't have anything to do so they expand their influence through the PTA or the church when no one asked them to. There is a huge lack of understanding of what the South was and is here.

As a former co-worker (from Pa.) once said to me "I love the South all my kids work down there".

[QC]

58. Yeah, but why let mere facts interefere with a good hate-on?

It is an unfortunate truth that many self-defined "progressives" define themselves more by what they hate--The Great Unwashed--than by what they love. Such people claim to be politically enlightened but actually, in their heart of hearts, are about as radical as the Charleston Junior League, and all it takes to bring that out is the mention of one of their favored objects of contempt: rural people, religious people, blue-collar workers, Southerners, etc. Then they reveal themselves to be the Heathers of politics.

That attitude is no mere annoyance, because it feeds the perception of liberals as elitists and thus does the Right's work for them. Who needs Karl Rove when you've got the Heathers?

[Carson]

81. As a proud Southerner, I applaud your eloquent (and accurate)statement.

:yourock:

[Pithlet]

84. Yes

Much better to keep our mouths shut and NEVER criticize anything that anyone does if they affiliate themselves with Christianity or the South. Apparently you can't criticize anyone in the south, or proclaims themselves Christian, without bashing the whole group. It's not possible. So, we shouldn't say anything at all. There's nothing wrong with any religion wielding their power to affect a whole community, as long as it is in the South, eh? And as long as they're Christian.

Please. This stuff happens all over the country, and it gets called on every time. Fundamentalists and towns located in the South do not get a free pass.

[QC]

85. Here's an idea...

Have you ever considered responding to what people actually post? I know it's not as much fun as setting up straw men and then knocking them down and congratulating yourself for your great courage in fighting the forces of evil, but it does make for a more intelligent discussion.

I never said that anyone should get a free pass. What I object to is how anything like this that happens anywhere in the South inspires a whole slew of "we should have let them secede" posts like the one below, wholesale attacks on everyone and everything between Virginia and Texas, and all the rest of the usual bullshit. It's as predictable as the setting of the sun in the west and it has a lot to do with why so many people think that the words "liberal" and "elitist" are synonyns.

Apparently you can't criticize anyone in the south, or proclaims themselves Christian, without bashing the whole group. It's not possible.

Yes, that is precisely my complaint. Many people here seem incapable of making distinctions between people and places, so they end up "bashing the whole group." As a result, instead of a useful discussion of something like how to respond to a "religion wielding their power to affect a whole community," we just get repeat #587 of an old, tired flame war.

[Pithlet]

87. Many people also seem to be incapable

of telling the difference between criticism and outright bashing. We can't even discuss it without someone pouting that their religion is being bashed, or their region is being bashed. For crying out loud, what these people did in this town deserves ridicule. For every one time that someone actually did bash unfairly and rightly got called on it, there are 5 where someone was making a criticism of an individual or a group, and they get accused of Christian or Southern Bashing.

You know what? All atheists do not believe that Christians are dumb. And not all Northerners believe that Southerners are hicks. And northerners can and should be able discuss problems in the South without being labeled a South basher. How long did it take for someone indignant about it being their town to show up in this thread. Well, it happened in their town! How long does it take whenever Christian fundamentalists are being criticized for a particular act before "Christian bashing at DU!!!!!!!!" posts pop up. It is getting ridiculous. The types of Halloween silliness have happened in other parts of the country, and they HAVE been discussed here on DU. But, people who want to feel wounded only remember and see the ones they want to be outraged about.

Think about it. Can you imagine if every time we discussed racism, people started hollering "white bashing!" "I'm white, and I'm not like that!"? It's hard to imagine that, isn't it? Why can't we discuss these issues without accusations being hurled? When someone ACTUALLY DOES bash the south, they absolutely deserve to be called on it. But knee jerk reactions against all discussion and criticism is going too far.

[QC]

95. If you're not one of the mindless bashers,

then my post was not directed at you. That's simple enough.

Goodness knows there's plenty to criticize, and I do a lot of it myself, since I live in a place that sometimes makes Utah look like Berkeley. But I am also aware that one should not judge a group of people by its very worst members and one should not stereotype.

[Pithlet]

110. Not quite

You don't seem to be understanding my point. My point is that discussion can't take place here without "I'm being persecuted", particularly those accusations that are unfounded. I'm tired of being made to feel like some bigot because I dare to speak out about these issues. Then I get the post from you, the first one of mine that you replied to. Your post WAS directed at me. Instead of trying to understand what I was saying, I get more "No one should stereotype". Well, duh! I never said otherwise.

[TexasLady]

52. my daughter's school sent home flyers

in thier take home folders this past Friday inviting the school kids to come to a fall festival at a nearby church. I drive by the church and sure enough, there was a big sign about the festival. At the bottom of the flyer, it said 'no scary costumes or masks."

My five yr old will be a scary witch, and will not be going to this farce festival. Folks are free to frolic all they want at church that day. I am going door to door with my kids.

Besides, Sabbath is a Saturday, but you could get shot saying that around here.

[robbedvoter]

53. Sunday: for Christians only. The rest of ya - get your own calendar/week

days - you can't do anything in our B/C-Post/C time but kneel and convert.

[Milspec]

56. This is "Latest Breaking News"?

I might as well post about the typical first rain of the season is doing the to LA traffic!

:kick:

[JohnLocke]

60. Kick

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

61. Ignorant hick Xtians...NOW THAT'S SCARY.

I know this will probably start a firestorm, but being from the South (born in Memphis, TN area and resided in Baton Rouge, LA and Durham, NC) I can unequivocally say that this article is a dead-on characterization of the superstitous, dumbass, backward-minded, bigoted, religious nutball shit that is pervasive in the South.

Of course, this majority of bigoted, racist, religous dumbasses in the South insures that practically all the states below the Mason Dixon Line are "red states".

JB

[lakeguy]

64. BOO!

[Behind the Aegis]

67. Another fun fact

Several DU'ers have pointed out that witches do NOT worship the devil, which is very true. But how about this? Not ALL Xtians have their sabbath on Sunday?! Scandal! Yes, it is true, the Seventh Day Adventists' sabbath is..gasp...SATURDAY! I know this because I used to cover duty for someone of that faith and now, I have a boyfriend who is one! He also doesn't care that I am a witch and knows the only devil I love is my mom! :)

It is a shame that these idiots not only besmirch the names of Xtians, but also Southerners. My entire family is from the South and we are quite well-educated. Of course, my family are Jews in the deep South...always a fun time!

Have a happy Halloween! Remember those who have passed over and listen for them, you just might hear them that night! ;)

Brightest Blessings!

[StupidFOX]

73. Damn those little children!

Trying to have good wholesome fun and get a bit of candy :crazy:

[FlemingsGhost]

75. More and more, I think they should've just let them secede.

Maybe it's not too late.

(on edit: typo)

[QC]

86. Yes, it would have been well worth leaving slavery in place

to prevent you from having to deal with people you find annoying.

:eyes:

[FlemingsGhost]

88. If you think the Civil War was about freeing slaves ...

you probably think Operation Enduring Freedom is about liberating Iraqis.

And if you think there's no more "slavery" in the U.S., go to spend some time with one of the millions of working poor families. Or maybe a maximum security prison, if you need to put a "colored" face to the story ...

[QC]

94. So the war had nothing to do with slavery?

Sure, whatever. It was really all about "states rights," I guess.

As for the working poor, I was one of them for years and now make my living teaching students who are mostly the working poor, and I still live paycheck to paycheck, so you might want to save the accusations of clueless affluence for someone else.

[Bridget Burke]

96. I've heard the "states rights" argument many times....

Living here in Texas. The main "right" the Confederacy wanted to preserve was the right for some humans to be property. And, no matter what economic inequalities have survived--they are not exactly equivalent to slavery.

They aren't making Yankees like General Sherman anymore.

[bleedingheart]

77. I can't imagine having nothing better to worry about than this.

[Catherine Vincent]

79. I really wish the US would make it a law for the kids to trick or treat

on the last Saturday in October, regardless of what day when October 31st lands. That way if it's either on a Sunday or a weekday, (besides Friday) it wouldn't be a school night. They should also make it a law for the trick or treaters to do this during the day and not at night, say like from 2:00pm to 6:00pm.

[Bridget Burke]

93. It's not a legal holiday.

So the US government should stay out of it. Despite its ancient pagan origins, "Halloween" is short for "All Hallows' Eve". It's the evening before All Saints's Day, a Roman Catholic holy day. Yet another reason for our more Puritanical neighbors to opt out.

Let each community deal with the holiday as it wishes.

[Carson]

80. I'd rather have Halloween on Saturday than Sunday...

(I posted this to the other "Southerners/Halloween" thread, so this'll be a repeat)

..simply for the reason that I attend church services on Sunday evening at 6pm. Were it left on Sunday, my son's trick-or-treating activities would be cut down considerably. My town (yes, I'm in the South) has always moved Halloween when it falls on a Sunday and never have I heard the reason to be "It's the Devil's Holiday!". It has always been for convenience.

It's the same reason no sports (school or summer league) are played on Wednesday or Sunday evenings. This would force people to choose between church services and recreational stuff.

In a community where most folks are church-goers, it works out well.

(On edit: Of course, don't let the facts interfere with the superiority complex at work here on this thread.)

[nolabels]

98. To be honest I hate holidays and special days of the week

But they give people something to do that might otherwise be unemployed



Knott's Scary Farm's Halloween Haunt Expands to Record Proportions

Three Brand New Walk-Through Mazes Debut at Knott's Halloween Extravaganza

Bigger, badder and scarier than ever! Knott's Scary Farm's Halloween Haunt, the ghoulish granddaddy of Halloween celebrations, screams back with an unprecedented 25 nights of monsters and mayhem, plus a record 12 blood-chilling walk-and ride-through mazes and attractions guaranteed to leave a lasting impression on all who dare to enter. This year's park-wide scare festival opens October 1 and continues a 25-night run on selected nights through November 1.

For the family crowd, Knott's presents its 11th Annual Camp Spooky, an alternative daytime non-scare celebration of Halloween cheer rather than fear. This special, family-friendly event, complete with trick or treating for kids ages 3-11, is offered weekends only throughout October, and is included with regular park admission.

The world's first and most popular theme park Halloween event, "The Haunt" returns to reign in 2003 with six shows, including "The Hanging - Curse of the Black Pearl Necklace" and the return of Ed Alonzo starring in "Ghouls Gone Wild II." In addition, five scare zones will make it virtually impossible for guests to find refuge from Knott's 1,000+ professionally made-up and costumed monsters roaming the Park in search of victims.

Like walking into a 160-acre horror movie, Halloween Haunt completely surrounds guests with the ultimate in adult scare experiences. Lights are turned down low, fog is pumped through the streets, and elaborately themed walk-and ride-through attractions and six full stage production shows are presented at locations throughout the park.
(snip)
http://www.welcomemagazine.com/pages/articles/03_10_knotts_scary_farm.htm

Out here in So Cal you can experience that Halloween Shtick two or three weeks out of the year with the amusement parks various Whoop-de-doos. I went to this one a couple of years ago. It was very good even though it the place sold out to capacity (does most of time). Even standing in line for the rides is not boring because there are things going on all around most of the time.

[xxqqqzme]

89. so why not have the little tricksters

dress up a Mary 'n Joseph! They could push a stroller w/ their loot from the night.

[0007]

97. If your house was haunted you'd cancel Halloween also

junior will not be found at the White House.

[kslib]

99. Ummm...

So it's okay to dress up like the devil on any other day? I'm not a christian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they supposed to be living for God every day of the week? If they disagree with dressing up like the devil or a witch, then it shouldn't matter what day it's on, their kids shouldn't dress like that on Saturday either, and they should leave the porchlight off. It's all or nothing! (IMHO)

[Bridget Burke]

104. If they're that holy, they should avoid Halloween altogether.

It's based on a Roman Catholic holiday that was based on a pagan holiday. And many of our modern celebrations include a touch of humor; certain blue-noses may well be offended.


However, greed gets in the way. If there's free candy out there, why can't their little darlings get their share?

[kslib]

105. My point exactly!

:yourock:

[dancing kali]

100. I'll support this one if

they change the date of Christmas to some day other than Dec. 25. I consider Halloween to be my big "religious" holiday... if theirs are sacred... so are mine!

I'll go quietly back to my coffee now.

[davidinalameda]

101. mouth breathers

"You just don't do it on Sunday," said Sandra Hulsey of Greenville, Ga. "That's Christ's day. You go to church on Sunday, you don't go out and celebrate the devil. That'll confuse a child."

Jesus--save us from your followers!

[Aiptasia]

103. and yet...

Nobody complains that All Saint's Day (November 1st) is falling on a Monday this year...

God forbid.

People need to learn to relax.

[samtob]

106. Historically, this state is the same way

I have lived here for 14 years, when Halloween OR the 4th of July land on a Sunday it is the same thing.

They either switch it to Saturday, or for the 4th of July, this year it was celebrated (public) on Monday.

But it get's even better, they passed a law here a couple of years ago that cars cannot be sold on Sunday (dealerships)

[Strawman]

107. We need to get Dio elected governor of Alabama

Get a million people to move down there before the next election in some sort of temporary camp, register to vote and stick them with Ronnie James Dio as governor, then leave.

[VegasWolf]

109. And fundies don't understand why they have a bad name!! n/t