US deploys military satellite jamming system

[rooboy]

The US Air Force quietly has put into service a new weapon designed to jam enemy satellite communications, a significant step toward US control of space.

The Counter Communications System was declared operational late last month at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, the Air Force Space Command said on Friday in emailed replies to questions from Reuters.

The ground-based jammer uses electromagnetic radio frequency energy to knock out transmissions on a temporary and reversible basis, without frying components, the command said.

"A reversible effect ensures that during the time of need, the adversary's space-based capability to threaten our forces is diminished," said Captain Angie Blair, a spokeswoman.

"Following the time of need, the space-based capabilities used by the adversary can return to its original state."

The device appears to have been put into service considerably earlier than had been projected by the Air Force as recently as February.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200410/s1231286.htm

[Maple]

1. Heh heh heh heh

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Suuuuuuuurrrrrrre. ;)

[Tempest]

3. Don't doubt the technology

It exists, and the satellites have been built.

Do a Google search if you don't believe me.

[Maple]

11. Heh heh heh

I know what the technology actually does.

Har har har

[Tempest]

13. Make you giggle insanely?

n/t

[Maple]

16. Makes me laugh out loud

as do all empty boasts.

[PBX9501]

18. Satellites can be destroyed with a simple kinetic weapon

They can be jammed with direct energy.

In the event of a real war during the cold war days we kept them on the ground to be re-launched if they were destroyed by the sovs.

The technology has been around a while.

[Maple]

21. Yeah, cause see

nobody else on the planet ever thought of that possibility right?

I mean, jamming, has never been heard of before.

Because only Americans are that smart...so there are no counter-measures.

Riiiiiight.


I would remind you that America also told the world it had 'star wars' back in the 60s. Cough cough.

[PBX9501]

27. The soviets

were playing this game long before the Chinese. Killing satellites is not technically complicated. I'm old but I've met some really old fuckers that worked on the satellite systems.

A ballistic missile can do the job. Slam a piece of metal into a satellite and its toast. Jamming is passive. You can jam you neighbors satellite TV with stuff from radio shack. If you want to see what a federal prison is like you can put a high gain antenna on a transmitter and aim it at a Hughes satellite. You could probably knock off tens of thousands of people with house current. Crude.

Smooth is accessing the signal and listening in or taking over the satellite, using it for your own uses or sending it into the atmosphere.

There are lots of countermeasures for all kinds of things. As I posted down stream. Major weapon systems are not dependent on gps to work. From the Trident D5 to the Tomahawk, and the AEGIS system.

[salvorhardin]

14. The article says

it's a ground based system.

[Tempest]

2. It doesn't just jam enemy satellites

It also jams allied satellites.

And Rumsfeld said he wouldn't hesitate to use it against our allies.

[havocmom]

6. How about the ones bringing us the news?

[Tempest]

Anything with a radio band signal

News sources hostile to the U.S. in the Middle East will be the first targets, before a war even starts.

At least that's what I would do.

[havocmom]

19. Oh goodie, the corporate take over should be about complete then.

If they can disrupt communication to that extent, we had best be training some pigeons and building signal fires. Doubt very much they would stop at blocking news sources from the Middle East.

Gads I am so glad I won't be around too much longer. I simply not fit in the world that is coming.

[Demeter]

73. I Think That's The REAL Target

Jammed the Sheep so that information doesn't flow without direction from Higher Up.

[Maple]

15. Rumsfeld?

And you continue to believe in this man's knowledge?

Snirk, snort.

[Tempest]

17. The ability to jam satellite signals has been around since the 1980s

Cuba used to jam U.S. spy satellite signals all the time.

[Maple]

23. Really? So has anti-jamming

[Xithras]

29. Anti-jamming typically utilizes some sort of spread spectrum transmission.

Anti-jammers are only effective if your opponent doesn't know all of the frequencies you are using, or if you are able to transmit with more power than his jammer. They are really only effective in situations where communications are brief.

For something like a comm sat, the enemy simply needs to jam your active frequencies, watch to see which new ones spring up, and then jam them too. Then it's simply a war to see which side has the bigger transmitter.

Of course, it's ALSO possible that they aren't directly jamming the signal at all. There are certain types of EM emissions that can actually interrupt the flow of electricity through IC's and processors. You don't HAVE to jam the radio if you can just switch it off.

[Maple]

34. Knowledge that works both ways in fact

[Dufaeth]

4. "a significant step toward US control of space."

Straight from PNAC.

[rooboy]

7. According to the article, it was Clinton policy as well. n/t

[Massacure]

5. Isn't it possible to harden the signals against jamming?

[PBX9501]

20. It is possible to encrypt the signal or shift freq. both etc

but the equipment can be destroyed with a intentional collision. Explosives work in a vacuum.

[CarolynEC]

8. I'm totally in favor of American military superiority...

... so long as we have wisdom, responsibility and a commitment to our nation's ideals to go with it.

Vote Kerry!

[havocmom]

22. Military superiority is fine and dandy but

this is gonna put internet communication, or lask there of, in the hands of who ever controls the US military too. I jsut don't have enough faith in the basic goodness of people in power to think that is a grand idea.

Get pigeons and learn about signal fires, boys & girls. The October surprise could be the end of communication as we currently know and rely on it!

[Xithras]

28. Few Internet links are routed via sat.

Comm sats are in geosync orbit, and add signifigant delay to their transmissions. Because Internet communications are measured in milliseconds, ground or undersea fiber and copper route well over 90% of the web and email traffic on Earth.

[PBX9501]

31. Space based

networking required reworking of tcp/ip communication to allow for the massive latency.

Ask anyone who has ever used it (me), it sucks.

[AmerDem]

9. I hate to say this but I read years ago that China....

didn't have plans to compete with us on the biggest and brightest cannons of the day. They instead were going to put most of their focus into jamming satellite systems ( can you say a toothless tiger nuclear arsenal? ) and computer system hacking as a way of shutting down systems before they could be used and to steal as much information as possible. I must have read this at least 4 to 5 years ago.

With this jackass in office we are sinking lower and lower at an alarming rate!

[Tempest]

12. China long since abandoned that idea

They now also plan to militarize space.

And guess what.

They're ahead of the U.S. in development.

They recently launched a satellite with military capabilities, but they're not saying what it is.

I'd guess it was also a jamming satellite.

[PBX9501]

24. China is 15 years behind.

They do not have the industry to make the components necessary for sub 3m optical sats. They do not have the structure to secure their signals or the computing power to break our (french, ger., etc) cipher systems. They do not have the capability to wage an open war with NATO or the US and win. They could damage satellites with a kinetic weapon. Any nation can do that if they can launch a rocket into space. All major weapons systems that use GPS use INS or other secondary targeting systems as well.

The systems are designed to function with out satellite communication. I worked with a company that was launching satellites while they were running around killing all the sparrows in china. (maybe not that far back but you get the drift)

[Maple]

26. The Chinese are in space

and will shortly be landing on the moon.

The Chinese invented rockets and cannon you know.

I suggest you update your knowledge of sparrow killing

[PBX9501]

30. France has been in space for over a decade

as have the Russians and a host of other nations. We stuck spam in a can when I was a few years old. I remember the moon walk when I was in high school.

China is a wonderful country with a long history of commerce. China likes the fortune it is making from selling us cheap TV sets and electronics.

They do not have a fraction of the capability of NATO or the US to fight any kind of open war. They have no interest in that.

If they land a man on Mars the facts will be the same. They do not have the technological base in a host of systems required to win an open war with any western nation. But they have no interest in that.

[Maple]

32. LOL Pride goeth before a fall

and overconfidence kills.

As Rome discovered, long before you.

And speaking from a nation bogged down in tiny Iraq, I doubt you have a clue what China is capable of, and you certainly can't beat her.

[PBX9501]

36. We have no interest

in beating anyone in chine. China is a MASSIVE trading partner. I have seen china buy billions of dollars of equipment from my former employer.

I know what we are capable of. I spent half of my adult life working on the electrical designs of major systems in the field. I am a retired EE and know my way around inertial guidance and gps.

LOL all you want but my old man spent plenty of time in Korea and after we killed a million Chinese they got tired of being killed.

I know what they are capable of, I have been there and stayed for months. I've done business there. I know they are not interested in a global war with the US. At least not a shooting war, an economic competition, sure.

Iraq is not an open war. It is a stupid mess. But don't mistake restraint for weakness. Israel could bulldoze the west bank and Gaza but does not(example).

In a full open air, naval, and ground war with ww2 rules of engagement china would loose.

Like I said, china is not interested in a war. And Shepherd is dead.

[Maple]

37. I agree it would be much smarter to trade

with China than to fight.

However, you are living in the past, and have no idea of current Chinese capabilities. Most countries don't announce what they do or have.

Korea was over half a century ago.

This is not your father's China.

I didn't say anything about China 'wanting' to attack anyone. They have always been an isolated insular nation.

That doesn't mean they can't defend themselves, bigtime, if someone attacks them.

And military capability is not the same as winning a war.

You could physically nuke Baghdad too...but there is a reason why you don't. Win the battle, lose the war.

No, my friend...China would not lose in a war with the US.

We are all a looooong way away from WWII.

[Squatch]

39. "They have always been an isolated insular nation" Snarf...

[Maple]

40. Indeed they have

and they are also the longest lasting civilization on earth.

Perhaps because they don't go in for the mano a mano stuff.

[Squatch]

42. ***swoosh*** and the point just misses her...

Longest lasting civilization, eh? Geography and anthropology are not your strong points, are they?

[Maple]

44. Belief and bragging are wonderful things Squatch

not reality, but interesting nonetheless.

However, China had printing presses, oil wells and cannon while you were scratching your underarms in a cave and saying ook.

[Squatch]

46. I still do those things. Heh, heh, heh

But, only when my wife is not around.

[PBX9501]

48. And that did them a lot

of good when Japan invaded and killed 6 million people. Guess they were sleeping for 10 years.

China is a great country.

[Maple]

50. All countries have their ups and downs

Look at your own for example

China has been around as a civilization for over 5000 years, and your country is how old?

[PBX9501]

52. I'm not knocking china

it is a great place. I have been many times.
I am saying you are misinformed. Jane's and FAS are a good place to get a big picture of a nations capability in an open war.

But like I said China and the US do massive amounts of trading and neither one has an interest in a war. BTW heard anything from Taiwan? Nope.

[Squatch]

53. Don't you mean Chinese Taipei?

http://www.etaiwannews.com/Taiwan/2004/10/30/1099105470.htm

[PBX9501]

55. Yep.

The boat is not rocking...Lots of dollars in the bottom acting like ballast.

[Maple]

58. It is not necessary to repeat in every post

that the US and China don't want to go to war.

We know that.

My point is, that the US doesn't have the superiority it thinks it has, or claims to have.

Against anyone, China included.

And bragging won't change that reality.

[Squatch]

59. Of course not, only Canadians can lay claim to that...

"...doesn't have the superiority it thinks it has...."

[Maple]

60. Canadians know better

Some Americans don't

[Squatch]

61. I hear the price on Ivory Towers is going up...

what did you buy yours for?

[Maple]

62. In America it certainly has

Canadians are much closer to the global realities...as is the rest of the world.

[PBX9501]

69. I repeat

because if I don't being a FNG when someone pulls my posts they will think I am a "warmonger" or such. I like to make it clear.

Not meant to insult.

I am not bragging but factually addressing misinformation you posted.

[PBX9501]

45. Theory

Alright this post is about a theoretical conflict.

Here goes.

China has no Aircraft carriers. They have no way of sustaining strikes on the US. They have no ability to project air power. We have layers of air defense that would prevent their bombers from coordinating conventional strikes. Thanks to mother Russia, these systems are still in place.

They operate around a centralized soviet air model. Their aircraft are soviet era knockoffs and they avionics, missile systems, and training is below the standards of the USAF.

Their surface navy is not even close to the Pacific fleet in capability alone. Assuming they destroy the pacific fleet, there is another one in the Atlantic.

They have no ability to counter naval pickets with missiles that can destroy aircraft over hundreds of miles. They have no ASW system that can detect attack subs that would destroy their navy.

They have no way to detect b2 or f117 aircraft.

The nuclear scenario is much simpler. We can kill every man, woman, and child in china in less than 26 minutes. The unholy trinity is still around and still acts as a deterrent and can be brought to bear with 18 Ohio class subs, the MX systems, and gravity and cruise missile based weapons.

The only foreseeable way the US would enter a war with China was if it were attacked first. In this case the mindset would be similar to ww2. Life would be lost on a massive scale from conventional bombing, round the clock. Winning the peace would not be an issue, the lemay strategy would be in place.

Back to reality.
China has no interest in a war period. I have spent time there and seen the cities and the countryside where many people don't have power and get their water from a pump. War is counterproductive for them.

[Maple]

47. Really?

You can kill 2 billion people in 26 minutes?

Amazing.

Not if all your cities were gone in 15, and yes China is quite capable of that.

Or...they could just switch to the Euro, not buy T-bills and yank their investments.

Kiss yer ass goodbye either way.

[PBX9501]

51. Read up

and come back. I'm not trying to be rude but FAS is free and Jane's has considerable information on the Chinese stockpile and delivery systems. They also have information on ours. Read up on Ohio class and MX.

They do not have the ability to target every city or strategic site with ballistic missiles. They are not on par with the US or Western Europe with military capability.

Even if they did launch they would not be able to sustain 2300 thermonuclear explosions from the Ohio fleet. That assumes they destroyed the MX silos and nuclear equipped navy.

Here is the straight dope. If we monitor a heat bloom and then a missile with a ballistic arc coming here from china we launch before it (they) hit. 3000 megatons is enough to kill 2 billion people.

They don't want to die. So they will not fire first. If they do the economy will not be my concern.

You do not understand the fundamentals of how the systems work and you can not make an informed comment.

The basics here is that China has no interest in initiating a war and neither do we.

[Maple]

57. Janes knows what everyone knows

but Janes doesn't know what the Chinese do.

I'm sorry, but China could take you out.

Militarily, or economically. Both methods are equally effective in wiping out a country.

And no, you can't kill 2 billion people. Enough with the macho bragging.

Yes, I do know how the systems work...and you STILL can't hit an incoming missile even though you've been bragging that you can since the 60's.

[PBX9501]

67. We have stumbled

into one of the few areas in which I have firsthand expert knowledge.

You brought this up, I have stated over and over the US and China have no interest in a war.

1. over 3000 mt would kill 80% of the population in China. 20kt wiped out a city. 3000 300kt thermonuclear individual hits from subs alone is sufficient to cause collapse, and global impact. If you take time to imagine this is most disturbing. Crops become un edible after they pick up radioactive elements from the soil. Water is contaminated. Anything with a microchip that is not EMP hardened is destroyed. All electrical transmission and generation is gone.

2. Jane's have accurate information on weapon systems and capabilities. It is the standard for non classified information. The intelligence communities read Jane's. Naval Proceedings and other reference material can give you a glimpse at their tactics. IE if you want to see that the Chinese have no nuclear powered aircraft carriers that is in Jane's. I did not say china is weak. But the Navy is slow to change, they are still designed to defeat a Soviet threat. The soviet threat was MUCH more powerful than what china brings to the table. I can discuss broadly what I know for sure. Our electronic systems used for many different applications are second to none. They consist of joint projects with other countries and I can not go any further. I do know china is watched and listened to.

3. no one is talking interception. I am discussing massive counterstrike options. Systems I help assemble sit in space and look for thermal signatures from ballistic or cruise missiles. Radar systems track the apogee of many thousands of objects in earth orbit. Objects that are very small. In the event of a launch from China, the old system would do its job. NCA would follow through and authorize release of nuclear weapons in less than 26 minutes. The time it takes a ballistic missile to follow its arc and hit this country. The Chinese I met like china, like I like the US they don't want to have their nation destroyed any more than I do.

I helped design major components of the systems and know my way around guidance, physics, and radar. I managed many defense projects. I retired from one of the largest defense contractors in the US. If I named them you would have no idea of the work they did. It was a fun job for an EE, for a kid from a rural state. I retired and do social work now for a small county in NC.

This is published information (i write this for my interests and not to insult you).

That being said, have you spent time in china? I have. They are a wonderful country with an amazing culture. Business on both sides of the ocean realize trade is MUCH better than war. The only event that would cause a war there IMHO is a Chinese first strike.

I do not like militarism. However I do believe that the US should maintain technological superiority in all aspects of computing, telecom, and of course military systems.

[Voice_of_Europe]

41. Agree

Don't wake the Dragon...
And don't underestimate the sheer numbers... they about have 3 times the US population? More?

If! IF they wake up you will not want to be their enemy..

[Maple]

49. When China is fully 'online'

and I don't just mean on the web, but fully up and running, no one will want to be in her way.

It'll make Japan of the 80s look like nothing

[PBX9501]

54. A market unrivaled.

Since the opium wars. China will be a massive market, but for markets to work lanes of trade have to exist. Free trade is mutually beneficial. War is not.

[Maple]

56. A producer unrivaled

of everything from the most basic to the most advanced items.

[PBX9501]

68. Supply is great

A war would destroy their demand! I hated economics and back then never figured out why it was relevant to my studies, I do now.

[Xithras]

35. Uh, yes they DO.

There's a reason why China gets more global R&D dollars than the U.S. nowadays, and that's because all of the leading technology research labs are being built THERE today. If you don't think the Chinese government knows every single thing that's learned in those labs, even the foreign owned ones, then you are seriously out of step with reality.

If the Chinese have the ability to make and manufacture electronics with traces .1 micron wide, then they surely have the ability to manufacture or develop anything else they need.

In case you didn't notice, our corporations handed China everything they needed to modernize, and they are now major players in just about every form of manufacture globally. I've always found it funny that freepers like to whine about Clinton giving missile guidance secrets to China while defending "free trade's" right to teach them how do build the rocket motor, the superstructure, and everything else needed to "modernize" their military capabilities.

[PBX9501]

38. We sold them electrical generating and transmission equipment..

Our division worked on government projects and all work and finished product was private, and still is. Just because a company does business in china does not mean they have access to the entire company. No one transfered anything to china. The Clinton thing involved the w-86 warhead. It never happened.

Chinese avionics are 15 years behind ours. Their air force is based around soviet systems. I spent a lot of time with our electronic systems. I can point you to Jane's for more information.

China is sources for unskilled and semi skilled labor. Japan still corners the market on sophistication and fabrication capability.

You want a cheap TV china is fine. You want high end CCD chips you go to Japan.

The US and China have no interest in a war.

[salvorhardin]

10. I smell $6.2 Million worth of bullshit

There's no way a ground based system could knock out communications of all enemy sattelites at once, nor could it account for all modes of communication. Also, any such system would affect U.S. sattelites as much as enemy sattelites.

If a sattelite is in geosynchronous orbit, it appears to be above a fixed point on Earth. So how can a sattelite jamming system in the U.S. affect sattelites in geosynchronous orbit over, say, China or India.

Many spy sattelites are in fast moving polar orbits. These birds spend half their time over the opposite side of the world. Again, how could they be jammed when they are over the horizon?

Also, what is to prevent sattelites from using other modes of communication such as lasers?

[havocmom]

25. If they could deploy the system now, wouldn't that mean 4 years ago

they must've had a pretty decent working model? Am thinking Wellstone here. Anybody else? Any system that could close down a satellite from the ground should have an easy time messing with the controls of a plane.

[bain_sidhe]

33. Take that, globalsecurity.org!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/al_qa_qaa-imagery4.htm

Not that immediately debunking Rummy's "mystery trucks did it before we got there" satellite photo had anything to do with this system. Just that such debunking probably just got a lot harder.

[Sin]

43. So basicly

You can jam the jaming signal with an anti jaming device that could possible be jamed with a anti anti jaming device thats only if the jaming signal isnt to highly advance witch would make the anit jaming device inoprative and the anti anti jaming device non nessary.
This could adversley impact the development of an anit anit anit jaming device.
Uhhh im getting flah backs of space balls "Sir we've lost the bleeps the creeps and the sweeps." :)

[hunter]

63. The future is low-tech. It will always be low-tech.

The high techs destroy one another in the blink of an eye, or the low techs find the right monkey wrench to throw into the fancy machines. It's always easier to tear something down than it is to build it up.

High tech societies are extrordinarily delicate. Look at the hole where the World Trade Center used to be and think about that.

It is even likely our civiliztion could be destroyed by a mindless flu virus or bacteria that evolves naturally.

Look at bacteria -- in less than fifty years they've neutralized every antibiotic we've thrown at them. There are now strains of tuberculosis and staph bacteria that can't be killed by any drugs we've got. It's evolution at work. Bacteria have been in the game for billions of years, and we were ignorant to think that penicillin and other simple antibiotics we stole from the fungi toolkit would hold them back for long.

Maybe when I see our high technology clean up the mess in Iraq, then maybe I'll be impressed... But I suspect it's going to turn out like Viet Nam did. The guy in Iraq who is putting a bomb under the road or in a car really doesn't worry about satellites.

[Maple]

64. LOL you are suffering from 'future shock' friend

You have not yet begun genuine high tech.

But you are very high tech compared to cavemen.

And the world is doing just fine.

Just restrain the guy trying to put you back in the caves...and I mean Bush.

The guy in Iraq putting bombs in a car is very aware of satellites...the fact you don't know that he is, is what's killing you.

You think you're still in some tribal warfare state, and that others don't have your intelligence or knowledge.

Surprise!

[hunter]

66. He's aware of them in such a way that he might deceive them.

He certainly doesn't have to worry about his own satellites, since he hasn't got any.

Bush is playing drunken Saturday night shoot-em-up poker in a world of chess players and game theorists. Bush will be remembered as the worst United States president ever.

[PBX9501]

71. All right

I have had enough of your ego. Here is a clue x4.

Iraq is a guerrilla war. It is a fuckup. Bush is a fuckup. If you want an idea of a properly executed modern military reference gw1.

Iraq had modern Russian air defense, like china. A modern mechanized army with t-72 tanks, and an air force. Which we systematically destroyed. Taking a kill ratio of half that in GW1 China has no chance. Any war with china would not be guerrilla, it would be open.

China does not have the ability to run an AWACS coordinated air war. They have no stealth systems. It has no modern navy. I could continue but you can read up and post details if you like.

I don't know your background but I was designing high speed switches and modeling systems on mainframes when china was still trying to build a functioning power grid.

I know tech, the internet you are attached to , DARPA us, the switch and router moving your packets, Cisco, Juniper (no rival in china, even if they did try to knock off an ios), the electricity in your home, generated by US equipment and if not we held the patent before it ended. MVS, UNIX, c, TCP/IP, ATM, Fiber attached SAN switching, quantum cryptography, night vision, thermal imaging, radar imaging(including radar Interferometry,remember that cool picture in NG showing the tributaries feeding the Nile river, one of my children took that..) distributed computing, human genome project, and supercomputing. We have built the most sophisticated systems on the face of the planet bar none.

And if you want to go low tech. The small block V8, the assembly line, and the best rifles in the world. Which a Canadian used to kill someone at 2300m. The list goes on.

That is why China spy's on us, to learn how we do things.

[Arcturus]

65. Raspberry.

There is only one man who would DARE give me the raspberry...

[Gin]

70. Are we the only people on the planet who could think up this kind of

system? Others could use the same technology to jam our signals. Then we would be up shit creek without a paddle.

We created the nuclear nightmare....and it will come back to bite us.
This technology if used against other countries...will come back to bite us..

Come on all you creative minds...create new renewable sources of energy. Do something really "constructive" for once. (IMHO)

[PBX9501]

72. The soviets

were capable of this in the late 60 and continue to have the ability to do this. Any nation that can orbit a satellite can destroy one. Any nation with power can jam one or attempt to.

The technology created its self all over the world. The History of the Atomic Bomb by Rhodes describes it in earnest.

The technology has been used and hopefully will never be used again.

[gulfcoastliberal]

74. Forget satellites. Most shit is now carried via optical cables

This means nothing. Although they have found NSA/CIA spy boxes attached to undersea copper cable, supposedly they still haven't come up with a way to tap into all those glass strands.

[PBX9501]

75. Data in motion

is the hardest to get. Data at rest is much easier. Fiber can be tapped with an optical tap or a device in the line. Some folks were playing around with quantum encryption, MIT or Caltech. That is the future of secured communication.

[Moderator]

76. kick

:kick: