Low on options, Senate Democrats realizing there's no easy way home

[Nottingham]

Low on options, Senate Democrats realizing there's no easy way home
By R.G. RATCLIFFE
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau
RESOURCES
GRAPHIC:
• Poll results
THE MAPS
• View maps:
-Click on PLANCO1151 for the current congressional map.
-Click on "All Other Redistricting Plans," then on PLAN O1268C for the version passed by the House twice.
(Requires IE 5.5 or later).

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HEAR IT NOW
Audio: Lawmakers comment at redistricting debate in Houston 7/2:
• U.S. Rep. Chris Bell, D-Houston
• U.S. Rep. Nick Lampson, D-Beaumont
• State Rep. Rick Noriega, D-Houston
Requires the free RealPlayer.

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TEXAS FACTS
• Texas population, 2000 Census: 20,851,820
• Total congressional districts in Texas: 32
• Ideal population per district: 651,619
• Existing partisan breakdown: 17 Democrats, 15 Republicans. GOP wants redistricting to create a Republican majority in the delegation.

AUSTIN -- The Albuquerque Democrats might as well learn the Ballad of the Alamo, because no reinforcements are coming and they're running out of ammunition.

Sen. Leticia Van de Putte of San Antonio, Democratic Caucus chair, completed the picture last week by drawing a figurative line in the sand to keep Sen. John Whitmire of Houston inside the senators' out-of-state fortress.

"We work on consensus, no matter what you've heard," said Sen. Mario Gallegos, D-Houston. "Even Travis and Bowie had a big old fight at the Alamo."

If even one of the 11 boycotting senators returned to Texas and could be forced to the Capitol with the Senate in session, the state's Republican leadership would have a Senate quorum and the votes they need to pass a GOP congressional redistricting plan. The Democrats fled to New Mexico July 28 to stop the legislation.

With almost all hope gone....more

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2076161

Looks like they are staying out till After october at least!

:bounce:

[madfloridian]

1. Here is their website.

I have talked to and emailed a couple of them.
http://www.texas11.org/

I honestly do not believe most realize how serious this all is.

They could use some help. There are updates on what is going on at the website. This is a takeover attempt, just like in California.

I remember when this website discussed things like this, and helped out. Now it seems most of the time is spent trying to discredit someone else's candidate.

I know this has been discussed here, and I know some have donated.
They appreciate the notes from people.

[Sagatious8]

3. Is there an email addy for them?

To show our support.

Your link doesn't provide an email address for them. Thanks.

[madfloridian]

4. Yes, at the bottom where it says "email us"

:hi:

Let your mouse hover.

[w4rma]

2. I have *massive* amounts of respect for these Democratic Senators (n/t)

[Selwynn]

5. I have ZERO respect for these democratic senators

Sometimes being "right" is not the same thing as doing the right thing. In the eyes of most of the public these senators look like a joke; they look self-righteous, arrogant and as though they feel they are above the system. I understand that the deck is stacked agains them in texas and I don't care.

You think this helps any democrat in the future trying to get elected anywhere in texas? You're wrong. You think this helps democrats anywhere on the national level? It doesn't, in fact its a pretty huge expendature of political capital, it makes democrats look petty, and embarassing, and it makes it look like we're the party of political manipulation, which exactly what we don't want. I'm sorry that republicans dominate the state of Texas, but guess what - I come from Idaho, so I know how it goes. And I'll tell you right now, if the three Democrats in our state legislature ever pulled a move like this (not like they could on their own, but still) I would vote for their opponents in the next election.

When something happens that you don't like, you don't take the system and the process hostage becuase you don't like it. And I'm sorry, but seeing as how this whole issue has to do with re-districting, it makes me even less sympathetic. Basically the bottom line is, redistricting or no, that state elects Republicans - the people choose majority republicans, they want to be represented by majority Rebulicans, and guess what - they should have that right. If the state of Texas elects nothing but Republicans to every office of state government, that's their right, even though we should force them to leave the Union if that happened. :)

So a bunch of democrats in the minority got pissed becuase a majority controled legislature planed a redistrict scenario which favored republicans even more. That's unfortunate, not its not worth looking like idiots over, and I believe on the national scene, that's exactly what it looks like. And you know how I know at least some people agree with me - because they've been left on their own, hung out to try, with little to no support from the democratic party at the national level.

Work hard, fight hard, but when you lose, have some fucking dignity.

[Tansy_Gold]

6. "Work hard, fight hard, but when you lose, have some fucking dignity. "

If you really believed this and were willing to apply it to the Texas dems, you ought to be just as willing to apply it to the Texas repubs.

The Democrats didn't lose; they're still fighting.

Sheesh.

[GAspnes]

7. politics are rough-and-tumble, no doubt about it

you'll notice the Republicans didn't lose the PR battle after sending hired thugs to terrify the vote re-counters in Florida, or coerce the Supreme Court to walk all over states' rights and void the re-count.

The Democrats noticed that too. Some Dems (the Texas lege 11 being some of them) have realized that the battle is not to the best-behaved .... it goes to the meanest, toughest, most determined SOB.

I applaud their use of legal means (as opposed to illegal ones) to block, harass and delay the illegitimate re-districting process. I wish I had their guts.

[mrsteve]

8. Hypocrisy, hypocrisy, thy name is Republican

"When something happens that you don't like, you don't take the system and the process hostage becuase you don't like it."

That's the whole point. Traditionally, redistricting was done once every 10 years, after the census. IIRC, the Texas redistricting was done in 92 based on a judge's order because the the Texas state D and R's could not reach a consensus.

That's the normal process. That's the way things are supposed to work. Perhaps it's not legally codified in Texas, but tradition says redistincting occurs once every ten years. That way, you don't end up wipsawing back and forth between new legislative maps every time the state legislature changes control from one party to another.

But apparently the Republican's can't stomach things the way they are, because now they want to change the rules, since they have a legislative majority. And Republican's are taking the process hostage by having a Republican governer call special sessions until their map gets passed, even when the public does not want a new map drawn, and other important issues (like the state budget) are ignored in favor of this naked power grab.

This Republican behavior is "self-righteous, arrogant and"..."they feel they are above the system". The Democrats are standing on principle - in no way "petty" or "embarrassing."

And that makes the Democrats here look "right" to me. And the Republicans look like the very bad joke.

[UpInArms]

9. so you do seem to buy into the Rovian bullshit

don't you?

here's a Texas opinion for you -

http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/082003/opi_tellgov.shtml

Most of us have taught our children to stand up to the schoolyard bully as the only way to thwart his arrogant behavior. We have to be thankful that our senators learned that lesson well.

[madfloridian]

11. Aren't the Democrats in a slight majority?

I thought so. That would toss your arrogant theory out the window.

Do you have a view on the Republicans just changing the 2/3 law?

Is that ok?

[sandlapper]

15. "Aren't the Democrats in a slight majority?"

No, madfloridian, they aren't. The current Tx State Senate is 21 Repugs/11 Democrats. The Tx State Constitution requires a 2/3 attendance to establish a quorum to conduct business. 2/3rds of 32 is 21+, therefore all 11 of the D's have to stay unavailable to prevent a quorum. There is a second less compelling 2/3rds rule involved also that is derived from the Tx Senate Rules of Order. This second 2/3rds rule is required to reset the calendar. A bill other than redistricting was entered on the calendar to "block" consideration of redistricting first.

[madfloridian]

18. This is what I meant.

I found this at CNN, and I see why I misspoke on that part.
SNIP...."The Texas Legislature failed to passed a new district map after the 2000 census, so a federal court ordered a reapportionment plan in 2001. November's elections gave Democrats a 17-15 edge in congressional seats, but Republicans took control of the state House and Senate and reopened the redistricting debate.
Democrats want to keep the court plan in place until the 2010 census...."

So would you tell me why it is right to change the redistricting since it was done in 2001?

Does that mean any state can do it whenever they feel like more power?

[sandlapper]

21. Re:"This is what I meant."

The Tx Constitution empowers the Legislature to redistrict after the decennial census. In 2001 the Tx House was R controlled and the Senate was D controlled the legislature deadlocked over redistricting. The Tx Constitution provides for this contingency with a Texas Redistricting Commission. The membership is composed of elected members of the State Government and in 2001 that resulted in a R dominated Commission. The Dems appealed the redistricting to a Federal Court which because of the imminent elections basically took the 1991 districts with minor realignment to accomodate the two additional House seats resulting from the 2000 Census. The next regular session of the Tx Legislature was this year, 2003, because the Tx Leg. only meets once every two years for a Constitutionally limited 144 days. The Thugs argued that the Constitution did not empower the Federal Courts to redistrict and brought the redistricting up again. Technically I don't think there is anything in the US Constitution that bars redistricting any time there is a change in composition of a state legislature, it is usually not worthwhile because of the logistics and the fact that composition changes aren't that common anyway. The Tx Thugs are hungry to control redistricting because they have not been able to for 130 years.

[Eloriel]

13. Most Texans are against this ploy

At least that's what I thought I heard.

And even if they weren't, there comes a time when standing up to bullies and thugs is the RIGHT THING TO DO no matter what the political cost (or benefit).

I can't believe Texans are so far from the standard and traditional American values of fairness and fair play, which most Americans exhibit. Are they? If so, then I vote to give TX back to Mexico, NOW. They don't deserve to be Americans.

Eloriel

[Changenow]

14. You are so wrong about what is happening it is hard to

know where to start. But the central issue that you really miss is the tyranny of the majority. When one party or the other obtains power the minority party should not lose all their rights. That is exactly what the Republicans are trying to do here assume total control with contempt for any negotiation. These quorum rules are in place to give the minority some power and avoid unchecked absolute power by one party. Like it or not they don’t have a dictatorship yet. You are sadly mistaken if you think there would be any sort of process if the Democrats return.

[sandlapper]

16. Re:"You are so wrong about what is happening it is hard to"

There is another potential unintended consequence that may flow from the quorum breaking tactics of the Magnificient Eleven. In this session of the Legislature the Ds had a significant number of committee chairmanships if we can't overthrow the Rethug majority before the 2005 regular session of the Tx Leg. there is likely to be NO D committee chairs and probably significant numerical majorities for the Thugs on ALL Senate Committees! We may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

[goobergunch]

17. WRONG

I honestly don't see how losing 5 or more seats in the House helps us.

[sham]

20. The fact of the matter is

that a significant number of Texans, INCLUDING REPUBLICANS, do not want to redistrict. Take a look at these poll results...

The poll, conducted by the Scripps Data Center, surveyed 1,000 Texans on Aug. 7-21. The margin of error was 3 percentage points.

According to the poll, 46 percent of respondents didn't think that congressional maps should be redrawn, while 40 percent felt redistricting was a good idea.

About 46 percent of respondents faulted Mr. Perry's decision to call a second special session, compared with 44 percent who supported it.

source: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/politics/state/stories/082603dntexredist.c11c5.html

So according to these results, the Dems are upholding the wishes of a majority of Texans.

To be fair, the poll also found that a majority of Texans disagree with the Dems' decision to leave the state, but I don't think people understand why the Dems did it -- that if they wanted to fight this, they had no other choice. I also think, no I know, that most Texans don't know Tom Delay from Adam. They know nothing about the hand he has played in this whole thing, or what a conniving, evil bastard he is.

[alarimer]

22. WRONG

It is the Republicans who are not being fair here. They changed the rules as soon as they got power. They have bullied and cheated their way into office. Redistricting is only done once a decade. Period. The districts have been decided already. It is Perry who is the asshole here.

[genius]

10. These guys need our support. Let's send them more donations

They are standing between us and absolute fascism. Let's do all we can to support them.

[madfloridian]

12. We agree and did donate.

:hi:

[Deja Q]

19. As republicans are obviously not playing fair,

(a) why don't we shout the obvious from a mountaintop?

and/or

(b) why don't we play at their level? We can't deal with these "people" on an intelligent or civilized level. And we're the better party.

[Selwynn]

23. Well I've heard all the counter arguments

And you may be right, you may not be. Of course there is truth to the saying that "desparate times call for desparate mesasures" but there is also truth to what someone else refered to as not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

To those of you who returned to the argument of standing up to tyranny and all that, that may be true. On the other hand, these boys were elected, if they pass redistricting, and the people of texas don't like it, then they can vote them out of office. If the people of Texas don't care, then having a bunch of democrats storm off and refuse to play ball really seems little more than political, and not particularly representative of anyone.

To the people who aruged that the reason a quarum is part of the system is to protect the minority, I guess I agree up to the point, however I don't believe that a quarum was ever really intended to be a tool used in this fashion, with goverment officials fleeing the state to avoid law enforcement because they don't like something that's being done.

Anyway, I'm not an expert, I'm not from texas, I don't have an expert udnerstanding of the situation, only what I read and study. But I'm not ashamed of my opinion either. I don't think this particularly represents the party well. If you do, that's fine, I'm sure we can agree on other things.

Sel

[madfloridian]

24. So they should have stayed, been locked in the building?

And allowed to watch while the GOP took over the state? After the redistricting had already been done once?

I disagree.

[Selwynn]

25. They only take over the state if...

people elect them.

At some leve there is a large group of people who go to the polls and vote for Rebublicans. I really don't care if some people don't like the results. I'd prefer it if more people voted for democrats too, but they don't so until they decide the don't like the goverment they're getting that's life. I'd perfer it if democrats spent the time aggressively campaigning at a grass roots level to change (or in this case enhance) popular opinion rather than burning so much political capital one what I think will ultimately be remembered as very little more than a "stunt."

Now... my agrument here, begs the question of redistricting. The counter argument that should be made is to say that the redistrictly poly is specifically designed to in effect "rig" the elections -- its probably a very good argument, but I need it explained to me. So rather than a bunch of people flaming away, let's remind me why I love these boards so much and lay it out for me - give me a crash course 101 in redistricting and why the repbulican plan complicates my agrument.

So there is no confusion my agrument is:

1) what the people of texas want should matter most
2) if they don't support redistricting and the state does it anyway, the peopel should vote them out, and democrats should spend their time rallying support for that rather than expending their political captial on a stunt.

Now.. tell he how #2 is not realistic and/or is naive becasuse of the malicious plot of redistricting to undermine fair elections. I need to understand how redistricting works. I'm assuming the argument goes that Republicans want to redraw districts so that even if the majority population of the state voted for deomocratic representatives, those democrats would be so split up between districts that they would never have a majority in any of them? Am I close?

Anyway... teach me, convince me I'm wrong - its so much more fun than just flaming :)

Sel

[LightTheMatch]

27. Actually, Selwyn

It's more like this:

1) Texas Republicans know that basically only white people vote for them.
2) By 2005-2006, Texas will be under 50% white.
3) To keep their power after the point they are clearly in the minority, they want to control redistricting now, and then somehow find a way to stop redistricting or steal the statewide elections in 2010 so that they can control redistricting after the next census as well.

[UpInArms]

29. one of the

redistricting area proposed is 5 blocks wide and 300 miles long - does that actually sound like a district?

[madfloridian]

32. Hmmm..mm

If you called my post a "flame", then you have no desire to see the truth of the situation.

Florida has already been taken over quite effectively. CA and TX are in the process of being taken over.

You can present the case to me all you want. But locking the Democrats in the legislature against their will is just dead wrong.

That is not Democracy, not at all.

You go ahead and have fun with your technical aspects. Texas has already redistricted. CA had elected a governor in a fair election.

It is NOT ok for the GOP to cry foul just because they don't like the outcomes.

[Merlin]

26. Any Democrat who doesn't respect these guys is NUTS!

THIS is how to fight a political battle. They have done something notable and pragmatic that also calls attention to their struggle. They are thus far sticking it out. I would hope they will hang in there until their session expires so they can score a solid victory, even if they have to spend Christmas away from home.

The stakes in this are way too high. Anybody who says they can win big by folding the cards is trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

These guys have enormous respect inside Texas from both sides of the aisle.

[sandlapper]

28. And then there were 10!

It seems that John Whitmire has returned to his home in Houston and does not intend to continue participation in the "quorum busting".

[Brazosboomer]

33. Democratic State Senator John Whitmire is home.

I certainly hope Whitmire got a suitcase full of money for coming home to revive the re-districting plan because everybody sure thinks he did. It'd be a shame to blame his decision on pure political opportunism instead of the far more honorable bribe.
I guess we're gonna to have to re-write history. Moses Rose didn't leave the Alamo because he was a coward. He left because he was looking for "an exit plan."
Whitmire can take his "exit plan," bar-be-que it, and serve it up to Tom DeLay like the hired help he's become.

[artr2]

30. Nottingham, if you use

the printer- frendly version to copy & paste you will not get all that other stuff on your posts - just the good stuff. Good luck my friend

[Nottingham]

31. Thanks I usually do but when I went back I couldn't edit

But thanks for the tip for the printer version

:bounce: