NYT: From Troops, a Few Votes for a Quick Way Home

[kskiska]

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Specialist Zac Bullock leaned against a dust-caked wall in the shade of the abandoned Iraqi school that had become his temporary home, talking politics.

"Some of the guys don't talk about the election much," said Specialist Bullock, 20, a medic from Redding, Calif., who had just treated a gash two inches deep in an infantryman's foot. "But most of us discuss it. And for the most part, the big question is, which of those two guys is going to get us out of here sooner?"

(snip)

Despite the risks, United States combatants in Iraq are largely supportive of Mr. Bush, if interviews with about 40 soldiers stationed in Baghdad and in several provincial towns to the north are anything near representative. But in the discussions, in heavily fortified bases in Baquba, Balad and Tikrit, and in the midst of a three-day battle for control of Samarra, there was also widespread pessimism about the war, and about how long American troops will be needed here, though it was mixed with a deep desire that the war be seen as noble and justified.

This reporter, once embedded with United States forces, was given unrestricted access to the troops, who were free to speak without supervision. Yet some soldiers said they felt uncomfortable expressing criticism of their commander in chief or expressing a preference for Senator John Kerry, Mr. Bush's Democratic challenger, particularly because the military is, and has been for decades, predominantly Republican. Others said they believed that Mr. Kerry would fare better among the troops than a Democrat normally might, a reflection of the growing sense among soldiers that there is no end in sight to the conflict here.

more…
http://nytimes.com/2004/10/21/politics/campaign/21soldiers.html?hp&ex=1098331200&en=3ff4245284097c81&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Libby2]

1. This makes me so fucking mad

I could spit!!

Why? Why are they republiscum??
If it were up to the scum they would have nothing !!
Dammit this makes me sick.
I do understand the reluctance to speak out, but speak with your vote dammit!!

[Dogmudgeon]

3. Sixty years of unending Republican indoctrination

That's what does it.

If you're an Officer and a Democrat, well, you're likely to be a Retired Officer and a Democrat within one or two (prospective) promotion cycles.

--bkl

[Leilani]

4. Read the whole article

The feelings are mixed, & a lot of them can t talk about it.

John Kerry will get more military votes than any Dem has in years & years.

Also, it says 17% of the military is Dem....if more Dems went into the military, then Dems would get more votes.

It will take a Dem Prez who is good for the troops to turn things around. The military has been this way for decades; it cannot change overnight.

[SoCalDem]

8. "All-volunteer" military...that's why..

When there was a draft, all kinds of young people got caught up in it.
Now that it's "all volunteer", think about the trypical people who gravitate towards military life (I know it will sound stereotypical, but it's true).

People who like the idea of killing without having to "pay for it"...
People who like "the outdoors"...camping out...hiking... etc..
People who did "not so well" in high school, and whose families cannot afford college
People who cannot support their young families on $10 an hour jobs
Single parents...
People who might have gone into the police force if they could have passed the test...
People who like the idea of "kicking some ass" (usually of people less fortunate than they are)


What kind of people , in general, fit this bill??

In "draft days", lots of middle class guys got drafted, from all kinds of families.. there were artistic ones, musical ones,ath;etic ones, non-athletic ones,all races..and except for the super-rish..well-connected ones, most middle class kids were drafted..

I would venture a guess that the liberal types who enter the military, do it for the "educational benefits" and the fact that they cannot find a better job in their community/.

There's no denying that lots of the current crop are "adventure junkies"..gun lovers..and hyper-patriots..

That sub-lot pretty much defines republican god/gun loving republican..

my .02

[saigon68]

9. Outstanding analysis

From my experience there are a lot of Psychopaths, Bums and Bullies in the military.

There are a lot of Thugs too.

People who want to torture and kill and who for the most part (sorry Lynndie) get away with it.


A lot of Police Wannabees and future Police Terrorists like the guys who kicked the shit out of Rodney (Why can't we get along) King.

The Bush criminals love these people. If they win they will love to kick some Liberal Ass at a Peace rally. I saw these Criminals and Hoodlums in action in the early 70s at peace rallies, they are despicable.

[partisan to truth]

11. The before and after of a soldier is striking

I know more than a couple people who have left for military training(mainly marines) and have come back as completely different people- to the extent of (for example) threatening to kick a stranger's a** in a bar when he overheard him talking about his preference for kerry. People are very susceptible to socialization- and the military is very adept at 'breaking down' and building one's psyche back up to their liking.

[Arianrhod]

13. Soldiers like those

are violating their oath of enlistment.

[partisan to truth]

22. I think there are a lot of them violating that oath then...

My friend's boyfriend is in the marines (in North Carolina, heading to Falluja in February), and I spoke to her about it today- she confirmed that he and his fellow marines instigate fights regularly, predominantly over merely observing someone who is pro-Kerry.

Funny ending to the story in my first post- the Kerry kid shrunk away and the person he was arguing with piped up "I'm votin' for Nader!" "I don't like either of them!" My Marine friend conceded that was okay as long as the Nader fan was just 'against the system in general'.

[Arianrhod]

23. Wow, what an enlightening statement.

The Marine is okay with overturning the system, eh?

[partisan to truth]

24. ironic to say the least...

wish I could let him off the hook for being drunk when he said that :)

[12ss1kp]

12. What?SoCalDem

Being military myself I find your assumptions very distatsteful and disrespectful to those who serve. By what you wrote I'm assuming you have never served nor known anybody who HAS served honorably?

[SoCalDem]

17. My father was career Airforce.. (And if you'll notice, I didn't say ALL)

He was in for 27 years.. My grandfather fought in WWI..Two uncles in WWII....

I merely pointed out that the volunteer military DOES appeal to "that type of person"..as it probably always did to some degree...it's just that without a draft to "temper" the forces with a balance, it's not hard to see why the rank and file are said to be "republican-types"..

[Arianrhod]

14. When I was a young sergeant

during the Persian Gulf War, my NCOIC told me--with a very satisfied smile on his face--that we were government mercenaries, free to kill for money. He liked that idea very much.

It horrified me. . . .

[12ss1kp]

15. True

Technically speaking a paid soldier is a merc, just gov't funded. It's not a conscript army any more.

[Arianrhod]

19. A friend and I were discussing this subject just a week ago.

We concluded that there is a very fine line between a "mercenary" and a "soldier". We decided, though, for our purposes, to designate a "soldier" as one who is fighting for something he believes in. That would, of course, leave out a good number of our current military members, as many of them are in the service for reasons other than patriotism. That doesn't make them bad people per se; it just means that they fit our definition of "merc" more closely than that of "soldier".

In a real sense, then, a volunteer army is made up mostly of mercenaries.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. " no end in sight to the conflict here"

Mission accomplished! Does chimp have enough time for another stroll across the flight deck before they kick his stupid ass out of the wh??

[olddad56]

5. How dumb are our troops?

are they going to vote for the person who got them there, or the one who can get them back here?

[Gyre]

6. Anyone who's ever been enlisted

wouldn't need to ask that question.

Gyre

[antonialee839]

10. My son will vote for Kerry

that's because he was brought up right.

[w4rma]

7. Get Rush Limbough's Repug propaganda off of Armed Forces radio! (nt)

[Arianrhod]

16. And The O'Reilly Factor, too.

Al Franken's program is nowhere to be found on military airwaves.

[sweetladybug]

18. I think there is nothing more than BRAINWASHING going on with

the average soldier in Iraq. They are ALLOWED TO HEAR ONLY WHAT THE REPUBLICANS IN CHARGE WANT THEM TO HEAR and that is O'Reilly, Limbaugh and Hannity. Any soldier voting for Bush are either dumber than hell or totally uninformed of the lies and deceit of the Bush Administration.

[Arianrhod]

20. Yes, this is true.

It's interesting, though, to note how many soldiers who serve a tour in Europe come back with a completely different view of * and what's going on in our country. Most of them want him out.

[BlondieK143]

21. A lot of it has to do with fear.

I've had the great fortune of getting to know many guys from a Marine Expeditionary Unit in the past 7 months. Once you sit down with them (most have already been to Iraq/Afghanistan once and are just about to deploy again), you learn a lot by their body language. I never brought politics up in our discussions, but it usually came to that. When I talked to each individual, I'd say 8 out of 10 of them continually looked behind them to make sure no one else was listening to their Pro-Kerry speeches.

They've been "molded" into the concept that your Commander in Chief is right no matter what. To Protect and Serve. Simple enough. Individual views aren't appreciated. So why is it so hard for us that have never served to realize this? Are we really expecting our military to stand up and say "John Kerry is a far better choice for President than our current one?" It's not realistic folks. They KNOW who got them into this war and come election day, I think we'll all be surprised at how many military personnel come our way. But don't be discouraged because they can't yell it from the barracks. Just my opinion.

[ElectroPrincess]

25. Give the young soldiers a break :-)

Young soldiers, like myself (25 years and younger) are completely indoctrinated into the military system. I was so proud to serve my country like my father before me. The blame should be laid flatly on the corporate media. If the troops *fully* understood that Bush has never earned anything in his life and his daddy saved him from the draft. IF they could fully understand that fact, they would vote for Kerry in a heartbeat.

When you're young, you think you're invincible despite most evidence to the contrary. Many young troops believe that they will come through their tour in Iraq unscathed.

Part of the problem, beyond the media hype, is that the innocence and ignorance of youth sometimes blinds many younger troops from fully understanding the facts.