Ford, GM Suffer As Their Japanese Rivals Surge

[hatrack]

DETROIT - "The nation's two largest automakers said demand for new vehicles fell 5 percent last month from a year ago. The trend almost assures heftier consumer incentives to come, even as Japanese rivals Toyota, Honda and Nissan rode a slew of new products to double-digit gains.

No. 1 automaker General Motors Corp. said Wednesday that truck sales were off 4.6 percent and that car sales down 5.5 percent in October.

Sales of Ford, Lincoln and Mercury trucks were up 3 percent at No. 2 automaker Ford Motor Co., but the demand wasn't nearly enough to offset a 22 percent decline in car sales - a familiar trend for Ford this year.

EDIT

Despite continued strong sales of its Chrysler 300C, the Chrysler Group was outsold last month by the U.S. division of Toyota Motor Corp. Toyota, including Lexus and Scion, reported 170,815 sales, versus 170,169 for the Dodge, Jeep and Chrysler brands. Toyota, whose overall sales were up 13 percent, trails the Chrysler Group by about 125,000 sales in the United States for the first 10 months of the year."

EDIT

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/story/5B1019BEA856F14D86256F42000FA41A?OpenDocument&Headline=Ford,+GM+suffer+as+their+Japanese+rivals+surge

[samwisefoxburr]

1. *hugs my Toyota Tercel with good gas mileage*

I don't think I would ever buy American.

[kysrsoze]

2. That's because their cars completely suck

Quality has come along a bit, but not nearly enough (they get too rattly and loose as time goes on, plus the mechanical problems). Add to that they are butt-ugly and poor performers. I'll never buy an American car again.

Once the SUV market goes, they're going to be in serious trouble. Chrysler has evidently seen the light and is making a little more exciting cars. The Hemi V8s with displacement on demand are a nice touch too. Hope they hold up over time.

[Blue_Tires]

5. the corvette is a great car

blue_tires, the lifelong corvette fan

[kysrsoze]

23. Yeah, the new Z06 is pretty bad. I respect it. It's an exception

Can't wait to see it drag race the new Cobalt. What is that about?

[lectrobyte]

6. Chrysler does seem to be trying something different, like their

PT Cruiser. And Prowler. And what's the big one? Viper. Glad to see it's not all about SUV's for at least one company.

[cubsfan forever]

15. Viper gets about 6 mpg

Race-car toy for the tax-cut boys.

Professor 2

[LSK]

24. my 98 corvette gets 18mpg

Vipers suck in many ways.

[Blue_Tires]

53. do you post on any of the corvette message boards??

i used to go there, but it's like FR-lite

[trogdor]

34. I heart my Honda Accord.

112,000 miles and still runs and rides like new. The trunk lid has a little rust, but I live in the Lake Effect Zone. Most American cars the same age as my Accord have dissolved up here by now.

GM and Ford can bite my shiny metal ass. /bender

[Wright Patman]

3. This is why we have fat 'defense contracts'

to make tanks, APCs and hummers so these failing automakers can get enough from the Pentagon to subsidize their losses in the real world.

[tanyev]

4. Got rid of the last American made car

I will ever drive last year. Chevrolet Impala. I really liked it until the transmission had catastrophic failure and died in the middle of an intersection with only 30K miles on it. I'm now driving hubby's old Subaru Outback. We got him a VW Jetta diesel. When that's paid off, I get a hybrid!

[freestyle]

17. I really like my Jetta diesel

It's a wagon and just swallows up loads of stuff. There is almost no good reason for anyone to drive an SUV, especially with all the 4WD cars available now for those in bad climates.

[Kolesar]

20. Those diesels emit a lot of Nitrous Oxide smog & greenhouse gas emissions

That high fuel economy comes with a cavieat. The high compression causes atmospheric nitrogen to oxidize in the cylinder.

VW dealers won't tell you that.

[trogdor]

36. Energywise, diesel is cheap to make.

WAY more so than gasoline. I'll bet that gallon for gallon, the pollution produced by cracking diesel and similar sized molecules to make gasoline is greater than that of modern diesel-burning automobiles like the Jetta, only the oil companies won't tell you that, either.

[Kolesar]

43. I would like to know more about that

It makes sense to look at the whole process from wellhead to the stratosphere. I read a fair number of articles and message boards on the subject, but I did not see that point made yet.

It would make sense to assess life cycle energy costs of the automobile. Diesel engines do last longer, so the automobile would last longer, too.

[Canadian_moderate]

46. Diesel cars have 50% market share in some parts of Europe

Eco-diesel is becoming quite popular and it is a renewable source of energy. From what I can tell, most western European cities have less smog than North American cities.

Regardless, for cities, effective mass transit is the way to go.

[Neshanic]

7. Falshback to late 70's. Learn anything? Guess not.

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. Tough ass you bloated motherfuckers!

hope they go bankrupt.

[Skidmore]

13. Ahhh, beat me to it.

[Iceburg]

9. Just got rid of my 2002 jeep ... no more stinkin American vehicles

in this yard ... got me a barnd-spankin new KIa Sorento EX-Luxury.
No more American conferences, holidays unless they are in NYC.

[iowa_democrat]

10. tried chryslers

had both the ram 1500 and the town and country minivan. Just finished a deal to by a honda odyssey. problems with both vehicles started almost as soon as they were out of warranty. my 96 rodeo is still going stron at 110K no probs. will not be buying any more american or german-american cars.

steve

[tokenlib]

11. They "domestics" have done it to themselves...

They need to bring out the hybrids... They need to promote them--and get the cost down. Gas prices are high enough to make them practical and cost effective.

Does anyone know how the Ford Escape hybrid is doing?? I hope the sales of that vehicle back up my assertions.

Toyota and Honda are trying to catch the wave of the future--and it is time for our "domestics" to do the same.

[Kolesar]

21. Hybrids are a good car for people who drive stop & go in heavy traffic

That is where they get great fuel economy compared to other cars. Otherwise, they perform like other small cars.

[FDRrocks]

12. Just what our economy needs...

the Auto Industry going belly-up.

[Skidmore]

14. That needed to happen a long time ago

since they insist on being dinosaurs.

[FDRrocks]

18. No argument there...

it's just that Bush alone is going to do so much damage to our economy in the next 4 years, its uncomforting to think such an important industry could sink.

[cubsfan forever]

16. To those who voted for

Chicken George: Hungry? Eat your SUV!

Professor 2

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. GOOD! And you know what else?

Renault and Peugeot are making BIG inroads here in Brazil. Ford and GM are spinning wheels.

[kysrsoze]

25. Sheesh, look how Renault turned Nissan/Infiniti around.

They're growing like mad. I remember Renault's old, crappy cars. No longer. Seems like a perfect marriage for the two car companies.

[llmart]

22. Here's a little insight for all of you here....

My husband is an engineer at Chrysler. They supported Bush 100%. The have Repug propaganda piped in on their TV screens all day long (Orwellian anyone?). We get a discount because he's an employee - doesn't amount to much. Chrysler puts out crap. Take my word for it. My son had a Concorde because his father wanted him to buy a Chrysler. It was the worst car he ever owned and he put thousands of dollars into it in the first 5 years. He now owns an Acura and loves it. I can tell you many, many stories about how they skimp on quality. My husband hasn't gotten a raise since 2001. He was told he had to work one hour free overtime per day. The "or else" is implied.

Buy foreign if you want a good car.

[ydya]

26. Do I hear LAYOFFS? Enjoy your "values". Buh-bye

[d_r]

30. this is my first time posting, but not a trouble maker

I just wanted to say that Michigan is a blue state. We got a lot of support from the unions for dems.

Toyotas are made in the US, often in red states. Saturns are made in a red state.

Southerners don't care about the economy in blue states.

[kysrsoze]

47. Well, I can't argue with that. I blame the management, not the workers.

As for the imports in red states, we're lucky to have the jobs anywhere in the U.S. We screwed up big time by not looking into alternative fuels and the infrastructure to supply them. That would have been a huge boon for the U.S. Oh well.

Oh, and BTW... welcome to DU :toast:

[sendero]

52. Exactly...

.... it is not poor worker habits that make shoddy cars, teh Japanese have proven that - most Japanese cars sold here are made here.

The problems are:

1) Lousy engineering where quality is sacrificed for cost

2) Lousy management where quality is not that important

3) Lousy planning - being whipsawed by the vagarities of the oil market every time. Those big SUVs and whales they've all scrambled to build are going to be sitting on the lots soon. Caught with their pants down again because they are short-term thinkers like most American businessmen.

I own a Ford truck and it has been a good vehicle so for. But I know that in a couple years I'll start having trouble with it, if I had bought a Toyota I wouldn't.

[0007]

27. Love my Toyota, good gas mileage and never any trouble.

Never go back to GM again.

[B3Nut]

28. I like my Escort ZX2...

But it's more Mazda than Ford, being based on the 323 platform. Much tighter, even at 127K, than the competing Cavalier or Neon. That said, my wife's 98 Neon has been a pretty solid performer, cheap to run. My biggest complaint about that car is that on long trips the seat makes my butt hurt. :D

I'd love a Jetta Diesel wagon, you can run biodiesel in those if petroleum-based fuels ever become scarce. My first car was an '81 Rabbit diesel...almost couldn't get out of its own way but was extremely cheap to drive.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Spike from MN]

41. I have an '89 Probe

that, like your Escort, is more Mazda than Ford. It has been a great car. 190,000 miles and it gets 33 MPG in the city. Getting rid of it for something new would get me car payments AND crappier mileage. No thanks. I think I'll keep what I have. When she finally does go, I'll most likely opt for a hybrid of some sort.

[msanthrope]

29. Took my last Honda Civic to 170k with no major repairs....

I'll take the new one even farther....

[schultzee]

32. Have an 83 Rabbit Diesel VW that has 260,000 but body is falling

apart. Saving to buy a Toyota Echo. Our Ford Ranger only gets 23 to 26 HWY>

[noamnety]

31. lots of indirect UAW bashing here

The unions were solidly behind Kerry, as was the motor city.

The fault lies with government standards, which in every other country forces new technologies to emerge. Here, the lobbyists and big business are hand in hand with the oil companies to ensure that doesn't happen, and we keep gas prices lower than every other country, to ensure there is no real motivation to convert to better cleaner fuel.

Have a little heart here and understand the people that will be hurt most by this are some of the people that gave it their all and lost just like the rest of us. My Kerry meetups were in a union hall, laborfest hosted an Edwards rally. So while I'm not a union member, I know I owe them a debt of gratitude here.

[schultzee]

33. We love the UAW and unions, I don't think anyone is intentionally

bashing. They are bashing the Engineers and Ford management who decide to make cars with low gas millage.

[trogdor]

38. Low gas mileage and corners cut everywhere.

I am sure GM and Ford could produce a sedan that competes with the Honda Accord tomorrow if they wanted to, but they won't. Is it the UAW's fault? Hell no. Those guys just put the cars together, and I'm sure they do the best they can with what they have to work with.

The cars are designed to fall apart at 60,000-80,000 miles, and be slapped together as cheaply as possible, quality be damned, from steel provided by the lowest bidder. Come up here to the Lake Effect Zone and see what five year old GM and Ford cars look like after being driven over road salt four to five months out of the year. It ain't like it never snows in Detroit. Hondas and Toyotas run forever because they're designed that way from the inside out. Every generation Honda and Toyota engine is cleaner, more powerful, more durable, and gets better mileage than the generation before it. No US auto manufacturer can make that claim.

[Kolesar]

45. I have my Ford Ziebart-ed and polymer-coated every year

It is 4.5 years and 60,000 miles old and it looks "almost new". I live in the "snowiest locale this far south in the USA". They slather the streets with salt by the barge-load here in Cleveland.

I keep buying Big-3 USA automobiles because unions financed Americans Coming Together PAC, who sponsored my Wellstone Action training.

[DBoon]

39. The UAW makes Toyotas

in Fremont CA.

Shitty cars are management's fault. The same workers can just as easily make good cars people want to buy.

[hatrack]

48. Not at all

It's not the UAW's fault, and the guys on the line are just doing the best they can with what they've got.

It's management & marketing clowns not investing in basics like line maintenance, materials, design and processing. It's also their fault for pimping trucks and SUVs (and hey, they've got to make a profit), but inexcusably at the same time and during year after year of record profit refusing to make any serious investment in efficiency, hybrids or improved diesel engines.

Now, with gas around $2 in most of the country, and unlikely to move much lower for the forseeable future, we get bullshit from GM about their hydrogen fuel cell PR campai . . . I'm sorry, their hydrogen fuel cell cars (available sometime in 2025) and from Ford about their one hybrid SUV (available now a full seven years after the Prius first arrived in Japan). Somehow, when you see ads offering $12,000 ad $15,000 in the paper for Navigators and Yukons, you get the feeling that people aren't going to be buying too many land yachts any time soon.

Detroit's corporate "leaders" squandered a SEVEN-YEAR lead to the Japanese, and they are unlikely to ever get it back. Honda's third hybrid (the Accord) arrives here in December, while Toyota will have two more (the Highlander and a hybrid Lexus) by early spring 2005.

Detroit management missed the boat. The only problem is that the people who are going to be swimming for their lives when the big boat sinks are the people who just built the cars & trucks. The guys who made the bad decisions, they're already set up for life, and they don't care. They don't have to.

[devilgrrl]

35. Toyota's & Honda's are built in AMERICA!!!!! Not the Big 3!

Tough titty Deeeeetroit! :nopity:

[Canadian_moderate]

40. My Mazda6 was made in Flatrock, Michigan

Great car by the way and the 4 cylinder engine does quite well with the manual transmission. Good gas mileage and pretty decent power.

Strange that Ford is expanded its plant in Oakville, Ontario if it's struggling that much.

[Squeegee]

60. Not entirely true

My Honda S2000 was built in Japan. BTW, it's the best car, quality and performance wise, that I've ever owned!

[DELUSIONAL]

37. I wouldn't take a Ford or GM vehicle if it was given to me

The last GM vehicle we have was a lemon from the beginning -- the engine block was drilled so incorrectly that no instruments were needed to see the errors. The whole engine had to replaced at 10,000 miles --and GM did not compensate us. This truck is still in service but when it dies this will be the last Ford or GM we will own.

Our Toyota and Honda have on the other hand have been superior to any American made vehicle we have ever had.

So there is a reason GM and Ford can't sell their crap.

Oh by the way our Honda was made in America.

[Sparky McGruff]

58. I had a Chevy Cavalier in college...

It was Mom's car. The power steering actuator locked up as she was exiting the freeway, and she almost drove it into a ditch. She refused to drive it ever again.

GM refused to admit it was a manufacturing defect, even though it was apparently well known that this was a serious safety problem for this car. My brother and I replaced it ourselves, so I had a "new" car with less than 20K miles on it. By 30K, the paint was peeling off the entire car. By 45K, the transmission was starting to "buck" and "kick", quickly self destructing. I was familiar with the feeling of a transmission going out, because our family had two previous Chevy's with transmissions that burned up.

I now own a toyota with 110K miles on it. It's showing a little wear, but generally doing quite well. It still gets good mileage, better than anything GM sells. I will never buy another GM product as long as I live.

I'd love to support the UAW, and their workers. But, as long as their management pushes gas-guzzling crap, with zero focus on quality, I will probably buy another Toyota to replace mine when it dies.

[appal_jack]

42. keep hope alive

I know that a lot of lousy American cars have been made over the past few decades, BUT

My '87 Ford Ranger has 185k miles on it and runs like a top. It was made in a Twin Cities UAW plant, which makes me proud. That generation of Ranger really benefited from the Mazda parts & know-how, plus Ford's wonderful 2.9l V6.

My Dad has a 2004 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD with the Duramax Diesel/Allison tranny combo. It also has a UAW label on it. So far so good. I'm hoping that the Isuzu diesel know-how & quality seeped in. We use it for construction & farming, so it's not one of those trophy trucks. And it better last long after it's paid off (which will NOT be anytime soon).

Unless I have a really, really bad experience with UAW/American trucks, I will try to stick with union-made trucks (though the Toyota Tacomas sure are nice. Anyone know if any of Toyota's plants are union?)

-app_farmer
growing organic vegetables in the NC high country

[d_r]

44. Lansing, MI

Here is a local newspaper story of how that plays out in Lansing Mi - Ingham county was solid Kerry, 100% democrat in local elections, and one of only two counties in Mi to vote against gay marriage amendment:

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041104/NEWS03/411040351/1004

[Beaverhausen]

49. Ford is using Toyota's hybrid technology for their new hybrids

I think Ford is making some Explorers bybrids, right?

By keeping up with new technology the imports are staying ahead.

[tabasco]

50. American car companies have not supported this country...

by building and marketing fuel efficient vehicles. Therefore, I have no reason to support them. I was a "buy American" guy for a long time, but these SUVs and wasteful vehicles have turned me off to American cars. We were shown in the 70's how dependent the USA was on foreign oil, and the car companies have done NOTHING to help wean us off that teat. Screw them. Japanese companies have done more to help this country than American companies.

[LeftyMom]

51. I like our American car- a Saturn SW1

We haven't got any of the problems that other posters have mentioned. It's great on gas, thanks to the polymer body panels it still looks nearly brand new at seven years old and 110k miles, has good safety ratings and all the storage we need. It has great acceleration for a four speed auto and we never have trouble getting up to freeway speeds. The ride is pretty smooth altough we sit a little lower than I would prefer. We have had no maintainance issues other than scheduled tune-ups and two blownout tires when we ran over road debris.

On the other hand, I do not care for the turning radius and the seats aren't the most comfortable on long trips. I would prefer a three-point seatbelt in the rear center, but this wasn't common in '97's. Since we will have a carseat there for the forseeable future, this is a minor issue.

All in all, we got a really great used car for under 3K because of american car phobia. A comparable import wagon (we were initially looking at Subarus, but also Camry and Accord wagons) would have cost at least twice as much for that year. What we spent would have got us something in the '89-'91 range, with the higher maintainance costs, milage and the lower safety ratings and fuel economy one could expect from a significantly older vehicle.

My point is that the lower cost of a used american car may make it a more practical option for some. I would prefer a Prius or a Passat wagon running B100 but for what I had to spend, my car was a great choice. The fact that it was made by american workers paid a union wage by an american company does not hurt, either.

[JPace]

54. Thank you Lefty Mom.....

"The fact that it was made by American workers paid a union wage by an American company does not hurt, either."

There's an awful lot of bitterness and criticism on this thread
about American products and workers. Nice to hear from someone
who sees it differently.

[ejcastellanos]

55. I decided not to buy car built in red state

I would prefer to buy a domestically produced car if given the opportunity. That does mean I'd buy a Honda made in America. I guess that changed because I believe those are made in Ohio. It struck me today that those living in red states don't deserve my support in the form of my consumer dollars. So I will research where cars are produced and will not buy a car built in a red state.

Let them have their values, hate and fear, I'll keep my money or send it where I have some values in common with the voters.

I realize the UAW probably tried to mobilize their members. I also know that I have an in law who is a UAW member but voted for Bush. If they don't support my views, I won't support their livelihoods.

I was depressed about the loss but now I am pissed.

Lets' roll.

BTW, GM produces Tahoes in Arlington, TX. The plant in Oklahoma City, OK produces the Envoy and Trailblazer. I don't know how many people here are going to buy SUVs but I figured I'd throw that out.

[bhikkhu]

56. Forget the red state blue state

it doesnt matter. The economics dont work that way. Their parts are made everywhere, and the profits are distributed everywhere. Try buying nothing. The only voice a dem has left is economic - they dont give a crap anymore what we say, but if we stop spending, all hell breaks loose.
Hit 'em where it hurts - BUY NOTHING

[blurp]

57. They have 10 engineers for every lawyer

We have 10 lawyers for every engineer.

[The Zanti Regent]

59. I still miss my AMC Gremlin

I bought one of the first AMC Gremlins in 1970 for the incredible sum of $1,970.50. It was a base model with a 3 speed Borg Warner manual transmission, first gear wasn't synchronized and goodness, you heard the crunches when you put it in first gear. No power steering or power brakes, the windshield wipers ran off the motor vacuum and there was a pump for the windshield washer. I drove it home and my dad threw a fit, yet he was the one who wanted to drive it to work. It had the biggest gas tank in it's size and it sure ran a lot between fill ups. I remember driving it in winter from Pittsburgh to Los Angeles, even after 12 years it ran like a watch. Then I got the sticker shock of Los Angeles car insurance rates...What was once $180 every six months in Pittsburgh ran up to 2000+ in Los Angeles. eventually it died in the late 80s when I couldn't get replacement parts anymore and Chrysler decided to eat AMC up. I remember when it had to go to the junkyard, the towtruck came for it I just followed it out the driveway so sad...