2 say they found 9/11 'black boxes' (Philadelphia Daily News)

[Minstrel Boy]

2 say they found 9/11 'black boxes'

Two men who worked extensively in the wreckage of the World Trade Center claim they helped federal agents find three of the four "black boxes" from the jetliners that struck the towers on 9/11 - contradicting the official account.

Both the independent 9/11 Commission and federal authorities insist that none of the four devices - a cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) from the two planes - was ever found.

But New York City Firefighter Nicholas DeMasi has written in a book self-published by Ground Zero workers that he took federal agents on an all-terrain vehicle in October 2001 and located three of the four. His account is backed by a well-known Ground Zero volunteer.

Their story raises the question of a cover-up at Ground Zero - although's it's not clear why the government would want to keep the discovery under wraps.

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/10033802.htm

This story was posted last night, but moved out of LBN presumably because it didn't have a recognized news link. That discussion is here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x24477#24488

A more complete version of the story can be read here:

http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/extra/archives/001139.html

[radwriter0555]

1. Considering black boxes are DESIGNED to withstand PLANE CRASHES that

little line of lies never made any sense.

These guys are TRUTHIN'.

Hope they live to tell the tale.

[truthpusher]

2. How old is this story? I could not find anything other than what you...

...posted. Is there anything else out there to back this up?

[Minstrel Boy]

6. It's an exclusive story

Is The Philadelphia Daily News not a respectable source?

[truthpusher]

7. The way things are these days...others should be backing this up then...

...echooing it.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. The story only broke today. n/t

[truthpusher]

18. The reason I am asking is this could be huge...

...it has massive potential. I like to be sure before I start talking to people about anything. Last weekend I canvassed for Kerry and it would not look good if I talked about something that turned out to be bogus. Doesn't mean I think the story is bad. As well as you, I want as much truth to come out as possible.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

13. Minstrel Boy is not in the habit of posting crap....

...perhaps you could help us understand your thoughts on this subject, or provide links refuting the data in the link provided by Minstrel Boy.

[havocmom]

15. Other sources backing a story is no guarantee of truth.

Plenty of hogwash has appeared in many 'reputable' publications. Still doesn't make it true. So why can't something be true even if other sources are not pouncing on it just yet? It is not like the print and broadcast media in America have a sterling of aggressive investigation of late.

[ilovenicepeople]

68. I'm sure Fox and CNN will be jumping right on it (sarcasm on 11)

If it's not echoed there is a good chance of truth.(just my observation)

[Bread and Circus]

3. The reason I believe there is a cover up is because....

you never hear about the black boxes.

Frankly, I just assumed they had been found. If they really hadn't
and there was no cover up, the media would have brought this point
up over and over and over. It's just the way they do things. Obsession
about unrecovered "black boxes" is just standard fare. If they haven't
been found, then why no chatter? :shrug:

[soothsayer]

10. I remember tv reporting that they'd been found, and then...silence

My mom and I talk about this once in awhile, as she remembers too.

[leesa]

60. Ummm...the media works for the corporate government and

our government doesn't want us to know what's on those black boxes? Just a guess based on their behavior in every phase of the 9-11 cover-up.

[DivinBreuvage]

4. Didn't they find terrorist passports that "survived the explosion"?

But no black boxes. Wow, funny world.

[latebloomer]

5. My thought exactly

It's all so CONVENIENT!

[Almost_there]

8. They found passports? Do you have a link?

I've heard all of the tin foil hat rumors, about how the fire was "too hot for jet fuel", they found passports, no Jews were at work that day, etc etc etc and a few more etc. Black boxes are not melt proof, they are SHOCK proof, and even then, they often are damaged in all sorts of crashes, and it takes the NTSB a heck of a long time to recreate the tapes. They often use magnetic tape (newer planes have digital recorders, but, 757's would use magnetic media) and I don't think tape would stand up to something hot enough to melt steel, do you? I just can't get too excited about these rumors, the newspaper is fine, but, the source is questionable. What would the black boxes show? They record: speed, position of all controls, fuel levels, all system checks. There is a seperate recorder for pilot's voice, the 2nd black box, and what would this have shown? That it was a secret coverup? These planes never left radar (except 97 when it went down in PA), they have total tracks on them all, unless that too is a coverup. I just can't accept both sides of the coin, that the government is totally incompetent AND that they are so damn clever, evil and brilliant as to pull of a coverup like this.

~Almost

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. What source do YOU have that makes the source(s) of this story....

..."questionable"? I remember reading the same story about the undamaged passport being found in the wreckage of the WTC...in fact, here is the story from the BBC:

Sunday, 16 September, 2001, 17:23 GMT 18:23 UK
Giuliani holds on to hope
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1546927.stm>

Excerpt:

Rescue workers sifting through the tons of rubble earlier discovered a passport belonging to one of the suspected hijackers a few blocks from where the World Trade Center's twin towers once stood.

By the way, it was Flight 93 that "crashed" into the Pennsylvania countryside...along with an 8-mile-long trail of debris along the flight path, and witnessses on the ground that saw flames coming from the plane as it flew overhead.

[Almost_there]

20. People also believe flight 587 was shot down.

There are "reports" of "live witnesses" seeing flames, a missile, a UFO shooting down flight 587 that crashed in Nov, 2001. That doesn't make it true. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, any defense attorney will rip an eyewtiness to shreds, usually by producing other eyewitnesses that compeltely contradict the first.

So, are you theorizing that Flight 93 was shot down? Its also very interesting about the passport discovery. Exactly who's passport was it? I head heard that, but, again, just because its in print doesn't make it 100% beleivable. They also claimed 50,000 dead, then 25,000, this article says 5,097. Were they wrong? No. They were working with the best information they had. I don't think people were lying, but, it was a time of great confusion, tremendous speculation, etc. People actually believe that Saddam acted on 9/11. That doesn't make it true. That's all that I'm saying. Just because the BBC prints "A passport was found".. well, what does that have to do with the black boxes? Black boxes are typically found in the tail of the aircraft, the hijacker (we assume) would be in the cockpit.

Flight 93 may well have been on fire. Or, maybe it was simply people recalling something they may or may not have seen. That's all. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. Much like the reports that people thought the flight that hit the Pentagon was a commuter plane, a fighter plane, a 737, a 757, a photo of this or that. Too much is inconclusive, and assuming that these fires were hot enough to melt the core & exoskeleton of the WTC (or, the bombs / incindiary devices theoried to be on the plane or already planted in the building) is it not possible, if not even likely, that a small metal box would also have been destroyed? Just my theory.

~Almost

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. You'll have to post your link indicating that....

...anyone saw a "missile" or a "UFO" shoot down Flight 93. I've come to the conclusion that some DU posters are notoriously unreliable, perhaps deliberately so.

What witnesses have stated for the record is that they saw flames coming from the fuselage of Flight 93 before it crashed. What does exist in the record was an eight mile trail of debris ALONG the flight path of Flight 93, to include one of the plane's engines found about a 1000 yards from the main impact site. At least a couple of witnesses saw a small jet in the area AFTER Flight 93 had impacted. We also know that the order was given on 911 to shoot down ANY errant airliners. Additionally, we know for a fact that the passengers on Flight 93 were turned into heroes before the full transcript could be pulled from the recorder...and now we know that there is NO evidence to support the earlier conclusion that the passengers reached the cockpit.

What witnesses have stated for the record is smoke coming from the fuselage of Flight 587 before it crashed. Early pictures from the crash site showed at least one engine lying in a parking lot some distance from the main crash site.

What witnesses stated for the record on the crash of TWA Flight 800 was at least one trail leading from the ground to the approximate location of Flight 800...followed closely by an explosion. Vapors in a large fuel tank caused the explosion which had no precedent anywhere? Don't make me laugh...what a fairy tale!

Lucky for those of us who believe that our airliners have been targets for quite some time that the Lockerbie PanAm flight was indeed discovered to have been blown-up. Otherwise, I'm sure we could pin the blame on those pilots, too.

[sangh0]

58. Umm, it was in the major papers for days

Several witnesses reported seeing something moving towards the jet before it crashed.

[Almost_there]

66. Sorry, I saw this on a TV news report in passing..

They replayed interviews with people on the scene that November, I have no links, therefore, my information is obviously suspect and faulty. As to the UFO's, I was being facetious, however, this was reported about flight 587.

Yes, I do say things tongue in cheek, however, I see people often looking to find massive conspiracy behind virtually everything in life, and that is simply ridiculous. I find the information about flight 800 and the conspiracies to border on some realm beyond paranoia. The crash occured about what, 10 miles off shore, immediately after take off. 10 miles off shore. On a July evening right off of the largest city in the country, with the single most populous county (Queens), with literally dozens of small craft, totally beyond the control of the Coast Guard (unless they were all in cahoots, and the small craft owners decided to play along with the USCG, USAF & USN), the US what? Navy? Air Force? Were shooting missiles in a live fire exercise in the flight path of the nations 3rd busiest (though at the time I think it may have been 2 behind O'Hare) airport, and they missed and shot a jumbo jet out of the sky? That's the part that I can't buy. Why are you so suspicious of an empty fuel tank? The tank wouldn't have been full for a short hop to Paris, would it? That is at least plausible. The part about the missile? Oh, come now. Who saw the missile? Some saw it fired from land, some from the air, some from a boat. Let's examine shoulder fired missiles, shall we?

Obviously, a shoulder fired missile would have come up short if fired from the beach, right? The crash happened 10 miles off shore, so, it must have happened from a boat. A stinger missile has a range of 8km, but, let's be generous and say 12km. That's still only about 7 miles, plus, toss in altitude, and it would wind up short. So, shore is out for shoulder fired. Let's go with a shoulder fired from a boat. Nice and close.

Now about that explosion. Virtually every missile launched from land (or sea in this case) is infrared, or heat seaking as it were. On a 747-100, there are 4 massive heat sources, let's call them Rolls Royce engines, RB211-524H2-T, 59,900 Lbs of thrust per engine, weighing let's just use a round number of 9,000 pounds. So, you take a warhead streaking towards a massive engine weighing 9,000 pounds (notice, the seaker does NOT go for the plane itself, since it is infrared, and designed to go for the heat source) with roughly 30 pounds of high explosives and a missile weight of 5 pounds. So, kaboom goes the rocket, proximty fused to go off about 5 feet from its target, inflicting maximum damage, shrapnel slicing the engine to bits, igniting the fuel from the now missing engine, probably ripping into the cabin if it was the inboard engine, or, maybe taking out both engines if the rocket rolled a 7.. So, now the 747.. explodes? Why? It is a plane designed to TAKE OFF with only 2 engines turning.. I think (if I recall my discovery channel correctly) it can fly and make an emergency landing with only one, though that might not be correct) So.. why did the plane blow up? The rocket would have sheered the engine to bits, torn the wing apart, and sent the thing tumbling into the ocean (assuming catastrophic wing damage, loss of hyrdraulics, etc etc), but, not I just can't see it blowing it out of the sky. It would go down, but, from the programs I've seen, commercial aircraft are designed to fly if an engine falls off the wing.

So, I don't think a small shoulder fired missile wouldn't work. Let's call in the big guns.. we'll call it a Navy SM-2, medium range radar controlled missile. Meant to go for the plane, not the engines necessarily. Proximity fused to explode just before hitting the target, several hundred pounds of high explosives and solid rocket fuel to go with it, the perfect weapon. Of course, the missile is 15 feet long, requires a navy Aegis cruiser at what? 300 feet long? to launch from, leaves a HUGE trail of black smoke in its wake from the solid propellant that everyone in New York harbor would have seen. So, yes, am I looking at these things very skeptically? Yes, I am. Why? Because I don't view life as a massive conspiracy, with every car accident, plane crash, explosion, etc as a cover up. I've read through so much information on Flight 800, I knew someone (not closely, but, I knew her) on the plane, and I still just can't see it as a Navy exercise gone awry. I don't see Flight 587 as anything other than the screw up of a plane taking off into the turbulance of another heavy craft and reacting badly, putting stress onto the tail that was never designed properly to handle that sort of lateral stress. Am I being some sort of lemming in following the reports of 9/11, not really believing all of the dozens of DIFFERENT rumors out there? That's for you to decide. But, even paranoids have enemies, and just because someone's paranoid doesn't mean they aren't being followed.

And as far as Pan Am 103, how quickly did that get out that it was a terrorist act? They found explosives, they announced it. If all these other flights were taken out by terrorists, or a ship hitting "Launch" instead of "Lunch", wouldn't you expect either a claim of responsibility from the terrorists, or a leak from some disgruntled person in the Navy? We see the folks in Iraq aren't happy, and they are killing Iraqis! Think of what they might feel if they just took out 300 of their own citizens by accident. I think it might just leak. I do enjoy your discussions, Media, you always bring a great perspective to things, and I don't want to piss you off, or make others think I am trying to discredit them or anything, but, I am very grounded in reality, it is my nature. Peace.

~Almost

[Nihil]

69. The word "Bollocks" springs to mind

Whilst it is hard to pick out prime examples from .66 ...

> ... with literally dozens of small craft, totally beyond the control
> of the Coast Guard (unless they were all in cahoots, and the small
> craft owners decided to play along with the USCG, USAF & USN),

Hint: Restricted zone. You sail into one of those and you DO get a
visit from the perimeter police.

> the US what? Navy? Air Force? Were shooting missiles in a live fire
> exercise

US Navy. Documented exercise under way (in the restricted zone).

> in the flight path of the nations 3rd busiest (though at the time
> I think it may have been 2 behind O'Hare) airport,

(Unnecessary padding for distraction)

> and they missed and shot a jumbo jet out of the sky? That's the
> part that I can't buy.

Actually they didn't miss ... that's how they shot a jumbo jet
out of the sky ...

> Who saw the missile? Some saw it fired from land, some from the
> air, some from a boat.

There are entire websites dedicated to presenting the evidence from
this event but you are correct, some on land saw the missile fired,
some on sea and some in the air. Quite a few witnesses really.

> Let's examine shoulder fired missiles, shall we?

Why? No-one is suggesting it was a shoulder-fired missile were they?
This is just a (factually inaccurate) straw man to muddy the water?

Save it.

If you choose to believe the "official history" then do so.
If you require a comfort blanket of any particular nature then you
should be allowed to retain it (though don't be surprised if, being
an adult, you are looked at as being naively childish) but please
don't start spouting the "official story" without even knowing a
little about the subject in hand.

Nihil

[Almost_there]

71. You make interesting points, none are "facts"

You're points are well taken and interesting, however, to view my remarks as "padding" and "childish" is in itself, interesting. Sure, view my remarks as "bollocks". No problem. The "restricted zone" you speak of, how do they restrict it? It is in commerical and recreational waters. Do they stop all air traffic? Evidently not. Do they stop people from viewing the area? I guess not. Did they stop sailboats, fishing boats, etc? Well, I've seen the same websites you have, and I've also seen websites concluding that aliens have not only visited this country, but, control our minds. With hard facts. Does that make it true, or, do you need to inject something known as "rationality" into the "facts" presented to you? Ask yourself a SIMPLE question..

Where is the nearest Navy Base to New York City? How far is JFK from New York City? Why would they be using New York's extended harbor for a live fire exercise? Why not the open ocean outside shipping lanes? What was the Naval ship doing in New York? If you can logically answer those, please do. Wouldn't it make sense for the Navy to use Newport News, (assuming it wasn't a sub out of Groton, right?) and not New York city? You are correct in that you may look at me as naive and childish, but, then again, I can look at you as paranoid and delusional, right? Remember: Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean someones not following you! (I love that line.. :-)

~Almost

[peekaloo]

21. and another list of "lucky' finds

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/guardian_usluckyfinds.html

[sangh0]

44. What makes the source "questionable"

is that he has never been questioned on this.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Oh...right....whatever you say.

[sangh0]

59. Is that your idea of a thought?

The FACT is that the firefighter who SUPPOSEDLY reported finding the black boxes has not been interviewed about it.

[Minstrel Boy]

14. "I just can't accept both sides of the coin,

that the government is totally incompetent AND that they are so damn clever"

Here's a distinction I think deserves to be made:

The "government" - the criminalized, self-perpetuating National Security State - is much more than the sum of the Bush Administration.

[frylock]

23. link..

Investigators discovered the passport of Satam al Suqami, one of the terrorists aboard American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane to hit the World Trade Center.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92492&page=1

[burythehatchet]

72. These conversations took place over the past 3 years

you may want to check the 9/11 forum for as many links as you can possibly use. After spending several weeks reading that forum, you will be "there", Almost_there.

[Sterling]

61. I have been making that point for years.

It was actually on of the things that turned me to LIHOP/MIHOP.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. Good find. IMHO, the NeoCons don't want the data from the...

..."black boxes" to become public because of what that data might reveal. IMHO, that's the only way the failure to make that information public can be interpreted.

Very strange, but not very surprising given the nature of this unelected governement.

[sattahipdeep]

16. DeMasi?

Efforts to locate and interview DeMasi, now said to be with the
FDNY's Marine Unit, were not successful. :shrug:

[TNOE]

17. God, why don't they just break this story already

I KNOW many reporters and the media KNOW 9/11 was a Bush/Cheney operation - so they just let a little bit out here and a little bit out there - months apart figuring that most Americans are too dumb to put it all together, and unfortunately they are right. It is BEYOND obvious now, I just wish some reporter or media had the guts to tell the American people the truth.

[sattahipdeep]

19. The 9/11 Secret in the CIA's Back Pocket

by ROBERT SCHEER

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041101&s=scheer1019

....
It is shocking: The Bush Administration is
suppressing a CIA report on 9/11 until after the
election, and this one names names. Although
the report by the inspector general's office of the
CIA was completed in June, it has not been made
available to the Congressional intelligence committees
that mandated the study almost two years ago.

....
"It is infuriating that a report which shows that high-level people were not doing
their jobs in a satisfactory manner before 9/11 is being suppressed," an
intelligence official who has read the report told me, adding that "the report is
potentially very embarrassing for the Administration, because it makes it look
like they weren't interested in terrorism before 9/11, or in holding people in the
government responsible afterward."

Bremer $20 billion
Iraq expert Paul Bremer addresses Michiana
http://www.wndu.com/news/092004/news_37581.php

As for his political views, he made it clear that he is currently unemployed
and he no longer works for the U.S government :eyes:

Krongard said he was not surprised when Goss replaced him. "I knew it was coming," he said. :eyes:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.krongard06oct06,1,3638175.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

[sangh0]

24. DeMasi talks to the press (About something else)

http://www.ufanyc.com/news_stories/newyork1/ny1_5_24_03.html

[Bandit]

22. But they found Atta's passport in pristeen condition just laying on the gr

I wonder if it was Arlen Spectre that found it?

[MetaTrope]

25. NO WAY the black boxes survived that crash!!!!!!!!!!

But yes, Satam Al Suqami's passport did. :eyes:

[MADem]

26. Yeah, it just does not smell right

...and the government's failure to put it all out there encourages conspiracy theories. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a government that put the truth, bitter though it may be, first?

[TNOE]

28. Well, that would defeat their purpose

How are you going to get Americans to go along with a war that kills their kids for your own greed over oil and money? Can't have that - so you set up a terrorist attack, kill 3,000 of your own citizens, run on that platform for 3 years, start 2 wars, grab all the oil, give the money making operations to your oil buddies and VP, and give all the weapons money to your Dad and his friends at the Carlyle Group, and the Saudi royal family with a wink/wink nod-nod.

Most right-wingers are pretty dumb - but I think they might even balk at the thought of treason by their "born again" president.

[sattahipdeep]

33. "born again"

* isn't smart............he prob thinks it
covers everything before and after.

[seemslikeadream]

35. TNOE sattahipdeep

:hi:

[TNOE]

38. Me no comprende

but that's okay - :evilgrin: :hi:

[sattahipdeep]

53. seemslikeadream

Missing You :hi:

"Ever Since" can be viewed online at http://www.johnkerry.com/video/101904_ever_since.html

Kristen Breitweiser: My husband, Ron, was killed on September 11th.

I've spent the last three years trying to find out what happened to
make sure it never happens again.

I fought for the 9/11 Commission, something George W. Bush, the man my
husband Ron and I voted for, didn't think was necessary.

And during the Commission hearings we learned the truth, we are no safer today.


I want to look in my daughter's eyes and know that she is safe, and that is why I am voting for John Kerry.

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=38377

[bearfan454]

42. You are dead on with that TNOE

Dead on.

[TNOE]

45. Thank you Bear Fan!

I got to admit - coming back and reading what I wrote - I was like hell yeah - that's simplifying a very complex matter right down to the bare bones. Patted myself on back. But thank you!

[beniciodeltoro]

47. A year ago I would have said you are crazy

I'm not saying that anymore.
Your conclusions now seem pretty obvious
and I don't know how I could have suspected
anything else.

[bushisanidiot]

27. This guy will be suicided. Write the book first then move to another

country.

When will they learn?

[TNOE]

37. I'm sure he knows the risk

some people are still willing to die for the truth and the restoration of America, believe it or not. Thank God all the cowards and fraidy cats are not on our side.

[sangh0]

43. The man has been running around for years w/o being "suicided"

The man who has supposedly claimed to have found the black boxes made that claim not long after 9/11. He has given interviews since then, and is active in a Firefighter's organization of some sort. If someone wanted to "suicide" him, they've known where to find him.

He is still alive.

[sangh0]

29. The Creepy Sides Of The 911 Truth Movement

The Creepy Sides Of The 911 Truth Movement
http://www.rense.com/general57/911.htm

Discussing first possible motivations for the 9-11 Attacks, then possible motivations of those wanting the 911 Truth exposed. New 9-11 books and film also touched upon... ____

Watch your back, ladies and gentlemen, there are some people with creepy agendas in the 911 Truth Movement, movers & shakers, and people with money.

So, you say you want to help expose 911 because you think it's the crime that will wake people in the U.S.A. up? Make them, in some vague way, rise up against it all?

Well, watch out for the people who have much more focused, organized, funded, and creepy visions of what to do once the truth is exposed. Don't assume everyone in this movement is in it for the same reasons you are. There are people who seek to expose 911 for reason X, with reason X being their true agenda. We should look at some of these reason "X's".

Previously on this website, I've cautioned that just because someone wears a 911 Truth Movement hat and identifies themselves as working for the cause doesn't mean they really want 911 truth exposed as their actions and their words may belie that label if you look close enough. And although there are more examples of that all the time, in this piece, I'm cautioning you about something different, to realize that just because someone wears a 911 Truth Movement hat AND may want the 911 truth exposed, doesn't mean they want it exposed for "good" reasons. (It's possible you could want it exposed and still be a bad guy.) ....

[sangh0]

30. The 'Red Herrings' of 9/11 - from MadCow

http://www.madcowprod.com/mc5222004.html

News stories that appeared after the San Francisco event quoted someone identified as “activist” Nicholas Levis saying the event was all about "making the connections that the mainstream media refuse to make" and exposing "the complicity of the United States Government" in the attacks.

Had Lavis unearthed some startling new documents? Found witnesses who could testify to seeing Mohamed Atta and Ollie North talking together in low voices under a street lamp on a drizzly night in D.C.?

We thought you had to actually—you know—conduct an investigation before releasing the results.

But Lavis showed that all you need to hold forth as an expert on 9/11 is a loud voice, an indignant attitude towards the current occupant of the White House, and an inexplicably cozy relationship with the conference’s sponsors.

[Sterling]

63. That is the worst op piece ever.

That is the worst op piece ever.
So the guy does not like people who think 9-11 was an inside job? That is pretty much all that he got across in the link you posted. And that he does not like some guy named Livus (SP?) that was rude to him I guess?

Why did you even bother with that? Did you think no one would read it and your point would look like it was supported with some sort of "link"?

[Dhalgren]

31. Put the truth out,

who gives a crap about who's the "good" guy and who's the "bad" guy. "Just gimme some truth" as the poet says...

I'm sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocritics
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
I've had enough of reading things
By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of hope
Money for dope
Money for rope

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of soap
Money for dope
Money for rope

I'm sick to death of seeing things
From tight-lipped, condescending, mama's little chauvinists
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth now

I've had enough of watching scenes
Of schizophrenic, ego-centric, paranoiac, prima-donnas
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of soap
It's money for dope
Money for rope

Ah, I'm sick and tired of hearing things
from uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrites
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now

I've had enough of reading things
by neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now

All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth

John Lennon

[seemslikeadream]

32. agendas

some people can't leave well enough alone.
:boring:


just to clarify I wasn't speaking of you Dhalgren

[Dhalgren]

46. I'm with you, Dream.

The Good, the Bad, and the Liars; let's worry about the liars right now...

[Minstrel Boy]

34. I wrote about this on my blog last month

here: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/09/911-truth-or-consequences.html (But you're a faithful reader, aren't you?)

A snip:

"Daniel Hopsicker blackens the third eye of the "9/11 Truth Movement" in his Sept 28 piece, COINTELPRO 9.11. This makes uncomfortable, and essential, reading.

"As my quotation marks hopefully suggest, I don't exactly embrace the term. Truth, especially with a capital "T," is elusive at the best of times, and these aren't they. We ought, rather, to be 9/11 skeptics, of not only the official story but also the competing narratives, because if we abandon critical thought and lapse into solipsistic dogma, we become nothing but evangelizing priests of a conspiracist cult. (And if that happens, then my wife is going to say 'I told you so.')"

[sangh0]

39. I posted about Nicholas Levis, hot Hopsicker

And that website is an inaccurate source.

[Minstrel Boy]

40. I'd meant to link to your second article.

But Hopsicker's critique of the 9/11 "Truth Movement" is relevant to both.

[bpilgrim]

56. ah, what does that have to do with the cover-up of the black boxes?

:shrug:

peace

[Sterling]

65. I was wondering that myself.

Hi B.

[Sterling]

64. I just want to know....

When you started basing your arguments on Rense as a source?

I am also curious as to why you are interested in the he said she said infighting of people in the stop the 9-11 cover up movement?


That has always been the least interesting aspect of 9-11 to me.

[Zhade]

74. RENSE???

You slam CounterPunch as "not credible", then rely on RENSE to make an argument?

Um, that's kinda odd, don't you think?

[Minstrel Boy]

36. A good article in Scientific American

published in September 2000 (and now, unfortunately, available only in subscription) describes the stress tests to which solid-state flight data recorders are subjected.

"Nearly 100,000 flight recorders have been installed in commercial aircraft over the past four decades. The prices of the latest models generally range from $10,000 to $20,000. Their survival rate has greatly improved in recent years as the FAA has raised the certification requirements. Although older recorders using magnetic tape were susceptible to fire damage, no solid-state device has been destroyed in an accident to date."

[drdtroit]

41. And the NTSB, which is required by law

to investigate all crash sites, for some reason never did an investigation into any of the 4 crash sites.

[stickdog]

48. Will Bunch is a Grade-A journalist.

One of a small handful left in our sad corpocracy.

[Nordic]

49. "it's unclear why there would be a cover-up"? HA !!!!! ROFLMAO

I have one word for that: DUH

[cthrumatrix]

50. get 60 minutes or CBS on this NOW

[Minstrel Boy]

51. My take on that remark was

the journalist is winking at his readers.

It reminded me of how, under a totalitarian regime, a clever journalist can convey a message through an ironic turn of phrase lost on the censor.

[Mandate My Ass]

52. My take too

Will has been calling these frauds out for months.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

57. I doubt there's anything that was found

which would implicate gov't involvement. Otherwise DeMasi would've been offed a long time ago.

The officials will simply say that they kept the black boxes under wraps for "security purposes".

But I still think they LIHOP.

[Minstrel Boy]

62. But DeMasi and the other guy don't know what the data contained

either way.

And so long as the boxes were made to disappear, it's their word against the feds.

Everyone needn't be killed to effect a cover up. Sibel Edmonds is still breathing, and she knows much more than DeMasi about 9/11's smoke and mirrors.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

73. They wouldn't have needed to, if

the "government" found data that would implicate Dumbyass' cronies. Simply knowing there IS data would be sufficient grounds for their disposal.

I wonder, though, if they could doctor it...

[VegasWolf]

67. Since the"black boxes" are actually orange, technically the

government isn't lying!. Why the hell they would want to cover
this up is beyond me, it's not exactly a mystery why, where, and
how the aircraft went down. Maybe the terrorists werte laughing
about bush on the cockpit voice recorder and the didn't want to
embarras the monkey-in-chief>

[flying_blind]

70. kick