Man Who Says He Predicted Sept. 11 Attacks Arrested

[seemslikeadream]

Michigan Native Wanted On Child Prostitution, Fraud Charges

POSTED: 1:58 pm EDT October 22, 2004
UPDATED: 2:16 pm EDT October 22, 2004

A Michigan native who claims to have predicted the events of Sept. 11, 2001, was arrested by authorities in Iowa on Wednesday.

Delmart Vreeland, 38, of Rochester Hills, was wanted by eight Michigan jurisdictions, including Oakland County, for crimes like fraud and burglary, according to a report in The Daily Oakland Press.

Read Suspect's Criminal Background

Vreeland was captured by sheriff's deputies in Iowa's Franklin County after he stopped to refuel at a gas station.

Vreeland used a credit card at the station that had an alert placed on it by authorities in Colorado -- where he is wanted on child prostitution charges, according to the paper.

Authorities in Michigan, Colorado, Virginia, Canada and New York all want to speak with Vreeland, the paper reported.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3843181/detail.html

[soleft]

1. Let one happen, stop the rest

Seems like a very long time ago we were all talking about that letter scrawled in prison.

[kainah]

206. ah yes, the early days....

It does seem like a long time ago, doesn't it? I remember the long threads with lots of gems as the research churned out.

[catzies]

2. He's still alive?

I don't know why, but I thought he was "Hatfielded."

[seemslikeadream]

3. I remember the rumors

about his death.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

4. I remembered where I had read that name... and found the article that

digs into this character.

http://www.guerrillanews.com/wildcard/vreeland_one
>>Vreeland's most vocal critics could be found on Toronto's alternative radio station CKLN. DJs Ron Anicich and Greg Duffel interviewed numerous people associated with Vreeland, including alleged victims of his scams, and the man himself, in the end, concluding he was little more than a common criminal. They also built an exhaustive Vreeland web site listing interviews, articles and every court document they could find on his case. They even composed a Negativland-esque, anti-Vreeland reworking of the disco hit "In the Navy." Partly in response to what he felt were brutal attacks from CKLN, in the spring of 2002, Vreeland developed his own site, www.ltvreeland.com. He posted information about his case, court documents and records of financial transactions involving a former Reagan White House secret operative named Leo Wanta (more on him later). The site is about as organized as a shotgun blast and did little to help his cause.<<

[seemslikeadream]

5. US KNEW AL QAEDA WOULD ATTACK W/ PLANES: Sibel Edmonds in The Independent

US KNEW AL QAEDA WOULD ATTACK W/ PLANES: Sibel Edmonds in The Independent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=458282&mesg_id=458282&page=


"I saw papers that show US knew al-Qaeda would attack cities with planes"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1342532

Mike Vreeland

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=408139

Wouldn't you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=392459&mesg_id=404006&page=

[FormerOstrich]

6. Wow....

what an instant response.

Vreeland was captured by sheriff's deputies in Iowa's Franklin County after he stopped to refuel at a gas station.

Vreeland used a credit card at the station that had an alert placed on it by authorities in Colorado -- where he is wanted on child prostitution charges, according to the paper.

I have never put much into this guy but this sort of sounds suspicious to me. If this happened as quickly as it is eluded to I'm getting refitted for the tin foil.

[lightbulb]

7. Reminds me of the Richard Case Nagell story

He was an established intelligence figure in the JFK assassination who walked into a bank shortly before JFK was killed and fired a bunch of shots into the ceiling, then walked outside, sat down, and waited to be arrested. He later explained that he needed to be incarcerated in order to avoid being part of a frame-up in the assassination.

In any case, there's a good From The Wilderness story on Vreeland's claims here:

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/04_04_02_vree_intervw.html

[grasswire]

85. wow....

...someone else remembers Richard Case Nagell. What an amazing book that was: The Man Who Knew Too Much.

[democraticinsurgent]

8. who wants to bet he won't be found hanged in his jail cell ?

or dead of a heart attack...

[htuttle]

9. "Child prostitution charges"?

Where did THAT one come from? I thought it was just check fraud? In fact, I'm SURE it used to just be 'check fraud' (basically bouncing or kiting checks).

When did they tack that one on? It sure does the job of discrediting him!

The paper had a link to his 'record', and it while it lists the other charges in detail, there is NO mention of anything near 'child prostitution'.
http://www.state.mi.us/mdoc/asp/otis2profile.asp?mdocNumber=197864

:tinfoilhat:

[cornczech04]

40. I have had this theory

for awhile....how funny it seems that almost ALL "political enemies" of the guv'ment are "pedophiles"....not 100%...but pretty weird how a GREAT MANY "enemies of freedom" (add you're own political adjective) are child molestors...the most hated creature on the planet...."They" want their enemy to be MOST vilified......and being labeled a pervert is a quick one-way ticket to be so hated.....and to ensure that your protractor's "message/statement" never be heard.....

[Castilleja]

77. I have noticed that particular trend, myself

and I think you are right, being known as a pedophile is particularly hard for anyone to escape, since it is considered the ultimate in perversion to many.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

93. It is almost a guarantee to get killed in lock up, too

I think that is the real reason.

[radwriter0555]

65. exacftly, now we KNOW he was telling the truth, don't we? when they tack

on child crime charges, you can absolutely be SURE he WAS telling the truth...

dang.

[PurityOfEssence]

66. That's how they went after Scott Ritter; that's the tactic against Chavez

Wingers are scared and disgusted by sex, and they consider themselves the protectors of all that is good and pure. Thus, child sex is the worst thing they can tag anyone with. It's also such a stain on one's reputation, that many will go along with complete ostracism with no evidence at all.

[Krupskaya]

67. I know you weren't trying to say this...

...but I think molesting kids is the worst thing anyone can be tagged with, and I'm not even a freeper!

Carry on.

[dqueue]

69. double-edged sword...

Screws 'em twice... in the eyes of society, and if they're tried and convicted, doing time on pedophilia or molestation charges is a dangerous experience; from what I understand, convicts REALLY frown upon crimes against children/adolescents...

[saigon68]

179. KICK

[AntiCoup2K4]

234. Absolutely true about convicts and "baby rapers"

Remember Father Geoghan the priestophile? Met the same grisly end as Jeff Dahmer (who himself was more a cannibal than a pedophile, though he did date/eat a few really young guys)

[dqueue]

250. definitely

Many convicts serving time for crimes involving children serve in protected custody (i.e., solitary confinement) due to the security risk on compound.

[PurityOfEssence]

79. It is

I agree completely, and being a parent has only made it more emotional for me. What's more than just fishy is how this is the preferred smear tactic used against opposition by the right. It's also a recurring theme that people who don't agree with them are sexually depraved, and that kind of assumption speaks volumes.

These guys play for keeps.

[Logansquare]

87. It's the new Communism n/t

[booksenkatz]

10. Didn't they get (or try to get) Scott Ritter on similar charges?

Something involving children and rape? Don't get me wrong, I believe that anyone who harms children should be locked up for life; but pardon me if I'm feeling a little skeptical here until we see more evidence.
:tinfoilhat:

[Stephanie]

19. Ritter was set up by cops in an internet sting

When he went to a parking lot to meet the imaginary girl, he was arrested. The charges were dismissed. Nothing happened.

*edit* AND the judge sealed the record. But during the lead-up to the Iraq war when Ritter was opposing Bush, the record mysteriously was released.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. Toronto Star, Dec. 5, 2003: "Post-9/11, this doesn't seem all that weird"

The apparent collapse of the Fonseca case also had the effect of destroying any credibility Vreeland may have had with regard to his more intriguing allegations about Sept. 11 and the death of Bastien, the Moscow embassy worker.

Until January, 2002. That's when Quebec coroner Line Duchesne concluded that Bastien, described as an information systems handler, had indeed been poisoned -- probably by someone who slipped a concentrated anti-schizophrenic drug into his drink in a Moscow bar.

Vreeland's credibility suddenly shot up.

But eight months later, while out on bail awaiting an extradition hearing, he just disappeared.

At the time, Slansky told the court he had gone to Vreeland's apartment to pick him up but found it ransacked, with key evidence related to his client's 9/11 claims missing.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/121403_rocco.html

[dqueue]

12. Why Canada?!

He was incarcerated in Canada before 9/11, as I recall reading. His reappearance just now is a bit curious. I'll have to dig for old links, as I haven't thought about Vreeland in ages.

Interesting stuff! Thanks for the article!

[spooked911]

64. So-- are there any military/NORAD exercises planned for late October?

Say, on October 27th?

:(

[Ben Grimm]

78. Ha!

Ever notice that the government is always running disaster preparedness drills around the same time that the actual disasters happen?

We all know about 9/11 but I found this interesting tidbit the other day about the day Reagan was shot by John Hinckley Jr.:

"Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger´s memoir of that afternoon reminds us of two highly relevant facts. The first is that a "NORAD exercise with a simulated incoming missle attack had been planned for the next day." Weinberger agreed with General David Jones, the chiarman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, that this exercise should be cancelled.


Weinberger also recalls that the group in the Situation Room was informed by James Baker that "there had been a FEMA exercise scheduled for the next day on presidential succession, with the general title ´Nine Lives.´ By an immediate consensus, it was agreed that exercise should also be cancelled." "


http://www.kmf.org/williams/bushbook/bush17.html

[loudsue]

140. YES!!! As a matter of a fact: FEMA is doing their thing on ELECTION DAY

I don't have a link to the DU threads about it at the moment, but the past week there has been outrage on some DU threads that FEMA is supposed to be "out of pocket" again on election day, doing the SAME kinds of exercises that were going on during the 9/11 bush debacle.

So, YES. You can look it up on the archives here....I've got to go cook for company coming for dinner, or I'd start the search. Someone have a link here??

:kick::kick::kick:

[notadmblnd]

178. I could just be imagining it,, but I thought there wasa thread here

a short while back about FEMA running drills on election day?

[Andy_Stephenson]

13. This is a BS story...

he called me this morning.

Told me something was up...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=392459

[seemslikeadream]

14. Thanks

but was he arrested?

[Andy_Stephenson]

16. He told me he turned himself in...

said there is a plot in the works...to take place next week and he wants it to be stopped. I have contacted a trusted friend for him that is all I know at this time.

[Minstrel Boy]

18. Thanks Andy

Rocco and Paul will be very interested in these developments.

:hi:

[Stephanie]

20. Geez! A plot in the works?

Should I get out of town?

[BeHereNow]

21. OH MY GOD!

I am not at liberty to say anything other than I
have the same information from another source
regarding the same. A VERY trusted source.
HOLY SHIT-
Did he say where?
BHN

[impe]

22. Let me quess

either the 29th or 31st?

[BeHereNow]

24. Certainly

in that ballpark- why do you say those dates?
BHN

[impe]

27. Shhhhh......

they'll send me back to the dungeon. (I'm a tin-foil hatter and astute study of the
9/11 symbolism) or for most of history for that matter.

[nodehopper]

25. look...

I am not trying to jump all over you (or GB&C) BUT
there is a tendency towards fear-mongering on this board. I remeber Kfgnally or whatever and his "secret revelations" about the flu that was going to kill us all last spring.

If you do, in fact, know something, about a time or a date, you owe it to people to warn them. If for some reason you can't do that, then you shouldn't post things like "I know something you don't but I can't tell you." Because then what it amounts to is the same crap we are fed by Rumsfield and Ashcroft...something might happen...we can't tell you exactly when and where.

You make it sounds like you know something more specific than the general lot of us who have long thought that the October surprise would come as a "terrorist" attack. If you do know more, you should share and help people. If you can't share, then this is basically fearmongering.

[Andy_Stephenson]

28. If I knew more

I would say but I don't.

[nodehopper]

29. well

but Be_Here_Now is certainly making it sound like he/she knows the date. That's why I responded to them. I appreciate your response.

[Ben Grimm]

32. WTF?

He called you before he was arrested?

Knew he was going to be arrested?

This case has fascinated me since the first day I heard about it and I can't believe the man just resurfaces out of the blue at a gas station after all these months.

What is going on?

[Andy_Stephenson]

34. No he called me from jail

after the arrest. Wanted me to contact some others he trusts.

[Ben Grimm]

35. Re: No he called me from jail

And he told you there would be another attack in a week?

[nodehopper]

82. quick question...

I looked through the archives on the Vreeland stuff bc it is of interest to me and I remember hearing that he was arrested/died/was arrested again and that kind of stuff always gets my attention, (like Khalid Shiekh Muhammed that somehow died dramatically according to the press a year before he was arrested). I saw that people gave you a lot of crap for your postings, I am not here to do that, but I have a question: I went to the link and looked at the original note. Why has there been such a big deal made out of the fact that he predicted 9/11 in the media? All it said in the note was a list of high-profile targets, and in fact next to WTC there were years 2007 and 2009 if I remember correctly. Yet there were all these articles about "man who predicted 9/11." Was there another part of the note? Or is there a part of the story that I am missing that I didn't get from the newspaper stories I read through?

thanks, I'd appreciate it if you could just give me a quick summary, I am lost in hyperlinks...

[BeHereNow]

30. None of us KNOW anything-

and I am certainly not advocating fear mongering-
I DO on the other hand know someone who has,
through various methods, conluded that it is very likely
that there will be an "event" next weekend.
I am inclined through my experience with this individual
to say I am taking heed of this thread as it relates
to my acquaintance. Sorry, I don't have any concrete
information, but I do have past experience with the
accuracy of this person regarding related topics.
Use your own common sense- what would benefit
the empire right about THEN?
Personally, I plan to stock up on food, water and cash-
I pray NOTHING happens, but I also put NOTHING past
the criminals in the WH.
BHN

[maveric]

15. So you are the one that claims to know Vreeland. I remember threads

you posted a year or two ago. Many here on DU gave you a lot of shit about that.
Vreeland may be a bit wierd but I happen to beleive him.

[greatauntoftriplets]

41. He knows Vreeland....

Not just a claim.

[Sterling]

49. I can vouch for GB&C's cred, he's the real thing.

nt

[BeHereNow]

50. Please see my reply to you on both

this thread and your PM.
I will be in touch tomorrow night.
Please look at the OCT 27 links in my "cities" reply to you.
I sent them to you in PM too.
I have to go now, I am late.
BHN

[greatauntoftriplets]

37. Now this is getting me creeped even more.....

Something IS afoot, as Sherlock would say.

I know, I know.

[Tight_rope]

105. Thanks...Unfucking believeable!

[Blue Gardener]

152. Any idea why he was in Iowa?

Read the posts about moving equipment from the Minneapolis armory to Des Moines or the Quad Cities. Since Franklin county is on I-35 between the Twin Cities and Des Moines, I'm just wondering if there is a connection. I live right off of I-80 (Iowa City area) and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary as far as the moving of military equipment, but then I don't travel on the interstate much. I too have family in the Twin Cities, and this post does have me a bit concerned.

[seventhson]

171. he reported, apparently, that he was "tracking" the perps

two hours or so south of the Twin Cities on the interstate.

[sufi]

154. shit--this thread has gone to "archives" and is "unavailable until after

the election. Can you help by posting the infor HERE?

Thanks,

[Minstrel Boy]

17. former Crown Attorneys write that they made "head bashing attempts"

to warn Canadian and US authorities of Vreeland's warning, beginning in June 2001.

Link to court document:

http://sanderhicks.com/ex_v.html

[seventhson]

88. VERY interesting letter

raises more questions than it answers.

Buty the questions it raises, I believe, tend to bolster his credibility.

WHY would people not even want to interview him?

Why would he ONLY agree to speak to government law enforcement and NOT to his lawyers?

Why was Galati threatened and did he withdraw from the case?

Where has Vreeland been for the last six months or year?

Interesting.

[seemslikeadream]

23. Before there was Sibel Edmonds there was Vreeland

Edmonds said "My translations of the pre 9-11 intercepts included (terrorist) money laundering, detailed and date specific information enough to alert the American people, and other issues dating back to 1999 which I won't go into right now."

Incredibly, Edmonds said "The senate Judiciary Committee, and the 911 Commission have heard me testify for lengthy periods of time time (3 hours) about very specific plots, dates, airplanes used as weopons, and specific idividuals and activities."

This explosive information has been kept under wraps by the White House, CIA, FBI, and DOJ since Edmond's 60 Minutes interview segment.

The former FBI translator told tomflocco.com that "translators before me had ongoing personal relationships with the subjects or targets of the FBI and DOJ pre 9-11 investigations linked to intercepts and other intelligence in June - July - August, just prior to the attacks."

...

"This whole situation is outrageous and I am going public," said Edmonds, adding "I am currently being advised by counsel. Thank you."

http://www.tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=art...

[proud patriot]

26. woa ...I remember this story , but brushed it off a bit

:tinfoilhat:

[seventhson]

31. When did Vreeland get released in Canada???

I wondered where he was.

Seems like getting arrested so as not to get blamed for something is a fair tactic, but the charges against him sound awful and damage his credibility. On the other hand the CIA etc have long been known to use sexual blackmail (inclsuing child protitution) to "get" people and blackmail them.

Isn't there a whole school of thought on the Bushes etc enbgaged in child sexual abuse and sex rings?

Anyone have more on that or where Vreeland has been --- seems the charges were pending when he was in Cananda so how did he get back in the US without arrest or was he extradited?

anyone know more?

[Eloriel]

33. Doesn't their MO also include other things besides blackmail

so that they CAN get agents arrested and thereby taken out if they start to be a problem? Also makes it easier to discredit them as "common thieves," "con men and women," etc. Right?

[Ben Grimm]

36. from the beginning...

This whole story stinks of disinformation

[Jazzgirl]

38. Hmmm.....

:eyes:

[BeHereNow]

39. Precisely.

This man is the same man who tried to get the word
out about 9-11.
He was most recently trying to get the word out about
another attack.
He knows- he has documents.
Please do not probe me further on how I got that
information.
Twin Towers...twin ------.
Figure it out and hope he is wrong.
BHN

[seventhson]

42. cities?

Heartland?

[BeHereNow]

45. Yes.

Check your PM.

[BeHereNow]

47. October 27, 1941

September 11th, 1941- first cornerstone of Pentagon laid.
October 27th 1941:
Go here and look at October 27.
http://www.geocities.com/onthisday2000/october.htm
Also read this:
http://nhs.needham.k12.ma.us/cur/Baker_00/2002_p5/baker_p5_1-02_nwv-jp/hungary_bloody_revolt.htm
Budapest.
Two cities.
BHN

[phish420]

61. First Link Doesnt Work

[Forkboy]

62. 2 entries for Oct 27 1941

On This Day in 1941 The Chicago Daily Tribune dismissed the possibility of war with Japan,editorializing,"She cannot attack us.That is a military impossibility.Even our base at Hawaii is beyond effective striking power of her fleet."

On This Day in 1941 The Nazis directed the evacuation of the gypsy ghetto in Belgrade.World War II.

[maxsmom]

153. October 27

Does anyone here realize that John Kerry is scheduled to be in Minnesota on Oct. 27?
What: Fresh Start for America Rally with John Kerry in Rochester
When: Wednesday, October 27
Doors open at 11:00 a.m.
Where: Taylor Arena in the Mayo Civic Center
30 Civic Center Drive SE
Rochester, MN

[dqueue]

174. better...

Kerry and Edwards attend a rally together in the Twin Cities on the 26th...

[lovuian]

199. My friend saw his itinerary and you are correct ...BUT

This story must be leaking out cause the Television News just said that the candidates may not be where their Itinerary says due to certain circumstances!!!

I hope that means Kerry was told!!!

[nodehopper]

72. are you basing this on anything besides a sort of cabbalistic numerology?

I am asking because there was a lot of similar stuff flying around about June 11th and other dates as well. So is this conclusion arrived at by some kind of historical deduction or is there actual current information about it? you can PM me if you don't want to reply here.

[dqueue]

75. Senator Dayton...

Interesting that Senator Dayton (D-Minn) closed his DC office, citing concerns of terra-izm.

[ensemble]

118. Another Article on Dayton...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/oct2004/dayt-o23.shtml

seems like a lot of scare tactics in the upper Midwest.

[tlcandie]

135. From that article...

<snip>
Next Monday a group that has privately investigated the crash will hold a press conference in Washington to voice its conviction that Wellstone’s death was a political assassination.
<snip>

[seemslikeadream]

132. Dayton - SOLVING THE 9/11 Crime A Citizens’ Grand Jury" International

Dayton - SOLVING THE 9/11 Crime A Citizens’ Grand Jury" International

SOLVING THE 9/11 Crime - A Citizens’ Grand Jury" International Experts Convene to Present Evidence in Los Angeles

911TruthLA.us presents "SOLVING THE 9/11 Crime - Join the Citizens’ Grand Jury". International Experts Convene in person & on video to Present Evidence in LA. Sat. Oct. 23 5 -11 p.m. Press Conference 4 p.m. Bob Hope Patriotic Hall, Los Angeles. In Person - Authors and Researchers Webster Tarpley, Chris Bollyn, Barbara Honegger, Jim Hoffman, Don Paul. On Video: Mindy Kleinberg, David Ray Griffin, Paul Thompson, Nafeez Ahmed, Michael Springmann, Sen. Mark Dayton. Plus New Book Premiere of George Bush: The Unauthorized Autobiography.

Los Angeles, CA (PRWEB) October 24, 2004 -- 911 TruthLA.us, a 9/11 research website, is presenting a conference on alternative viewpoints on 9/11 Saturday, Oct. 23 in Los Angeles. The title of the event is "SOLVING THE 9/11 Crime - A Citizens’ Grand Jury." Materials will be presented by a dozen authors and researchers on 9/11, five in person and the others on video.

The event takes place following a 4 p.m. press conference at the Bob Hope Patriotic Hall, 1816 S. Figueroa @ Washington - Los Angeles 90015, from 5 pm – 11 pm. For further details call 818-784-3623

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/10/emw171030.htm

[catzies]

149. So did anyone attend that event & can fill us in?

I didn't read this thread yeterday, or I would have gone... :(

[despairing optimist]

114. Minneapolis? Mall of America?

This time it's trade from the world in the form of shopping rather than dealmaking with the world at the WTC.

How's that for a guess? Lots of potential for even worse casualties than on 9/11.

[Minstrel Boy]

43. I wrote about this practice a while ago on my blog.

Disreputable Men
Sept 18

Gary Sick's is an interesting story. Sick is the author of October Surprise, one of the best accounts of the covert deal struck in the Fall of 1980 between senior Republicans, arms merchants and Iranian mullahs to delay the return of the American hostages until Ronald Reagan's inauguration. But as interesting as it is, that's not the story I mean. I'm talking about Sick's own story: his passage from career White House insider to "conspiracy theorist."

Sick served on the National Security Council under three presidents and was the principal White House aide on the Iran file during the fall of the Shah and the hostage crisis. He knew, or so he thought, how Washington worked, because he'd been working it. And though the timing of the hostages' release appeared suspect, there was no need, Sick thought, to resort to talk of conspiracies. However, as time went on, "seemingly inescapable fragments of information began to appear....

My experience was not unlike that of a medieval scholar discovering traces of a hidden text beneath the script of an old parchment.... I felt as if I were wandering into a spy novel. The backgrounds and activies of some of these individuals who were emerging from the shadows of this operation seemed to come out of fiction, and yet they were real.... most of my professional life had been spent as an analyst of political and military intelligence. I knew that there were operatives for hire, ready to skirt the law for money, perhaps out of habit or duty, or simply for the thrill and sense of power illegal acts conveyed. But it was nonetheless a shock to meet them....

Gradually, this Beltway veteran was introduced to a whole other level at which Washington conducted its business. Despite all his years at the NSC he'd had no experience of this, and though he'd always known a covert world existed, he'd spared it little thought. But there it was, in the corroborating testimony of witnesses, arms dealers and operatives. And what he was learning was nothing less than the secret history behind the official history he'd helped to write.

If you think you've undergone a paradigm shift, spare a thought for Gary Sick.

He discovered the secret company which respectable men like William Casey and George Herbert Walker Bush kept: liars, cheats, gunrunners and drug traffickers. Disreputable men. Intelligence agencies would be lost without them. And if they ever squeal, they are readily dismissed on nothing more than the broad outline of their character; their incendiary allegations against the powerful and respectable extinguished with barely a sizzle, regardless of the evidence supporting their charges.

Here's Sick, again, in October Surprise:

Such characters are a researcher's nemesis; they are meant to be. When the CIA or other intelligence agencies need to hire a "contractor," who may be required to carry out taks that are potentially dangerous and of questionable legality, they look for three things: a specific and useful skill (a knowledge of money-laundering, perhaps); a romantic streak that glorifies both the secrecy and the risk; and a propensity for exageration and trouble. One former CIA officer, David MacMichael, has said that the agency looks for these freelancers at small community airports and gun ranges - places where men go to excape the boredom of everyday life. Looking for adventure, these men are fascinated by the imagined glamour and excitement of the world of espionage. MacMichael said that often, after one or two assignments, the agency will put a contractor on a case in which he runs afoul of the law. The contractor finds himself in a compromising position - nothing so major as to put him permanently out of commission, but significant enough that if he ever starts telling tales out of school about covert operations, his record will discredit his testimony.

This is something the coincidence theorist perpetually refuses to credit: the perfect plausible deniability inherent in employing such characters. These are scoundrels, liars and criminals. If they ever choose to talk, who's going to take their word over that of respectable men of high station?

And to the practiced coincidentalist, it doesn't matter how well the testimony is corroborated. The evidence is discarded, sometimes for fantastic reasons, with the circular, unspoken rationale that if it confirms the word of a known liar then it must be false.

Take, for instance, the case of Delmart Vreeland. A scoundrel by every account, but also one with exceptional information for those with ears to hear. He did pass on the "Let one happen, stop the rest" warning from a Toronto jail cell before 9/11; his claim that Canadian diplomat Marc Bastien had been poisoned in Moscow has been proven correct; the Pentagon unwittingly acknowledged his lengthy service record when it was called in open court, by relying on archived records undamaged by the 9/11 attack from which he had not been purged (the prosecution argued, incredibly, that Vreeland must have hacked into the Pentgon files from his jail cell); Leo Wanta, longtime intelligence asset who destabilized the Soviet ruble in the '80s at the White House request, confirmed Vreeland was an operative of the Office of Naval Intelligence; his lawyers did receive death threats and found their files vandalized; and Vreeland has vanished.

But none of that matters to the coincidentalists, who stubbornly refuse to see deeper than the "legends" created for men like Vreeland, which is precisely the point. So Lee Harvey Oswald is a "communist," and Barry Seal just a drug runner. That Oswald was seen with the CIA's David Atlee Phillips in September 1963, and Barry Seal was gunned down with Vice President George Bush's personal phone number in his trunk, need to be ignored. The coincidentalists can't make sense of such evidence, that respectable men would have anything to do with such characters. But without them, some respectable men would be able to do very little.

http://www.rigorousintuition.blogspot.com

[seventhson]

54. Great Blog by the Way

Please see your DUMail

[Andy_Stephenson]

55. and you should look at yours

mmmkay?

[Eloriel]

103. Ahhh, that's exactly what I was remembering in my post upthread

Specifically:

MacMichael said that often, after one or two assignments, the agency will put a contractor on a case in which he runs afoul of the law. The contractor finds himself in a compromising position - nothing so major as to put him permanently out of commission, but significant enough that if he ever starts telling tales out of school about covert operations, his record will discredit his testimony.

Thanks, MB!

[sangh0]

44. True or not, I think this idea stinks

Either it's true, and people aren't warning others about it, or it's not, and people are scare-mongering. I'm not saying anyone *is* acting with bad intentions, (on edit: or that it's not true) but the whole line gives me the creeps.

[Ben Grimm]

46. An Enigma Wrapped in a Riddle

The whole thing reminds me of the arrests around the time of the JFK Assasination. The three tramps and things like that.

[Sven77]

48. they attack people of truth

I dont know who this guy is, but they went after Scott Ritter the same way.

So the police just happened to conduct a "sex sting" operation against the one man who had exposed the lies of our war-mad rulers from the inside. On the eve of war, as hundreds of thousands protest in the streets, this staunch Republican and solid family man who has become one of the War Party's most formidable enemies is suddenly "exposed" as a child molester.

http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/01/1564760_comment.php

[BeHereNow]

51. To discredit him

and any information he is trying to impart-
the quickest way is to nail him on some knee jerk charge.
BHN

[RainDog]

52. Questions

Can someone summarize the content of the video from the other GBaC thread? Is it anything new, or is it about the Franklin/King issue?

This relates more to that thread, but since you're talking about Vreeland in relation to the charges of using blackmail via tapes of pols and children, etc...

I thought you might find this site of interest.

This has been on the website below since Oct 18th. I know because I've been checking the site. I cannot vouch for this site and have no idea who is involved in it, but this relates to your earlier thread, GBaC.

The latter part of this post is interesting also because earlier the site said the U.S. was preparing to attack Iran. Iran and EU members have been in negotiations, and who knows who blackmails whom. I wonder if Chalabi was the person, if this is true, who got this info to Iran?

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1143.htm

For the present, no names but they will follow. Seems a former White House aide, (Reagan White House) was caught running a male prostitution service and got fired from the Monkey Palace, and later from the RNC for supplying muscular boy toys to some top Beltway gays. Well, after being fired, our bozo got together with a Muslim druggie and set up operations at the Kennedy-Warren, a landmark DC apartment/business complex. They ran a male escort service supplying young studs to older Beltway citizens. Among these citizens were: Federal judges, top political figures, mostly Republican, very senior military people and certainly members of Congress. The head of this service, that utilized credit cards for payment, supplied young men, mostly young servicemen, between 18 to 25 for sex. They kept very complete records, including names and address of the johns as well as credit card receipts. And later there was blackmail and now, I have learned from the inside, this joker has sold the lists to: Iranians( through his partner’s Arab connections)  and a gay group in DC. Sold the lists twice and got twice the money. I have seen a partial list and it reads like the DC social register, believe me! This enterprising young man is very liable to end up at the bottom of the Potomac River just like ex-CIA chief Bill Colby who was terminated by his former employees because he just couldn’t keep his mouth shut about certain things. I won’t have old Bill’s problem because I am not a Princeton man and even you don’t know who I am. You had the intestinal fortitude to print the material about the planned Iranian attack and maybe you will do the same with this one. I know a number of people inside the Beltway read your site…and loathe you…and if they read this and are closet queens, the sale of dignity pants will soar in the next few weeks. My, my, such lovely names! The Washington Times did a front page story on this joker some time back, by the way, but no one dared to touch him because of what, and whom, he knew…and serviced…”

[Minstrel Boy]

53. The video's about the Franklin/King issue.

It's a supressed documentary from the UK's Yorkshire television.

Karl, the former-Republican MIHOPer, has mentioned systemic paedophilia, too.

I don't know if America will ever be ready to hear about this stuff.

FYI, here's the website of Kathleen Sullivan, survivor of CIA trauma-induced mind control.

[RainDog]

57. Thanks for answering my question(s)

Like I said above, the site I linked to has some pretty strange stuff on it, but they're equal opportunity bashers of the left and right, for the most part. And they're not nearly as strange as a lot of stuff that gets put up for discussion on this site.

I don't know what to think about all of these accusations.

I think it's obvious that covert ops blackmail people. Sorting out what's real and what's not is beyond me.

I do know that if children are used in this way, and it seems clear that the Franklin/King issue has some substance, this must not be allowed, anymore than the rape of children by our "allies" in torture in Iraqi prisons and elsewhere must not be allowed....

and yet it is allowed.

Not to mention the slavery that occurs in Bush-friendly Saudi Arabia and other places that is well known.

I also don't know what I think about KWBS either.

Vreeland is another mystery.

One thing for sure is that the Bush administration is so secretive and so aligned with people and ideas that seem counter to democracy and the well being of American citizens, you have to wonder what the depths of their depravity might be.

[lovuian]

56. Everything is Connected!!!

and there are no coincidences!!!

[leesa]

58. He knew if he came back to the states they would kill him.

Our gov will off him. Maybe he just doesn't care anymore

[peacetalksforall]

59. I don't want to link right now - can someone explain 'Franklin-King'?

I've been overwhelmed tonight with the hermes-press link. Holes are filled in. What a piece of enlightening history. I'd like to know if anyone finds any inaccuracies. It is plausible and if it clarifies and supplies rational explanations, then ??????

http://www.hermes-press.com/impintro1.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

60. Here's something I posted

to my blog last month that could be an intro to the Franklin/King story. It contains links to further info:

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/09/why-do-people-say-such-terrible-things.html

And thanks for that hermes-press link!

[seemslikeadream]

63. yes thanks higher class

for that link

[starroute]

70. Can someone explain the Anglo-American / Naval Intelligence connection?

This is something I've been getting only vague hints of and would love to see clarified. The few points I'm aware of are:

1) Naval Intelligence has a significant of its own, quite separate from the CIA. This thread says Vreeland was Naval Intelligence. Lee Harvey Oswald was also connected with Naval Intelligence.

2) Part of the story is that Naval Intelligence is older than the CIA. It was active back before World War II and was strongly influenced by the British intelligence services. Naval Intelligence has always had a more elite or even aristocratic aspect than the CIA. It may have its own agenda.

3) When I try to find out anything beyond this, I fun into a lot of very old-line conspiracy theories about the CFR and the Federal Reserve and LaRouche mutterings about the Rothschilds, much of it with an obvious anti-Semitic bias, and I don't know what can be believed.

Was there *really* a high-level, elite Anglo-American conspiracy going on in the late 19th century to bring the US and Britain into alliance? If so, what role did it play in the 1920's and 1930's? Does it still exist today, and if it does, what is it up to? Can it explain either Tony Blair's positions or the mysterious William Stamps Farish III? What about the Carlyle Group? And is there any significance to either Clinton's Rhodes Scholarship or Kerry's naval service and the Forbes family's strong British ties?

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but people here seem to have access to certain lines of information that I don't. If there are any clear-cut and credible discussions of this material available online, I would love to be clued in. I did glance at the Hermes Press site and will return there later today, and maybe I will find some of the answers, but I suspect this has to go a lot broader and deeper than merely "Anglo-American oil interests."

[prayin4rain]

68. I just heard about this Vreeland person so I began reading up on him.

Now I have a question...Doesn't Vreeland claim that Iraq IS responsible for 9-11, along with Russia? If this is true, you people that know him, why do you not think Iraq is responsible? (if you don't) This really confuses me about this guy.

[spooked911]

71. So-- are there any military/NORAD exercises planned for late October?

say on Oct. 27th? :(

(I'm new here and my first post seems to have ended up in the wrong place):(

[prayin4rain]

73. LOL- aww Cheer up buckeroo!

I am new too, so I'll go ahead and welcome ya :)
Keep posting one will have to fall in the right place eventually.
:hi:

[NecessaryOnslaught]

84. welcome

to you as well!:hi: Mom's gonna fix it all soon.;)

[prayin4rain]

86. Thanks man. That's what I keep tellin' myself....soon, very soon.

B-)

[Karenina]

80. As a matter of fact

IIRC there IS a FEMA "drill" scheduled for November 2nd. Fasten your seatbelts, kids. Turbulence ahead.

[Tesibria]

74. Has anyone read Ruppert's take on Vreeland in Crossing the Rubicon?

Just wondering. Ruppert essentially said that Vreeland puts out a ton of misinformation and used him (Ruppert) to play the CIA (and lots more that has probably already been discussed ad nauseum here)

Ruppert publishes a copy of the note. (Ruppert also implied, a few times, that he thought Vreeland was probably dead.)

Ruppert acknowledges (as he must) that Vreeland is an incredibly shady character who is a master of disinformation. Ruppert's sole focus on Vreeland is that August 18 note.

What I don't get -- haven't got since i first read it is...

The "story" is that Vreeland wrote this note with a "special" pen and had it placed under "lock and key" around August 18. The note reportedly predicted the attacks. The stated reason for the note was to prove that he had foreknowledge of an attack that was about to happen in the US. His lawyers were trying to get Canadian and US officials to talk to him to hear his warning.

If that note was intended to "prove" foreknowledge, Vreeland is not nearly as smart as Ruppert and others make him out to be. It is almost gibberish. Yes -- it mentions targets (targets, by the way, that had been mentioned in the press multiple times). Yes -- it mentions planes (which had just been in the press in July as a result of the G-8 Summit). It did NEITHER very clearly.

It also mentioned a bunch of other stuff -- that to date -- based on what I've read, makes no sense whatsoever.

Now, Ruppert said that it was written in some sort of "code" that intelligence people would understand -- but -- I still don't get it.

[lovuian]

76. I have a question on this??? Any ideas would be helpful?

This is from Vreeland's testimony

The name of the defense system is SSST . There are five different individual and unique defensive and strike capabilities of the system. The only portion that I have publicly spoken on is one frame regarding actual current orbiting satellites, which are not at this time owned by the US government. On advice of counsel I cannot discuss the other components.

This one component is a satellite system. Within the confines of the system there are multiple, deployable space/orbital EMP missiles that are not aimed at the ground. They are targeted at everyone else's satellites. These would kill worldwide communications. The satellites of some countries that are shielded with titanium are protected from these weapons. The protected countries are Russia and China, but U.S. satellites are vulnerable and Putin has told Bush that the U.S. missile defense system doesn't work, and that Bush knows it.


Now when I read this what came to my mind is the Space Shuttle being put out of commission at a time where America needed to be up there in space more than ever. a very bad coincidence

I know China has put sattelites up recently and is wanting to get into the Space race with us. And its amazing that the Russians and Chinnese have beaten a technological power house like America in Space but thats what it looks like. And didn't Israel fail to put a sattelite up recently.

If we lose Satellites then communication would be down for us but not China and Russia because they are protected. We would still have cable and wired phone systems but those cell phones would be trash

I mean Russia keeps telling our Military get their act together and why do I feel like they are sitting on their butts. I see WWIII coming definitely and if we are attacked I think Americans are going to ticked off at Bush cause that is two attacks coming while he is in the Whitehouse.

I also noticed the area talked about is Home to some of the most Liberal minded people in the US and Home to many Catholics
Where its located would effect limited area of the US and yet it confirms to me Its the most liberal area of the country.Interesting place for an attack!!!

[seventhson]

81. It has to be said that

so called "dirty" bombs are probably way more scary sounding than they would likley be damaging.

They are NOT effective antipersonnel or materiel weapons and, even though we can expect cancer and mutations down the road (anmd pregnant females would need to take extraordinary precautions to protect themesleves) the main goal of such weapons are terror and NOT damage.

That is one way of looking at this "threat" == that it is not a serious one but a political one solely designed to scare us (whether it happens or not)

[despairing optimist]

83. Well, it depends where the dirty bombs are set off

Here in NYC, if suicide bombers set off dirty bombs at the Times Square, Herald Square, and Grand Central subway stations, they'd knock out the subway system. It may not constitute a large part of the city, but the subways are a life line and the city would suffer irreparable economic harm even though the casualties may be relatively low when compared to a nuclear bomb. Also, contamination would spread above ground to the city's main tourist areas, shopping and theater districts, and office buildings. In other words, dirty bombs can be more serious than people generally think they are.

[Marthe48]

89. protecting yourself somewhat

if you are exposed to a dirty bomb, at least get a wet cloth over your nose and mouth, the plastic and duct tape in one room of your house will protect you from the particulates. Linda Moulten-Howe was interviewing Scott Portzline, a security consultant.

http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=803&category=Environment

is a transcript of the report.

[seventhson]

90. and have some kelp or iodized salt at least

potassium iodide to protect the thyroid from radioactive iodine which gets absorbed by the thyroid if your supply is low and passes through with little damage if your thyroid is already full of its requirements.

[Marthe48]

91. my friend lives near a nuclear power plant

within 40 miles or so, and at the public school it was mandatory for the kids to take potassium iodide before classes start in the fall.

When Clinton was in office it was the first time in my whole life I wasn't worried about nuclear war. Nice while it lasted.

[seventhson]

92. Me too. I keep a jar of kelp in the pantry

they have distributed these pills within a ten mile radius to all civilians. But since these things can happen anywhere we should ALL have them. Before the first clouds or air hit you )or water drunk or swum in, after such an attack you should have plenty of the potsassium iodide in you for protection.

There are other things you can do too, but this is the first thing imho.

[truthisfreedom]

137. potassium iodate is a lot better. it has very long shelf-life and it is

not bitter. i found medical corps brand potassium iodate to be cheaper than some other brands.

http://medicalcorps.org/special.html

[Marthe48]

143. Is it easy to buy this stuff?

I hope the we pass the shelf life without ever needing to use it

[seventhson]

94. New Articles (today and yesterday and links)

http://theoaklandpress.com/stories/102204/loc_20041022025.shtml


http://theoaklandpress.com/stories/102304/loc_20041023013.shtml

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/10/its-probably-nothing.html (DUer Minstrel Boy's Blog)

http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=917


Posted by admin on 2004/10/22 10:13:00 (6323 reads)


Update: According to DU-member "God_bush_n_cheney", known as a close correspondent of Vreeland, he called him this morning and told him, " he turned himself in...said there is a plot in the works and he wants it to be stopped..."

Man Who Says He Predicted Sept. 11 Attacks Arrested
Michigan Native Wanted On Child Prostitution, Fraud Charges

ClickOnDetroit.com -October 22

A Michigan native who claims to have predicted the events of Sept. 11, 2001, was arrested by authorities in Iowa on Wednesday.

Delmart Vreeland, 38, of Rochester Hills, was wanted by eight Michigan jurisdictions, including Oakland County, for crimes like fraud and burglary, according to a report in The Daily Oakland Press...

[Andy_Stephenson]

95. Just got this Via Email

From:
To: [e-mail]
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 2:29 PM
Subject: Fwd: Anybody know what is going on?

From: Vicky D
Date: October 23, 2004 1:25:57 PM CDT
To: RM-COUNSEL
Subject:Fwd: Anybody know what is going on?




Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 13:09:57 -0500
Subject: OH SH*T

I just got off the phone with my friend Dave that drives truck cross country, and he said that the Amory in the Twin Cities (about an 80 acre site) is EMPTY of all equipment, and he has been passing military contractor convoys all day with earth movers, communications trailers, and tanks heading toward the Mississippi. He also said he has been seeing a LOT of white unmarked vans and big trucks all over the interstates and highways the past week or so. heads up guys. Something is going on.

-Jena




Vicky D

[ParanoidPat]

99. I received the same.

Interesting.

[oldtime dfl_er]

104. what are the implications of this?

Im an imbecile and I can't connect the dots. I have a lot of family in Minneapolis and am weighing whether to say something to them or not. Can anyone clue me in as to what this movement of convoys might mean?

[Ohio rules]

164. FEMA going to Florida was the conspirecy theory answer

A conspirecy theory/urban legend website debunked the chain e-mail.

Those letters were going around over a month ago when the three hurricanes ripped Florida up.
It was said to be FEMA trucks going south in convoy fashion and taking various other emergency transpotation vehicles with them besides 'white vans'.

[LonesomeOne]

168. Um no...

This happened YESTERDAY and was seen by a friend on mine who is a truck driver and so damn "normal" it isn't even funny. He doesn't buy into conspiracy theories, junk emails with lies, etc. But this spooked him BADLY. And for somehting to give him the heebies, it has to be BAD.

[Bosso 63]

96. I have two small children here in mpls

What am I supposed to do with this?

[seemslikeadream]

97. Can you or do you know anyone that can verify this?

Do you know where the armory is? Can you find out if anyone has seen these vehicles on the road?

[Andy_Stephenson]

98. Eric J in MN

I PM'd him with the email hopefully he will respond.

[Bosso 63]

100. I'm in the dark.

There are only a few military installations here that I know of. There is an Airlift Wing stationed at the MSP airport, and an ammunition facility in the northern suburbs (Arden Hills) that I believe is closed. So I'm not sure what "armory" is being discussed? As for military movements, convoys, etc. -- I have not seen anything, but as I said I have two small kids, so I don't get out much.

[peacetalksforall]

101. Here is a link to training and trade show at an Armory in St Paul -

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/Documents/Page-11-1.html

1530 S Maryland Ave

They also use it for shows....

Here's something about a Stamp Show being cancelled because the National Guard has something they need it for-

http://www.iowastamps.com/owners.html

"2004

Show dates and locations listed below are, in a couple of cases, tentative. Please recheck this web site prior to attending any show listed below. Also check the show listings in "Linn's Stamp News" or the "APS Journal" .

Oct. 16-17 SHOW HAS BEEN CANCELLED The National Guard will be using the Armory. METROPEX Stamp Show, East St. Paul Armory, 1530 Maryland Ave., East, St. Paul, Minnesota, Hours: 10-5 & 10-4 (Next show in the Twin Cities will by on November 27-28 at the Kelly Inn) I will be in attendance."

[LonesomeOne]

123. No one

Has said anything about the vehicles and equipment leaving or has seen the vehicles and equipment leaving apparently. They were there last weekend when my friend went through on his way home, and yesterday they were gone.

[seemslikeadream]

124. I'm a bit confused

are you saying your friend saw that they were gone because post 102 says:

This morning a friend of mine sent me the email with the information about the armory. Her friend is a truck driver that drives by the armory all the time. It is about an 80 acre site that normally contains trucks, tanks humvees, earth movers etc. When he drove by the armory today, almost all of the equipment is gone. He said that only about 2 acres of the site had equipment left on it. As he was driving toward Des Moines, he saw contractors in a convoy moving heavy military equipment - obviously from the Twin Cities facility.

My friend said that her friend is normally not the kind of guy to notice much - but this - he noticed and he told her something is up which is why I sent out the inquiry.

I'm not sure what to do now. If the people who are running the armory know that something is going to happen - such that they are moving the equipment, who do you call?

[LonesomeOne]

125. Once Again

He called me yesterday and told me something was funny. He drives past that armory at least twice a week. It is always full of military equipment and vehicles (80 acres worth of stuff). He took a week off to bring in his crops to feed his cattle over the winter. Yesterday when he left the Cities, he passed the Armory and all but 2 acres of stuff was gone. On his way South on I-35, he saw civilian contractors moving military comm trailers, tanks, and earth movers NORTH. When he hit I-80 heading west, he saw the same heading EAST toward the Quad Cities. No one in the Cities has said ANYTHING on the news or in the paper, or word of mouth scuttlebut about the equipment being moved from the Armory. It happened in a weeks time. That would be a MASSIVE amount of moving equipment, and someone should have been told something. Now, the guy who recieved the call from Vreeland said he got the call a few days ago. Before any of the equipment being gone was known about. It makes me very suspicious and worried. Why would you move the military equipment OUT all of a sudden?? You do NOT leave a major city basically defenseless, especially at this time, and with Dayton eaving DC because of a threat.

[LonesomeOne]

134. As a Just In Case

I would go to the drug store and purchase potassium iodine (it fills your thyroid up so radiation annot get there and that is the first to go in a radiation incident) for you and your kids. it is good to have on hand anyway as you have a nuclear plant nearby. But, just keep your eyes and ears open, and PAY ATTENTION to what is going on around you. I hope this is just coincidences, but better wary and safe than to blow it off and it be something.

[eyeswideoopen]

102. I sent out What's happening in Minneapolis email

This morning a friend of mine sent me the email with the information about the armory. Her friend is a truck driver that drives by the armory all the time. It is about an 80 acre site that normally contains trucks, tanks humvees, earth movers etc. When he drove by the armory today, almost all of the equipment is gone. He said that only about 2 acres of the site had equipment left on it. As he was driving toward Des Moines, he saw contractors in a convoy moving heavy military equipment - obviously from the Twin Cities facility.

My friend said that her friend is normally not the kind of guy to notice much - but this - he noticed and he told her something is up which is why I sent out the inquiry.

I'm not sure what to do now. If the people who are running the armory know that something is going to happen - such that they are moving the equipment, who do you call?

[ParanoidPat]

106. Not sure.....

.....but the info that was passed from Vreeland in jail was that 4 one megaton devices would be detonated "soon" in the Twin Cities area.

This could be just a setup to discredit the BBV people as the info from the jail and other corroborating info has been sent to several people associated with BBV. :shrug:

If not, at least we went public with what was passed on to us so the appropriate agencies can investigate the claims. :(

:wtf:

I feel like I'm trapped in a bad Tom Clancy novel. :crazy:

[RainDog]

107. THIS makes sense

If, as you say, BBV people were given this information, then, yes, it sounds like you all are being set up as "wild-eyed conspiracy nuts" to discredit you before the election and any challenges to the same that both sides are already anticipating.

My original "take" on Vreeland, considering that he said that Iraq was behind 9-11, was that he was a plant who was supposed to tie Iraq and 9-11 who also had real information to make the disinformation palpable.

This is just my speculation. But this is how this all makes sense to me based upon my existing biases.

Obviously, if I'm mistaken, we will all know about it very soon.

[harmonyguy]

108. Trapped in a bad Tom Clancy novel

No Kidding - plese check your PM.
HG

[ParanoidPat]

109. Already have.....

.....and responded. :(

I mean, :wtf:

[harmonyguy]

110. Check it again. nt

[ParanoidPat]

111. Check yours.

:(

[seventhson]

112. Who did Vreeland tell this to?

was it GB&C or emails or what?

This bit is news to me.

I have foprwarded the story to media types and need these details PLEASE

dumail me if you need to.

[ParanoidPat]

113. I hope you can understand the concept of "plausible Denyability"......

.....Let's just say the details are out. What happens from here on out will determine the veracity of the claims. I hope to hell that it's all just bullshit! :(

If not, there's a public record.

For the record, I don't really believe this but the allegation has been made. What was I supposed to do?

[seventhson]

126. Sure I do BUT - THIS IS IMPORTANT!!! If Vreeland made specific allegations

then those who investigate his claims need to know.

How can you have plausible deniability if YOU posted this.

If the source of the story is unwilling to repeat it publicly (which I fully understand) then there is no way to verify the veracity of the "claim" that Vreeland said it.

And it is further fear-mongering which helps Bush.

If there your position is that by refusing to name the source you have plausible deniability that it was said by someone, then that does not wash.

Frankly, the only one on this board who claims to have spoken directly with Vreeland EVER is GB&C - so it seems he must be the source.

There is nothing really plausible about denying that unless you or someone else spoke with Vreeland.

I have forwarded these threads to reporters covering the story in Detroit and Toronto (Google news links) so that they can investigate them.

But this claim is SO outrageous and SO specific that more is needed to help the proper folks investigate.

In other words, if you read the Toronto Star story, Vreeland is already claiming he wants to talk to government authorities and hopefully he has and he will tell them what he is supposed to have told CB&C.

If so we can all rest easy.

But if Vrereland spilled this story to DUers and then clammed up with the feds or law enforcement, his specific allegations to DUers need to be made public in my opinion.

THAT will make us all safer and less ill at ease.

Thanks.

I understand - but so far this story is too disturbing not to want to get all the facts out where they can bear the light of day.

If they have to be "off the record" then they should be sent to reporters covering the story. I have their contact info from Google.

[eyeswideoopen]

115. Remember Senator Dayton?

Minnesota Senator Dayton was one of the few members of Congress to really study and question 9-11 timeline.

Senator Dayton received a security briefing that said that there was a possibility of a terrorist attack in DC so he closed his offices and went home. He was the only senator to do so.

I'm wondering if he received an 'off the record' extra security briefing that caused him to do that so that he would be IN Minnesota for the big event - assuming there is a big event.

Of course this could all be a psy-ops operation to scare him, scare us and scare the public into voting for 4 more years of terror. In the following article, Ron Suskind is quoted as saying:

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=3822
'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'

Which coincides with what Thomas Barnett, insane military strategist in the Office of Force Transformation in this presentation. It is a must watch - several times if you really want understand what he is saying because he is brilliant at interweaving corporate market goals into military strategy and terminology.

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=Thomas+Barnett&image1.x=31&image1.y=8

Is the novel getting better?

[Jazzgirl]

116. Eyes, thanks for reminding us of Senator Dayton's office

closing in DC. I had forgotten all about that. I'm just getting back to watch this thread. I can see where a lot of this could wind up being considered "disinformation" to discredit people but at the same time, the quote from Ron Suskind's article is chilling. I remember when I read the article the other day I felt totally horrified at that paragraph. These guys are terrifying and must go.

[tlcandie]

117. Regarding Thomas Barnett...

The c-span link didn't provide anything for me, but got this book review from Karen Kwiatkowski..

http://www.antiwar.com/kwiatkowski/?articleid=2762

<snip>
Dr. Thomas Barnett, Harvard trained political scientist and self-described Pentagon futurist, has a bone to pick with the Bush administration. America's invasion of Iraq was a great achievement, but the President hasn't yet shared with Americans why we are staying there, for … well, forever. Barnett's latest book, The Pentagon's New Map, cheerfully explains that there is no exit strategy for Iraq or Afghanistan. He writes, "We are never leaving the Gap and we are never 'bringing the boys home.' There is no exiting the Gap, only shrinking the Gap … and we better stop kidding ourselves about 'exit strategies.'"
<snip>

<snip>
Using market, computing and advertising idiom, Barnett explains that there are two key roles that United States must play in the 21st century – that of rule-setting Leviathan and that of System Administrator. His book lays out how the Department of Defense must bifurcate accordingly into two robust capabilities: a killer app that is speedy, stealthy, powerful, young, male, deadly and used overseas only, and its mild mannered opposite, a policing-oriented force that uses military and civilian law, works at home and abroad and is not bound by posse comitatus restrictions. The Leviathan force and the System Administrator force are the main ways of getting America's greatest export commodity – security – out to the "customer."
<snip>

<snip>
Barnett points out that the American social political reorientation has already started, and that our new organizing construct rests on two key documents: The PATRIOT Act of 2002 and the 2002 National Security Strategy. The PATRIOT Act might be described as a legislative assault on the Constitution, approved sight unseen by the Congress. The National Security Strategy introduced the radical concept of pre-emptive executive war. The sleeping legislative and aggressive executive are complemented by a silent judiciary which, in an interesting way, is represented by what Barnett calls a "real answer man," Attorney General John Ashcroft. An "answer man" is a "new source of authority within the government … armed with extraordinary legal powers, which might strike many citizens as threatening their basic civil rights." The idea here is that in a post 9-11 environment, we needed new domestic rule-sets. Barnett shares his observations because he had predicted this exact scenario long before 9-11. Perhaps he picked up this idea after studying Germany in the 1930s.
<snip>

[tlcandie]

119. In the above linked article ..

Kwiatkowski mentions this word... Gotterdammerung (I believe towards the end of the article)....and isn't familiar with it. The following is the best I could do atm..

http://www.lyricopera.org/gotterdammerung.asp

<snip>
All that has gone before is resolved -- and the fates of man and the gods are fulfilled.
<snip>

<snip>
Rapture, bitter betrayal, and finally redemption through all-consuming love - all majestically illuminated through music of unparalleled tragic grandeur in the apocalyptic conclusion of the most monumental operatic achievement ever conceived.
<snip>


Ahhh here we go.....

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/G%F6tterd%E4mmerung

<snip>
Ragnarok does not mean "Twilight of the Gods"; that phrase is the translation of Götterdämmerung, which, in turn, is a German mistranslation of the word Ragnarok. In Norse mythology, Ragnarok ( "fate of the gods") is the battle at the end of the world. It will be waged between the gods (the Aesir, led by Odin) and the evils (the fire giants, the Jotuns and various monsters, led by Loki). Not only will the gods, giants, and monsters perish in this apocalyptic conflagration, but almost everything in the universe will be torn asunder.
<snip>

[eyeswideoopen]

121. Thank you for sharing

:scared:

[DavidFL]

158. Gotterdammerung

is also the title of the fourth and last opera in Richard Wagner's Das Ring des Nibelung cycle. In the last scene of the final act, Brunnhilde, one of the Norse godesses, takes the ring, which possesses a curse, from her dead love Sigfreid's hand and tosses a torch on a funeral pyre built on the banks of the Rhine. She then mounts her horse and sacrifices herself by riding into the fire so that the curse may be cleansed from the ring and that a new world order of humankind will dawn from the old order of the gods.

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/g/go/gotterdammerung.html

http://www.music-with-ease.com/wagner-ring-nibelung.html

[eyeswideoopen]

120. Thomas Barnett

Odd that the link didn't work, I tested it and it worked. Anyway, here it is again. Just in case, the program was American Perspectives, 9/4/2004, searching on Thomas Barnett.


Military in the 21st Century

Barnett received 6 years of corporate indoctrination studying the Y2k problem as a national security threat and working with Cantor-Fitzgerald (brokerage firm in the WTC). It is obviously from listening to him that his mind has been so twisted by business disaster scenarios that he has confused the national security of the United States with the interests of Wall Street. He call the Chinese 'allegedly Communist' - then later says they are only about 30% Communist, 70% the Sopranos. That makes them ok to deal with (what is more corporate than that?).

Seriously, even if the link doesn't work for you, try to find the video on C-Span. IMHO it is one of the most important recording of U.S. foreign policy according to the corporate military that has been produced to date. I thought it was so important, that I transcribed the entire thing - over 30 pages.

People may try to say that Barnett is simply expressing his own views but that is not correct. I'm a C-Span and news junkie. I belong to a number of groups that share info. What Barnett is describing is the philosophy and the game plan by the fascist element in the DOD. Their plan has little to do with U.S. national security. It has everything to do with the corporate market based strategy for the creative destruction of the United States including spliting our military into a global force and a weaker U.S. military. He even goes so far as to imply that they can be self-supporting - billable days for security - a global protection racket.

[jimshoes]

122. We should remind these pricks

when they're in the defendants chair for war crimes about the reality they will face shortly. Then too,the reality they shall face is they will have a choice of a bullet through the head or the hangman's knot... or at least life in prison, the Abu Ghraib kind... not the country club kind.


'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'

[seventhson]

127. New Reports (Toronto Star) Reporters being vetted, Vreeland wants to

talk to government reps.

I posted the story here but it got locked (and I have protested in ATA forum)

This story is too interesting and important to shuffle off to oblivion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x928612

[seventhson]

128. Toronto Star article (interesting - read last paragraph)

I have sent this thread to the author of the article

Hopefully they will ask the right questions and we can relax a bit.

Here:

Fugitive nabbed after 2 years on run
Man claims to have foreseen 9/11

Has more than 22 aliases, police say

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename...


MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

He disappeared from a ransacked Toronto apartment two years ago after claiming he was an undercover American naval officer who predicted the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But that was just the latest twist in the bizarre story of Delmart Vreeland — a tale that goes back 10 years and winds its way through the United States and Canada.

Vreeland's whereabouts, however, are no longer a mystery. Officers with an Iowa sheriff's department surrounded his car Wednesday as he was driving an Interstate highway from Denver to Minneapolis. The use of a flagged Shell gas card alerted Franklin County authorities, Chief Deputy Ken Lubkeman said in an interview.

Vreeland's story played out for two years like a Hollywood script, and included the requisite dramatic court scene, when a judge allowed Vreeland to call the Pentagon in open court and an officer confirmed that Lieut. D. Vreeland was listed in its phone directory. Vreeland also claimed he knew that Canadian Embassy employee Marc Bastien was murdered before the official cause of death in 2000 was released, which stated Bastien had been poisoned. Vreeland told his Toronto lawyers, Rocco Galati and Paul Slansky, that he had had death threats. Vreeland has maintained for years that he is the victim of a conspiracy of government officials attempting to keep him quiet; but putting together pieces of his past has been difficult. Reached yesterday, Galati said he believes Vreeland is still working as an American agent.

Lubkeman said yesterday they're being cautious with the Vreeland case — taking measures that included having to verify a reporter's identity before giving an interview. "He has lots of stories to tell. He thinks himself very important and he wanted to make sure people in the government were contacted," Lubkeman said.

[tlcandie]

129. Well, something is up with him and he has connections...

You don't just disappear/vanish off the radar after all that rigamarol in Canada before 9-11 without connections. He has served no jail term or been found guilty of any crime they've said he has on his rap sheet except for the DUI he admits to.

And now he just pops his head up out of nowhere and again has himself arrested...intentionally to once again try to pre-empt yet another attack.

Whether it claims to be true or false...let's hope false...if I were in the twin cities area I would be taking some time off until it all blows over.

I've already told my husband who left today for Sacramento and won't be home until Saturday afternoon....that buses leave Sacramento all the time taking little old ladies to gamble in Vegas if he needs a ride out and they lock down the airports through this or whatever reason they can conjure up.

I'm not afraid...I'm not paranoid, but I'm saying better safe than sorry.

[seventhson]

130. It SEEMS authorities are ON this

but only time will tell.

The media seems to be on it too.

We can only HOPE that if there is any truth to it it will be prevented by the couage of GB&C and others here.

If false - I agree. Better safe than sorry.

I still think it could be a Rovian trick as well.

Who the hell knows

[RainDog]

131. here's something I'd like to know about

As Navy Intel, would Vreeland know anything about this? Was he in Russia? When? Is he familiar with this info or these people, without being prompted? Is this information actually true? --a question that is separate from questions about Vreeland.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1104.htm

In 1992, following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was considerable concern expressed in US intelligence circles about the whereabouts, and also the security of certain ex-Soviet military tactical atomic warheads. In the 1960s, the Soviet Union launched R&D to miniaturize and improve reliability of nuclear weapons. Development activities included strategic systems for the Navy; cruise missiles, aviation bombs and artillery projectiles .The model is based on unclassified data on the components in an atomic artillery shell, to see if such a system could be reassembled in a suitcase. Indeed, as it turns out, the physics package, neutron generators, batteries, arming mechanism and other essentials of a small atomic weapon can fit, just barely, in an attaché case. The result is a plutonium-fueled gun-type atomic weapon having a yield of one-to-ten kilotons, the same yield range attributed  in a 1998 US media interview by General Lebed to the Russian "nuclear suitcase" weapon."

The smallest possible bomb-like object would be a single critical mass of plutonium (or U-233) at maximum density under normal conditions. An unreflected spherical alpha-phase critical mass of Pu-239 weighs 10.5 kg and is 10.1 cm across.
A single critical mass cannot cause an explosion however since it does not cause fission multiplication,  somewhat more than a critical mass is required for that. But it does not take much more than a single critical mass to cause significant explosions. As little as 10% more (1.1 critical masses) can produce explosions of 10-20 tons. This low yield seems trivial compared to weapons with yields in the kilotons or megatons, but it is actually far more dangerous than conventional explosives of equivalent yield due to the intense radiation emitted. A 20 ton fission explosion, for example, produces a very dangerous 500 rem radiation exposure at 400 meters from burst point, and a 100% lethal 1350 rem exposure at 300 meters. In 1991 the US unilaterally withdrew its nuclear artillery shells from service, and Russia responded in kind in 1992. The US removed around 1,300 nuclear shells from Europe. The Russian Defense Ministry has stated officially through the offices of Lieutenant General Igor Valynkin, the head of the ministry’s Twelfth Main Directorate, which is responsible for the storage and security of nuclear weapons, attempted to reassure journalists about the safety of the Russian nuclear arsenal that absolutely all nuclear weapons in the Russian armed forces are currently in the custody of his directorate, which ensures their “state acceptance at the factory, storage in arsenals, servicing, and their transport to the troops.” Valynkin said that because of concerns about the “criminal situation” in Russia, at the beginning of the 1990s all Russian tactical nuclear weapons, including nuclear mines and artillery shells, were removed from the arsenals of individual military units and transferred to special storage sites under the control of the Twelfth Directorate. This step was taken in order to prevent terrorists from gaining access to the weapons, as the arsenals at individual units are much less secure than the central storage sites Referring directly to the issue of the “suitcase” bombs, Valynkin admitted that is technically possible to build a small low-yield nuclear warhead..

In 1992, James Atwood, the former Interarmco people and an Israeli Russian named  Yurenko (actually Schemiel  Gofshstein) formed a consortium in conjunction with James Critchfield, retired senior CIA specialist on oil matters in the Mideast  to obtain a number of these obsolete but still viable weapons. Both Critchfield and the Interarmco people had, at the behest of the CIA, supplied weapons to the rebels in Afghanistan during their protracted struggle with the Soviet Union. Critchfield worked with the Dalai Lama of Tibet in a guerrilla war against Communist China and headed a CIA task force during the Cuban missile crisis. He also ran regional agency operations when the two superpowers raced to secure satellites first in Eastern Europe, then in the Middle East. In the early 1960s, Critchfield recommended to the CIA that the United States support the Baath Party, which staged a 1963 coup against the Iraqi government that the CIA believed was falling under Soviet influence....

Utilizing Atwood’s STASI and ex-KGB contacts, they were able to obtain from bribed Russian military personnel, twenty of the atomic warheads. With Critchfield’s Mideast and Afghanistan connections, these warheads were sold to a Pakistani group for an estimated US $20 million in early 1993. “Yurenko” brokered the transfer of money via two banks in Pakistan to a Swiss bank.(Specific account information is known) Some of the money, $US 50,000 was deposited into a so-called “white account” (i.e., one that the SBA could release information on to any outside probers) and the balance into three so-called “black accounts” (i.e., accounts that were truly secret.)

[seemslikeadream]

133. RainDog maybe post the question here also

Given the Vreeland Thread : Link TV NOW has piece on nuclear terrorism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2533924

Can someone post a CLEAR explanation of the Vreeland threat?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=23423&mesg_id=23423

[RainDog]

136. I'll just leave it here

I do not understand, nor does it seem possible to know, what Vreeland's story is about, at least not for someone like me.

But I did post that link and those questions because, if, BIG IF, there is anything to his claims, then I thought that information might be pertinent.

At the same time, I do not want to contribute to paranoia and fear, so I hestitated to post the link at all. For all I know, that site is full of bull. The piece that came from is a mishmash of info, apparently taken from different sources and compiled without attention to tenses that make sense, and with commas left in when info was seemingly edited...not that I don't do that, but this is a web site that calls itself "news."

Maybe I'm missing information, but from what I read, there are a lot of leaps... connecting general information, such as what Sick said, and applying it specifically to Vreeland.

Accepting that he was listed as an employee of ONI, we do not know in what capacity, right? If he is the source of the confirmation, again, I reserve my doubts.

The two college station employees issue does not discount them as reputable, when it is known that students in the U.S. were able to prove someone on death row was innocent...

The way in which information is presented makes it harder to accept. I realize that people would freak out if they'd heard something like this, but the lack of critical skepticism toward this issue AS WELL AS OTHERS by some of the same people (I'm not pointing a finger at anyone, exactly) makes me question the information.

The cryptic messages between people, again, contributes to a climate of fear, which again makes it harder to use one's critical thinking to question the validity of any claims.

Lacking all sources of information in their original forms makes it impossible to know what to believe and what to dismiss.

And, as far as the other threads you linked to, while I can understand your impatience with people who are asking for a simplified explanation, rather than posting huge threads of links, it would be useful to reduce the information and to provide external links (when possible) and explanations.

Such a post could save lots of time wading through similar questions over and over again as well.

Easy for me to say...

[tlcandie]

138. For all the brainiacs...

I found this which has a nice list of things to investigate about Vreeland..

http://members.freespeech.org/ltvreeland/

EDIT: OH and here's a copy of the infamous Let one happen note



Altered navy records pdf...
http://members.freespeech.org/ltvreeland/courtdocs/exhibit%20o/exhibit_O.pdf

Russian document translated..
http://members.freespeech.org/ltvreeland/rdpage2.html

Judge Advocate General's Calls.. taped (Nice little message at the end of this one for those interested... and curious
http://members.freespeech.org/ltvreeland/images/KICKASSWAVE.wav

[RainDog]

139. This proves NOTHING

This site's discussion board is plastered with Bush/Cheney re-election stickers, the participants sound like Pat Robertson devotees to the idea of a "new world order" conspiracy that, strangely, (not) in no way holds Bush responsible for his actions.

The "Russian letter" reads like a joke. Are we supposed to believe this is true?

Funny how that "Russian" writes to his "comrade" like he's an American. Funny how that "Russian" sounds like Snidely Whiplash. Funny how that "Russian" confirms all the worst fears of the same people who were part of the red scare since the 1950s.

But what do I know. Maybe it's all true.

Or then again, maybe using fear to create an environment which is lethal to democracy has been used for decades, and especially has been used over the last four years, by the same same people those on the discussion board support.

[tlcandie]

141. I don't think I hit reply to you?

I posted it for all you people who want more more more more more more info...

If you like it fine. If you don't like it, fine again. Your choice. Never know might find a needle in a haystack somewhere if we open our eyes.

Funny, funny. Yup funny isn't it how sometimes truths are found in the middle of piles of crap.

One never knows. To each his/her own. :+

EDIT: If you check that Russian letter was written I believe by Saddam's son. I would have to look again though to be sure. Yes, Kuday Hussein I believe from other reports I've read. Go figure. :shrug:

[RainDog]

151. Oh excuse me, I thought this was a public forum.

I did not think you replied to me. You posted and I replied to your post. I believe that's how it's done on this forum.

Sorry if you don't like it that I would tend to discount the information on the site.

As I said repeatedly, I don't know if this information is true or not, but whatever the case, the information should be open to question.

[tlcandie]

156. You're excused...

:+

Discussion is great...attitudes aren't! :hi:

[Syd_]

145. Why this article?

This is my first time posting on DU. I hope I'm guessing about what to do here... uhhh at least close to what I want to accomplish.

I've been following the Vreeland story for a very long time also and I happen to believe him. Question: Why should the following story appear in Netscape/CNN news?

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/enhancedstory.jsp?maxphotos=4&phototerm=Qaeda&maxstories=4&storyterm=Qaeda&floc=FF-APO-PLS&idq=/ff/story/0001/20041024/0404738180.htm&photoid=20041021PRI06D



FBI Probes Leads on Election Terror Plot
By JENNIFER C. KERR

WASHINGTON (AP) - FBI investigators have made new arrests and developed leads that reinforce concerns that terrorists plan to strike around the presidential election, officials said Saturday, even though the CIA has discredited a person who told its agents of such a plot involving al-Qaida.

A senior FBI official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said some of the leads were culled from interviews with thousands of individuals that agents have conducted in the Muslim community.

The official would not be more specific, but said the FBI continues to have misgivings about possible al-Qaida intentions to launch an attack with the goal of affecting the elections.

Several people have been taken into custody recently on charges not related to terrorism, but officials are investigating whether they may have been involved in terror activities, said another law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity.


As for the person who warned the CIA, at least some of that individual's reporting no longer is seen as credible, said a U.S. intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity. The official stressed, however, that a number of other sources point to terrorist activity around the election season.


The official also said no concrete plot has been discovered so far with specific mention of time, place, method or identity of would-be attackers.


James Carafano, a homeland security expert with the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation, said there's little doubt that al-Qaida wants to send a message with an attack.


``I think they're probably less concerned with affecting the outcome of the election, whether Bush or Kerry wins, but it would be more prestigious, the capability to do something before the election and really undermine the confidence of the United States,'' he said.


Top government officials have warned since the spring about al-Qaida's desire to attack during the election with the hope of orchestrating something similar to the March commuter train bombings in Madrid. The bombings, which killed more than 190 people, were a factor in the ouster of Spain's former ruling party.


The FBI has partnered with American Muslims and others as part of what the agency describes as a prevention plan aimed at disrupting an attack. Thousands of agents from bureaus across the country are participating in the effort.


FBI agents have interviewed thousands of people considered possible sources of information as well as about 10,000 operators of self-storage facilities, which are considered likely places to hide bomb-making materials or other items that could be used in an attack.

[Syd_]

146. It's this part that I find odd... especially the word "discredited"

FBI investigators have made new arrests and developed leads that reinforce concerns that terrorists plan to strike around the presidential election, officials said Saturday, even though the CIA has discredited a person who told its agents of such a plot involving al-Qaida.

[Minstrel Boy]

148. Thanks Syd, that is interesting.

Whether or not it's Vreeland, it's interesting to note the CIA and FBI at odds. (Though of course, that's not particularly new. But in this context it could be noteworthy.)

BTW, according to DU rules, you should copy no more than four paragraphs of a copyrighted story.

And welcome!

[Syd_]

155. Thank you... I have a lot to learn about posting on DU

My apologies... I'll learn eventually. Thanks for the advice and patience.

[BeHereNow]

150. Welcome to DU Syd_

I share your reaction to that particular passage.
I saw the article when it hit YAHOO today and
thought to myself, "Now that is an odd coincidence;
Vreeland's reappearance and claims and then this
article..."
Also, the cowboy monkey king's comments
published today about our security being "up in the air"
All of this hitting the fan at once?
As an acquaintance always says, ask yourself this:
"In whose interest?"

The answer to that question, at this point, is rather formidable.
BHN

[seventhson]

142. Is there a transcription of this note. Impossible to read a lot of it.

I see sears tower ? chicago, world trade center, pentagon, white house, water supplies...

They will paint me crazy and call me a liar

Let one happen, stop all the rest

Dr. Haider?
---------------------------------------------------------
As important as this was I wish he had better handwriting

[tlcandie]

144. I hit VIEW and hit increase text till I could read it all

below it is a typed version of the note

[Garbo 2004]

147. Transcription on this page below the note

http://members.freespeech.org/ltvreeland/infamousnote.html

[tlcandie]

157. Sorry....

Thought I had provided that link .. my bad!! :dunce:

[NVMojo]

162. I've written notes to myself this sloppy

while on the phone and not letting someone know I was writing and thinking about other connections at the same time. In fact, later, I can't even figure out what some of what I wrote meant to me at the time. Sloppy writer, alright!!

[RainDog]

159. this issue from another angle

...and from another thread on economics...fwiw

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=57798

[seemslikeadream]

161. Thanks RainDog

since the advanced search is off till after the election a couple of threads that might be of interest

(Russian) Central Bank stops supporting dollar
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=926043

China Dumps Dollars for Oil and Gold
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2534275

UH OH !!!: Vreeland Evidentiary LINKS to Halliburton
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2535073&mesg_id=2535073

[seventhson]

170. Interesting - Reminds me of Y2K. I hope the "event" is as exciting as Y2K

was. In other words: Nothing happens, Bush loses, Kerry wins.

Game over for the BFEE

But remember that the plague of fascism can lie dormant for decades, centuries or even aeons.

[dqueue]

160. Doesn't add up...

The monitored credit card implies to me the public information is incomplete. Is the credit card important? How long was he on the lam? He's been described, by law enforcement, as a professional con man. What's he doing with credit cards in his name, or a known pseudonym? Had he sloppily assumed an identity, and/or used a stolen card?

[Ohio rules]

163. It does add up and here is proof..

from the article;

Shortly after the terrorist attacks, Vreeland apparently claimed .......


He was,is and will continue to be

a con man.

[Minstrel Boy]

165. that's not true

The warning was given to his lawyers in June 2001, who tried to get authorities to take interest. In August, after banging heads on walls, he wrote it down and sealed it, and was witnessed by his lawyers and prison officials. The note was removed from his possession and locked away until Sept 13, when it was opened and again witnessed.

I know this for a fact. It also has been admitted in court and well reported.

[sangh0]

177. What you said IS NOT TRUE AFAIK

You are repeating what Vreeland's lawyers CLAIMED as if it were fact. AFAIK, what was "admitted in court" is just a reference to Vreeland's claims, which he repeated in court.

It also has been admitted in court and well reported.

That's why you don't specify the "it" that was "admitted in court" or who admitted it.

Why does every claim that Vreeland make depend on the personal testimony of DUers concerning credibility. If these claims can be objectively demonstrated, why the reliance on personal testimony from DUers?

[Minstrel Boy]

182. And as far as I know,

you know shit.

I know the Toronto lawyers, and they're honorable and ungullible men. And I know they were working on Vreeland's warning pre-9/11. I don't expect you to take my word; I'm just giving you my word. And you're entitled to ignore, berate or ridicule my word. I wouldn't expect you to do anything else.

The "it" is the note, of course. And its having been written in August, 2001 is public record. Its sealing and opening was witnessed by prison officials, lawyers and the RCMP.

Also public record is that the Pentagon inadvertantly confirmed his rank and office in the same court. The prosecution did challenged that, arguing that Vreeland had hacked into the Pentagon database from prison, even though he didn't have access to a computer, and was said to be a "common con man."

But wait - how do you know the court exists???

In August, 2001, denied bail and still at Toronto's Don Jail, he scribbled a note and asked the jail guards to seal it. The note was opened Sept. 14, 2001, and on the paper was scribbled the "World Trade Center" (and other sites, including the Sears Tower, which weren't involved in the attacks three days earlier) and the phrase, "let one happen, stop the rest."
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1098568216092

In court, D.A. Hugins and lead prosecutor Kevin Wilson argued that not only were the notes bogus, but that Vreeland was no spy. On January 10, Vreeland defense attorney Slansky pulled a dramatic courtroom stunt. He called a Pentagon operator from a speakerphone in open court, and asked if there was a listing for a "Delmart Vreeland." He was given an office number and phone extension. The prosecution countered that Vreeland is a computer expert who likely discovered a way to hack into the Pentagon's network from jail, or had simply called the Pentagon from a jail phone and conned a military switchboard operation into assigning him an office and phone extension, though they offered no proof to support their argument. Discussing this that morning at the lodge, Vreeland was incredulous: "You can track an IP in a heartbeat. Why haven't I been prosecuted for this? That's so stupid."
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/092602_vreeland_gnn.html

BTW, the above link is to a copy of Sander Hicks's "Wildcard" investigative report on Vreeland I recommended to you.

[sangh0]

186. Propogandists make a habit of attacking those who question

like you just did

you know shit.

What I know isn't the issue here. The issue is what Vreeland knows, and what can be proven.

So was the note sealed in June 2001 or August 2001?

Also public record is that the Pentagon inadvertantly confirmed his rank and office in the same court. The prosecution did challenged that, arguing that Vreeland had hacked into the Pentagon database from prison, even though he didn't have access to a computer, and was said to be a "common con man."

Again you aren't telling the truth. According to your own words, the Pentagon reported they had a listing for Delmart Vreeland. They did NOT "confirm his rank and office"

This is why I am suspicious. People distort the facts (ie saying they had a listing is NOT confirmation of Vreeland rank and office) and when questions are asked, they produce insults.

[Minstrel Boy]

187. Sang0

you have done little more than attack those here who are, beyond a doubt, better informed than you on Vreeland matters, unless it's to make misrepresentations.

I have said before, Vreeland's warning was given to his lawyers in June. In August, after two months of trying to get the attention of authorities, it was committed to the infamous note, and sealed.

And the Pentagon switchboard identified him as Lieutenant Delamart Vreeland, and provided an office number. There was no confusion with a possible other Vreeland. The prosecution argued he must have hacked the Pentagon's database. Which do you find more persuasive?

But you have your agenda. Enjoy it.

[sangh0]

191. Why don't you answer the questions?

instead of engaging in personal attacks.

I have said before, Vreeland's warning was given to his lawyers in June. In August, after two months of trying to get the attention of authorities, it was committed to the infamous note, and sealed.

You claimed that the note had been sealed since it had been given to the prison gaurds. Why didn't you mention that at some later date, the envelope was given to Vreeland's lawyers, who THEN turned it over in court?

Was it because you wanted people to think it had been in the Canadian Govt's possession the whole time? Is it because you didn't want people to ask about the chain of possession?

And the Pentagon switchboard identified him as Lieutenant Delamart Vreelandb

The Pentagon never identified the man in the Canadian courtroom. The Pentagon only reported that they had a D Vreeland on their phone list. They did not confirm his office, his rank, or even his existence. The Pentagon did not identify the man in the courtroom.

SO why do you keep claiming the Pentagon did something more than say that they had a D Vreeland on their phone list?

The prosecution argued he must have hacked the Pentagon's database. Which do you find more persuasive?

Neither is persuasive. I don't have to choose between two unlikely choices. I can look for a third.

[sangh0]

188. What an interesting article!

Sometime around August 11 or 12, Vreeland wrote a set of notes. They listed a number of potential terrorist targets including the Sears Towers, World Trade Center, White House, and Pentagon. The notes also included the phrase, "Let one happen. Stop the rest!!!" He sealed them in an envelope and handed them to his Canadian jailers. His lawyers, Galati and Paul Slansky, another well-known former Canadian prosecutor, introduced the documents into court that October, arguing that Vreeland's life would be in danger if he was sent back to the U.S. The lawyers were harassed with dead cats hung on their porches, and smashed car windows. Galati has since bowed out of the case.

If Vreeland gave the sealed envelope to prison gaurds in June 2001, how did his lawyers come to possess the envelope? Obviously, the chain of possession, something of extreme importance in evaluating evidence, was broken. There's no assurance that the letter Vreeland wrote BEFORE 9/11 was not swapped out and replaced AFTER 9/11.

Most importantly, that article reveals NOTHING relevant to Vreeland's credibility. It doesn't mention any claim of Vreeland's that's been corroborated. As far as the info you have provided, NONE of it suggest ANY reason for believing Vreeland, and the article give NO reason for giving Hicks any credibility.

You said this article demonstrates why Hicks is credible. I don't see it. Could you explain what in this article indicates that Hicks is credible?

[seventhson]

169. seems he wanted to get caught

or maybe it was a stolen card

good question

I have no answer

Interstingly it seems at first that the authorities did not know who he was. So he was picked up cold (or NOT by feds, etc, I am guessing)

[tlcandie]

166. Seventhson.. need to put your deduction here on the letter..

What happened to it? It's now locked!!! :cry:

[seemslikeadream]

167. Not locked moved

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x23537

[tlcandie]

172. thanks...

getting very tired. Was searching the Red Mercury threads..

[Andy_Stephenson]

173. Why would a common Con Man have a passport?

[RainDog]

176. To travel?

Passports cost less than a hundred dollars for the postal and govt fees.

GBaC, I appreciate your concern and desire to help if this is a real story. You are certainly heroic and obviously love your fellow citizens. Thank you for your attempts to understand this situation.

However, I would like to encourage you to take a moment to step back from the fears that you have, based upon this situation.

Someone having a passport does not indicate anything about what they do or who they are, beyond knowing they can afford the fee, unless there are restrictions to passports that I am not aware of.

Why would Vreeland "allow" himself to get picked up over a bad credit card? Why not just present himself to a sheriff and ask to be arrested? This one thing makes the least sense of all to me.

If you want to claim he was tagged, then why the claim that he set himself up, which seems to have been made by him?

[Susang]

233. To better con people?

I have a passport as well. Doesn't mean I'm a spy or a con artist. I could, however, be crazy. Many people have made that claim.

[TNOE]

175. Kick for the Monday crowd

interesting.

[Beam Me Up]

180. Yes, all this is very interesting. For those new to the Vreeland story:

I've been following the Vreeland thing since 9/11 and wondered what had happened to him. It is VERY curious that he shows up 'just now'. Where the hell has he been? Why isn't he DEAD?

I was out of town over the weekend and am still trying to piece all the threads together to get some general idea what happened -- or what is going on -- and whether or not it 'means' anything.

Interesting that no one has supplied these links:

http://www.guerrillanews.com/wildcard/vreeland_one

http://www.sanderhicks.com/vreelandsuppfiles.html

[seemslikeadream]

181. beam_me_up look in 9/11room also

There's another thread there. The first link isn't working for me. Can you check it please, Thanks

[Minstrel Boy]

183. The "Wildcard" link on GNN isn't working.

I was trying to post from it all weekend. I think it's a very important piece of investigative journalism, and its also fascinating to see Hicks wrestle with the riddle of what Vreeland is.

Happily, I just found a copy of it on FTW: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/092602_vreeland_gnn.html

The Leo Wanta material is very compelling.

[ret5hd]

184. go to old.guerrillanews.com ...its on the front page there.

the guerrillanews site has had a major update, but if you got to old.guerrillanews.com , the old site is there.

[sangh0]

189. What is so important about "Wildcard"

I just read it, and there's nothing there. What do you think is so important about that piece?

[Minstrel Boy]

192. The more pressing question for me is,

why would I think is so important to waste more time on you?

[sangh0]

193. Changing your tune?

You just said that this article is so very important.

Now it's "not important"

You said this article explained why you think Hicks is credible.

Now, you can't say what's so credible.

Bottom line - You've been unable to provide ANY evidence that Vreeland is credible, and the few things you have posted have turned out to be distortions like "The Pentagon identified him in a Canadian court" when all they really did was confirm there was a listing for a Vreeland, but never said it was the Vreeland in the courtroom in Canada.

You claimed there was a "sealed envelope" that was opened in the courtroom, but you've neglected to mention that the envelope had not been secured between the time it was given to the prison gaurds and the time it was opened in court. It had been returned to DV's lawyers.

You also haven't mentioned Vreeland's obvious lies, like how he claimed he had never been "legally convicted" when he had been "legally convicted"

Not one fact MB. Not one.

What are you afraid of?

[Minstrel Boy]

194. What's not important to me

is your opinion.

My opinion hasn't changed, other than I'm through being goaded by you.

[sangh0]

195. You are not telling the truth

If you didn't care, then why did you respond to so many posts of mine?

Why won't you point out why that article makes you believe that Hicks is credible? In several posts, you've said this article is important, even though it contains NOTHING that indicates Hicks or Vreeland's credibility.

[Minstrel Boy]

196. "If you didn't care, then why did you respond to so many posts of mine?"

Because I was a fool.

[sangh0]

198. So you didn't care but posted anyway?

That's not a fool

That's a lie.

You only got tired of this once you got pressed for answers.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

203. I don't agree with personal insults

What is a fact and what is an opinion can be determined without resorting personal insults.

And for the record, I believe your personal knowledge as much as I believe GBnC's or Minstrel Boy's.

IOW, not much.

[Andy_Stephenson]

205. Thanks...

I think

[sangh0]

207. No need for thanks

particularly since you've been so unforthcoming about an upcoming nuclear attack.

I guess your love for Vreeland, and his life, counts for more than the lives of the millions of innocent people that could die in a nuclear attack.

Everyone has their priorities.

BTW, I noticed you have no comment about the CONSTRUCTION that going on at the armory you said was going to be the site of the nuclear attack. No comment?

[Andy_Stephenson]

210. Point one.

I never said there was an upcoming nuclear attack.

No love for Vreeland here. I merely related a phone call mde to me by him. As far as I know he very well could be full of shit.

If I was not concerned I would never have said a word about the phone call.

I have never been to Mnpls St Paul so I was going with what someone else in this thread said re Arden Hills. I now have confirmation of the site that has been vacated and it is the Armory near the Airport.

The person that imparted that information will be sending me an email soon and I will post it here.

[sangh0]

You contradict yourself

If I was not concerned I would never have said a word about the phone call.

So obviously, you think the warning may be accurate. If you didn't, you wouldn't be concerned about something you DON'T think is going to happen.

And at the same time, you deny making any claims.

I now have confirmation of the site that has been vacated and it is the Armory near the Airport.

And you kept quiet about it until I asked. Why is that?

[Andy_Stephenson]

214. Well

I just got the phone call about a half hour ago...and I have been away from the computer thats why.

So obviously, you think the warning may be accurate. If you didn't, you wouldn't be concerned about something you DON'T think is going to happen.

I don't know if it will happen or not. Just relating information. Just in case. Oh and By the way...I am concerned enough to send e-mail to and make follow up phone calls to the FBI and Secret Service.

[sangh0]

215. How convenient!! Just in time!!

Right after we find out it can't be the site you first suggested, out of the blue you get a phone call with different info.

Funny how an email (see #208) turned into a phone call.

I don't know if it will happen or not. Just relating information

OK. So was it an email or a phone call you received?

[sangh0]

235. AND HERE'S THE POST THAT CALLS IT A PHONE CALL

Sometimes it's an email, and sometimes it's a phone call.

[sangh0]

211. You contradict yourself

I never said there was an upcoming nuclear attack.

Funny how you don't want to talk about what you DID say. For example, you might want to explain what you believe and why. You might explain why anyone should care about this.

You can pretend you're not pushing a story about an impending nuclear attack, but there are more than a dozen threads with your name in them discussing just that, and I don't see you commenting on this.

If I say something, you show up to respond. But if people say that your acquaintance Vreeland is warning about a nuke attack, you remain silent.

Curious, no?

If I was not concerned I would never have said a word about the phone call.

So obviously, you think the warning may be accurate. If you didn't, you wouldn't be concerned about something you DON'T think is going to happen.

And at the same time, you deny making any claims.

I now have confirmation of the site that has been vacated and it is the Armory near the Airport.

And you kept quiet about it until I asked. Why is that?

[ParanoidPat]

241. Problems with reading comprehension.......

.....or do you just like to make shit up? Which is it? :shrug:

"particularly since you've been so unforthcoming about an upcoming nuclear attack."

That's an outright lie! Andy went public with everything he was told despite the damage it could cause his credibility with the BBV work he's doing. He did so in an 'abundance of caution' after receiving an unsolicited call from Vreeland. He has posted above that he knows nothing more than what has been made public on this thread.

Where do you get off with that "unforthcoming" crap.

But it gets worse! You said,

"I guess your love for Vreeland, and his life, counts for more than the lives of the millions of innocent people that could die in a nuclear attack."

What a load of absolute bull! You mind pointing out to the rest of us where exactly Andy professes any 'love' for Vreeland? Just the fact that he put the credibility of a couple of years worth of very important work on the line to make this info public disproves your assertion.

Once again your lack of comprehension is apparent in the last line of your post.

"BTW, I noticed you have no comment about the CONSTRUCTION that going on at the armory you said was going to be the site of the nuclear attack. No comment?"

Please point out where anyone on this thread (or elsewhere for that matter!) claimed that the armory was going to be the "site of the nuclear attack"? No comment? Are you like just making this shit up?

Now if you go up thread and check post #'s 123, 125 and 168 you will see who sent the original e-mail.

"This happened YESTERDAY and was seen by a friend on mine who is a truck driver and so damn "normal" it isn't even funny. He doesn't buy into conspiracy theories, junk emails with lies, etc. But this spooked him BADLY. And for something to give him the heebies, it has to be BAD.

LonesomeOne

Post # 102 is the person who forwarded the e-mail I eventually got.

eyeswideoopen (4 posts) Sat Oct-23-04 08:24 PM
Response to Original message

102. I sent out What's happening in Minneapolis email

This morning a friend of mine sent me the email with the information about the armory. Her friend is a truck driver that drives by the armory all the time. It is about an 80 acre site that normally contains trucks, tanks humvees, earth movers etc. When he drove by the armory today, almost all of the equipment is gone. He said that only about 2 acres of the site had equipment left on it. As he was driving toward Des Moines, he saw contractors in a convoy moving heavy military equipment - obviously from the Twin Cities facility.

My friend said that her friend is normally not the kind of guy to notice much - but this - he noticed and he told her something is up which is why I sent out the inquiry.

I'm not sure what to do now. If the people who are running the armory know that something is going to happen - such that they are moving the equipment, who do you call?

Vicky

If you check post # 97, seemslikeadream asked, "Can you or do you know anyone that can verify this?

Do you know where the armory is? Can you find out if anyone has seen these vehicles on the road?"

In post # 98 Andy responded, "Eric J in MN

I PM'd him with the email hopefully he will respond.

Andy readily admitted that he didn't know where exactly this facility is located and was attempting to pin that info down.

In post # 100 Bosso 63 was the person who mentioned Arden Hills.

Bosso 63 Sat Oct-23-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. I'm in the dark.

There are only a few military installations here that I know of. There is an Airlift Wing stationed at the MSP airport, and an ammunition facility in the northern suburbs (Arden Hills) that I believe is closed. So I'm not sure what "armory" is being discussed? As for military movements, convoys, etc. -- I have not seen anything, but as I said I have two small kids, so I don't get out much.

With all of this right in this thread, you still insist on putting words in other peoples mouths. What is your game? It's pretty apparent who said what to anyone who can read.

[sangh0]

242. You must be very confused

You telling about YESTERDAY's posts, while I'm talking about TODAY.

TODAY, GbBC first said he received a phone call from someone who was on the road and couldn't email him. Then, he changed it and said that he received an email.

[ParanoidPat]

209. LOL!

I think. :shrug:

Boy, you sure are bringing them out of the woodwork! :evilgrin:

Did you catch the 'sleeper' profile up above with 5 posts since joining in 2002? Must be the quiet type. I wonder what his/her other four posts were?

Hmmmm, you know you're on to something when.....

[sangh0]

219. But you can't refute his info

5 posts, a newbie, and he's doing a better job than you are.

I don't see any info in your post. Just a personal attack on another poster.

[ParanoidPat]

245. What personal attack?

It's called an observation! Fact: Poster had 5 posts to his credit since joining in 2002! Seems like a really quiet type to me compared to most DUers. :)

And you came out of the woodwork spouting bullshit and putting words in peoples mouthes! :evilgrin: FACT!

Why do you insist on mischaracterizing what Andy has clearly stated above? What's your game?

[sangh0]

251. So you didn't call a poster a "sleeper"

or was that meant to be flattery?

[KoKo]

267. ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

It's like arguing with a computer!

[sangh0]

268. Yep

Remember that for the next time

[dqueue]

185. Info regarding Twin Cities Armory???

Does anyone have any specific location info for the Twin Cities armory that has been allegedly emptied out via convoy? The name of the facility, or address would be helpful. There are no less than 63 National Guard facilities in Minnesota. Several that come up via searches do not appear to be 80 acres of contiguous area.

I appreciate any help on clarifying this information. Thanks.

[Andy_Stephenson]

190. Apparently it is the one

in Arden Hills MN.

[dqueue]

200. hmm...

The Arden Hills Armory that has been slated for redevelopment since 2002? St. Paul Pioneer Press reports on July 29, 2002, that Officials urge release of arsenal land.

It continues:
The largest tract of undeveloped land in Ramsey County -- the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant in Arden Hills -- could be in civilian hands within two years.

The announcement came Wednesday while Arden Hills officials, including Mayor Denny Probst and City Administrator Joe Lynch, were in Washington, D.C., to urge release of the valuable property that has attracted the attention of developers, local elected officials, the Minnesota Guard and open space advocates for decades.

A spokesman for Rep. Betty McCollum, whose district includes the 2,370-acre property purchased six decades ago by the Department of Defense, said a 113-acre chunk could be transferred to the county even sooner. That parcel, in the environmentally sensitive Rice Creek Corridor, would be preserved as open space. In addition, 276 acres will be licensed to the Minnesota National Guard for training.

So, there may be a reason for any movement of equipment.

[sangh0]

204. No response GBnC?

Thought not

[Andy_Stephenson]

208. As a matterof fact...

I recieved further information today. From the person who originally reported this.

It is not the Arden Hills Armory...which by the way I never said it was...Someone in Minneapolis did.

From what I now know...it ti the National Guard Armory near the Airpor...by the Hubert Humphry Terminal. So if someone wants to confirm this please do.

I am very curoius to know.

The person who sent me the e-mail is an Over the Road trucker and cannot post at the moment but will when he can.

[sangh0]

212. Well what a coincidence!!! And just in the nick of time!!!

So now it's the NGA near the Airport?

I believe you. Of course I do. I wouldn't mistrust you simply because you provide absolutely NO EVIDENCE for why you, or anyone else, thinks it's the NGA.

The person who sent me the e-mail is an Over the Road trucker and cannot post at the moment but will when he can

But of course he is unavailable. He can send emails, but he cant post. I understand perfectly.

[LonesomeOne]

217. Actually DEAR

If you had read the ENTIRE thread, you would have seen my original post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=924780&mesg_id=928573&page=

This is the information I had at the time. I have talked to my friend again today before I talked with GB&C today (and that was after he had posted, but he never said WHICH armory it was, and neither did I). It is the NG Armory at the MSP airport on the Hubert Humphrey terminal side. Now, if anyone happened to see this stuff go somewhere, please let us know WHERE it went.

As for the convoys, that was not equipment coming FROM the airport. We do not know WHERE it came from. Both were seen in IOWA, one heading north on I-35, the other heading east on I-80. Now, stop twisting words and facts and keep it straight. It might be that people's lives DEPEND on this information, ok?? Or, are you a government shill sent here to disrupt this forum?

[seemslikeadream]

221. Thanks so much for you post LonesomeOne

It would be nice if someone would stop twisting words.

Do you know about the ignore feature?

[Name removed]

223. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

228. Posters with no argument and no facts, call posters names

I have come across so mnay of them in the past 2 years.

I guess the govt is keeping an eye on you. You must be a very important and powerful threat.

[LonesomeOne]

232. I would

Like to know why MY posts keep being deleted and yet sangho's calling me a nasty swear name stays up? Is this democracy?? OH WAIT! It's Cheney's form isn't it??

[sangh0]

222. Actually

Your post has nothing to do with this.

It might be that people's lives DEPEND on this information, ok??

So with people lives DEPENDING on this, but you still make no effort to make your claims credible by providing ANY evidence to support what you've said.

There were convoys? Why should I believe that? Because YOU, some stranger on the Internet, says there were convoys?

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LonesomeOne]

229. Oh Look

The intelligence is showing. Abusive language being used. Isn't that a no no??

[sangh0]

231. Oh look, LO can't explain how GNbC's PHONE CALL turned into an EMAIL

GNbC said he received a PHONE CALL from an Over the Road trucker who couldn't post.

Now you're claiming it was an email

[sangh0]

216. You received an email??

Then why did you just describe it as "a phone call" in another post?

Having trouble remembering what you posted?

[LonesomeOne]

218. Actually

He did receive an email from me. Excuse the heck out of him for posting a he instead of a she. I am sure you have never left a letter out a word before, have you?

[sangh0]

224. He said he JUST received it

then a few minutes later he said he received a phone call.

And your claim is not believable until you provide something to show that it's true.

FUnny how when one gets cornered, they disappear and others pop up to defend them

How do you know that the email GBnC mentioned was yours?

[sangh0]

230. You said YOU sent GBnC the email, but GBnC called it a PHONE CALL

GBnC said the PHONE CALL came from an "Over the Road trucker" who couldn't post because he was on the road.

So how did the PHONE CALL from a trucker turn into an EMAIL from you?

[Andy_Stephenson]

220. Sorry I made a mistake in the last sentence.

"I recieved further information today. From the person who originally

It is not the Arden Hills Armory...which by the way I never said it was...Someone in Minneapolis did.

From what I now know...it ti the National Guard Armory near the Airpor...by the Hubert Humphry Terminal. So if someone wants to confirm this please do.

I am very curoius to know.

The person who sent me the e-mail is an Over the Road trucker and cannot post at the moment but will when he can."



Pardon me...last sentence should read...

The person that originally reported this is an Over the Road trucker and cannot post at the moment but will when he can. But, his friend has already responded in this thread above.


Was typing on auto pilot.

[sangh0]

226. Why did you say a PHONE CALL?

Funny how the info changes constantly, but is credible anyway.

The person that originally reported this is an Over the Road trucker and cannot post at the moment but will when he can. But, his friend has already responded in this thread above.

How odd. The "friend" is claiming that the email was HERS, and not from some Over the Road trucker.

And the original report was supposedly a "phone call", and an email was to follow because the original report came from an "Over the Road trucker" who can't post now.

Now, that somehow turned into an email with nothing following it. How did the "Over the Road trucker" send you this email and why is another poster claiming that SHE sent it, and not the Over the Road trucker? And if it wasn't a trucker, then why did you mention a trucker?

[dqueue]

236. your argumentation...

Sangh0, your argumentation has fallen apart. You're appearing more and more troll-like.

Personally, I believe this information warrants attention, beyond the grammatical nitpicking. I, myself, approach with curiosity due to the coincidance of the Vreeland story. I heard of him independently approximately one year ago. I understand there are many who claim to wholly debunk him. I recognize there are many who claim to partially validate him. The sum total of the jailhouse note is odd to me. The Pentagon phonecall is curious in my mind. I find the information available is incomplete.

Insofar as the Arden Hills "distortion"... there was no distortion. No specific armory was initially mentioned. Convoys were mentioned. Let's see if there's any information there, in the convoys. BTW, the 2002 article regarding Arden Hills has not been followed up; thus, I do not know if there's actually and acreage changing hands.

With your incessant needling, you detract from the point that: this warrants attention. There's enough, "Hmm..." around to take a breath and do some legwork. That's all. I hope this is all a bunch of bull. However, "What if...?" ???

Please take the ridiculousness to PM. I intend to post as I glean any information on the scant available tidbits, for AND against. If I've wasted my time in doing said research, asking questions, browsing the web... so be it, for I've wasted time doing more inane things...

[sangh0]

244. Another one who claims this "warrants attention" but can't say why

Why does this warrant attention? None of Vreeland's claims have ever been corroborated?

The sum total of the jailhouse note is odd to me.

Theonly thing odd about the note is how none of the people pushing this story mention that the "sealed note" was in the possession of Vreeland's lawyers, who could have replaced it with another "sealed note"

The people pushing this story ALWAYS mention that Vreeland gave the "sealed envelope" to the Canadian prison gaurds, but they NEVER mention that the "sealed envelope" was brought into court by Vreeland's lawyers.

Why don't they EVER mention that? Do you think they have a tendency to forget details? I don't, yet this detail is ALWAYS left out.

The Pentagon phonecall is curious in my mind

And what's curious about that? That there's more than one person with that name? It happens all the time.

And basically, that's the SUM TOTAL of the evidence, ALL of which is extremely questionable.

Insofar as the Arden Hills "distortion"... there was no distortion. No specific armory was initially mentioned. Convoys were mentioned. Let's see if there's any information there, in the convoys. BTW, the 2002 article regarding Arden Hills has not been followed up; thus, I do not know if there's actually and acreage changing hands.

Then you ought read what I wrote. The "distortion" is that GBnC first said he received a phone call, from someone who was on the road and so couldn't post, with info that it wasn't Arden Hills (coincidentally, this news was posted soon after Arden Hills was ruled out by another poster) and then changed his story and said he received an email.

How can someone who is on the road and unable to post send an email?

There's enough, "Hmm..." around to take a breath and do some legwork

Like what? Both the "sealed letter" and the Pentagon "phone call" are very slender reeds.

Please take the ridiculousness to PM. I intend to post as I glean any information on the scant available tidbits, for AND against. If I've wasted my time in doing said research, asking questions, browsing the web... so be it, for I've wasted time doing more inane things...

I'll post wherever and whenever I please, but I invite you to take your own advice whenever you may wish to.

[Bosso 63]

248. National Guard possibly shipping out to Iraq

"From what I now know...it is the National Guard Armory near the Airport...by the Hubert Humphrey Terminal. So if someone wants to confirm this please do."

A co-worker of my wife dates a former MN National Guardsman, who told her that all of his local friends in the Guard are preparing to ship out to Iraq in the next week or so. I don't know if they're stationed at this same armory (near the airport), but it could be a possible explanation for the activity.

[sangh0]

252. Time for a new email/phone-call, GBnC

Maybe you (whoops, I mean "a friend") can find another armory in the area

[sangh0]

253. GBnC, don't you think it's a really BAD idea

to name the places when the truth is, you don't have a clue?

[Love Bug]

262. I live 6 blocks north of the airport property

also near the ANG property. I haven't seen anything, but I can tell you C130s go in and out all the time, as well as troops coming/going to Iraq and other places. I don't know if anything unusual is going on here, nor have I seen an unusual number of white vans or any military vehicles at all. However, I'm at work during the day some 13 miles away, so I can't say for sure if there is any unusual movement of equipment lately.

It makes sense to me if the Guard is planning to ship out that all of their stuff would go too.

[sangh0]

264. The idea that an armory is involved is ridiculous

If you read through this thread, you'll see that the basis for this belief is a report from a DUer that she someone she knows saw a lot of military trucks on the highway.

Lots of military trucks = plot to nuke the Twin Cities.

That's it.

[ParanoidPat]

269. Lots of military trucks = plot to nuke the Twin Cities???

Boy or you off! Try reading the thread. :evilgrin:

[seg4527]

197. Twin Cities

My girlfriend lives in St. Paul, so this makes me kind of nervous. I'll be watching this thread, in case there are any updates about the Twin Cities.

[Lucypher]

202. A plausible reason for evacuating a military base

From:

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/3758727.htm?1c

Officials urge release of arsenal land

BY CYNTHIA BOYD

PIONEER PRESS

Published on 07/18/2002

ARDEN HILLS - The largest tract of undeveloped land in Ramsey County -- the Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant in Arden Hills -- could be in civilian hands within two years.

The announcement came Wednesday while Arden Hills officials, including Mayor Denny Probst and City Administrator Joe Lynch, were in Washington, D.C., to urge release of the valuable property that has attracted the attention of developers, local elected officials, the Minnesota Guard and open space advocates for decades.

A spokesman for Rep. Betty McCollum, whose district includes the 2,370-acre property purchased six decades ago by the Department of Defense, said a 113-acre chunk could be transferred to the county even sooner. That parcel, in the environmentally sensitive Rice Creek Corridor, would be preserved as open space. In addition, 276 acres will be licensed to the Minnesota National Guard for training.

...

So it is now two years since this article was written -- and based on the time frame of the Army surplussing the land -- End of Octoberish is just about right for them to move out -- So maybe they are just appeasing the locals?

[ParanoidPat]

213. Wrong place!

Sorry.

[Tight_rope]

238. You know something we don't....Please Do Tell!

[Minstrel Boy]

239. it's mentioned above

by GBnC that the armory is close to the Hubert Humphrey terminal of the airport.

[Tight_rope]

240. ok thanks!

[peacetalksforall]

237. Sang Ho

or sangh0.

People here are dealing with speculation and fuzzy clues ONLY. It is obvious that people are trying to put something together to the best of their ability.

You appear to want very fuzzy information to be hard-eye crystal-sharp. Or in other words - your are intimidating over indefinite circumstances which can only be interpreted (by me) as instructions to go away and stop talking about this. That's the way I interpret your contribution to this thread and several others.

Your demands are boring, inappropriate, and perhaps transparent.

[seg4527]

246. GBnC

Please check your inbox, if you don't mind.

[sangh0]

247. That's "the best of their ability"???

I doubt it.

You appear to want very fuzzy information to be hard-eye crystal-sharp.

No, I want to know what credible evidence is available that suggests:

1) Vreeland actually made this warning
2) GBnC's claims are truthful
3) Vreeland deserves any credibility

Please note I don't say that Vreeland is NOT credible. I just haven't seen ANY evidence that indicates he is.

I believe that Joe Wilson, and his wife Valerie Plame are who they say they are. I have evidence that suggests their credibility.

I have none of that for Vreeland.

I believe that bush* Let It Happen On Purpose, and maybe Made It Happen On Purpose, because I have credible evidence indicating that this is so.

You have a chance to gain a believer. All you have to do is show me the evidence for this threat. So far, all I've gotten are personal testimonies from strangers on the Internet, but no hard evidence.

[peacetalksforall]

258. I don't think anyone was talking about Vreeland prior to Friday

when it was reported that he was arrested. Some said they thought he was probably dead. No one has claimed that he can be believed. One person reported that he or someone he knew was in contact with him and he said or suggested that there was something in store for the 'twin cities' around Halloween (with earlier dates also being stated). So, this guy is traveling around undetected until arrested - about 11 days before the election in which we find ourselves exposed to 'reality' as devined by the right wing - where right wing networks rave about the Bush admin that has kept us terrorist free since 9-11 while at the same time Ashcroft and Cheney tell us (nearly promise us that there will be attacks and where Cheney is pushing nuclear (if Kerry wins). Coupled with the frequent reference to possible targets in the U.S. being the Mall of America - which started up right after 9-ll (in addition to bridges, nuclear plants, and water sources) and whose ownership or insurance or something is linked to the same person or corporation that owned the WTC. Then, someone relates a distinct change at an armory and another reports convoys.

It appears you're gig is with the person who reported some communication with this guy. No one is claiming much.

These threads started on Friday and there are only links to attempts to determine if the guy is saying anything credible or can be regarded as credible. If you haven't read them all, here are the links. Even the comments of Ruppert seem to doubt the credibility of this guy.

But who would have believed the young kids in Brooklyn a week before 9-11 who said the towers were going to disappear the following week, if true.

Most posters in these threads were trying to 'contribute' what they knew. Your demands seem to imply that you KNOW better.

Discussion Board
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Discussion Board
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Discussion Board
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[sangh0]

260. I'm not sure why that's relevant

I don't see the relevance of the Friday comments

No one has claimed that he can be believed

Actually several are saying that he CAN be believed, but they won't say that they DO believe him and they won't say why they think he CAN be believed.

There's a guy on my corner who says bush* is going to kill him. Why should I believe him? Why should I be concerned at all, except maybe for his sanity?

No one in this thread is concerned with the guy on my corner, but they are concerned by this. Concerned enough to start more than a dozen threads. Is it because they think Vreeland is just as credible as the guy on my corner?

I doubt it. People don't start a dozen threads over a few days and then get angry when people ask questions about it.

It appears you're gig is with the person who reported some communication with this guy. No one is claiming much

Several posters have claimed to have information about this attack. BeHereNow, seventhson, and GBnC most prominently. They are posting in this thread.

Then, someone relates a distinct change at an armory and another reports convoys.

No, someone reported seeing a military convoy on the highway and posters here just assumed that it came from a particular armory. It's an indication of how posters in this thread have trouble distinguishing fact from supposition. They had very little reason to think it was any specific armory or base, but it was enough for them.

Just as warning from a DUer (not from Vreeland. Theres has been absolutely no confirmation that Vreeland has EVER said anything about an attack just before the 2004 election) has convinced posters that Vreeland has issued a warning, a convoy on the highway has them convinced that they came from a specific armory.

Most posters in these threads were trying to 'contribute' what they knew. Your demands seem to imply that you KNOW better.

Then you misunderstand me. I've been here for years, and I know the posters. I KNOW that they KNOW better, but they're doing it anyway. It's not the first time this has happened on DU. GBnC and seventhson were close to being permanently banned.

[ParanoidPat]

256. boring, inappropriate, and perhaps transparent

Thanks, I thought it was just me. :crazy:

[sangh0]

261. At least h_c acknowledges the shakiness of the info

You do not. For some reason, you think it's possible that GBnC received both an email AND a phone call from a trucker on the road.

So who said that there might be an attack? I bet you don't even realize who said that?

[lovuian]

243. Hypothetical Question here???

Ok Say a major disaster such as a Earthquake or like 9/11 happens before the election involving a state and they can't possibly conduct the election. Now in New York the elections were postponed until after a certain time.

So can we conduct a major election with out a state's election. Wouldn't that throw off the electoral college.

and If we lost the Democratic Candidates like which happened in WellStone and Carnahan...right before the election what would happen Bush runs unopposed!!!

Just wondering???

[sangh0]

249. Answers

1) I imagine a national emergency will be called, with elections postponed, but AFAIK, there is no official and formal procedure for what will be done. IOW, we're in deep shit.

2) Yes, if we held an election without a state or two, it would throw off the EC. It would probably be unconstitutional too.

3) If the Dem candidate were to die, he would still be on the ballot, like Mel Carnahan in 2000. The Dem party would elect someone to "fill his shoes", so to speak

[lovuian]

254. Thanks Sangho!!!

I was wondering about that...
Would the election continue even if a state would not be able to do an election???

What do you think??? or would they continue the election even though it was unconstitutional

[sangh0]

255. There are a couple of alternative, as I see it

1) The most likely IMO, since this is the bush* admin, is that they will cancel/postpone the election.

2) They could say that the event, whatever it is, affects the D's in that state as much as R's, and not cancel the election there. They'll just count the votes of whomever could make it to the polls and assign the EC votes of that state to whomever gets the most votes.

3) They will postpone all the elections to an appropriate time.

[ParanoidPat]

259. Here's some factual information......

.....From BBC News. :evilgrin:

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3885663.stm

US 'may delay vote if attacked'

The Bush administration is reported to be investigating the possibility of postponing the presidential election in the event of a terror attack.

<Snip>

Mr Soaries noted that while New York's board of elections suspended primary elections on 11 September 2001, "the federal government has no agency that has the statutory authority to cancel and reschedule a federal election."

Homeland Security Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse told Newsweek, "We are reviewing the issue to determine what steps need to be taken to secure the election."

Republican Representative Christopher Cox, who chairs the House Homeland Security Committee, told CNN that it was prudent to prepare for a postponement.

"These are doomsday scenarios. We don't have any intelligence to suggest that it is going to happen, but we're preparing for all of these contingencies now."

<More>

Postponing Federal elections would require a Constitutional amendment. :)

[sangh0]

263. Not the entire story

As things stand now, that is, as the govt is organized now, the Feds have no power to postpone the elections. But once martial law, or a national emergency is called, it can assume powers it normally cannot, and as a political matter, the judicial branch does not overrule the executive branch in the middle of a crisis.

And then there's the fact that the current judiciary is led by a SCOTUS that is fiercly partisan, and will not trouble bush*.

So yes, if we went by every jot and dot of the law, there is no chance of postponing the elections. But I remember the last election.

[H2O Man]

266. In theory, yes ....

It would take an amendment to outline an advanced plan to postpone elections. But as we have seen, the Bush/neocon machine has compromised the constitution in the past, with the cooperation of 5 of the members of the US Supreme Court.

The question was what if something totally unplanned occured which made it impossible for one or more states to conduct elections. The truth is that we can only speculate, and obviously hope this situation does not occure.

[lovuian]

270. Thank You everybody for your great answers on my Question

Obviously Bush has asked this same question

???

I hope this never ever occurs!!!

[lovuian]

257. Seems Kerry will not attend 26th Minnieapolis Just Edwards

Get your complimentary ticket(s) to the Fresh Start for America Rally with John Edwards in Minneapolis

Join our campaign today! Fill out the form below to print out your complimentary ticket(s).

What: Fresh Start for America Rally with John Edwards in Minneapolis
When: Tuesday, October 26
Gates open at 8:00 a.m.
Where: University of Minnesota Sports Pavilion
1925 University Avenue S.E.
Minneapolis, MN

Interesting Huh!!! Glad to see they split up!!!

[tlcandie]

265. Kerry will be down below in Rochester(?)

the 27th... 26th is Mr. and Mrs. Edwards in Minneapolis.

[lovuian]

271. On October 27th Hunters Moon is Full Lunar Eclipse

Thought this was Interesting astrological observation



http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/13oct_lunareclipse.htm

Its called the Blood Moon!!!

[Moderator]

272. Locking--too many personal attacks