Clinton to Democrats: Don't whine, work on image

[Kadie]

Clinton to Democrats: Don't whine, work on image
SAM DOLNICK, Associated Press Writer

Friday, November 5, 2004

(11-05) 14:12 PST NEW YORK (AP) --

Former President Clinton has a message for Democrats inconsolable after President Bush's re-election: Buck up. It's not that bad. You need to improve your image.

"This election presents a great opportunity for President Bush and a great opportunity for Democrats, and the two are not necessarily in conflict," Clinton said in his first public remarks since Democratic Sen. John Kerry's defeat on Tuesday.

The last two-term Democratic president said the party needs to rework its image and it would be "a mistake for our party to sit around and ... whine about this and that or the other thing."

Just weeks after major heart surgery, Clinton joined Kerry at a campaign appearance in Philadelphia last week and made appearances on the Democrat's behalf in several states, including Florida, New Mexico and Arkansas.

more...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/11/05/politics1712EST0634.DTL

[qanda]

1. He has a lot of nerve telling the Democrats to work on image

Mr. Blue Dress. He set the Democrats back 20 years.

[Edmond Dantes]

5. Now I've heard it all.

It's CLINTON'S fault that we lost the election 4 years after he left office.

[atreides1]

13. No It's Not HIs Fault

But why should we toss our principles out, there is nothing wrong with our image. The wrong is that so many moronic idiots, actually think that dropping bombs on women and children is moral, or that
wiping their asses with our Constitution is a value.

And if Clinton feels the same way he can go Cheney off, for all I care.

[Edmond Dantes]

17. Clinton did NOT say we should toss principles.

He merely said that we need to REPACKAGE them. And I agree.

[atreides1]

43. How

The fundies will never accept gays, never accept pro-choice, so how in the hell do we repackage something that don't want in the first place.

How do we repackage equal rights for gays, something that the other side wants. Should we tell women that we still believe in pro-choice,
but we have to deny that for a little while

All because we want some small minded religious fanatics to allow us to kiss thier asses.

None for me thanks, I'd rather the ground open up and swallow the idiots, and anyone else who wants to play "Can't we all get along".

Yes let's repackage them, it's the f*****g same as tossing them out.
We either have our principles that we believe in or we don't.

[Edmond Dantes]

48. We repackage under the broader heading of

the right to "family privacy," e.g. Family decisions are private decisions, and we all have that right regardless of race/gender/religion, etc.

[Carni]

60. You actually think the wing nuts care about privacy issues?

Seriously?

No, the only way to "repackage and sell it" would be to get more extreme, falsely devout, and to the right of the GOP.

Ask CNN and MSNBC how well that plan has worked out for them in their quest to siphon viewers away from FOX.

[Edmond Dantes]

81. You're gonna have to be more creative than that.

They will care about privacy issues--including family privacy--if we frame the issue properly. This requires thoughtful consideration, not emotional knee-jerk reaction.

[Bo]

72. I agree..Dems have an Image problema

And its a big one....

[Hoping4Change]

86. Re-Package? How corporate can one get. How triite and

meaningless. What happened to substance? Clinton should read Tom Franks' "What's the Matter With Kansas".

[Edmond Dantes]

160. It's not "corporate". It's a matter of communication.

[NYC Liberal]

88. Bullshit.

In other words, we should let the "right" define how we talk and how we act? OK, fine, you can go ahead and succumb to what their wishes, but I will most assuredly NOT.

It's long past due for us to start sticking up for what we believe in -- and say it LOUD and PROUD, no bullshit, no more using nice little euphamisms because, well, maybe the Republicans will get "offended" or -- gasp -- actually RESPOND! Say Bush LIED, don't say he "misled." Call the death penalty what it is -- "state-sponsored MURDER." The "right" does it -- why shouldn't we?

[hinachan]

111. Bullshit, indeed

<<In other words, we should let the "right" define how we talk and how we act? OK, fine, you can go ahead and succumb to what their wishes, but I will most assuredly NOT.>>

People like Clinton need to wake up and realize that Kerry's message was not his problem. He galvanized our base like few candidates in history (Clinton himself included, LOL).

Until voting fraud is stopped, no Dem candidate will ever win--period. You can't have a winner if all the votes aren't counted. Just because Clinton didn't have to face computer-generated voter fraud doesn't mean today's candidates don't have to, and I'm afraid Clinton's starting to get out of touch with modern life if he doesn't realize this. It's no longer 1992. And I know he thinks Hillary has a chance in '08, but without paper ballots or more stringent computer security, NO Democrat has a chance. Ever.

Wake up and smell the fraud...somewhere, Nixon's partying in his grave.

[michaelwb]

156. Got to disagree

"He galvanized our base like few candidates in history (Clinton himself included, LOL)."

Bush galvanized our base, not Kerry. Lots of ABB voters and activists. I'll admit this statement is only my observation, not one Democrat I know was KERRY YES! Instead the statement almost universally out of their mouths was, "I don't really like Kerry, but..."

[Edmond Dantes]

158. I agree with your approach 100%

[okieinpain]

132. exactly, do any one honestly think that rove doesn't reer to them

as morons. you just package your programs to fit their beliefs. sorry but that's the way it is with the great teaming masses. you have to guide them, without letting them know.

[Edmond Dantes]

159. We need to repackage the same message...

in terms that can be understood by people who are less educated, who lead insular lives, whose life experiences are not broad enough to allow them to perceive the big picture.

I hate to break it to you, but I was raised in a rural "red" area. I was fed the same crap that Rove feeds the Heartland masses. But once I had an opportunity to view the world from a larger perspective, I saw relationships that I had not seen before. And the urbanites who clued me in were very patient with my naive hick attitude--until I finally saw the light.

We must repackage our message in terms that * voters can understand and identify with. We start by looking at their life experiences.

It is not necessary to surrender our principles.

One reason why Clinton was electorally successful, in my view, is that he spent time on both sides of the railroad tracks--just like me. People on the "ignorant" side of the tracks are not capable (for numerous reasons) of just leaping over to the educated side. Those of us who are educated must leap over to THEIR side. And we must do it with humility and patience.

They are not stupid--merely uninformed. Bury your anger and your arrogance before you try to speak with them, on their turf, about issues that are important to them.

[mountainvue]

179. Yup. If you read

the article that's what he said.

[qanda]

28. That's not what I said

eom

[ender]

30. see - even the dems are blaming ...

the almighty clinton penis.

[Edmond Dantes]

35. LOL!

[Carni]

61. I am not "blaming" him

But I find his comments about polishing up our "image" a bit ironic.

[Edmond Dantes]

79. Wow, you're really hard on him.

He won the White House for our party, brought us 8 years of peace and prosperity, and the only thing we had to worry about was the current location of the presidential penis.

He's a human being, and he made a mistake in his personal life. Hillary forgave him. Can't you?

[Carni]

84. Wow you're really hell bent on "reforming" the party

Say...I heard Sean Hannity is "reaching out to Dems" tonight on his radio program...maybe you should call in and get some other fabbo ideas for us!

[Edmond Dantes]

98. LOL! Actually I am very much in favor of reforming our party.

But lambasting Clinton is a waste of time and energy.

[Carni]

109. Yes, I see that

NT

[goclark]

175. I adore Clinton, he is my favorite but

unless I missed something, where does he say what a spectacular job we did in this campaign?

He talks about how Bush was a good candidate!

Bush was an awful candidate!!! Lost the debates, lost the war,lost and didn't want to find common ground for all of us, lost the economy, lost the health care.

The only thing he so called found was GOD!

He did find a way to put his little KKKarl elves into the ballot boxes of our country.

Interesting that Clinton didn't mention the odd way the votes were counted.

Huuum

I'm now wondering if Kerry and Clinton had a falling out.

[grannybgood]

87. Of course we can forgive him.

What he was doing with his penis wasn't ours or anyone elses business but the fact that what he did was made public did hurt us and gave the repugs the moral high ground in alot of eyes. Certainly not fair but true.

[saracat]

142. Clinton is old news.

And his advice to Kerry was bad. And his advice to us is bad. I never believed that he was heping Kerry to lose until this. I will NEVER let the GOP define my standards and I will not pander to them like the DNC. That is not how to win. No wonder Gore endorsed Dean. And I now fully understand the poison of the DLC.

[NVMojo]

114. I like the old willy but ...I still hear about that damn blue dress

from repukes around here.

[American Tragedy]

135. If you don't think that the Lewinsky scandal has set us back you're crazy

Just as one example, the Dem party was systematically destroyed here in Kentucky in the subsequent months and years. It goes Clinton in 92 and 96, then in 2000 it goes Bush by about 15 points. That doesn't just happen by chance. I would argue that we are still paying for that one tiny stupid mistake that he made.

I don't give a damn about any politicians' sex life on either side of the aisle, neither do the others on this board I would suspect. But apparently, a significant section of the electorate does. So, all public figures that represent our party and other progressive organizations have an obligation to be discreet.

[Edmond Dantes]

162. Ahhh, here is the crux of it.

>>>>I would argue that we are still paying for that one tiny stupid mistake that he made.


Clinton is human. He made a TINY, human mistake. We allowed the ReThugs to blow it out of proportion.

We need to go on the offensive, in my opinion. We need to be proactive and keep THEM in the position of REacting to our moves.

One segment of our party needs to keep the GOP bastards busy, so the rest of our party can go about the business of governing--undisturbed.

[Democat]

11. No shit, Clinton fucked our "moral" image for a generation at least

And now he's calling us, the people who supported him during his darkest hour, "whiners".

Now I've heard every possible stupid thing from the Democratic Party.

[Edmond Dantes]

18. Stop, already.

In calling us "whiners", Clinton has coopted the language of the Right. And that's EXACTLY what we SHOULD be doing.

[Democat]

21. He is using the language of the right against those in his own party!

The way this reads to the average American is, "Even Bill Clinton tells Democrats to stop whining about Bush's victory!"

It was a stupid thing to say and it hurts our party's image rather than helps it.

[Edmond Dantes]

29. No, he is defusing the situation by using the term.

If someone calls you a name, and you get riled up, they have won. But if you laugh and show them it has no impact on you, you defang the attacker.

I've used this tactic many times. It works.

Bill is also a Democrat. Laugh it off, just like Bill. It will drive the wingnuts crazy when they see we don't take them seriously and they haven't gotten under our skin.

And in between guffaws, we plot our revenge. :-)

[Democat]

44. It's as great of an idea as Democrats telling Kerry not to "flip flop"!

Brilliant strategy by Clinton. :mad:

[Edmond Dantes]

46. "Against the assault of laughter,...

...nothing can stand." --Mark Twain

[Zhade]

145. You're not The Magistrate.

And Democat has a damned good point.

[Edmond Dantes]

154. Never said I was "The Magistrate"

And I am simply debating Democat. It's entirely possible that Democat can persuade me to adopt his/her viewpoint.

Nevertheless, I do think that our energies are better spent elsewhere. As Saracat correctly noted, Clinton is old news--and I agree with that assessment even though I have a personal bone to pick with Clinton.

Finger-pointing plays into ReThug hands. That is how they portray us.

[Carni]

62. Bullshit...the only people laughing their butts off about that remark

Are the freepers and he should have checked his own closets before he spewed that out into the cosmos adding insult to injury IMO

[Hoping4Change]

95. I strongly disagree. This is how the powerless pander to the

powerful. The powerless make themselves even less powerful by laughing off legitimate grievances and making them a joke, something not to take seriously. People who get labeled as whiners are easily dismissed, their grievances inconsequential and peevish.

[Edmond Dantes]

164. You are correct that our legit grievances should not be

laughed off.

But when they try to label us as "whiners", e.g., that is what needs to be laughed off. The label is unimportant. What IS important is that electoral fraud be challenged.

Try to distinguish between the issue and the label. Do not get hung up on the label. You have limited resources in terms of time/energy. Allocate them wisely. Do not sweat the small stuff.

And, it IS important for us to coopt their language, just as Clinton did. (And we can co-opt "their" issues too because we ARE pro-family, e.g.)

[itzamirakul]

140. Disappointed in his choice of words

I understand the point about "diffusing" the situation but to use Rush Limbaugh's favorite term, "whining" makes me nauseous. And I have been a staunch Clinton supporter throughout his presidency and throughout his difficulties.

Why is it that the Democratic leaders are afraid to step up and confront these lying, thieving bastards?

[Zhade]

146. "Why is it that the Democratic leaders are afraid to step up..."

It's called "good cop, bad cop".

[hinachan]

112. Democat's right

<<The way this reads to the average American is, "Even Bill Clinton tells Democrats to stop whining about Bush's victory!"

It was a stupid thing to say and it hurts our party's image rather than helps it.>>

Agreed. Again, poo-poohing the issue of voter fraud legitimizes the Republicans' claims that we're just paranoid, and enables them to continue their dirty tricks.

[Edmond Dantes]

166. The problem does not arise from Clinton's statement,

but from your reaction to it. We need a show of unity, folks. And we need to look forward...

[Sterling]

173. Yes everyone should get behind the blowjob king on moral issues.

Thanks for some of the worst advice ever. We should just pretend what Clinton says is what we think and that we are not completely stunned by the idea that he would want to tell us to stop whining and abandon gay issues.

Whatever.

[Edmond Dantes]

174. I am addressing "whining" only.

I'm not in favor of abandoning gays/lesbians. That's why this topic has generated so much heat, I'm guessing. You're angry with him over the advice he allegedly gave Kerry.

If you don't like Clinton, ignore him. He is not the enemy--just a distraction. Keep your rage focused on corporate America.

[Snivi Yllom]

180. FUCKING A RIGHT

Mr Blow Job on Easter asshole is no telling us to say gay bashing is OK?

FUCK HIM!

[merh]

136. Clinton is selling us out!

Whining - what the hell - if he had lost the election because of voter fraud, do you think he would be upset that the party was whining?

He got the blow job in office "because he could" - we will fight for what we voted for because we must!

[Hoping4Change]

91. I agree. Now I heard it all. Why isn't he raising sh*t about Dibold

even Drudge ran an article today about extra votes for beezlebush that just happened to get and can't be accounted for in Ohio. Why isn't he rallying the troops for the fight that lay in store for Democrats?

[smirkymonkey]

116. I agree - that statement disgusted me.

Instead of offering us fighting words of inspiration he tells us not to "whine".

I was pretty willing to forgive Clinton everthing before, but I won't forgive this. It's insulting beyond belief.

[BayStateBoy]

57. No Flames from Me. But Bill, You Must Head the DNC. n/t

[Pepperbelly]

83. and how many presidential elections have YOU won? nt

[Zero Gravitas]

92. Oh please

Don't treat the Right's fake scandals as if they were meaningful. There is very little that is wrong with this world that is Bill Clinton's fault.

[Amigust]

133. Work on image my ass !

How about working on basics and let the image naturally come out of that. This is the same guy who advised Kerry to go anti-gay to dress up his image.

[October]

2. Thank you for saying it

[libra]

3. Do democratic leaders really believe this election

was not stolen? How can they still not see, after 2000? What gives?

[makhno]

7. They don't care, it's business as usual

Doesn't personally affect most of them, does it. A senator's still a senator, with a solid salary, good health care and great prospects for the future. The kids can play the voting games all they want, while the adults confer behind closed doors.

[Edmond Dantes]

22. Must I remind you of the hell Clinton went through

when he was under investigation? Oh, sure. Life has been a bed of roses for Bill Clinton. Publicly humiliated before the entire nation while being persecuted by crackpot Ken Starr.

[makhno]

34. I'm sure it affected him

But it doesn't make Kerry's loss much, much less frightening to someone of his economic status than to most of us here.

That's all I'm saying: for the American people, it's a disaster, for the elite, it's business as usual and certainly not worth undermining the peons' belief in the sanctity of our democracy with crackpot theories about widespread electoral fraud.

Clinton et al. are the system we're railing against, and to his admonishment about quitting my whining, I offer the big dog a big old "fuck you."

[Carni]

63. Oh please...

Diebold and Theresa Lapore didn't *rig* his blow job.

[Edmond Dantes]

167. Clinton is a human being with human failings.

It seems that you have bought into the right-wing crap about Clinton being responsible for everything that goes wrong.

Oh, damn. Some bonding just came off my tooth. It's Clinton's fault!

When your anger is under control and directed toward the real enemy--corporate America--let me know.

[ChiciB1]

93. I'M With YOU!

I've been posting at so many Forums I've forgotten where they're at.

We need to ORGANIZE and PROTEST! It's now Friday and we've done NOTHING but complain. Let's get a PROTEST Rally going either in Washington D.C. or Boston or Somewhere! Too many stories out there about Voter Fraud. I live in Florida. Sarasota... Katherine Harris!! I've HAD IT! We Got Robbed and there is Proof! Jeff Fisher has info about it. I'll have to get the link!

Let's Get Moving!

[Ducks In A Row]

4. fuck image, get rid of the election fraud

bill is starting to get on my nerves

did they cut something else out during that surgury, cause that's the bill I know

[sallyseven]

10. Hey guys we have to all band

together and make sure that we are never caught flat footed again. Congress has to pass legislation to make sure that ballots are all counted up front. No electronic voting machines without a verifiable reading of ballots. We have to start pounding now and not let up.. They stole this one but we are not going to let them do it again,. Write to you congressman and your senators,.

[Malva Zebrina]

54. well Jesus Christ

they have had four years to do that very thing. I heard NOTHING about it in four years and now we are stuck again wondering if this election was stolen.

Throw up my hands in complete frustration.

We knew the last election was STOLEN and we knew all about the digital machines with no paper ballots and no method of re evaluating those results. We KNEW that the software was under "copyright" and still allowed it to go through.

Come on

If anyone thinks that it can be fixed now, or if it will change the results of this election they have got to be indulging in magical thinking.

There was SOMETHING that could have been done--it was not and imo it was NOT up to the Repubs because they relied upon fraud to get their man in there. It was up to the Democrats and they were all asleep fighting for our party in their dreams.

[smirkymonkey]

117. Maybe they gave him Reagan's heart instead.

[bitchkitty]

6. With all due respect, Bill, piss off.

I'm tired of this shit. Stop blaming us and put the blame where it belongs.

[llmart]

9. You said it.

Put the blame where it belongs. As a lifelong Democrat, I am not taking the blame for voting with the party of intelligence and education. I'm proud of it. The Republicans have hijacked every phrase we used to be proud of and turned it into a negative and we have got to stop letting them do that! I'm proud to be intellectual and worldly. I do not want to be a part of the dumbness overtaking our populace. I'll go to my grave being proud of it.

[shrike]

47. I just stole your line -- hope you don't mind

I just fired off a letter to Mr. Bill -- the most respectful thing I'm going to call him from now. Used your line as my opening sentence. I'm sending it snail mail because I wanted to make it nice and long. He won't read it, of course; flunkies do that sort of thing. But at least it made me feel better.

[bitchkitty]

143. Not at all!

I understand perfectly! :)

[Democat]

8. By using the word "whine" about Dems, he's damaging our image himself!

What a fucking idiot to talk about Dems "whining" and improving our image at the same time.

He should be smarter than using right wing talking points against his own fucking party.

Wake up Democrats, this is getting old!

[Cha]

49. I so agree with that!

Bill a lot of work campaigning in recovery for us. But, what gives him the idea ..we are "whining"?

I feel insulted with that!

[BootinUp]

12. Am I the only one here that agrees with Bill?

Why was the election close enough to steal?

[hinachan]

113. Sorry, but Bill's wrong

<<Am I the only one here that agrees with Bill?

Why was the election close enough to steal?>>


Because computers can perpetrate fraud on a much more vast scale than old fashioned Nixonian dirty tricks, that's why. Do you really think those long lines we saw nationwide were the result of Kerry NOT motivating voters?

The right-wingers are ALWAYS motivated...gay marriage didn't motivate them any more than they're always motivated against any pro-choice candidate. Gay marriage is just a scapegoat the Repukes are using to make their win look legit..."Oh, that got a LOT of people out, on our side."

Bullshit. Those people ALWAYS show up to the polls, because they're rabid and obsessed.

The truth is, our side was motivated this time, votes were deleted, voters were disenfranchised or intimidated, and voters were challenged so much that provisional ballots were flying like confetti. Until we find a way to fight this, we'll never regain power.

[Tight_rope]

149. I agree with him.

I simply think that he means well. We obviously need to do more to reach out to the blind who can not see the deceit of Bushco.

[shrike]

14. I'm through with Bill

I voted for the man twice, supported him through his impeachment, but now I'm done. He'll sit up there in his fancy New York house, with his fancy friends and all his money, and we'll be the ones who'll be taking it in the you-know-what for the next four years.

[tuvor]

15. What does that say about the electorate when enough of us

INCLUDING BILL CLINTON place a high enough value on "image" that it should be our number one concern?

Maybe some things aren't worth saving. Maybe we're the new dinosaurs, except that our extinction will be by our own hand.

[maryallen]

71. Who said it was "our number one concern?"

You?
The media?
Clinton?

My number one concern is the theft of democracy, and that began with the theft of Election 2000, only to be compounded by the theft of Election 2004.

Frankly, I think the discussion of "morals" -- coming from the "war party," noted for the abominations of Abu Graib, Gitmo, and "shock and awe" -- is quite despicable and demonstrates the ultimate in hypocrisy.

[Sandpiper]

16. Sandpiper to Clinton: Fuck off

It's your Centrist, Corporatist, DLC turkey of a strategy that landed the party where it's at today.

[VegasWolf]

23. Very good, quite to the point. Fuck you clinton.

[Lizzie Borden]

100. Amen to that.

Clinton has always seemed to me to be a surface Democrat, and Iv'e thought his left leaning tendencies were shallow.

[Nightjock]

19. I admired him so much

I named my first born daughter Chelsea.

First he tells Kerry he should abandon his gay supporters, now in the face of four more years of a dictatorship he says to change our image?!

That's two strikes Bill! One more and you can go fuck yourself!

[B Calm]

20. We are not whining, we're talking about saving democracy!

[kayell]

24. kayell to Clinton: Bill, your'e delusional. How about working on the BBV?

[teryang]

31. The party leadership has been "out to lunch" on BBV

...for four years. They remind me of Victor Chernov and Social Revolutionaries while Lenin and Stalin were packing the Soviets with election fraud.

[deacon]

25. Don't whine--work on getting a new voting system in this country

is more apropos.

[Carni]

66. THAT wouldn't have offended me...but "image"

The man must have rocks in his head--pot/kettle/black

[VegasWolf]

26. Clinton means images like Monica smoking a stogie with her ... n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

27. disregard all I didn't do; work to elect my wife

Not a Clinton fan.

[VegasWolf]

36. If Hillary is nominated its all OVER, the red states would go for her like

they would a gay person on welfare who wants to get married
in an Islamic mosque.

[Hoping4Change]

99. LOL you made my day. thanks.

[Terry_M]

108. Haha, that was funny, thanx

:)

[54anickel]

32. Typical politician - all about image. But it shouldn't be, and that's

what we need to work on. I still believe we had a good man in Kerry, and I was probably one of the last people to come to that conclusion. It is the process that is screwed. It's all sound bites and image and basically who has the best marketing.

I don't want what is the result of good marketing, I want a good product. We need to demand TV time or some sort of platform where people can get to know a candidate. I don't know the answers, but there's got to be a way to stop commoditizing our nations leadership.

[ScotTissue]

33. Drop dead, Bill.

You haven't done much to improve our "morals" image.

[Cattledog]

37. Bill's right!

The repugs wouldn't be whining like I see here. Get active on the local level and Do something. Reading political blogs does not make anyone an activist, we have to get our feet on the ground and convince the 6-9% of Dems that crossed over to come back. The Evangelical vote didn't beat us alot of our own left us!

CD

[kayell]

39. Oddly enough they didn't know they left us, but Diebold did.

Oh, and by the way: Bull Shit.

[VegasWolf]

41. Bullshit, the repukes would be whining like a pack of dogs after Monica's

panties.

[Trajan]

42. This line is hilarious ...

"The repugs wouldn't be whining like I see here" ...

Ehem ...

Really ? ...

They never complain ? .. never talk about how things bug them one way or another ? ... They 'never' speak about what bothers them about their opposition? or perhaps some media thingymajob ? ...

Cmon ....

That is a laughable assertion ....

[hinachan]

118. Get the fucking point already!!

Cattledog wrote:

<<The repugs wouldn't be whining like I see here. Get active on the local level and Do something. Reading political blogs does not make anyone an activist>>

You're missing the point that the Repukes have organization in place...as we were supposed to have, courtesy of Kerry/Edwards. So of course they can be activists, because there's already people who are ready and able to channel activists' efforts properly. Meanwhile, we're all just sitting around here wondering WTF to do next, the nearest thing to organization being http://www.blackboxvoting.org ! We trusted Kerry/Edwards to take care of the organization for us, but Kerry deserted us and now Clinton's telling us to STFU about it. This wouldn't be happening on the GOP side!

<<we have to get our feet on the ground and convince the 6-9% of Dems that crossed over to come back. The Evangelical vote didn't beat us a lot of our own left us!>>

Good Lord, get it through your head, once and for all: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO VOTES FOR US, IF THE VOTES AREN'T COUNTED!

[rogerjab]

38. And the first Republican who posed as a Democrat speaks up

This is the same guy who gave us NAFTA, Welfare Reform and many other frauds that masqueraded as good Democratic reform. I have no idea why black people supported this guy, he hurt them just slightly less than *. How shall we change our image by agreeing with the Repubs that all gays should burned at the stake and banished of their rights? Guy never was a Democrat and yet he's pawned off to be our savior, maybe we should work on our image by making Ralph our leader, or would that shake up the corporate culture too much? Clinton you are a good politician alright, but a miserable human being!

You're the Moron who gave these guys their morality high ground in the first place, Thanks for the advice Bill!

[anamandujano]

50. He said "you" not "we".

Freudian slip?

I'm not interested in any sort of party ruminations on where we went wrong, or planning for the next election.

We have to process and fix what's been going down for at least the last 3 elections.

I will never vote for Hilary. She voted for the war, like Kerry (who I voted for, under duress).

If they think we're going to spend our anger planning for 2008, they are wrong.

NO MORE MOVING ON.

[hinachan]

121. Welfare DE-form

rogerjab wrote:

<<This is the same guy who gave us NAFTA, Welfare Reform and many other frauds that masqueraded as good Democratic reform.>>

Here's a personal anecdote. I'm applying for disability (which is harder than hell to get nowadays), so I applied for welfare to tide me over till I can get on disability. Guess how much I get per month?

$173. And no food stamps. I kid you not. And the only reason I get that is b/c I have to "pay rent" (I live at home, but my case worker told me to have my aunt write a note that I pay $50/month rent)...otherwise, it'd be $109. And guess what? I can only get it for 12 months, and then my state will extend it for 6 months. If I'm not on disability by then, we're out of luck...my mom and aunt are retired and unable to work, so we'll be 3 people living on 2 fixed incomes.

If I weren't disabled, and just a single person having having hard times, I wouldn't be eligible at all. Now you know why so many single people are among the homeless.

And on my forms which state the rules and regulations of this "bounty" I receive, it says this is the result of the 1993 welfare reform.

Thank you, Bill Clinton...NOT!

For him to savage my family's economic security like this (we were very well off, till my illness and my aunt's wiped us out), then to rub salt in the wounds by saying something like this to us Dems, makes my blood boil.

Next time some jerkwad spouts off about the "gravy train" of welfare, kindly tell them my story...and forward my message to them, to fuck off and die.

Thank you!

[Zhade]

147. And damn Clinton for that!

He betrayed an essential Democratic ideal: we take care of everyone, because everyone wins when everyone wins.

He's a HUGE part of why I'm no longer a registered Democrat. The DLC is another.

[LiberalForEver]

40. Image IS NOT our problem.

Election fraud is our and the rest of America's problem.

President Clinton, I have been a supporter or your since day one, but your advice to change our image is just PLAIN WRONG. The GOP could change there image but they would still be the same party.

If we merely changed our 'image' would that mean acting more like them?

[Child_Of_Isis]

45. Someone please explain this to me....

This little line has me confused????


"This election presents a great opportunity for President Bush and a great opportunity for Democrats, and the two are not necessarily in conflict,"

[hinachan]

122. Truly scary

"This election presents a great opportunity for President Bush and a great opportunity for Democrats, and the two are not necessarily in conflict."

Yep, that's the old one-party government trick. Can you hear the jackboots stomping in unison yet?

[deminflorida]

51. Damn maybe he had some near death experience on the table

walked into the light...and came out as a Republican...

God is probably making him suffer Hell on Earth now for his sins of Adultery.

:evilfrown:

[Hoping4Change]

101. Yes it sounds like a JEEEEZus addicted fundie who you know

just loves the whole wide world even if is filled with evil sinners becuase she doesn't hate the sinner she hates the sin.

[aquart]

52. If the discussion is not election fraud, it's irrelevant.

And I'm ashamed of Bill at this moment as I never was before.

[Desperadoe]

53. He is right

And I am not a Bill Clinton fan at all.

In politics image is just as important as substance. You can have a superb agenda and all of the scruples and substance in the world but if you don't project it to the electorate or you allow your opponent to project it better, then you will lose. Losers don't become winners by making the same mistakes time and again.

All you have to do is get on the Wayback Machine and roll back to 1960. In the Kennedy vs. Nixon presidential race, Nixon was, by far, a much more substantial and experienced politician and office holder. Nixon was a superb statesman, an 8 year Vice President from a fairly decent administration and a fierce political opponent and Kennedy was a raw, inexperienced punk-kid Senator who had not much more going for him than a pretty face, an elite New England education and a great tan.

The entire difference in that election was that Kennedy could play to the country through his image in the media. Just ask Cronkite.

After Kennedy won on image, he governed on substance.

Kerry is a damn good man but he ran another piss poor campaign. He wasn't beaten by Bush, he was beaten by Rove.....the image maker himself.

[Cattledog]

55. I agree

Kerry was painted as an elitist by Rove even though Bush is more Blue blood than Kerry. This resonates in rural America like it or not. Remember the Dean comment about being the candidate "for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks." So true!

[Iceburg]

90. The election was STOLEN (AGAIN!!!) plain & simple

[bullimiami]

56. BILL SHUT YOUR TRAP AND LISTEN FOR ONCE

BUSH IS RABID. THERE IS NO WORKING WITH HIM.
GET YOUR BUTT OUT HERE AND HELP US OR JUST SHUT UP.

[TahitiNut]

58. Here's a message for you, Bill:

"Never separate the lives you live from the words you speak!" - (Paul Wellstone)

:grr:

[smirkymonkey]

119. Now there was a REAL Hero.

Clinton has no integrity - he's a showman. And image is all he has.

[NurseLefty]

137. Well said!!

[Zhade]

148. YES. Thank you. That's what I'm TALKIN' about.

First vote in Congress: against Gulf War I
Last vote in Congress: against Gulf War II

[Carni]

59. Well Bill this puts you firmly on my shit list

Perhaps if you hadn't been so "randy" during your second term we wouldn't be HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT OUR IMAGE SO MUCH!

ARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH!

[Barkley]

64. Whinning? Hell most of the time Democrats support Bush!

It about time they/ we started to 'whine'!

Most of the time Democrats just go along with whatever Bush says.

For once people are standing up (not sitting around)!

I say we need to 'whine' loud!

We need to embarrass the establish Democrats who keep losing elections with their 'accommodationist' attitude.

The Party does indeed need to work on its image.

[professor skisurf]

65. Do you want Dean for DNC Chair?

For those interested in Dean for the DNC, there is a petition going at: .

[Barkley]

75. Thanks for this Post! I signed the petition immediately! - nt

[RaRa]

94. me too! n/t

[hinachan]

123. Yes, let Dr. Dean cure our Party!

Consider it signed and forwarded to my pals!

[tjdee]

67. Absolutely right, as usual.

Bill Clinton is not perfect, but he KNOWS political campaigns.

Our image DOES SUCK. I don't get the argument here. People are getting caught up in the word "whining", but that's not the point.

The media DOES shaft us. Therefore, our IMAGE is NOT as good as it should be. Millions of Americans voted for a petulant moron we should be beating by a HUGE margin.

Are there right wing fundie wackos? Yes.
Was the election stolen? Yes.
Are nonvoting Americans screwing us all? Yes.

But that doesn't mean Clinton is wrong in this assessment. All this smack talked about Clinton makes me laugh. When Dean, or Clark, or whichever candidate people are in love with (including Edwards), wins a primary or a national election, then come talk to me about they're more relevant than Bill Clinton.

[flaminbats]

82. our party is divided..

a few more years with this neocon Congress and Bush's second term will solve that problem.

We can succeed where the Republicans have failed, in making a connection between economics and morality. The Kerry campaign made outsourcing one of its central themes, but didn't push it as a moral issue. Kerry was put on the defensive regarding his healthcare plan, when he should have made the Republicans pay the moral price for these attacks. Republicans argued that allowing individuals with pre-existing conditions to buy health insurance is too costly, but denying healthcare to someone with a serious medical problem isn't. Republicans have attacked Kerry for flip flops regarding the War in Iraq, but when have Democrats attacked the Republican party for flip flopping on their support of a Clintonlite healthcare plan?

Why did Kerry not attack Bush for being unchristian to minimum wage workers? When will our party attack Republicans for not deporting illegal immigrants or companies which hire them?

[hinachan]

125. Relevant?

tjdee wrote:

<< When Dean, or Clark, or whichever candidate people are in love with (including Edwards), wins a primary or a national election, then come talk to me about they're more relevant than Bill Clinton.>>

Bill Clinton was relevant in 1992 and 1996. But now, elections are being taken over by computers--this wasn't an issue when he was running for office. The political arena is an entirely new battleground now, and KKKarl Rove is more relevant than Bill Clinton could hope to be now...unless and until he pulls his head out of the sand and addresses the issue of black box voting fraud. Bill Clinton couldn't get elected dogcatcher now, not with voting machines gleefully transferring his votes to a GOP candidate, or just deleting them...no paper trail, just *poof*!

[JoFerret]

68. Bugger off Bill

I am not a blamer so I don't blame you...however, if you had kept your pecker in your pants then Gore would have won in 2000 and this fiasco would not have happened.

[adadem]

69. seconded nt

[leQ]

70. it's obvious where this is going

hillary for '08.

[GemMom]

76. Agreed

He's trying to pave the way.

[hinachan]

126. Hillary in '08?

Not likely, when voting machines divert her votes to Ah-nold Schwarzenegger. x(

The clue phone is ringing, Bill...the call's for you.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

73. There's a growing list of people

whom I would dearly love to say "Bite me" to face-to-face.

He's now at the top of that list.

[Cha]

151. We're right ..they're Wrong..why should we

change our image..unless we're fucking cameleons?!

I don't need to change my image as person..and I feel in tune with who Kerry was championing..why would I change who I am?

[happynewyear]

74. worry about your own image Big Dog

you rather irritate me at this particular moment in time ...

:dem:

[Bread and Circus]

77. Message to Clinton from me: next time you want your dick sucked...

don't do it on the taxpayer's time in the taxpayer's oval office.

P.S. You practically did everything you could to help the RW make
this "Democrats have no morals" meme stick. Quit cumming on young
chick's blue dresses and we got a deal. Fuckhead.

[Hoping4Change]

102. well said. eom

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

78. Say it with me, Bill, FRAUD!

Would you tell a woman seeking justice after she was raped to quit whining and move on? Well that's what the Republicans have done to our Democracy and that's the message you are sending us.

[barb162]

103. yes!!!! He should be dealing with the issue of the vote fraud

and speaking about it across the country rather than telling us this crap.

[hinachan]

127. OMG, the rape metaphor is perfect

We should get this printed on T-shirts....

[prayin4rain]

80. Unbelievable!! Quit whining.

I have stuck up for that man for 7 years and he abandons and taunts us three days after the election ends. SIT AROUND WHINING, I just can't believe it.

[Catherine Vincent]

85. Sorry my dear sweet William.

I won't take your advice on this.

[Iceburg]

89. Piss off Clinton ... you dicked the Democrat image away

[ChiciB1]

96. Jeff Fisher Site

Check this site out. http://www.Walkingwithfisher.com for information about Voter Fraud!

[dawgman]

97. Screw Clinton, Screw the DLC. They have ruined this party.

[libbygurl]

104. NO! B/C won because they STOLE the election, not because of what you

claim is wrong with the Dems (although there's lots wrong with it)!

On this point, gawd, YOU ARE SO WRONG, BILL CLINTON, and we don't need your crappy, condescending and IDIOTIC advice! How about raising hell about VOTER FRAUD instead?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

105. and had Kerry won, Clinton would be praising him

for sticking to his guns and waging a billiant campaign.
The fact is Kerry nearly pulled it off, despite the smearing.
Fuck you Bill. You suck more than Monica ever did.

[candy331]

107. Seems he enjoyed the whining when the repugs had his balls

stretched out after coming out of Monica lips. He is a selfish man with charisma and much intellect but it is all about him, I suppose that is the way the game is played by some. Move out of the way Bill Hill, John, John and all other repug enablers.

[are_we_united_yet]

106. First time I

have to say "No Bubba. This is Bullshit!"

[Divine Discontent]

110. why bill???????????????????? n/t

[peacetalksforall]

115. After all these years of supporting Clinton...I say my image is just fine.

I'm against killing. I'm for peace. I'm for tolerance. I'm against the merging of church and state. I believe in trial by jury. I still want to believe that our vote can count. I believe in our bill of rights, but that we need to interpret it fairly. I'm against corporations and the military owning the media. I'm against any minister, priest, reverend, guru, or crazy person telling me what to do that is in any way political.

[killbotfactory]

120. Stop nominating crappy candidates.

stop running away from wedge issues. We look like sissies who are trying to hide something and people vote against us anyway.

[BootinUp]

157. I wouldn't have said it that way

But I think we need to be honest. It was Kerry's image (personality and record) that was rejected. Most Americans agreed with his agenda according to polls.

But he wasn't a crappy candidate, just not the strongest one for a national race.

[Comicstripper]

124. Bill's version of Joe Hill's " Don't mourn me. Organize!" n/t

[OnionPatch]

128. I always thought he took our party in the wrong direction

and now that remark clinches it for me. Screw him. Maybe he could start up a third party, Republican Lite or something.

[Neshanic]

129. Boy that "Monica Hummer" free pass is looking ragged.

[Only Me]

130. Well unless we all just recently sprouted horns the American people

should dang well know that home and hearth is as important to us
as it is to anyone else they live and work around us everyday!
WE JUST DON'T Feel the NEED to make everybodys family life the same as OURS! We except our differences.
For some reason, tolerance and exceptance, which used to be a good thing, atleast thats what I thought, is now being percieved as evil.

I just don't get it.

[SoCalDem]

131. I'm sorry, but... STFU Bill...and ALL the other Dem blabbermouths

who run to the NYT every time a thought travels from one synaps to another..

There is such a thing as STRATEGY..and you KEEP THAT STUFF TO YOURSELF AND ONLY THE ONES WHO NEED TO KNOW.

you do not BRAODCAST what you plan too do..how you plan to do it..why you "failed"..

To quote another famous American...."shut UP...shut UP...shut UP" and pass the falafel..:eyes:

[Amigust]

134. Bill Clinton is the president who signed the Telecommunications Bill of

1996, that enabled the media to consolidate to the outrageous point the right wingers now dominate the radio frequencies with their lies, and we can't hope to get straight news coverage on the tube. Did Bill Clinton fight tooth and toenail to keep from signing that bill? Did Congress have to override his veto?

I voted for Democrat Bill Clinton both times but always was convinced he was the best Republican president we had had since Reagan.

[ibegurpard]

150. Yup

Just how does he suggest we disseminate that "image?"

[pdurod1]

138. drunk and healing

I've been flamed by du people. When I respond, I get wacked. Sometimes makes me wonder if I belong here. I'm not a republican. I worked for ES&S during the last election and I didn't see anything questionable. I had stupid, rich republicans stare at me. I did my best.

[Amigust]

177. ES&S & Diebold

Unless you saw everything that was going on, your vision was limited.

For instance, using the infamous 2-digit back door into the Diebold central tabulators, a roomful of hackers could have produced most of the divergences from the exit polls in counties where Diebold central tabulators were used. Also, you must realize that "legitimate" companies that are engaging in illegal activity are certainly not going to make that activity visible to their employees in general.

Two companies (ES&S and Diebold) started by two brothers (Bob & Todd Urosevich) with close connections to the Republican Party, will count over 80% of all votes in America using both touchscreens and ballot scanners.

[Seabiscuit]

139. Fuck image, Bill!!! Work on voter fraud and vote discrepancies!!!

You're out of the hospital now. Drag Kerry's ass back to his team of attorneys and put them to work. NOW!!!

What? You want to wait until 2008? 2012? 2016? When will you friggin' DLC'ers stop destroying our party????

[Blue_Tires]

141. with so many incredibly large issues at stake

a call to work on image rings rather hollow

[Zhade]

144. Best. Republican. President. EVER!

Wow, Bill. Fuck you, too.

"Not in conflict" - did you miss the fascists in Gore's White House, asshole?

[lawladyprof]

152. A concrete suggestion I made on another thread

I thought that for the most part our ads were bland and superficial. We are dealing with people who respond to emotional appeals (recall commentary about the girl whose mother was killed on 9-11 and that the focus groups were so moved by it--one commentator said men were crying). Well, that ad made me mad but in a more cerebral, intellectual way. "If Gore had been president, she wouldn't have lost her mom" and "Any president would have hugged her (let no photo-op go by)" and when she said she said she felt safe because Bush was president, I said, "Idiot." But it illuminate one fact. People responded to it emotionally. And then I remembered the ads used so effectively against Clinton's health care plan. Those, too, were emotion driven vignettes.

So our ads should be single issue ads. No more shotgun (multiple issue) ads. They should tell a story--note these can archtypes and use actors. James who lost his job and his health insurance and then had a car accident and who is now faciing bankruptcy, Phil whose super-smart 13 year is in trouble because he is bored by teaching to the test, a rural Nepalese woman whose baby died because of the defunding of family planning agencies who would have provided clean birth kits, Meredith in college but now has to drop out because state funding cut, Sally who found that Bush's drug cards didn't help her a bit, Tom and his wife, a retired couple, who learned that their former employers were dropping their medical insurance because they could do so and throw them onto Medicare only), Ben and Joan putting off retirement so they can help their kids because their son's job was outsourced, Mary and Phil whose marriage is strained because Phil's mom is asking if she can come and live with them because she doesn't think she'll have enough social security to live on when she retires in a few years, Sonia who needed a "partial birth abortion" (I know that is not a medical term and is an invention of the right) for medical reasons and now can't have another child--her baby lived a minute or two, now we see her in the nursery taking a teddy bear out to put with attic sale stuff--she'll never need it. There's thousands of pathos-filled stories-results of Bush/Republican policies that tug at the heartstrings and also (sadly) play the fear card ("that could happen to me").

The point is to draw the viewer in to a story he or she can identify with. The protagonist should not talk to the viewer (well, maybe a quick one or two lines). The ads should be a slice of life, a mini soap opera. These ads do not change our message but they bring our values to life. It is not abandoning our principles but repackaging them and making them vivid.

There is benefit from analyzing what went wrong (picking over the bones), but I had the uncomfortable feeling that the campaign was too cerebral, too rationale. I didn't see the danger because that approach resonated with me. But even if I had I didn't/don't know anyone of influence to suggest this idea to. Finally, the fault lay in not analyzing Republican success and co-opting it.

[Amigust]

178. You nailed it down

the fault lay in not analyzing Republican success and co-opting it

This is what I fault the Democratic Party for letting slide by.

[BiggJawn]

153. Image? Bill, I love ya, Bubba, but.....

Shrubya won in 2000 partly on a platform of "Ah won' be gitting no blow-jobs fromma big-haired chubby chick on toppa mah desk!"

All the good things you did for us, and your most remembered legacy in the minds of Dildo-Head Murka is the idea that the donkey don't care where he sticks his mule-tool.

Oh, and that "advice" to Kerry to "dump the homos" is how I feel, too. (NOT.)

[Snellius]

155. Let's throw another faggot on the fire and get cosy

"It's not that bad."? Boy, we are in trouble. What is this? "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"?

Bubba, you just put the final stake into that broken down old heart of yours.

[Carson]

161. How quickly attitudes change!

During the Clinton years, Big Dawg was above reproach.

Now look.

Has it occurred to anyone that if perhaps more Democrats had expressed this same outrage when the affair was made public, instead of defending to the nth degree, we wouldn't be in the position of having our values questioned?

Clinton said (in the above article): "If we let people believe that our party doesn't believe in faith and family... that's our fault,"

I agree.

[shrike]

163. Horseshit.

"family" and "values" are horseshit issues. People dying in Iraq, millions without health insurance, the slow death of decent jobs -- these are issues.

Instead of standing up and saying so, Dems are buying into this crap.

[Snellius]

170. I second that "Horseshit"

Why are so many Democrats trying to correct a mistake by just repeating it again and again. These "family values" have nothing to do with right or wrong. Just fear and prejudice.

[Amigust]

182. You're finding out that not every Dem voter idolized Big Dawg

Has it occurred to anyone that if perhaps more Democrats had expressed this same outrage when the affair was made public, instead of defending to the nth degree, we wouldn't be in the position of having our values questioned?

As I recall those awful times, one after another of congressional Dems abandoned him to the inquisitors instead of demanding them to butt out. They certainly didn't defend him to the nth degree.

It is clear that Clinton should have kept his sexual impulses under more control. It is also clear that prior to this, the press had lived by a privacy code regarding presidential sexual dalliances. This was something new in American politics that was hatched by extremist GOP operatives. And as in so many unexpected attacks, Dems didn't know how to assess it clearly and rally a coordinated, effective response while it was happening, especially given that Clinton was insisting he didn't do anything. Hindsight serves us well, however.

As Big Dawg was reported to have said, I believe on Comedy Central, "If you want a saint for president, then go to Heaven and find one."


having our values questioned = having our values criticized

Are you so afraid of having our values "questioned"? Get real, Republicans are going to critize anything and everything Democratic. The best response is one that turns it right back on them so they feel it. Don't keep letting Republicans define the game and the rules.

[bluedonkey]

165. Image is not the problem

The Democrats always try to be more like THEM.It's wrong to pretend and it shows!
WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS!
Nothing wrong with being liberal!
Nothing wrong with being tolerant!
Nothing wrong with being gay!
Nothing wrong with protecting the enviroment!
Nothing wrong with NOT bombing the crap out of other countries!
Nothing wrong with having a social program!
Nothing wrong with any of it!

There is a lot wrong with THEM!
We need to stop letting THEM put US on the defensive!
I,for once,will not keep my mouth shut anymore to spare THEIR feelings.I will stop tiptoeing around.And it will start today,I'm invited to my fundie sister's house.All the born-agains will be there!

[dbt]

168. Bill, I love you, but shut the fuck up.

Go put your feet up for a good while. Pop a few pain pills if you need to, but give the Pollyanna thing a rest for, say, the next four years.

I know you mean well, but moving the Democrats to a more centrist, business-friendly image has gotten us exactly where?

:evilgrin:
dbt

[Sterling]

169. Is this Bill I hate fags Clinton?

As if I care what he thinks anymore.

[Carson]

171. A serious, non-sarcastic question

Can not supporting a certain agenda be defined as "hate"?

I'm disapointed in Bill, but calling it hate is above and beyond.

I don't support PETA's agenda, but do I hate them? No. I don't support radical Christians, but do I hate them? No.

The word "hate" is bandied around too much, attributing that emotion to anyone who does not fall into lockstep.

(edited for clarity)

[leesa]

172. Image is NOT the problem. The problem is rampant corruption

of our government, especially the entire Republican wing. Do NOT let them tell us it was our message. It was THEIR corruption that did this.

[Malva Zebrina]

176. Image is more important than substance

Ithink Clinton may be right, but not right to call people whiners.

I could never be a politician--I would balk at promoting a false front and self destruct.

Why is image so important? Becasue we adore image and fantasy. It permeates life in the good old, spend like fools, America.

If we want to get back to real, we need to stop buying and spending adn living like wild Epicureans on a role, throw out TV, and stop adoring ingenues,and stop making mythological heroes out of football players, or baseball players, and stop being goggly eyed fans of the beautiful, the rich and famous and stop reading Ladies Home Journal, and Glamour, and Teen, and give up dressing little four year old toddlers in Brittny Spears outfits to compete in beauty contests and breast implants and eye lifts and all that seduces us to love image over real substance.

I know--I'm old.

[Snivi Yllom]

181. Image over substance, that's Mr. Blow Job for you

It's ok to support gay marriage bans because tactically that will help Democrats win over homophobic bible thumping yahoos. Naaah, better to subdue that rage and suck up to the vile policies that make us ill

Great strategy Bill.

Go fuck yourself. Really hard.

[Puglover]

185. I agree...anyone

that thinks Bills little blowjob didnt affect our party is nuts. I watched the guys in my office fucking froth at the mouth with fury over the "disrepect" that "slimebag" showed the Oval Office. Never mind that more then one president has messed around there. Personally I think the guys that were so offended by Bills little hummer are simply pissed because they aren't getting any.
Jeff

[Southsideirish]

183. He was so afraid of Howard Dean he pushed Clark at us - then

when he saw Clark wasn't going to do it he pushed Kerry. Now he's telling US to get over it???

[corker]

184. yea right..

half the country is delusional and the other half is disillusioned..

[tsuki]

186. I am not whining,

I don't want 2006 stolen, or 2008 etc. etc. etc.

I'm an American, that used to mean I got a vote.