Fan Killed In Red Sox Melee

[sr_pacifica]

Very, very tragic end for young, promising woman.


CBS/AP) A 21-year-old college student died Thursday of a head injury after a clash between police and a crowd of Red Sox fans who poured into the streets outside Fenway Park to celebrate their team's victory over the New York Yankees.

Victoria Snelgrove, a journalism major at Emerson College in Boston, was shot in the eye by a projectile fired by an officer on crowd-control duty. The nature of the projectile was not immediately identified but the weapons are meant to be non-lethal.

During a news conference carried live on local television stations, Boston Police Commissioner Kathleen O'Toole expressed the department's sympathies to Snelgrove's family and said the agency "accepts full responsibility for the death of Victoria Snelgrove.

"The Boston Police Department is devastated by this tragedy. This terrible event should never have happened," O'Toole said.

Snelgrove, of East Bridgewater, was among 16 people hurt in Boston's Kenmore Square neighborhood early Thursday morning, after thousands of fans spilled out onto the streets to celebrate the Red Sox winning the American League pennant. She died at Brigham and Women's Hospital later in the day.

"It appears from evidence we have reviewed thus far that Tori was killed when she was hit in the eye by a projectile fired as officers tried to control mobs outside the ballpark," O'Toole said. "Designated officers were equipped with less-lethal systems that use projectiles designed to break upon impact, dousing the target with (pepper-like) spray."

More
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/18/national/main649827.shtml

[chelsea0011]

1. Unfrigginbelievable! Police firing into a crowd celebrating

[indigobusiness]

2. Feel safer?

Fucking police-state is out of control.

[sr_pacifica]

3. That was exactly my thought reading this article. It's crazy. n/t

[nibbana]

99. PIGs

[-..__...]

11. "Celebrating"?

Hmmmmmm...







Granted, it's tragic that this girl died over something so stupid, but the actions of the revelers were inexcusable. What should the BPD have done in this situation? It was an accident by the BPD that someone was killed. Sometimes shit like that happens.

Last year another kid was killed in the same area after the Pats won the Super Bowl and the cops and the city caught shit because the cops didn't contain the situation enough.

Put enough drunken college assholes together at the wrong place at the wrong time and disaster will always follow.

[indigobusiness]

14. Sorry, but it is unacceptable for cops to shoot guns of any kind

in situations like this...in civilized countries.

Cops are overamped, over-equipped, and overready to "Waco".

[MnFats]

33. that is the problem with 'less lethal' weapons.

used to be called 'non-lethal' until people were killed by them.
there has to be very extensive training with that type of ammunition before a cop can be put on the street with it. And it should be used in very specific situations. Yeah, during a street melee....but one must also evaluate the potential danger to other bystanders and those in the background.
It will be interesting to hear the details of how this happened.
honorable, i guess, of the city to accept 'full responsibility.' but we'll see what that means when it comes to disciplining officers and shelling out money to her family.

[MnFats]

34. now that i think of it, i've had conversations with cops about this stuff.

....
"less lethal" rounds are to be used when there is a "threat," but not one of imminent potential loss of life. Such as a drunk with a knife....who's still 30 feet away. Or some joker with a baseball bat or nun-chuks. Even then the first shot is supposed to go to the thigh....you want the offender on the ground, you take his legs out from under him.

This will be a VERY interesting investigation.


reminds me of an Anti-Vietnam war protest I participated in. We were opposed by a bunch of country-bumpkin sheriff's deputies and state troopers with no sense of crowd control. They pulled out their tear-gas shells, the kind you either loft above a crowd or send skittering across the pavement to the crowd you want to move...and they took aim and fired them (from shotguns, these rounds were fired) right at people. I saw one bounce off a guy's head, knocking him cold, and another detonate just as it struck a girl's chest, causing third-degree burns...

[saigon68]

105. In DC in 1972- I saw a police riot

The demonstaors had gas masks, and were fighting back. 2 male cops crotch whipped a woman who had fallen they used night sticks, they were cursing her, they must have hit her at least 30 times. They then left her, after she was unconscious and went after a couple of guys.

At that point I believed that only a revolution would ever change the evils of capitalist amerika.

[WillyT]

19. Hmm... Interesting Pictures... Apparently, When It's Property vs. Life...

Property wins, every time.

Reminds me of the Neutron Bomb, ya know? Kills all the people, but leaves the buildings standing.

:nuke:

[saigon68]

20. Reminds me of this lot of Thugs

[Bluebear]

21. Black 1989 Jetta vs. 21 year old girl's life

What should the BPD have done in this situation? Not shoot into a crowd of idiots turning over a car. Arrest them and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. But don't shoot. Just my 2 cents.

[tlcandie]

22. Dunno what do they do in New Orleans for Mardi Gras in all

those drunken hellraising parties and parades, etc.? I don't think they use guns of any sort. Officers on horses like you see above and officers intermingled throughout with radios.

I have never seen snipers or full military police there or anyone with guns. If they can corral New Orleans Mardi Gras.. they can control these people WITHOUT guns or any sort or extreme measures.

[okieinpain]

74. I didn't know that they have riots during the mardi gras's.

interesting.

[Octafish]

27. Did the woman tip over a cop car? Did she have a gun?

Was she in with the wrong crowd?

What did she do wrong?

Why did she deserve to die?

[-..__...]

28. Interesting responses here.

And to think that in another board here, I've been accused of "cop bashing".

Let me simplify it...

I'm a poorly paid, public safety, union member, civil servant.

If I happened upon some gathering of inebriated asshats attempting to destroy/ruin/burn/overturn my sole method of transportation, I would be severely pissed.

As much as I would probably like to, I wouldn't kill them... maybe crease their skulls or give them an ass-tuning that they can tell their grandchildren about, but putting them in a pine box wouldn't be worth the legal hassles.

Did the cops over react? Is it part of their job to protect property? Was the situation getting out of hand?

Personally, I think the girls death was just one of those freakish things that happens.

[BiggJawn]

53. Oh, why didn't they just bring in bulldozers...

Scoop everybody up and press them against buildings. Works for the IDF...

You "poorly paid, public safety, union member, civil servants" get big boners fantasizing about handing out those "ass tunings", don't you?
"We'll have ORDER in this city, or we'll 'crease your skulls', you PERPS!"

I can't legally cut somebody in 2 with a 12-Gauge just because they're stealing my bicycle. Why is it OK to use deadly force on somebody turning a car over?

[tlcandie]

56. You know even thinking about this is horrifying, BUT

at least if those were placed in front of you instead of guns you would truly get the drift that you needed to move on or get mowed over.

I just don't like violence to deter violence. It is the same thing we are doing in Iraq and where does that get us?

[puddycat]

79. you're missing the point. It wasn't just "freakish".

The police didn't act properly.

[Logansquare]

101. The use of blunt impact munitions in the dark, and in a dense crowd

It's just idiotic. If you have enough light and know that you're aiming away from the head, it may be justified. They also could have used bean bags, which are less likely to damage or penetrate the eye, and are still effective in dispersing crowds.

[gatlingforme]

116. Hello D__S, I hope the police admin. does not use the "freakish"

accident as an excuse. Your point is well taken but I would question the officers qualifications in using this type of less lethal weaponry.

[AngryOldDem]

119. Can't defend property by use of deadly force

>>>Is it part of their job to protect property?>>

The protection of property is NEVER justification for use of deadly force. Any projectile deliberately fired into a crowd has the potential of being a deadly force.

Can't justify what happened under any circumstance.

[colonel odis]

49. those pics speak volumes about boston and its people.

[Mr E McSquare]

52. It happened the other night in Vermont too!

On the university of Vermont campus.
Same deal; broken street lamps, over turned and burning cars etc.

If this were my car I wouldnt give a fuck if the cops shot every one of them! Fuck em. I moved out of "Americas most livable city" because I was sick of these drunken dickheads roaming the streets, destroying property and waking the neighborhood. Everyone wants to make excuses for this bullshit behavior. If it was your car, or house, or how about your life you'd feel the same as I.

Last night at work I listened for the entire fucking night to this dickhead I work with talk about how theres certain bars you cant go to if you like certain sports teams and about all this bullshit violence that seems to accompany sports like fleas on a dog. Again fuck em! I thought sports were supposed to be fun or something. They keep telling us at the locol school how the football team is such an important fucking part of our town and does such goooooood stuff for our kids. Then I see these same kids on the weekly police docket for date rape, DWI, recieving stolen prop.,assault etc.Oh and dont forget steriods!(just say no kids)
Then to top it all off they have the balls to cut the art program from the local high school yet wont even think about laying off the sports teams. I'm sick of jocks. again I say FUCK EM!!!!

Oh and sorry about the girl. perhaps someone else will learn a lesson from this?? If you hang out with drunken fuck-face sports fans YOU COULD GET KILLED!!!

[Tiberius]

78. You're part of the problem my friend

"If this were my car I wouldnt give a fuck if the cops shot every one of them!"

Think about that statement. Really, really think about it.

[Forkboy]

83. "Oh and sorry about the girl."

WTF is the matter with you?

[fishwax]

89. How many people would you be willing to kill to protect your car?

:eyes:

Oh, wait, I mean :puke:

[smirkymonkey]

97. delete

[coalition_unwilling]

106. You are despicable. She was a 'journalism major'. Isn't it possible

she was covering the story as a journalist? Are you saying it's OK for police to kill journalists? If so, you should probably vote for Bush, since his military does the exact same thing in Iraq.

[Sterling]

59. Yankees suck, get over it.

And I'm a NYer.

[Tiberius]

76. Please explain

How these pics "speak volumes" about Boston and its people. You know, Boston is a sports-obsessed town, and also filled to the brim with college students. And besides, you do realize that way less than 1% of the crowd was involved in anything malicious at all, don't you?

So, from this Bostonian--- I say go f*ck yourself. You probably haven't ever even been here, so take your broad brush and shove it.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

104. Thank you. The poster's prejudice speaks volumes as well.

I can't believe how many NYers hate Boston. It's positively ReTAHDED.

[Rockholm]

110. Thank you Tiberius!

80,000 drunk college students who are NOT from Boston caused this. Obviously you are not familiar with Kenmore Sq. That many rowdy people needed controlling. Did you see our local news afterwards? I was pretty sick at what those punks did. They RUINED for the rest of us.
Boston is a city of winners. We are a sports obsessed city please leave those of us who were NOT there out of this.

[denidem]

82. BPD has taken full responsibility...

and remember that Boston is full of college students from all over the country and the world. The student who died was standing among some idiot who were throwing bottles at the mounted cops. The cops shouldn't have fired into the crowd. That's why the the BP Chief has taken full responsibility. Don't think that this is usual for Boston.

[Tigerlily]

84. No, it doesn't.

Out of a crowd of thousands, 20-30 people at the MOST became destructive. Let's not overgeneralize.

[HEyHEY]

93. It happened in Vancouver

And there's nothing wrong with our people. Half those people probably aren't even from Boston.

[nerrard]

96. Not all of these people are from Boston

With over 60 colleges in Boston alone, and all these drunken kids (many from other states just looking for an excuse to get drunk and party - Don't believe me, look at the UNH and Plymouth State incidents in New Hampshire. And look at all the drinking related deaths at MIT, BC, BU, etc over the years. They're not all from here, trust me.), don't think of generalizing Boston people into there. Yes, I'm sure that some of them are from there, but not all of them. Many people actually drove up from CT just to "celebrate."

It sickens me to know that people behave like this. Until you see the videos of people stating ON CAMERA "Yeah, we're burning cars here, this is how we do it!", and you see the pictures/videos of the asshats tossing burning cardboard, glass beer bottles, etc at cops, turning over cars, setting them on fire, throwing barrels through signs and windows, then don't say the BPD overreacted in this situation. They were in physical danger, and personally, I feel they didn't do enough. Break out the tear gas next time. This has a chance to affect more than just one person. There is no way that these people should be allowed to fight, burn, smash cars, businesses, etc without any recourse. If you were in that crowd and fearing for your life because it turned out the way it did, you'd be thanking them for trying to protect you.

I hope all of you do realize that the police wouldn't have to do anything like this if people actually behaved like human beings. But again, don't comment and call our police Nazis (see the picture above), etc, when they were in fact in danger. It's never the crowd's fault in your eyes, always the Cops. Unreal.

[maveric]

111. What the fuck is that supposed to mean.

People were celebrating and it got out of line. These same things have happened in NYC, LA, Detroit, DC, Vancouver, Portland and other major cities with sports teams.
What a stupid statement to denigrate the character of Bostonians. It happens pal!
BTW are you a Yankee fan?

[Bluebear]

118. Oh do tell. And are you including Sen. Kerry, being he is Bostonian?

What a stupid hit and run post.

[Sterling]

55. What should the BPD have done in this situation?

Not murdered a woman with their "non lethal" weapons.

I would settle for that.

[shanti]

66. the fans did this and more

when the lakers won their championships....but no one was killed! :grr:

[maveric]

112. They exhibited the same behavior in LA, the cops just didnt shoot

anyone there.

[puddycat]

77. you said "shit like that happens"!!! WTF??? It was inexcusable!

A young woman is dead because the police didn't conduct themselves properly and within reason. It didn't just "happen".

[HEyHEY]

91. Shitloads of them were probably not even from Boston

But New York College kids causing trouble. ;-)

Seriously though, yeah look at the pics and it is evidence enough, a bunch of punk-ass bastards looking for an excuse to wreck downtown and get free stuff

[jayfish]

103. Other Than The Rollover Attempt...

I don't see anything in those pictures that is out of hand. Your pictures also lack context. Were they taken before of after the police action started? Was that Volkswagen owned by the people who were trying to turn it over? Was it worth someones life? How much property damage is equal to the life of a human? If you accidentally killed a person in such a manner, would you expect to be severely punished? I'll bet none of the cops will be. Shit like that happens because people like you chalk it up to "shit happens".


Jay

EDITED FOR CONTENT

[DenverDem]

4. Thank busholini's militarization of the police for this murder.

Your Homeland "Security" dollars at work.

Fucking fascists.

[gumby]

5. Welcome to George Bush's "Culture of Death."

Even if you're happy you die.

[dave502d]

6. This kind of shit makes me sick.

If that was my kid,That cop's ass would be mine.This shit should
never happen.

[tlcandie]

7. So is it things like this which will wake up the sleepy heads

to the fact that protesters aren't due what they get? This is very, very sad! How totally unnecessary!!! :cry:

[saigon68]

8. Just Imagine If they were Anti-War Protestors

They would fire real 9mm bullets into the crowd from their Hk-5s .--- For "OFFICER'S SAFETY" doncha know

Jack booted thugs

[Divine Discontent]

9. very unnerving and completely pointless!

God bless her family, what a HORRIBLE thing to have to receive a call about. :'(

[Kenneth ken]

10. Don't put ALL the blame on the police

City officials announced there would be a heavy police presence in Kenmore Square after they were caught understaffed when riots broke out when the New England Patriots won the Super Bowl on Feb. 1.

In the Super Bowl aftermath, a 21-year-old man visiting his brother at Northeastern University was killed and a Northeastern student was critically injured when a vehicle plowed into a crowd of revelers.

*snip*

Early Thursday morning, several small fires were set, fireworks shot into the sky, a trash can was thrown at a fast-food restaurant sign and numerous fights broke out. Boston police reported eight arrests, mostly for disorderly conduct, though one arrest was for assault and battery on a police officer.


me:

Our society has a problem with knowing how to properly celebrate an event. It's almost as automatic as winning a championship that the "hometown" fans of the champioship team will make some effort to destroy the hometown. Do you really think it would be appropriate for police to simply take the night off and let the city burn?

Sveral here are criticizing the police for their actions, but where is the criticism for the outrageous acts of the revellers?

[Bluebear]

12. I agree in premise with your post but....

'Early Thursday morning, several small fires were set, fireworks shot into the sky, a trash can was thrown at a fast-food restaurant sign and numerous fights broke out. Boston police reported eight arrests, mostly for disorderly conduct, though one arrest was for assault and battery on a police officer.'

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/10/21/emerson_college_student_dies_after_postgame_melee_associated_press/

I watched the goings-on live on TV. There was no "riot". I also would not criticize the whold department, but SOMEONE surely fired wrong, they killed her. And yesterday the police commissioner was all over the airways warning people that the PD would be out in force etc etc. A tragic overreaction on someone's part.

I agree, though, that I don't know know when it happened that a sports victory should casue someone to toverturn a car. Senseless.

[indigobusiness]

16. Yes, it is disgusting behavior

but cars etc can be reoplaced. Lives can't.

[Bluebear]

18. Precisely.

[Psephos]

37. No win situation

Police have a shitty, thankless job when it comes to controlling large crowds of revellers, many of whom are drunk.

If they do too little, rioting can and often does break out, sometimes leading to deaths. If they do too much, nightmares like the death of the college student happen.

The idea that this was a tradeoff between a car and a life is specious. The tradeoff is between what is happening, and what will happen if order breaks down and a riot ensues. Mob behavior does not follow rules of logic. Respect for individual safety evaporates. Mob psychology figures out where the boundary lines of authority are, and attempts to press against them and surge through them. If there is no perceived boundary line, then things can get VERY ugly very quickly.

If you've never personally witnessed a mob scene turn into a riot, then you really don't know what you're talking about here. Sorry, but in this case, seeing is believing. I'm a Detroiter, I've seen, and I am still shaken by what I've seen. If you wait until a riot breaks out, then you've waited too long.

The Boston cops are a tough crowd, but then, they have to deal with a tough crowd.

All that said, I personally would never fire even a "nonlethal" projectile into a crowd. But then, I wasn't there.

[tlcandie]

58. I don't agree. I think that those horses could have been used

for a better benefit w/o these reprecussions. They could take some lessons from the New Orleans police who use horses during Mardi Gras without incident.

Honestly, when people feel threatened it escalates. FEAR is the problem. Again, learn from the New Orleans police on how to use horses to spot issues...cordone off the area and bring people in to cuff them and take them off.

They do this all the time during Mardi Gras with well placed units, horses and radios!!!

[One_Life_To_Give]

86. They were using horses

Boston Herald reporter stated that mounted officers were moving the crowd down Lansdown street when the crowd turned on them. He seemed to support the police claim that they needed to defend themselves against projectiles coming from the crowd.

What is unexplained is why this girl standing some 20ft away from the reporter, was hit by the projectile.

[Sterling]

61. I think cops have great jobs.

And if they don't like them I suggest they quit and find a more suitable type of work. God knows we have enough police on the streets that don't belong there.

[saigon68]

13. No the Police should Shoot and Kill the revellers </sarcasm>

Show me what this woman did to them?

[Kenneth ken]

15. does the word ALL confuse you?

I did not in any way shape or form claim the police were innocent. I simply pointed out that masses of people who don't know how to celebrate without destruction and violence also bear a portion of responsibility.

Maybe you watch too much tv and think police are expert marksmen who never, under any circumstance fail to hit what they're aiming at, therefore they must have been aiming to shoot her in the eye.

Or maybe you just don't have any valid points on this topic.

[saigon68]

17. No actually I have a lot of experience with the pigs

As a Veteran of numerous antiwar protests in the early 70's --I can tell you the police then justly deserved and earned the moniker "PIG"

And to answer your sarcasm--- The shooters were firing willy nilly into the crowd to disbure it--- Oh tell me please (pretty please) how many rounds did they fire to kill this girl??

[Kenneth ken]

40. you ask so nice

however, sorry, I can't tell you how many rounds they fired.

My original point, and I will say this for the third time, is the police were not 100% at fault. As I don't know how many rounds they fired, I also don't know what percent of the fault they should bear.

The other point in my earlier posts is that the people who were starting fires, overturning cars etc. also bear some responsibility. Again, I can't apportion the precise percentage, but I do see it as something greater than 0. And that is something you seem unwilling or unable to accept.

[saigon68]

50. My point in the debate

Is that in today's amerika the average toothless troop and cop supporter loves to see the authorities mow down the long hairs, protesters and liberals and kill them.

ALL (emphasis added) the police at the riot didn't kill this girl. Only the few, for what ever reason decided to fire their shotguns indiscriminately the the crowd at point blank range. What makes it so compelling is that rather than the police shooting and killing the guys who were overturning cars, they shot a killed this young girl.

The criminals in Blue and Black (the SWAT THUGS) sometimes get a cheap thrill out of smashing a minority man's orbital eye socket. Ask any black man in an inner city how many of his friends were abused by the uniformed, gun wearing "street gang" in his lifetime.

And please debate my ideas you don't really have to say "you seem unwilling or unable to accept."

This is a borderline ad hominim attack and its use in discourse adds nothing to the point you are trying to get across.

[Kenneth ken]

120. I have no problem with your criticism

of the police as generally over-the-top, too willing to escalate to violence, etc.

What my first post, and every post on this topc has been trying to point out is that the non-police also bear a certain degree of responsibility in this particular case.

You have yet to say, "yes you're right." or "no you're wrong."

My original subject message was Don't out ALL the blame on the police - not Don't put the blame on ALL the police.

It would be ridiculous for me to try to defend the police in this case when even they admit they messed up.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

35. "Destruction and violence!!!!!!!"

Petty crimes, undeserving of murder.

Anyone with a passing familiarity with the police psyche understands the bullshit.

[sidpleasant]

57. Boston police weren't "caught understaffed" after the Super Bowl

They intentionally put far fewer cops on the streets after the Super Bowl than was normal for any Sunday night. It was part of the police union's strategy during the protracted and bitter contract negotiations: to dramatize how necessary the police are by letting a mob run wild.

[tlcandie]

60. You may be on to something here...

Interesting if they are allowing a wide berth for things such as this, so they can prove that you need to use these less than lethal weapons on all crowds.

If this is true then it's not a pretty future.

[GregW]

23. Dontcha just LOVE those non-lethal projectiles

[JohnOneillsMemory]

39. Girl from here in Oakland. Many injured by cops in a peaceful protest

just before the invasion of Iraq down at the shipyards where arms were being sent to Iraq.

The cops also hit the shipyard workers who were merely coming to their jobs on the docks that day.

Team sports causes mob behaviour because it is MOCK WARFARE. It brings out the worst in people who become aggressive and desocialized.

Police work is also MOCK WARFARE with weapons.

I stay away from both groups on principle.

[Suspicious]

98. Couldn't agree more.

Team sports causes mob behaviour because it is MOCK WARFARE. It brings out the worst in people who become aggressive and desocialized.

This is something that I wholeheartedly believe, as well. Team sports - especially American-style, professional team sports - bring out the worst in people, in my personal experience. I detest the whole culture. I live near Michigan State University, and I've seen the havoc created by certain elements of the sports "fan" group up close and personal.

You're exactly right, too - put the two groups together, and you have a disaster waiting to happen.

A young girl is dead, it's senseless and beyond tragic. I believe the officer who fired into the crowd should be relieved of duty, permanently.

In the end, American culture is truly to blame.

[impe]

113. Good summation

Why didn't the police hose the crowd with water. I could think of hundreds of ways of disbanding
the little dimwits, but still insuring the safety of those unable to think for themselves. This poor woman
was obviously at the wrong place a the wrong time.

[leesa]

24. It was inevitable that this would happen some day.

I am sorry for the woman. That it happened at a sporting event and not at a protest though is probably a good thing. Had that woman with the terrible bruises at Long Beach been killed (the wooden bullet hit very close to her eye)while protesting it would have been blamed on the protestor. The American public will understand and be outraged that this happened.

[jdj]

25. My mama always said "your'e gonna put somebody's eye out

with that."

Is there anyone here whose mama never said this?

These cops must have been raised by wolves.

[tlcandie]

26. They need to learn lessons from the crowd control police in

New Orleans during Mardi Gras.

[sr_pacifica]

29. I think you're right.

Firecrackers, rocking cars...c'mon, that doesn't warrant lethal "non-lethal" projectiles. We're in a mad culture of justified killing.

[tlcandie]

31. Yes, the police have controlled drunken crowds there for YEARS

without this kind of violence! They use horses to spot problems and call in teams who are inside of crowds and on outskirts to certain positions while those on horseback move into cut off the people while they handle the situations.

I've watched it on TV. It is very methodical and simple without all this BS of decked out cops in full assault outfits and all these crowd control weapons.

The envelope IS being pushed here. How far will it go before it gets squashed or it bursts?

The way society works is that things continue along the same path until it's changed. It always inches ever further along until that line is drawn in the sand and people are shown a better way.

[sr_pacifica]

45. Cops on horses

that really works with crowd dispersal. I witnessed that years ago during a demonstration I was part of in San Francisco against Caspar Weinberger. It's so intimidating when you have that large animal close to you. People scattered when they showed up!

[tlcandie]

54. Yes, because you have to appreciate a horse who might

kick you LoL You move out of respect and concern for personal safety. :+ I watched it work in New Orleans. I was VERY impressed!!

I guess no one here is willing to see that it is possible. It seems to be an all or nothing affair. :shrug:

[One_Life_To_Give]

94. Horses were stabed during the

Horses were stabed during the 2nd Gainsboro street riot iirc. Boston, Spring 1981.

[truthisfreedom]

30. nothing like a happy crowd, huh?

modern-day America, where controlling people is more important than life itself.

[clown]

32. excessive

It seems, from the article, that the rioting that went on was rather tame compared to other sports riots (though I admit to having never been involved in one) The pictures show a really small group of people 'rioting' and a much larger group just standing around watching, does this situation really call for shots to be fired? The article called them 'less-lethal' weapons, not non-lethal, I think the cops overreacted, and I can't shake this feeling that maybe some were a little less than reluctant to show a stronger response now in the hope that it would help prevent more rioting later, you know, during the World Series.

[Skittles]

36. it's what happens when a climate of fear is created in the country

overreaction. This poor young lady paid the ultimate price.

[enki23]

38. somebody always wants to try the new toy out

.

[LiberalBushFan]

41. Life in prison for the shooter

Whether or not using the weapon was justified at all, what kind of idiot aims any projectile weapon at eye level? What did the asshole intend to hit? Someone's neck? Throat? That's why I say sentence him to life for intentional murder.

[Carolab]

42. Yes things HAVE changed

Here in Minnesota, the Twins won two world series and there were crazy celebrations in the streets with cars overturned, etc. But NO ONE was killed or even seriously injured.

There are SAFER ways to control crowds than to use tasers, wood bullets, pepper spray pellets, etc. This is OUT OF HAND and is just setting the stage for "accidental" killings among large crowds of protestors. Shades of Ohio State.

[sr_pacifica]

46. Yes, Kent State does come to mind. n/t

[0rganism]

43. No such thing as "non-lethal", it's always been "LESS LETHAL"

"Non-lethal" is just so much bullshit.

[LiberalBushFan]

44. Freepers are non-human scum even about things not related to politics

To: kattracks

victoria Snelgrove, a 21-year- old junior majoring in broadcast journalism at Emerson College,

Such a loss for society.

2 posted on 10/22/2004 12:25:05 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Hey! Hey! Ho! Ho! Dan Rather's got to go!)

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To: Paleo Conservative


She dreamed of becoming a TV reporter?

Man, we really are becoming a society of low expectations, aren't we?


3 posted on 10/22/2004 12:27:48 AM PDT by WestVirginiaRebel (John Kerry is a hunter like my name is Mohommad.)

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To: Paleo Conservative


One less Rat for the MSM. NEXT!

[sr_pacifica]

47. Absolutely sick, heartless people. What scum. n/t

[Bluebear]

48. WHEN did this happen to people?

Was it there all along? Did AM Oxycontin-radio bring this out? Did these people never have empathy? I get so discouraged.

[Justice]

51. Sad Day in Boston

This is really pitiful that our city cannot celebrate this incredible victory. It was unbelievable to watch the news live and see these people destroying property for absolutely no reason.

What is it about young white people with beer and sporting events? Everyone talks about the riots of minorities - but I tell you, this was a riot. These kids were punching out windows and glass signs. They set fire to a car with NY license plates. They tipped cars over. They were actually proud of themselves. It was digusting.

Many of these kids were college students from nearby colleges. Some are from MA but many are not.

What really rips me is these kids don't really know what it is like to be a red sox fan. They are maybe 21-22 years old - borne in the early 1980s. They didn't live thru the disappointments. They barely feel them. They only know what they see on TV. I mean, I am going to my grandparents grave on Saturday/Sunday to put a pennant flag on it as my grandfather first took me to Fenway as a child. My 70 year old dad is the person I call at the end of every game.


So for these kids to be the picture of Boston presented to the nation after that incredible victory -- it just makes me sick. Absolutely sick.

[tlcandie]

63. Sports

equal blood. Blood has always been associated with sports. Blood on the football fields. Macho, big guys..testosterone is always mixed in with sports. Sex is mixed in with sports.. pom pom girls with asses and breasts showing.

Look at hockey and football...two of the worst sports for anger and bloodlust. Gladiators of Rome. Lots of examples.

Then you mix in college age kids who believe drinking is all the rage and add some hazing into the mix and well, what you see is what you get! Everywhere we look there's violence either in attitude or action.

All these kids have done is take on the emotions and undercurrents in our society by those filled with anger, rage, hate, and murder. They are not only feeling it they are acting it out.

Yes, they are responsible, but I think we need to look at our society and decide if we want to continue into the spiraling abyss we now see.

[Red State Rebel]

70. Contrast - St. Louis last night...

After the Cards won the pennant, over 52,000 fans poured into the streets of downtown and the Laclede's Landing area (bars, restaurants). There were NO incidents of rioting or violence, if you look at the newspapers in St. Louis today you will see no reports of problems.

The difference is peoples values and attitudes, common sense.

It was the same thing when the Rams won the Super Bowl a few years back. Celebrating, a parade and rally and everyone went home safely.

I'm proud to be a St. Louisan. People may consider us "flyover country", backward, rednecks, etc., but I wouldn't live anywhere else.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

107. Boston has over 1 million students; 75% are NOT from Boston

We have good values here too. Boston is one of the safest big cities in the country. Most people are literate and tolerant.

When you mix testosterone and immaturity with alcohol, mayhem erupts. Look at the 'frat-boy' behavior on college campuses in general. Boston is a small city, and the college campuses are small and urban, so the city becomes these students' campus. We don't have miles of woods and plains seprating the college students from the general population.

Please don't judge the values of Boston by the actions of less than 1% of the crowd. I'm willing to bet that the troublemakers weren't even from the Boston metro area.

[Tigerlily]

75. There were thousands of happy people there

I was watching this unfold on the news. There was a crowd of thousands happily celebrating. At one point NO MORE THAN 5 or 6 people became destructive and starting climbing street lights and throwing trash barrels. A few more (maybe 20-30 at the MOST) gradually joined in but the MAJORITY BY FAR were there to celebrate not to be destructive. I am assuming that many were college students, as Fenway is surrounded by colleges. As usual, the reporting of this event was very distorted. I feel so badly for the young woman who was killed. This is so very sad. :(

[Tracer]

62. The girl who was shot ...

... had nothing to do with any of the vandalism.


Brett Schweinberg, an 18-year-old Emerson College freshman, said he was standing 20 feet from Snelgrove when, he said, she was shot on a Lansdowne Street sidewalk across the street from the Green Monster.

"I think hit several people, but she got hit in the face," said Schweinberg, who said he, too, was struck by the pelletlike projectiles. "People started running away. She fell down. I moved in for a closer look. She was bleeding out of the nose."

He said the shooting started after someone in the Lansdowne Street crowd threw a bottle at police. It landed near a mounted officer and the crash startled the horse, he said. Another officer turned around, Schweinberg said. "He started shooting the crowd. He shot like a 6-foot area. I think he hit several people. But she got shot in the face. He opened fire in the area of the crowd where he felt the bottle came from."

[Logansquare]

102. Yeah you see--that's nonauthorized use of blunt munitions

he was trying to get back at someone, not disperse the crowd. I hope he's pleased with himself.

[coalition_unwilling]

114. Prima facie case of 'Excessive Force'

Nothing will make this better, not even the largesse of Boston taxpayers in the lawsuit that will come.

[FlaGranny]

64. Overreacting police against

overreacting drunks. Always a recipe for disaster. Personal property is not worth a life, but vandals are a fairly worthless part of society. The parents of some people should have raised them to have more compassion and the parents of the others should have raised them to have more respect for others. Hey, isn't that more or less the same thing?

The poster above who compared sports to combat hit the nail on the head. All these people, police and crowd, were reacting to combat. Combat situations can turn fairly civilized people into dangerous people.

A couple of years ago I went to a football game. It's the last game I will EVER go to. Sports fans can be barbarians. I had to duck several times to keep from getting hit in the head by a drunken fan sitting in front of me and I nearly got pushed in front of a moving bus by another one.

Edit: It is suprising more people are not hurt or killed at or after sporting events. It is even sadder that the people doing the celebrating just think they're having fun.

[gulfcoastliberal]

65. This is out of control - cops are sending a message

I bet the cop who fired that round aimed either at her head intentionally, or tried to hit the topmost chest area just below the neck. Either way I'd be interested to know how many officers fired these things and how many rounds total were fired. A friend of mine who went to UCLA during the 90s got hit by a rubber bullet during the Brentwood riots after they won the NCAA basketball title. He got hit on the ass as he ran from the cops and said it hurt pretty bad and left a huge welt. Next up they'll be microwaving crowds.

[okieinpain]

67. my 2 cents, don't f**k with the police. take your drunk ass home.

I tell my kids that all the time, a bullet doesn't care if you're not doing anything. she knew shit was bad she should have been on the way home.

hell I don't even understand why people like to be in situations like that when you know what the outcome is going to be. sorry, but I'm too old for this shit.

[Magleetis]

68. I agree

the police will kill you and nothing will happen to them. The police in the US have become militarized. They become jaded and view everyone as just another loser that they must deal with. IMO they start treating everyone as if they are a common criminal. I really don't think they care. I make it a point never to antagonize anyone that can kill me with impunity. If it were me the minute the police showed up I would have been outta there.

[Forkboy]

69. fuck that blame the victim shit

:puke:

They had a witness on the local news.He said that someone threw a Gatorade bottle that hit near the cops feet.He turned around and when he couldn't see who did it he opened fire on ALL the people in the area.

Fucking people make me sick :puke:

[okieinpain]

71. that's why I tell my kids, (23,21,19,16), when you're in those places

at a special time like that get your ass out of the crowds. there will be fools there just waiting to start something. I'm not a big fan of the police, but they have a purpose, and a lot of the time they are in a no win situation.

[tlcandie]

72. Is this why the New Orleans police never have to result

to these types of measures because it's a no win situation? :shrug:

[okieinpain]

73. not sure what you mean. help a bro out.

[Tigerlily]

80. I think tlcandie means

that the New Orleans police have worked out a system whereby they can control a crowd without resorting to shooting. It is explained in tlcandie's other posts in this thread. :)

[shrike]

85. I was impressed with the New Orleans police during Mardi Gras

Did a great job of crowd control -- then again, they've had a lot of years to do this so they must have it down to a science.

[lordwhorfin]

109. Well, BPD could handle it in the early 1990s

I was in Alston on the night that Brazil won the world cup. It was a HUGE street party. Lots of drunk, crazy Brazilians, people driving around with open containters, women pulling off their tops, very Mardi Gras.

The BPD did something very cool. They barriered a lot of streets, set up traffic control points, and then basically kept back big crowds from flooding into the area. I'm pretty sure there was some property damage, and a LOT of DUIs at the checkpoints, but as far as I am aware, minimal injury.

I was out playing darts in Alston with a friend, and we had a great evening. People were friendly, and generally cool about the whole thing.

Maybe it's a question of demographics, but in this case I think it was a case of really bad policing judgement on the part of someone.

[puddycat]

92. the problem is something like this happens without warning.

[coalition_unwilling]

115. Just think, if the BPD killed all the journalists, they wouldn't

have to deal with the 'bad press' <\sarcasm>

[HEyHEY]

87. It's not always easy to leave a situation

once the fuzz has the area secured

[puddycat]

90. why blame the poor victim? She had a right to celebrate.

We can't live our lives holing up inside our houses because we are afraid of what may happen. When something happens like this its important to blame the people responsible--the people who did the killing. I haven't read any reports about celebrants killing anyone--just the opposite.

[Bread and Circus]

81. The police are going way too far, shooting people for no reason...

w/ anything is abhorrent. What is this country coming to?

[denidem]

88. Boston police got a lot of goodies to use at the Dem Convention

if needed. All from Homeland Security and your tax dollars at work. I personally have never heard of this kind of response (pepperballs/plastic bullets) by BPD in the 30 years I have lived here. New toys need to be used, doncha know?

[woodcutter]

95. Policeman Should be Held Accountable

The policeman should be held accountable for his actions. He is a trained professional. He is required to know the amount of force to use in any situation. If he fired his weapon randomly into a crowd at head level, resulting in the death of a citizen, he should be charged with murder.

[Dora]

100. This is just as much the fault of the citizenry of Boston

Yeah, this was horrible. The cops were stupid, and made stupid judgments, and killed a woman unnecessarily, and they deserve swift and severe punishment.

HOWEVER, isn't this also the fault of every single person in the crowd who allowed the rioting and boorish sporthead aggression? Why do we have to depend on the cops to stop a riot? In theory, if 3 out of 10 people are prone to riotous behavior after a game, shouldn't the other 7 people intervene? If the majority of people aren't stupid jackasses, shouldn't the majority rule?

I just don't understand how people can stand by and watch this sort of behavior. Our complacency is sickening. I know that cops are trigger-happy and have itchy fingers these days, but I see no logical reason why I should stand by and wait for the police to intervene when I see a man acting like a dumbass motherfucker and flipping a car over or setting it on fire. IT IS MY COMMUNITY RESPONSIBILITY to tell this guy that he's an effin jackass and he better stop or I'll jump my pregnant ass onto his back and jam my thumbs in his eyes so fast he'll think he's an olive.

For jeebus's sake - how lazy can we be? All it might take is enough people saying out loud "hey, you, don't be such an asshole," and perhaps the asshole would stop doing his asshole things, and then the cops wouldn't feel compelled to shoot rubber bullets or bean bags or tear gas.

If a tragedy is preventable, then it's our responsibility to ask what hand we could have had in preventing it.

I'm sorry that all the people of Boston have to be asking themselves this question right now.

[Bluebear]

121. Do you know what the reaction in Boston is?

[dansolo]

108. Why was the projectile shot at eye level?

If the projectile was supposed to break and release pepper spray, then shouldn't it have been fired at the ground or at least at the body? Non-lethal weapons can still be lethal if they are used by people who are not properly trained. There is going to be a huge lawsuit over this.

[tomhayes]

117. Maybe it was shot down at an angle and didn't break open

I know they shoot them down at the ground sometimes. Maybe this one didn't break, bounce and hit her in the eye.

It's tragic she died.

I do think sports "revelers" should go home and tear the shit out of their own stuff though. And keep it down, I'm trying to sleep.

Terrible tragedy for this woman.

Screw you sports fans.

-Tom

[sr_pacifica]

122. Read #62

A witness said a mounted cop shot into the crowd. It sounds like retaliation rather than crowd control was taking place.