Vote in U.S. inflames Europeans

[Fear]

PARIS - One would think it was their leader being elected - and many Europeans believe it is, in a way. In a tremendous show of interest unseen in previous U.S. presidential campaigns, Europeans on both sides of the Channel have been riveted by the coming American vote, obsessing about the future of the United States as if it were their own.
.
"Because of the war against terror and the war in Iraq, people feel it's much more than a U.S. election," said Kay van de Linde, a communications consultant at The Hague. "They feel it's a world election, because the U.S. president decides not only what's good for the U.S., but also what's good, and bad, for Europe."

YEAH RIGHT! - A president doesn't decide what's good and bad for Europe, he's just a CRIMINAL!

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/26/news/vote.html

[ixion]

1. if Bush wins

the world will be done with us, I'm afraid. :-(

[Zayin]

2. A lot of them already are

[DebJ]

4. that's not what I heard on my visit to Europe last year. We went

to London, Paris, Interlochen, Nice, Rome. What we heard was this:
we like the American people. It is Bush who has to go.

[Windy]

5. I was in London and Paris too and got the same comments

however, if the Americans re-elect Bush, then I think that sentiment will change drastically...

[Amigust]

7. Americans are responsible for who their governement is

and are not somehow immune from world anger for saddling them with * again.

[barb162]

22. If they are watching this closely they will see how split the country

is and that roughly half the country doesn't want Bush.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

29. looks like you've spent alot of time on that-Free Repube licks help you?

here's a new project to try--Should be a hell of alot easier-
You could probably fill several pages in about 2 minutes.

Gather up quotes of members of the * Regime saying that shit about Iraq being a threat.
You can start by *'s SOTU Address--yeah the one about the"mushroom cloud".
Colin Powell's address to the United Nations.
Cheney is STILL saying it on Natyional TV.
(even though he's got his happy with his company Halliburton's multi billion dollar no bid contracts)
Should take about 2 minutes to list the blatant lies

When your done
Uncle Bernie will straight yer ass out !
http://www.kgoam810.com/

[Mountainman]

42. No, only those who vote for Bush are responsible for electing him

I refuse to be blamed for Bush and Co.!

[Redwraith]

60. its just so dificult

to make that differnce on first sight.

I met some Americans this summer when i was traveling in Rome. And the first thing that i wanted to find out was their political direction. And you cant belive how happy i was when i found out they were dems

[lukasahero]

87. It's easy - only Dems travel

outside the states. ;)

[American Tragedy]

55. COMPLETELY WRONG

Approximately half of all voters are the ones who are responsible, as well as the media and the men and women who are directly involved with the Bush administration. That's it.

My nationality does not make me responsible for the actions of my government, any more than civilians who were destroyed in the WTC, or innocent citizens everywhere who happen to live under disastrous regimes and have suffered or even died for it. I am not personally guilty for what other Americans do or have done in the past, nor am I responsible for the actions of my ancestors.

I am just so fucking sick of seeing people use the first person plural when describing the latest Bush administration failings, as though all of us were in collusion, when there are in fact very specific individuals and organizations who deserve blame. As I have said before, I'll take responsibility for what I've done, not for who I am.

[It was not a pretzel]

56. You're right

I'm a long-time DU'er and I'm terrified. If Bush wins even those of us can distinguish betweeen the people and the boy idiot are going to struggle to differentiate. It's bad enough that it's even close enough for * to steal.

It's still nearly a week to go and I'm nervous as hell already, I haven't felt like this since the 80's when I was hoping Thatcher would get kicked out.

:scared: :scared:

[lakemonster11]

80. I agree.

And Madeleine Albright said as much on the Daily Show last night.

[NEOBuckeye]

18. They'll think much less of us if we let Bush get four more years. n/t

[Anaxamander]

47. Yep. USA: Oui, Bush: Non! (nt)

[Jersey Devil]

50. That will change if the American people elect Bush

He stole the election the first time so the people could be forgiven. But if he is elected by the people the animosity will be directed towards Americans as well.

[Just Me]

53. Personally, I believe the ONLY way Bush can win is,...

,...if he steals it or stops it.

[Almost_there]

44. Done with us how?

At this point, the world has become almost one big economic melting pot. You notice how long the boycott on French products lasted? It is almost impossible to simply cut off the US from Europe and vice versa. Yes, they hate Bush and won't support the war, but, we still import billions from Europe, and they would be hard pressed to replace those dollars elsewhere, and we would be hard pressed to find new markets to sell our goods, especially things that only the US makes.

It isn't as simple as "being done with us", not by a long shot. They might hate our leadership, but, they will continue to do business with us, continue to come here, and we will continue to go there. Historically, you have to understand we are all linked.

[ixion]

48. I disagree.

I think what you say is true to a point, but at some point ( a point which I feel we're very close to ) they will draw the line, just like they drew the line not long after Hitler invaded Poland.

At some point, we cease to be a democracy and become a facist regime bent on global domination. I don't think that will set well with the EU, China, Russia and so on.

[Redwraith]

61. EU i agree

EU I agree, even if i belive that many, especially conservation governments are too Bush friendly.


China and Russia I dont know ... Especially Russia goes back to were it was, this time just in a capitalist way instead of a communist.

[forgethell]

54. Damn capitalism

and free trade, anyway.

[Fear]

59. Business is Business

[0007]

70. "Especially things that only the US makes"

Like what? Planes, bombs, guns, tanks, and other weaponry? I'm not sure what else we export except perhaps wheat to Russia.

[Fear]

3. That someone actually THINKS that (kay van de Linde), is just UN

BEFUCKINGLIEVABLE!, everybody in Europe HATES Bush for lying to the world, for lying to it's own people, and his criminal activities....except Kay van de Linde obviously.

[Sara Beverley]

6. Well Bush has really destablized the world so that they have as much to

lose, if not more, than we do. This stuff happens right in their back yards. Bush policies and the way he and his henchmen have conducted the Iraqi invasion and occupation have made the world a much more dangerous place for everyone.

[cliss]

8. In a sense though, he does.

The US president has far-reaching powers that can and will affect other countries. This includes Europe. During Debate #3, "Einstein" said he would cut almost all American troops in Germany to free them up for duty in Iraq.

Thanks to the "Genius" in the White House, the US Dollar is swirling in the toilet right now. This affects European currencies. Think of all the European companies that do business with the US, or want to do business with us.

This becomes more difficult when you have a dude like George BeetleBrain running the show.

The problem with George is that he's an idiot with no class. He spit on Europe, and he didn't care. If you're going to be an idiot, at least do it with some class.

[Fear]

13. I agree, but that's the word *affect*, but not "decide" as in the article

[Voice_of_Europe]

37. makes small difference...

There is not THAT much of a difference wether somebody decides for you or wether his decision affects you in many many ways and you can't take any influence on it.

But here's something I noticed.
Since Bush is president the Europeans start to grow closer to each other. Bush shows all the Europeans that we are NOT Americans no matter what products and lifestyle and movies swap over to Europe from the US.
Europes politicians start to find their own voice.
Bush is actively helping Europe to grow closer and act more coherent and make decisions faster and Europe is actively starting its own policy and agenda for its OWN interests as opposed to always toddling in US footsteps and more or less doing what Big Brother wants.

Under this perspective hopefully US decisions will affect Europe less and lesser in the future to come

[tanyev]

43. See--he's a uniter!

Although I wouldn't be proud of uniting people in their hatred of me.
:shrug:

[Fear]

57. Actually that makes a huge difference, and secondly Europe has been

growing all along since start of the European Union and the countries that are getting added to it. Which makes Europe a large player :S

[Voice_of_Europe]

83. Any arguments provided?

1. Please explain the difference for a non-US citizen that can't do anything against the decision.

2. My statement wasn't about growth, it was about less quarrelling, better cooperation, faster decisive processes in Brussels, more coherent foreign policy instead of 5 different foreign policies.
A European IDENTITY is coming to light where there were only Trade Treaties before.
It's not just bewteen politicians of member states anymore but the normal people are starting to feel European and seeing that the other European guy might speak another language but belongs to the same team.

And this feeling has been rapidly growing in recent years and will soon be a kind of European patriotism or nationalism.

[KAZ]

9. The whole world is watching. n/t

n/t

[dkhbrit]

10. I'm a Brit living in the U.S.A.

I speak fairly regularly to my friends back at home. I have talked to them about 9/11 and the terrible lack of investigation - many of them agree that it stinks. The general feeling is that Bush is an idiot. Sadly, this does reflect somewhat on the American people as a whole. Thank goodness for places like this though. Remmeber though, we (not me) elected the Tories and Margaret Thatcher.

I just know the sort of things people will say to me when I go back during the holidays, if (for fecks sake please no!!!!!!!!!!!!) Bush gets back in.

"How could they re-elect that moron"

I don't think people fully understand the sheer strenght of the religous right vote here. I didn't until I came to live here. So many poeple will vote because everything that is going on is 'gods will' or whatever. It's bloody scary.

[marlakay]

12. Thanks for the words we feel the same way

and are afraid of how the world will view us if Bush gets elected. I believe in God but feel there has to be a separation of church and state. Bush is living in some fantasy world and its scarey to have a president like that. We have to get him out. I believe we will, I believe the young will come forward this time.

[Fear]

14. Yes I know what you mean......but what most Europeans

really don't understand that Americans are buying into all the lies (patriot act etc. etc.)

[hyphenate]

16. Because even now, regardless of religion

Almost half the country of citizens in this country are good for nothing dingbats who keep buying into the propaganda that this evil regime has been spreading. Yes, half this country is ignorant and boorish, and you can't get it any plainer than that.

[Amigust]

28. The dumbing down of the population boosts

evangelical Christianity and social conservatism and moves the country to the right. Keep the coolaid coming. Why really improve the schools when they're working so well already?

[reprobate]

17. The religous right are part of it, but a small part.

The major problem that we face is the corporate media, in whose eyes bush can do no wrong. Time after time they, and I include that bastion of free thinking-NPR, have misled the population with halftruths and outright falsehoods.

Even in the 2000 campaign they refused to make public all of the screwups of this moron. A man who has NEVER been successful at ANYTHING that he's done. If they had, he would have been laughed off the stage of public discourse.

It's possible that with a Kerry win they will turn on the bushistas. They are nothing if not consistant. They always follow the power.

[barb162]

23. and the religious right is getting stronger every day although a lot

of DUers don't want to admit it.

[donco6]

25. We don't use the word "sheeple" for nothing.

We acknowledge that many of our fellow citizens are - well - *uninformed*.

Ah, hell, they're stupid. Redneck, mullet-sporting, cat-killing, beer-bellied, hypocritically stupid. What can I say?

[Amigust]

30. Sheer eloquence.

[txindy]

46. Tell your friends the truth. * can only win by stealing this election.

We're all working hard to see that does not happen, again. We didn't elect him in 2000, that's what makes it twice as grating. But for the Supreme Court, these last four years might have been avoided.

[strizi64]

76. We know

and we help you as much as we can from abroad :). Don't let happen FL2000 again...

[young_at_heart]

11. Don't forget the role of "religion" in all this

No president has ever had such a major religious agenda and 46% of Christians in the US believe that our invasion of Iraq leads us closer to The End Times and "salvation"....heard this on 'Bill Moyers Now'. The media ignores the huge God/Bush connection. I'm guessing this makes some Europeans nervous!

[Fear]

15. Yeah, keep the seperation between religion and politics (always)

[Brundle_Fly]

20. I am canadian

and I love americans, all 51% of them that vote dem.

[barb162]

24. oh thank you; I love Canadians, all 100% of you.

[Brundle_Fly]

58. that's because we are all

Liberal!

even our conservative party looks liberal compared to your mid ranging dems.

[Hog lover]

77. If, heaven forbid, the election is stolen, may I come to Canada?

[AndyTiedye]

26. It Makes ME Nervous!!

:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

[eriffle]

19. I was in Europe this past May

and the sentiment was not anti-american, but anti bush. I was over there when Abu Ghraib broke out. I was in German cities that had US military bases nearby, namely Heidelberg, and there was an anti-military sentiment, but not so much an anti-american sentiment. Also, though, I was genuinely curious about their culture and their language, and I was there to learn. I get the feeling that most americans (or atleast the ones that stick in people's minds over there) are not curious people and don't try to blend with their culture and participate in their way of life. This may have made me immune from anti-americanism since, but I spoke at length with many people about their opinions of americans, of our politics, and our culture, and pretty much most of it was positive.

[DemoTex]

21. Stand by for a love fest ...

The Kerry landslide is going to be better than sex (for a few minutes). Then drawers will drop and children will be created, worldwide. I have layed in extra KY and Viagra. Kerry will be the best news since Hitler was killed.

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

31. Bush isn't ever leaving-he's planning on staying in for life

You'd have to drag him away in handcuffs kicking and screaming!
Deibold's all set--The Supreme Court Judges are all ready and waiting-
The "national emergency" terra event is in place.
There may not even be elections.
And what happens THIS TIME?
after the smoke clears-
A massive revolt in our cities.
Military law in place.
All opposition rounded up (and thanks to the patriot act never heard from again)
Curfews.
News blackout.
internet "down" indefinitely.
all radio and tv monitored by the military.
A manditory immediate draft of all 18 year olds (except those related to republican politicians and corporate executives)
sound unlikely?
don't write it off.
it's perfectly possible and I feel it's highly likely.

[Demeter]

41. Handcuffs Will Be Available--and plane tickets to Hague

It will be the GOP fashion statement--and the Martha Stewart revenge!

[ShinPath]

35. uhhhh

That's a pretty funny way of looking at it. Just don't let the other side pick it up and distribute it!

[Almost_there]

45. I can't help but comment... (sorry)

You need both KY AND Viagra??? YOU DA MAN!!!! Either that, or... <gulp>... YOU DA OLD MAN!

~Almost

[Gregorian]

49. If Kerry winning is going to bring more people into this world,

then I'm awfully tempted to vote for Bush. I really hate to say that. I would never ever vote for Bush. But people still don't get that the problem that ecclipses Bush as president IS THE POPULATION. Maybe I'm missing your sarcasm. I sure apologize, if so. I kind of doubt it though. Most people just don't get it yet. Aw forget it. I go on my soapbox, and all people think about is how negative I am. I'll just say this- cars don't drive themselves.

However...I already voted, and I pray like mad that the rest of the Americans with their tiny brains, can see the light and vote for Kerry. Sorry Europe, some of us just don't know any better, yet.

[PartyPooper]

32. I can hardly wait for a Kerry victory to bring Europe back as a friend

of the US.

It's long overdue!

We love Europe!

:loveya:

:toast:

:beer:

:hi:

[strizi64]

33. Most of Europe will see F9/11 on 11/1....

cause our networks are not blinded by the light, oops Repubs... As others said before, there is no or not much anti-american sentiment but a strong opposition to Bush and his friends. We know that he lied, we don't forget Powell who lied to the whole world. They have to go. And then it's time to get over it for a new start. You will see, Europe will be in party-mode when Kerry is elected. And in tears if Bu$h will be pResident for four more years. Just to let you know, we had a poll in Switzerland last weekend. Kerry won in a landslide: 86% Kerry, 7% Bush --- but 62% said that they like or even love the United States :)...

[Voice_of_Europe]

40. Party when Kerry wins

(wave from Zurich)...

I decided to take at least one day off if Kerry wins.
That will be a day worth rememberance!

[Heidi]

75. Planning a day off, too . . .

when Kerry wins.

(Wave from Tessin/Ticino!)

[Matilda]

34. There's a lot of coverage in Australia too.

Last night I saw two programs back to back on different channels on
the election - one a portrait of the two candidates, the other
focusing on the possibility of fraud.

Print media have always had good coverage of the elections, but I
don't recall quite so much attention on TV before.

[Stockholm]

36. Summing up: Americans yes Bushites no.

http://detfalskested.dk/bush/en/

[Swamp Rat]

39. Tack så mycket

[Tight_rope]

38. " Bush is probably the least like of all US presidents since WWII"

This statement says it all about how the world view the moran in chimp that spends most of his time in Crawford!

[Eurobabe]

51. our eurotrash family says yes to Americans, no to *

[BonjourUSA]

64. 72% of the French feel friendliness for Americans...

The French newsmagazine "Marianne" recalled this European poll last week. (61% of the Brits feel the same). But only 5% of them would vote for Bush. (it's too much yet !)

[young_at_heart]

52. What other president has caused THIS much pandemonium?

You'd think this sort of world reaction would cause Bush supporters to question his ability. I think they don't because they see him as a "Christian savior" in the Middle East.

[nonconformist]

62. Hitler. nt

[samtob]

63. Reagan, 1982 pretty close n/t

[cubsfan forever]

65. Why is it that, for the most part

Europeans see things more clearly than many Americans? Just wondering.

Professor 2

[freeminder]

67. History / education / free press

History because after all the Nazis happened here. As did the Roman empire.
Education and free press are self-explanatory.

And there are exceptions -> see Berlusconi's grip on Italian media.

[cubsfan forever]

74. Thank you; excellent point! n/t

Professor 2

[Fear]

88. Most of the systems are also setup differently.

You could ask yourself how democratic a country is when there are really only 2 parties to vote for (republicans or dems), the other parties will not have a place in the US government since they won't be able to get as much votes thus not getting a place in the parlement.

As for example the Netherlands, all parties will have a place in the parlement. Meaning, the lesser votes they have the less seats they will be able to occupy in the parlement.....so the big guys as well gain most control in the parlement, yet the smaller parties (when getting enough votes are able to obtain a few seats) and will have a voice (representing a part of the population in the country).

That together with the replies you received......that should give you an answer.

Also - religion.

[BonjourUSA]

66. That's sure, if Bush is elected the gap between you and us will be deep.

And, in Europe, the friendliness capital for the American people could be lost because once it's perhaps an accident, twice it's a choice.

We used to say we share the same values. But, is it really true ?

[freeminder]

68. "twice is a choice"

and in a second term, PNAC will become even more apparent. It will be there for all who can see.

Then, we would have to liberate them like they liberated us.

[BonjourUSA]

69. In a democracy the best weapon is the ballot

But in this moment, the candidates are spending $4 billion for just 50% of voters... Search the mistake !

[freeminder]

71. The mistake? Easy one : party financing

Party financing used to be legal here in belgium too (amounts weren't as obscene, but big enough) till the late eighties. Then we decided it leads to corruption (some major scandals involving bribes to parties to get government contracts - sound familiar anyone?) and made it illegal.

I think that's where current fascism in the US comes from - fascism = corporations and politicians being one.

So nothing some good campaign finance law can't take care of.

[whosinpower]

72. Obviously - this election affects BILLIONS

of people across the globe. Being the leading nation of the free world - what else would you expect?

But here is the thing - if America chooses Bush again - ALL BETS ARE OFF. I can see Europeans, Canadians, Mexicans, and many many others simply not giving Americans the benefit of the doubt. You could say we empathize with you having to be burdened with an idiot president - you were sold a damaged lot of goods - so to speak.....but to do it TWICE....

America has without a doubt the most powerful military in the world today - and it wields a powerful economy....but it is still part of a global community, and should it appear to be totally off its rocker - I would not at all be surprised that foreign investments would tank after electing Bush for a second time. Devalue the dollar by flooding the market with US dollars - or simply change the currency by which oil is traded - or both....and we see signs of this already. I really beleive that if push comes to shove - the globe will seek a way as a counterbalance to US hegemony. Sad really - it did not have to be this way - but George just blew it too badly in Iraq.

[stepnw1f]

73. BUSH WILL NOT WIN

If we have to we hit the streets. I'm sick of seeing the pessisimism and setting up for failure. Keep the faith Dammit!!!

[donheld]

78. I see a lot of optimism in DU posters

I really think most of us are just afraid of getting our hopes up too high. I think you'll hear a really loud sigh of relief when the votes are in and Kerry wins but not until those votes are in.

[Dover]

79. Maybe European polls are more reliable than our own....which is giving

everyone false information. I find it VERY difficult to believe that nearly half of U.S. citizens support Bush. I simply DON'T believe it. Why would the neocons work so hard to secure their image through all kinds of media manipulations as well as election fraud and NOT include the biggest opinion gauge in the country........the polls? They are fairly easy to manipulate too.

[Fear]

89. No poll is reliable, only those performed by professionals....(online poll

s should be banned!)

[KitSileya]

81. Leader of the world

On a televized debate on Norwegian tv yesterday, a journalist said something which I think sums up well why Europeans dislike Bush. She said that Europe doesn't resent the US being the Leader of the World - at least not when they have the good of the world as first priority. It's this blatant disregard of world interests in favor of the US which has our heckles up. As long as what the US did was even nominally done for the best of the world, it was ok. But Bush has tossed any semblance of cooperation overboard and is focusing solely on American interests, to the detriment of carefully built international fora and friendships - the ICC, the Kyoto treaty, Iraq, the list goes on and on.

Kerry, at least, has said that he wants to work with the world, and that is an enormous step up from Bush. He might not be able to reverse the Congressional decisions on these issues (even if Bush had been on the European side of these issues, Congress would have stopped him) but at least he doesn't treat the rest of the world as inconsequential. A demonstrated willingness to talk goes a long way.

[BonjourUSA]

82. Perhaps the gap is deeper.

We used to say that we share the same values, but is it really true ?

Bush enlightened the differences. And our future relationships could never be the same.

Many American have a very high opinion of their country. The best way of life, the best political system, the best (and why not the lonely) freedom country, the God's missionary... and it has to spread out these benefits all over the world. Of course it is false but, I believe, deeply into the American myth. Bush is its representative caricature and more than 50% could perhaps vote for him.

[KitSileya]

84. Yes, that was also mentioned.

The fact that the US has moved to the right politically, while Europe has moved to the left. They also mentioned the fact that this election is not "it's the economy, stupid" as James Carville so famously said, but it's a culture war. There's a belief among Bush supporters that American values are disappearing, and they see Bush as their last champion to defend them. These values are quite, quite different than those that permeate European culture - Christian self-righteousness versus humanism.

And you are right, Bush has simply made people aware of how different the two cultures are, and were. Europeans, while they are proud of their countries, shy away from the type of nationalism Americans exhibit. They've learned the hard way that no one country has the copyright on the true way, and seeing America claim they do, on the world stage no less, makes them very, very wary.

[txindy]

85. Good point.

A leader isn't leader because he announces it. A leader is someone the others look to for guidance, as well as support. B*sh only supports himself and his own thugs. Kerry has proven himself a leader, time and again. The willingness of his men in Vietnam to follow him still exists over 30 years later! That, to me, says an awful lot about John Kerry's character and his strength as a leader.

We are NOT going to lose this election! No way.

[peacetalksforall]

86. If Bush steals it again...we are doomed from every angle and those

Europeans who still like us may be sending us the care packages.