Six on Pitcairn Island convicted of abuse

[quaoar]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6323696/

Trials expose culture of sex abuse on isolated islandThe Associated Press
Updated: 10:27 p.m. ET Oct. 24, 2004

SYDNEY, Australia - Six men were convicted of a string of sex attacks on Pitcairn Island, the isolated Pacific territory that is home to descendants of the 18th century Bounty mutineers, after trials that exposed a culture of sex abuse in the tiny community, media on the island reported Monday.

Among those convicted was the island’s mayor, Steve Christian, who claims to be a direct descendant of mutiny leader Fletcher Christian. He was cleared of four indecent assaults and one rape but was convicted of five other rapes, New Zealand’s TVNZ television network, which has a reporter covering the trials, reported.

The verdicts were read out by judges specially sent to the island from New Zealand who sat in makeshift courts in the Pitcairn community hall for the trials, which started Sept. 30.

The men were tried for a string of 55 sex attacks dating back up to 40 years on women and girls on the island, which has a permanent population of 47.

[Robeson]

1. Great Post!

This has been ongoing for some time, and looks as if legal proceedings are finally in gear.

[barb162]

2. "assaulted one girl in the island’s Seventh Day Adventist church"

what kind of a hellhole was /is that? I wonder how many of the women were assaulted?

[chascaz]

3. Interesting article on the matter.

From http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/29/npit29.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/29/ixhome.html

Sex at 12 is normal, say Pitcairn women
By Neil Tweedie on Pitcairn Island
(Filed: 29/09/2004)

Bounty island community rallies round men on trial

Women on the tiny Pacific colony of Pitcairn, where seven men stand trial today on multiple charges of sexually abusing minors, said yesterday it was perfectly normal for girls to have sex as early as 12.

<snip>
Fourteen women, almost all of the island's adult females and representing three generations, said the charges were designed to ruin the population of just 47.

Determined to defend their males, they called a press conference for the six journalists who have travelled to the island.

Many carry the surname Christian, inherited through blood or marriage from Fletcher Christian, the leader of the rebellion against Captain William Bligh and who founded the community in 1790 with eight other mutineers from the Bounty and their Tahitian consorts.

<snip>

[Jack_DeLeon]

13. relatively speaking it doesnt seem that odd...

18 is what is "legal" in most of the US (17 in Texas), and sex under that age routinely occurs.

Isnt 14, what is legal in Canada?

In Mexico I believe the legal age is 12.

[private_ryan]

40. but we expect everyone to have our exact

values, no matter where they are. Thousands of miles away from others and with just 47 people there, it doesn't seem far fetched to me. They are the ones who set the values, just like we set ours here. They are not set in stone and vary. What if another nation says that having sex with a 16 years old in Alabama is child abuse?

[barb162]

52. some of this is force ( rape) and that is not acceptable

period! Consent is one thing and force is another. Murder, rape, etc., are not acceptable in any society, even if they happen a lot. It never can be sanctioned.

[private_ryan]

54. forced rape is different. My comments were

regarding sex with underage girls. No one condones forced rape. However, sex with a minor is automatically rape according to the law and the issue is who sets the age, and how it's different in different countries.

[barb162]

53. I wonder if there is just a whole lot of inbreeding to the point that

their brains are not in the best shape. 200 yrs. of inbreeding among a very small group can do a lot of damage, Look at the Hapsburgs.

[chascaz]

59. The gene pool is diverse enough...

to avoid inbreeding problems because the original gene pool was diverse enough with the tahitian and english, and then over the years there have been additions (people married into the Pitcairn family). They're not as isolated as many seem to think. Most of them spend time back in NZ or Norfolk on a regular basis.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

4. With a permanent population of 47,

Pitcairn Is. has got to have one screwed up gene pool.......

[ArkDem]

65. I'm just wondering how they can manage to keep the population

at 47 permanently:crazy:

[DELUSIONAL]

5. I've been following this trial

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3950033.stm

This link above has basically the same information -- and it includes links to more information plus a map of where Pitcairn Island is located.



I have relatives who are Seventh Day Adventists and they have bragged for years how SDA missionaries converted the whole island to SDAism.

This church is a very male dominated church -- women have no power -- so the logical progression in an isolated island is exactly what happened here.

Isn't it ironic that the Branch Davidians are a wacky branch of the SDA church -- and from this came WACO wacko.

Any religon that is so unbalanced with some of the religious views of the SDA church and other fundamentalist churches demand the subjugation of women.

What will become of this island community??

[sally343434]

7. More of the "sex with kids"

Every time you scratch the surface of these religions, you always seem to find the practice of having sex with kids. In this case, as well as the Branch Davidians, it was sex with little girls. Catholics seem to prefer little boys. Jim Jones was getting it on with the kids too. And, of course, there's the Mormons.

It seems to be a pattern. Apparently it was common in this sect for mothers to "serve up" their daughters, just like with Koresh.

[hyphenate]

56. Regardless of any other factor

I think that a great deal of the problem is pure subjugation of women. An adult male having sex with a 12 year old, no matter WHAT country it is, is wrong. A child of 12 is incapable of making an informed decision. It's part of the entire history in which men will always find a way to keep women in their complete control. Let's face it: the conservatives' way to keep women under their control is purely evil: keep her barefoot and pregnant, or if she insists upon working, make sure she doesn't earn as much as any man in the company, probably including the janitor.

[chascaz]

8. The Island's church isn't to blame here...

On Pitcairn, there are really 2 separate groups, one very religious bunch, and another not-so-religious bunch. The religious ones aren't the ones who are implicated in this "sex scandal." The Island's Preacher is assigned by the British Govt., and they serve 2 year "tours" on Pitcairn. The same is true of the teacher, nurse and doctor. This is a cultural phenomenon brought from tahiti, and amplified by the close knit, small and isolated population on the island over the years.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

6. instant 12% prison population. Haliburton would be proud

of numbers like that.

[politicat]

9. To all: Please don't gloat. This is a tragedy of massive proportions.

First, it's horribly unbecoming. We're better than that.

Second, think about the implications: Should the 2005 decision grant Britain authority over Pitcairn Island, 12% of the population of the island - and 78% of the adult male-skilled workforce - will go immediately to prison. This will end this community's ability to take care of itself entirely. The only way supplies come in is via longboat, and it takes strength and skill to bring them in. Longboatmanship is a very precise skill; the Pitcairners have little or no chance of bringing in outsiders to do the work while the men serve out their sentences. This will destroy a community that has survived against all odds for 300 years. Can we be so cavalier about destroying civilizations and communities? Can we afford to be?

Third, look at a map - Pitcairn may seem remote, but it's on an almost perfect Great Circle arc with Korea. And the British government has spent a lot of money working on getting the island easier to access recently. I'm not tinfoil hatting here - I don't think there's a conspiracy to evacuate, at least not when this started in 99. I don't think the case was intended to cause the evacuation of the island, but I can see a motivation for the British government to push this issue to eventually lead to evacuation and then either building a base or leasing the island for military purposes. That would not be possible when such a small island was already occupied and occupied by a pacifist community. Sort of a make lemonade of the situation... and possibly get a lot of cash back for the lease.

Fourth: Please start thinking about the community dynamics of a community with 47 people - There may only be 2 women (or men) of compatible age with any given individual... and one may be a sibling. There's no one else, and it's hard to just jaunt off to the mainland for a shag when it's 36 hours to the closest airport... and people may starve because you've abandoned your job for 6 months to go find a spouse willing to come back to an island with 47 people!! Within small communities of this nature, accommodations have to happen. (Other such situations are sisters sharing a husband, brothers sharing a wife, teenage boys having and older, married woman as surrogate girlfriend... they're all documented cases of necessity being mother of custom in isolated communities.) I'm not advocating sexual assault - I must make that clear - but what you and I, who live in crowded, extensive urban worlds, may deem inappropriate changes when you look at small group dynamics. I think that's a big part of what happened here - an outsider came in, started asking questions and deemed behaviors that were normal in the world of the island as perverted by her own morals. (This case started when a policewoman from Britain was assigned to the island.) This is a case where cultural relativism is absolutely essential to understanding the society and to making law. That seems to have been ignored.

Fifth: Pitcairn, along with St. Helena and Tristan da Cunha are the best laboratories we have for understanding many different aspects of human life - genetics, small group dynamics (which will be critical for us as we go into space) social interaction between generations and insider/outsider conflict, linguistics.... Many branches of scholarship will suffer if we let these tiny communities die; it's worse if we kill them! And removing nearly 80% of the workforce will kill them. I know of at least one case of genetic advance that has come directly from work on Pitcairn.

I'm not an advocate for intergenerational sexual misconduct. What I am an advocate for is reparative justice. The fact that many of the cases that were at issue in this case are decades old is a problem. (The newest case is 10 years old at this point - it was 5 years old when it was reported in 1999.) Several of the cases are 30-40 years old. This is a reparative, not a punitive case. Punishing the 6 men helps no one and hurts the entire community.

I'm disgusted to see responses above that I would expect to see from our ideological opponents. I thought we liberals thought matters out. This is not a sex scandal in Paducah. Pitcairn cannot be judged by the same measures as contemporary American culture; they have no phone, limited internet access (2 hours a day), limited radio contact (Ham to NZealand for less than 4 hours a day); no satellite television, no cable (obviously); books, movies and music have to come in on long boats at great expense... We can't even use standards of 100 years ago, though the technology is about equivalent and the age of marriage is about right. There are no standards we can use because our culture and theirs are entirely estranged.

I hope, for the sake of those who were harmed and for the sake of those who remained as outside of the situations as possible that in 2005, reparative justice can be had. Prison won't help anyone.

Pcat

[depakid]

10. The voice of reason

Thank you.

I've nothing to add to that. You've about said it all.

[DELUSIONAL]

11. This is a complex issue -- granted

however, my remarks about the very fundamentalist religions mixed with the Polynesian culture (as well as the English seaman's culture) still stands.

Britain has a history of depopulating the natives and stealing their island -- Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean is one example. More recently they attempted to take one of the islands in the Caribbean -- but were taken to court for high handed behavior.

I was rather surprised that England had sovereignty over Pitcairn -- when they are trying to get rid of other dependent territories. The UK government seems to be investing a lot of money all of a sudden in this island -- UK personnel (civil servants) are paid a bonus for hardship posts.

I question the idea that the minister is assigned by England -- it is my understanding that the SDA church wouldn't allow government meddling -- and the only church on the island is the SDA church. On other depended territories the ministers are not assigned by the UK government.

This case began when a UK assigned female constable was told about sexual abuse. After the case in Eastern Washington where a "cop" developed a major case involving several adults -- based on the testimony of at first one child and then more children were "encouraged" to report adults -- I question any case developed by a "cop" ready to look for wrong doing.

It is also interesting that the reward (or punishment) for helping to make a case against the men of the island -- the girls and women got to leave the island.

Island kids and farm kids dream of moving away -- for the adventure.

But I do know that the SDA religion is extremely repressive toward women and that the women are taught that they are generally worthless.

SDA men are taught (from the bible) that they can do no wrong -- so some of the sexual abuse charges could be valid.

However, the penalty should be left to the islanders to decide -- it is their culture -- and the UK government has allowed additional abuse to happen -- by the way they have covered the news of these crimes (real or "repressed memories")

[chascaz]

12. resident pastor who usually serves a two year term

From:

http://www.government.pn/church.htm

<snip>
The Church was built in 1954 and is run by the Church board and the resident pastor who usually serves a two year term.
<snip>

[DELUSIONAL]

14. Most likely the SDA church assigns the paster

not the UK government.

One policy that separates the SDA fundamentalists from the rest of the fundamentalists is the SDA have a strong policy of the separation of church and state. My relatives love to brag about how they differ from the phony Sunday go to Church folk. (their words -- not mine -- I don't care which day of the week someone goes to church -- or if they even go to church).

In many remote regions "missionary" pastors are assigned for short periods.

If there is no paster then an elder would take over until a paster was assigned by the regional administrator. My guess is that for most of the time a minister may not be on island. (based on the fact that this male centered church now has female ministers on some Caribbean Islands. This piece of information was gained from a door to door missionary who answered my "no female ministers huh??" Not enough male ministers means even the SDA has had to ordain females -- gasp -- gasp.)

Which means if a new minister from the outside was assigned to the island every two years then the island was not populated by just descendants from the HMS Bounty and civilians from Tahiti.

Which also means that theoretically the women and girls on the island should have been able to ask for counseling from the SDA minister or his wife.

To understand the island culture one also needs to understand the main religion on their island. Many of the Pacific Islands have converted to one of the Christian religions -- one major religion throughout the Pacific Island is LDS (Mormons). Although the whole island may not be religious (as in attending church and following the rituals) -- they do share the same religious world view.

[chascaz]

31. Regardless of who assigns the pastor...

They're only there for 2 years, not long enough to be the cause of islander's attitudes towards (underage) sex. I think that, in this case, the SDA church can't be blamed for the island's culture. Their cultural attitude toward women and sex were there long before the SDA arrived in the late 1800s. I can speak from experience, having spent 3 weeks on Pitcairn to install a seismic station (). The more religious of the men were not implicated in the scandal. Most of the men that have been named were not on island when I was there. Dave Brown (one of the convicted men) was decidedly not a religious type. Jay Warren, who was cleared of charges, was a bit more religious, and seemed a very nice person. He's also one of the longboat pilots. The most religious people there, and most active in the church, weren't implicated in the scandal. I'm not trying to justify the rapes, and I think that the rapists should be punished accordingly, but the SDA church isn't to blame here. Don't know about Waco TX, and i'm not an SDA person (i'm Buddhist), I just think you're way off the mark trying to blame the SDA church in this case. Most religions subserviate women, not just the SDA, and on Pitcairn, that cultural attitude existed long before the SDA came along. If anything, the people of Pitcairn allowed the SDA church into their community because it matched their own views better than the Church of England. You seem to think that the SDA church came along, and taught them to abuse thier women, and have sex with young girls, and this is simply not the case, they were doing that since the day they scuttled the Bounty.

Peace - :)

[DELUSIONAL]

39. Western churches put a layer of culture on top of the indigenous culture

"If anything, the people of Pitcairn allowed the SDA church into their community because it matched their own views better than the Church of England. You seem to think that the SDA church came along, and taught them to abuse their women, and have sex with young girls, and this is simply not the case, they were doing that since the day they scuttled the Bounty."

You are putting words in my mouth.

There are countless examples cultural Anthropology of the new religion wiping out the old culture. The old ways are thrown away and the new ways taken as the correct way of behaving. Sort of trying to be more western than the western culture. (Typical copying of the dominate culture -- becoming a caricature of that culture.)

It is like the born again former smokers are stronger anti-smokers than life long non-smokers. Often we assume that the women of so called primitive cultures have a subservient role -- and this is rarely the case. Very often women have a powerful role in their own right.

For instance the Hawaiian men did the cooking and when the missionary women felt sorry for the Hawaiian women -- the Native Hawaiian women looked at the missionary women in hot dresses -- COOKING for the men. I use the Hawaiian example because a large part of the Hawaiian culture came from Tahiti.

If the typical culture of the SDA with the supreme dominance of men came to this isolated island -- the traditional role of women was probably tossed out.

According to the church mythology from my aunt -- the islanders had a bible and they tried to find a religion that was the closest to the teachings of the bible. Apparently the SDA church at one time did a lot of preaching about how the SDA church became the dominate and only religion on the island.

My point is that this sort of hidden abuse happens when women are in a powerless position -- and the SDA church keeps women in a powerless position.

[chascaz]

44. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth,

that's why I qualified my statement with "It seems..." In otherwords, I was telling you what my perception was of what you said, not trying to say that you said it, but really just wanting to understand why you keep making assumptions (based on well thought arguments and certain facts, no doubt, but) about a unique situation that you know nothing about. You're generalizing the situation on Pitcairn so that it fits your view of the SDA, cultural pollution and domination, when it really doesn't. That culture was unique in the World from the day they burned the Bounty. A group of English sailors and tahitian natives, isolated on a small island. Have you read "Pitcairn's Island"? It is the 3rd book in the Trilogy of the Bounty tale. "Men against the Sea" details Capt. Bligh's harrowing adventure after the mutiny, sailing with his officers in a lifeboat over 1000s of miles to Australia and eventually back to England. "The Mutiny on the Bounty", the 2nd book, as we all know has been made into many movies and such. The last book, though, is by far the most compelling and interesting tale. "Pitcairn's Island" tells the story of how all but one of the original English Mutineers was murdered on Pitcairn by their fellow Island Inhabitants. And, once again, I'm telling you that it is the more religious SDA islanders that arent' being convicted of rape, because they are not the rapists. It's the non and anti-religious amongst the islanders that are implicated in these trials. (1/2 the islanders drink, smoke (rape), etc, and don't go to church, basically, and the other half are devout SDA) You're comparison of the Pitcairners to the Koresh cult in Waco is completely and totally inaccurate and uninformed. While I agree that missionaries have polluted many native cultures around the World, the Pitcairners were not a "Native" culture, per se. They came from a mix of English Sailors and Tahitian Natives, and are trully unique in the World. I've been to enough remote islands to know what I'm talking about here. And, I can tell that you also know what you're talking about (in general terms) vis-a-vis cultural anthropology, but you are off the mark on this one. I would agree with your view if placed on any of the many S. Pacific islands I've been too. My ex-wife was born on Aitutaki and we met on Rarotonga, She's LDS, and I'm well aware of island cultures. Pitcairn is DIFFERENT, tho.

Peace - :)

[Djinn]

45. having sex with young girls is one thing

especially because many of the accused were young at the time - RAPING them is another.

I'm well aware of the wider problems on Pitcairn stemming from isolation and a tiny population referring to most of these instances as "sex" instead of rape and/or assault is still offensive

[LibLabUK]

17. Hmm

"However, the penalty should be left to the islanders to decide "

Ummm...no.

The Pitcairn Islands run at a loss. Their sole source of income is passing ships to which they sell fruit and craft items. Their income from this isn't enough to support the colony, so the UK government makes up the shortfall with UK taxpayer money (as it does for other Crown colonies).

Whilst they are recieving money from my pocket they should be held to the same standards of justice and human rights as the citizens of the UK, there can be no moral relevatism when it comes to the rape of 13 year old girls.

The men were tried by a New Zealand court, and they recieved a fair trial.

The islanders lack any kind of prison facilities, and can't even look after their own law enforcement and medical needs and as such are unable to determine or exact punishment for the crimes that these men have committed.

[quaoar]

18. You left out stamps

Pitcairn Island, like many other small island nations/colonies, generate a good bit of money through the sale of stamps to collectors.

Pitcairn also has its own internet domain registry that you can register your web site through. And they sell honey.

http://www.lareau.org/pitc.html

http://www.government.pn/

[LibLabUK]

23. Yes..

I did forget stamps and honey, but these still are not sufficient for the islands to be self-supporting.

The UK government recently invested large sums of money in upgrading the infrastructure on the island (telephone, roads, port and government buildings).

[smirkymonkey]

29. Thank you for posting that.

The fact that they are subsidized by UK tax dollars makes a big difference with regard to the standards to which they are held.

[private_ryan]

41. how about sex with 14 year old girls?

legal in Austria, Brazil, Canada etc.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

12 in Chile. Moral relativism?

[LibLabUK]

43. Hmm.. no.

Under UK law, sex with a child of 13 is an act of rape as the child cannot legally consent to participate.

These were adults doing this to children.

They are paedophiles.

The Pitcairn Islands are a Crown Colony supported by the UK, so they abide by the laws of the UK with the exceptions that have been laid down by Parliament.

It's nice to see so many people on DU rushing to the defence of child molestors and sexual predators.

[private_ryan]

47. child molestors and sexual predators because the law

set by people 12000 miles away says so. In Chile, the same is prefectly legal with a 12 year old girl. Legally you're right. My point is that under certain circumstances, traditions etc. People do things differently. Having sex with a man seems disgusting to straight men, but if you're in jail and all you see is men for 30 years...

on edit: I doubt you or I would be here if our ancestors weren't "child molestors and sexual predators". Apparently they're stuck in that world, and having just 47 people there doesn't help.

[LibLabUK]

60. Hmmm...

"child molestors and sexual predators because the law set by people 12000 miles away says so. "

You left out, 'the law set by people 12000 miles away who pick up the tab for them, says so.'

If they wish to molest children and they are unhappy that they cannot legally do so in the Crown Colony, then they are free to move to a more permissive location. They are not prisoners there. They do however, by remaining there and benefitting from the taxpayers of the UK, they agree to abide by UK law except where exceptions have been laid out for them. I suppose one would call it a social contract of sorts.

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. But what about 7 year old girls?

"Terry Young was convicted of one rape and six indecent assaults, which included a girl aged 7, but he was cleared of one indecent assault."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?reportID=1162662

Too young in any culture, I'd have said.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. On the point about using Pitcairn for military purposes

any 2 points on the earth's surface are on a 'great circle arc' between them. And Pitcairn is a lot further from Korea than Hawaii, or Guam.

[slinkerwink]

20. no fucking excuses----RAPE is RAPE

and they should go to jail! In that patriarchial culture, girls and women have NO recourse to say no, or to protect themselves from rape.

[private_ryan]

48. shouldn't we

prosecute the amazonian and african tribes who do the same?

[slinkerwink]

49. we should, but their governments don't enforce that

and that constitutes human rights violations, but mass rapes aren't important enough for the UN to intervene, and that's sad.

[private_ryan]

51. so what age

should tribesmen and women in amazon (who has been doing this for thousands of years), be allowed to get married?

[slinkerwink]

55. no excuses

[politicat]

57. I disagree, and I say that as a molestation survivor.

What is normal and right for you and I does not necessarily apply to other cultures. We would never consent to wear a chador or a burqua, but I know several very intelligent, self-assured women who would no more not wear their chador than not brush their teeth. There are women for whom the lack of genital mutilation is a mark of shame. Brainwashing? I suppose you could call it that, but it started in infancy. Anthropologists use the term cultural conditioning. That's what's happened in the Pitcairns.

We cannot judge other cultures by our own standards. We deplore it when (for example) Islamic fundamentalists judge us by their standards; why should we get the free pass to be judgmental when they aren't allowed to judge us?? And I really don't think you understand what it's like to live in a multi-generational community of less than 50. I know I don't, and I've lived in some pretty small and tight communities. There were more people than that in my Girl Scout kayaking trip down the Colorado! I talked directly to 47 people before 9 AM today.

I suppose you would consider my great-great-grandmother's life to be one based on rape - she married at 14 to a man 30 years her elder. She had no concept of sexual appropriateness that would be comparable to mine. For her, marrying Dr. R. was both frightening and exhilarating. She was not an entirely willing bride; it was economic coercion (she was orphaned and her choices were marriage to a much older man or servitude) rather than physical, but they aren't all that different.

But... I have her diaries. She could read and write a little when she married Dr. R. When he died, in 1918, during the flu epidemic, she had a high school diploma and was working on her Bachelor's at Purdue. They had two sons, both of whom died with their father. She loved him, and them, and it nearly killed her to lose them all. And without him, and what we would deem an inappropriate relationship, she would not have been able to bear my great-grandmother 5 months later - alone - nor support her or her later daughters (by a second husband who was killed on Lake Michigan).

I suppose because I see her world through her words, I can sympathize and empathize with the women of Pitcairn (who, it must be said, do not agree with the British government's decisions and are very angry at what is happening) and understand to an extent what their lives must be like . What I do realize is that I have no concept of how I could live in their world. I feel I have to trust their judgment on what is right and wrong for them because I can't make that decision for them, nor can any of my peers who come from urban, large group, multi-communal societies. For us to make a decision for them about the appropriateness and legality of their community is as bad as rich, white, old fundamentalist men making decision about my fertile, young, female body. We just don't speak the same language!

Pcat

[quaoar]

58. Well said.

[Lisa0825]

70. Excellent post!

Thank you!

[NNN0LHI]

15. Mr. Christian!

Hate to admit it but I know several of these fellows from speaking to them on amateur radio. Never knew they were sex maniacs. Hope they burn.

Don

[Lisa0825]

19. I became interested in the island when I saw the movie

"Mutiny on the Bounty." I have been a lurker on an internet group about the island for quite a while now, since before this case became news. It's really a sad story. It seems that bringing justice also will destroy a unique culture with a fascinating history. There is no good news here.

[slinkerwink]

21. this "unique" culture is one that is based on RAPE

and it's not so unique and nor does it deserve to last.

[Lisa0825]

22. I wasn't defending the men.

But yes, they have a unique history, and culture, and it is very sad situation. Have you read about their history? Have you read letters from the citizens? I have. I never said these men should NOT be brought to justice. I feel it is even more sad that justice will end their community.

[slinkerwink]

24. a community like that didn't report this culture of rape deserves to DIE

[Lisa0825]

25. *sigh*

*sigh*

not worth the effort of trying to explain myself to someone who won't make the effort to comprehend it.

[VegasWolf]

34. Well, some of us get your point Lisa.

New Information Shows Bush Indecisive, Paranoid, Delusional

[Lisa0825]

35. Thank you. (nt)

[pop goes the weasel]

26. that would be all human societies

with a very small population. That would be all our ancestral groups. Not justifying what has happened, but you have got to understand that nothing happened on Pitcairn that is remarkable. Small tribal societies tend to have group dynamics that would make Larry Flynt blush. There has been no idyllic paradise of human existence--each level of human complexity has its own problems.

You want to kill the Pitcairn society because it didn't report on itself. Tell me, to whom were they supposed to report? They were liekly under the illusion that they were in charge of their own problems. Probably most of them didn't even know what exactly was wrong in their society. Remember, we've had decades of education about sexual violence in our culture, and we still have trouble identifying when a crime has been committed.

They may be nominally part of the British Commonwealth, but there sure doesn't seem to have been much of an attempt by Great Britain to draw them into the mainstream of human global interaction. They have to rely on manually propelled long boats for trade? Picturesque, sure, but not an indicator that anyone much cared what the Pitcairners did with themselves. Obviously, that is changing, and Pitcairn society will never be the same.

[LibLabUK]

27. Hmm

"They may be nominally part of the British Commonwealth, but there sure doesn't seem to have been much of an attempt by Great Britain to draw them into the mainstream of human global interaction. "

They are a Crown Colony, and therefore not a Commonwealth member proper, which means that they are directly supported with contributions from the UK. The British Government has just completed a programme of upgrades to the infrastructure of the islands (roads, school, port etc).

Without the support of the UK, the islanders would be forced to leave to find better paying employment as their trading brings in roughly 50% of their required income.

It should also be noted that the UK provides the islands with a doctor, police officer and teacher.

For the trial judges were flown in from New Zealand as the islands lack their own judiciary.

[pop goes the weasel]

36. yes, and all that seems to be quite recent

The changes from improved infrastructure and easy access to the larger community will do a lot to change the situation. Since the charges that were brought go back several decades, the recent changes would not have affected conditions under which the violence was perpetrated and covered up. Obviously, it took increased outside involvement before there could be a serious challenge to the social structure.

I have to wonder what the Crown authorities were doing during the previous decades. Did they simply come by every now and then and toss some supplies on the island? Did they live so segregated from the Pitcairners that they may as well have been in New Zealand? If the sexually abusive pattern of behavior was so widespread over such a long period of time, why didn't outsiders report it earlier? My guess is that the outsiders either weren't there frequently enough to notice, lived so separate as to not know, or actively participated in such acts or their cover-up.

[chascaz]

38. They have 3-4 supply stops a year.

The Blue Star Line, from the U.K. stops by with a large load of supplies every 3-4 months. They grow/raise alot of their own food their, too. For being so remote, they actually have many modern conveniences, such as TVs, refridgerators, etc. They have recently expanded their internet access (by satellite) so that they could video conference the trials, i've heard. AS for me, I was completely unaware of any sex going on there when I was there, but then I'm completely unaware of any sex going on in San Diego, where I live. It was a very interesting visit, watching the dynamics between the island "sinners" (drinkers/smokers) and the (majority) church crowd. I do believe that the rapists came more from the sinner crowd than the church crowd, though, judging by the names they've given and what I know of the people there.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

63. I agree n/t

[slinkerwink]

28. NO excuses

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. The longboats have an engine these days

http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/pitcairn/PhotoTour/011.shtml

"Today’s Pitcairn boats are about 45 feet in length and are made of aluminum, powered by a diesel engine, and quite speedy."

The island does not have a harbour suitable for ocean-going ships to tie up in, so all goods have to be transferred by the longboats.

[pop goes the weasel]

33. that's good

Then the entire community can be trained to operate them rather than just the men. That would take the leverage away from the men.

[chascaz]

37. It's not that simple...

The skill and muscle are needed for handling the rudder. Consider a large deep V boat filled with about 20 passengers and perhaps a couple of tons of food and supplies. The longboats are brought into Bounty Bay with the (usually large surf), riding in on a wave, the pilot must perform a tight "fishtail" and spin the boat around within a small area of protected "bay" in order to bring it into the dock. Maybe this has changed since improvements have been made to the dock/port area, but I doubt it. However, I think that the convicted rapists aren't necessary for the community to survive. Most of them weren't on island when i was there in 95-96, and they did fine getting 5 heavy pallets full of seismic station equipment safely onto the dock. It was trully amazing to watch the longboats in action. They also managed all the other chores and business of Pitcairn without most of the guys who were convicted, atleast while I was there.

Peace - :)

[Djinn]

46. what would you suggest chascaz

I unsderstand what you're saying but what's the alternative - this culture isn't going to go away with a few hours community counselling - do you really want to continue to subject the women of Pitcairn to this abuse, should these men get away with it because some offenses took places over a decade ago? shoould they get away with it because they're needed in the community?

Pitcairn is and has been for a very long time completely dysfunctional and unsustainable, it's time to start asking some more serious long term questions.

[chascaz]

50. I'm no social engineer...

But, here's what I think. Besides the cultural uniqueness, which (arguably) has some value. There are other reasons to keep Pitcairn inhabited. For one, the seismic station is valuable because of its proximity to nuclear testing sites in the pacific. Data from the station are used to monitor test ban treaties, and serves as a deterrent to the French, who have conducted nuclear tests in the region, and perhaps could do so (more easily) clandestinely without the station on Pitcairn. There is also some sort of satelitte earth station there (i'm not sure which one exactly), and I'm not talking about their own comm sats, but rather an earth station that is used to track sats in orbit, or something like that. The remoteness of this place also makes it a great place to set up other environmental monitoring instruments. When dumbya gets his pink slip, I hope that we'll invest in a new global network of such stations (data will be used for global warming science, treaty monitoring etc.). Maybe we'll have science officers in our embassies again.
As I understand it, they're already discussing alternatives to the island's prison, and may allow the convicts to do their work, man the longboats, etc, perhaps under supervision from the newly assigned police officer. Maybe they'll assign a whole unit. At any rate, the damage is done. The victims are safely away from Pitcairn, and will see justice served, i'm sure. They're a very tight knit community, so sometimes I feel it's nobody's business, including me. But, on the other hand, many Pitcairner's "commute" between Norfolk, New Zealand, and the rest of the outside world on a regular basis. There is a central group who tend to stay on Pitcairn, but many more live on Norfolk, and also in NZ. At some times in the past, Pitcairn has been evacuated by the UK Govt. Norfolk became the Pitcairner's 2nd island home. You may recall about a year or 2 ago the news story about Norfolk's first murder occuring? Perhaps they could find some upstanding citizens on Norfolk to replace the convicts? Perhaps the threat of being evacuated will bring a surge of returnees? (During some periods in their history there have been upwards of 100 inhabitants on Pitcairn) and maybe that would make for a healthier society. Returnees could bring many "modern world" skills, and perhaps more police and government? I thought that they managed just fine without the majority of the convicts, who weren't there when I was there for 3 weeks once. I wonder if this scandal was a reason for that "bunch" to have been gone? Though, 2 of the men were there, one of them has been cleared of charges, and seemed like a nice guy to me, and one of the boatsman. The other was likeable, but pretty vulgar at times, and one of the "Last Pirates" as they like to call themselves, also a boatsman. I believe, but just guessing, that there are 2 groups on the island, the (relatively) devout church crowd who like the independence, community, (relatively) pristine wilderness, solitude, mystique, whatever about the place, and another group who choose to live there because they are trying to escape from or avoid something bad (like criminal records, illegal activity, bad "friends" etc) in NZ or Norfolk or wherever their "modern world" home is. These ones also bring the booze and everything that goes along with that, IMHO. (I should talk, but I'm no rapist.) It's more likely that the crimes of violence that have been perp'd on Pitcairn were influenced more by the large video tape collection of movies they have than the Church or the local community, setting aside the cultural phenomenon of early age sex, If you can.

[private_ryan]

42. don't bother

he would be for bringing cannibalism charges against those people who were stranded in the Andes.

[KansDem]

30. I bought the DVD version with Clark Gable and Charles Laughton...

In addition to the movie, a featurette made in the 1930s (done in newsreel fashion) about the inhabitants of Pitcairn is included (I can't remember the exact year--maybe the same year as the movie?).

It showed that the citizens were still using many of the artifacts from the Bounty (water jugs, anvil and tools, etc)

Of particular interest: the narrator stated that a ship had visited the island about 20 years after the mutiny and found that only one of the original mutineers was still living. The others had been killed off in arguments over possession of the females.

So much for life in paradise...

[Anarcho-Socialist]

62. They should go to jail. This is not a cultural issue

They raped children, they're paedophiles. They should obey the laws of the United Kingdom.

[Anaxamander]

67. But what do you consider "children"? The age of consent differs

even from state to state in the U.S. Some places it's 18. Some places it's 16. Some places it's 12.

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. The youngest child in a conviction appears to be 7

a child of 5 was involved in one of the charges, but that hasn't been mentioned in the list of convictions.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

69. U.K. laws states the age of 16 that a child is old enough to consent

Any adult would do best avoiding a sexual relationship with anyone under 18; except if the second person was 18 and the other person was 17 or even 16.

Abuse on the Pitcairn seems to involve children from ages 7 to 14. No child in this range is old enough to make a rational decision to consent to sex with anyone. This is bad enough, but much of the abuse was rape which takes even the idea of consent out of the equation.

[UL_Approved]

64. We've seen this shit before

Anybody ever heard of the Trail of Tears? Chief Joseph? Ring any bells?

I'll bet when it comes out, one of the "in" corporations in the U.K. or Australia has an interest in the island. Or maybe Tony's Heroes in Parliament thought they needed some place to expand the military.

If it was really about justice, don't you think it would have started about, oh, just for speculation, AT THE TIME OF THE MUTINY??

[Anarcho-Socialist]

66. If child rape was happening in the US Virgin Islands and American Samoa

Would people still be for "not interfering in another culture"?

[slinkerwink]

71. good point