Blair's call to accept Bush scorned by Chirac

[kskiska]

Rifts likely to remain as French president says world is more multi-polar than ever


Jacques Chirac, the French president, yesterday threatened to reopen transatlantic rifts between the EU and the US over the war in Iraq by ignoring Tony Blair's plea for Europeans to "face up to the reality" of George Bush's resounding re-election as American president.

Mr Chirac compounded his opposition to appeals for closer cooperation between the US and Europe in Mr Bush's second term by snubbing an EU summit lunch for Ayad Allawi, Iraq's interim prime minister, and urging Europe to act as a counterweight to American hegemony "in a world that's more multi-polar than ever".

The French president, Europe's leading opponent of last year's US-led invasion of Iraq, held talks early yesterday with Germany's chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, and Spain's prime minister, José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, to draw up a tripartite challenge to US global dominance by strengthening the EU's common security and foreign policy.

(snip)

Even Mr Zapatero, who pulled Spanish troops out of Iraq immediately on taking office, ignored an obvious snub when Mr Bush refused to take his congratulatory call personally and publicly called for an "increased transatlantic dialogue and respect for each other's position".

more…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1345046,00.html

[eleonora]

1. "The US has spoken, it's time for Europe to listen"

Who does he think he is?!!

[da_chimperor]

12. He thinks he's God-Emperor bush

and just when you thought the US couldn't be more hated . . . just wait until the US army levels Falluja.

[mutius]

41. Bush WW III

Bush is going to get us all killed. Why can't the so called moral people see this. the anti Christ will be protected by Satan. Anti Christ doesn't mean he doesn't believe in Christ, just the values Chris stood for.

[arwalden]

72. Bush Actually WANTS To Bring About The End Times... He Believes God

-appointed him. He believes that every random thought that enters his head was placed there by a deity. No matter how idiotic or illogical that thought might be, he believes that it is the inspired word of his god.

Given a choice between mutual assured destruction of the world and a truce and peace, Bush will choose to act in a way that will bring about the prophecies. His Christian beliefs are truly insane. He's mad. His goal is FOR war, not avoiding it.

He must be stopped.

[mutius]

76. Yes he must be stopped.

The man is a nut. I can not believe that this stupid man is the president of the divided States of America. Anyone in their right mind knows he is stupid. first debate all he could do was pound on the podium and make monkey shines. NO VOCABULARY no posture, just a idiot from Texas.

[VegasWolf]

15. Well, the Dutch papers are claiming bush is a nazi. n/t

[gigantor]

18. What?

Bullshit! Which papers? Where? I'm sitting here tonight watching Dutch TV and I'm not seeing anything of the sort.

[VegasWolf]

37. Bullshit, you're not looking very hard! n/t

[gigantor]

39. Well....

I'm sitting here with the last weeks worth of Algemeen Dagblad in my lap, which is one of the larger papers here in The Netherlands, and I can't find any reference to Bush being labeled a Nazi by anyone.

Are you referring to some fringe paper, like the Daily Worker or Forward, or 'the letters to the editor' in some other paper?

In any event, a reference would be appreciated, rather than claiming that the Dutch press is calling Bush a Nazi. It isn't as far as I can tell.

Remember, the Dutch know what a Nazi is, from their fairly recent history, and while many may not agree with Bush's policies (strangely enough, many do!), most are bright enough not to make such an emotional and ludicrous comparison.

So, until you provide a valid reference to support your claim, I'm calling 'bullshit'.

The Dutch press isn't Le Monde.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

38. I haven't attempted to verify the claim, but

you can search Dutch papers at this site:

http://www.dailyearth.com/IntnNews/netherlands.html

[jdj]

21. can you post the names of the papers?

because he is a nazi.

[gigantor]

43. Er.....

We're a whole lot more careful here about making unsubstantiated, emotional and juvenile claims, than perhaps you are in the states. Calling someone a Nazi here, is quite actionable, that is, you can get your stupid ass sued off for saying such a thing.

And that's why I questioned Mr. Vegaswhatever on his post.

And that's why I called his assertion total bullshit. Until he comes up with a reference, I totally reject his claim that the Dutch press is representing the US President as a Nazi. Didn't happen, no matter how much he wishes it did.

This ain't Frawnce, sweetie.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[libbygurl]

2. The barbarians are no longer at the gates. Vive le monde de anti-Bush! nt

[Mizmoon]

3. If they really want the EU to balance the US

They HAVE to get the UK on board. The UK is very resistant, particularly because the pound is much stronger than the euro right now. Why would the UK want to fully integrate with the EU and take the risk of screwing up their pensions, their home values, etc.?

There is only one thing that would be big enough to convince the common guy in the UK to take that risk - that is if they made English the official language of the EU.

Can Chirac's French ego take such a bold step to save the world?

[The Zanti Regent]

5. Evin if Chirac did that, Blair would still snub him

After all, Chirac is a human being while Phony Tony is Bush's 'brother in KKKrist"

[Mizmoon]

7. No, Blair has supported entry into the Euro in the past

it's the public that's against it for very valid reasons. But the language thing might be big enough to sway public opinion.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. Language has nothing to do with it

Why on earth would you think it did? The euro is the common currency used by most of the EU - it's not the parliament or some cross border institution.

[aneerkoinos]

9. FYI

Pound has been dropping against Euro for four years, despite much higher interest rates. I would not call that "stronger".

And your other delusions are very funny.

[donco6]

4. And France comes to our aid yet again.

Thanks for standing up to the Chimp. Vive la France!

[havocmom]

10. Time to dust off my Franklin and recall how much we owe France

Once again, they come to our aide against tyrants.

[mhr]

11. It Is Truly An Abomination That More Americans Do Not Appreciate

And understand that without France, the US would never have been!

[ithacan]

6. good'. Bush and the US are gonna get what they deserve

Bush is an asshole we all know that

I hope the allies do not do anything to help out the US. Let bush clean up his own mess.

[cubsfan forever]

14. Memo to the Coward in Chief

"Be careful of what you wish for, you just may get it."

Professor 2

[saigon68]

17. Lots of simple, rustic, ignorant, young men and women from Jesusland

Are about to become Shredded Hash for the Halliburton Criminals.

As they march off to the sounds of braying crowds and beating drums to "KILL the Muslim Rag-Heads". With this tune ringing in their ears.

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Refrain

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

Refrain

Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.

Refrain

[lumpy]

26. Very appropriate.

Onward Christian soldiers...Many evanglical churches consider this is their political war and they are the soldiers to bring their brand of morals to this torn nation. They have been quite successful in their quest to bring their brand of religion into the inner workings of our political process. Your can be sure Congress, in the next 4 years, will be taking a lot of time hashing out gay rights/ abortion rights/and general moral rights in the Bush term. Meanwhile the immoral stance taking by the 'War President' regarding preemptive attacks on sovereign nations will go by the wayside. Cuba next on the list?

[Briar]

8. Good for Chirac

I am so embarrassed about my country thanks to Tony's abject toadying at the feet of Bush. He's turned us into the villain's henchmen, butlering for Goldfinger!

[Spazito]

13. Go Mr. Chirac!

The other war is now on, imo. There was an understood 'wait and see who wins the Nov 2 election' on the part of the rest of the world. The result, at this point anyway, is now in. The economic/balance of power war is now on.

The US dollar tanking vs the Euro, nations that had, to this point, not joined the EU are now about to join, boycotts of US goods and services will escalate.

Watch Russia and China very carefully, they will continue and escalate their mutual trade agreements as well as other treaties.

[VegasWolf]

16. LBN: bush demands EU change acceptance policy, US wants in. n/t

[Gregorian]

19. We're all French now! Or how I learned to love the French.

They may seem rude, but I'll just overlook that.

The French RULE!

[Pachamama]

34. Non...the french are like New Yawkers..get to know them & them you and

they are great....vive la france!

:hug:

[VegasWolf]

36. oui M'dame ! I find the french to be a delightful people!

[jdj]

20. They're gonna tripartite like it's 1999.

I hope.

We need someone to keep Bush from starting armageddon.

[DeaconBlues]

22. "resounding" reelection?!!?!

Are those the words of the Guardian or Blair? Bush only eked out his slim victory because of the Smear boat Vets and the Osama video. Lies and fear. There was nothing "resounding" about it.

[VegasWolf]

25. Resounding all over Fallujah. n/t

[maddezmom]

23. and the poodle is on his way over to kiss *'s ass

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=693&e=2&u=/ap/20041106/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_blair

[shrike]

24. Bush has done the impossible. He has made Chirac into a hero

From what I've been told, Chirac was an unpopular figure in Europe --until he took on Bush.

[VegasWolf]

27. Hey Blair, have you seen this little fallujah girl. Her mommy wants her .

[JudyM]

29. What a photo - it ought to be on the front page of the Times.

[chimp chump]

30. Yeah, like they're relevant.

"The French president, ... with Germany's chancellor, ... and Spain's prime minister draw up a tripartite challenge to US global dominance by strengthening the EU's common security and foreign policy."

These three cannot dictate EU policy to the rest of the EU. Not for long anyway.

New Europe, the newest members of the EU, are all allies and supporters of the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention Italy and Britain. And some other EU countries are not too uniform in their reaction to U.S. policy.

Spain is about evenly split between the antiwar party (Zapotero) and the party of the defeated Aznar. So Spain could flip back to Aznar on pretty short notice. The German business class is determined to see Schroder and his party ejected from power in the next elections. They don't want Germany to align itself as anti-American.

Once we get beyond the opinions held by the political parties and the public within the various EU countries, we can ask just what they're going to do about it.

They have no airlift capacity and, outside Britain, barely have seaborne transport. They won't spend money on first-rate equipment except Germans and Brits and even they have limits. Outside of Britain and Germany, the rest of Europe is essentially undefended except for a glorified police force. They parade their EU military up and down the boulevards of the capitals of Europe from time to time to make people think they are safe and can still project power outside the region. But they can't.

Generally their armies have an average age over 40. Some of their armies will soon average over fifty. Compare this to the U.S. armies with young physically fit soldiers with the finest equipment ever produced, much of it equipment which no other nation can match. There's simply no comparison.

So long as no one invades them, they can feel powerful and independent and issue these rather odd statements.

Let's keep in mind that the combined might of EU couldn't even settle down the military conflict in Kosovo/Bosnia back in the Nineties. They required Clinton to bring American force to bomb their way to imposing a solution. It was a bad solution and their subsequent mismanagement of the peace has been a festering failure and tragedy ever since. Pathetic as their military efforts in Kosovo/Bosnia were, they've cut funding more, their troops are older. So they're even less capable now. Due to their floundering economic performance, they're going to cut their military even more.

They can fume and sign these indignant little agreements all they want. But America acts. It's that simple.

Unless you can take action independently and sustain it, you are not an actor on the world stage. Today, only America and China and perhaps Russia are capable.

[Blue_Tires]

32. lol

"They can fume and sign these indignant little agreements all they want. But America acts. It's that simple."

we've seen america in 'action' for the last 4 years, and frankly; billions of people have had enough of it...the bush admin is a clear rogue danger to every peace-loving nation

[Steelangel]

33. Agreed

Another 4 year like that, billions of people will be fed up with it and do something. We will see the results soon or later.

[fedsron2us]

35. Yeah America acts

but it gets the rest of the world to pay the bills. The US military is largely funded with money borrowed from Asia. Whats going to happen when the suckers stop propping up the dollar.

[aneerkoinos]

40. Funny anti-Euro nuttywinger

But I hope the moderators will leave this monument to militaristic idiocy and ignorance undeleted.

These three cannot dictate EU policy to the rest of the EU. Not for long anyway.

New Europe, the newest members of the EU, are all allies and supporters of the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention Italy and Britain. And some other EU countries are not too uniform in their reaction to U.S. policy.

Those three don't need to dictate anything, most of European leaders agree with them, indluding new member states. Hungary, Chech, Netherlands and even Poland have announced plans to withdraw from the Coalition next year, Balkan states and others soon to follow, because popular opinion in the new member states like everywhere is strongly opposed to Bush and war against Iraq. Only Blair and Berlusconi are sticking with Bush, but withoug popular support, so their days are also numbered. Turkey has changed from a close ally of US into ally and future member of Old Europe. Bush is uniting Europe faster than anybody else could, as opposition to US can only grow.



Generally their armies have an average age over 40. Some of their armies will soon average over fifty. Compare this to the U.S. armies with young physically fit soldiers with the finest equipment ever produced, much of it equipment which no other nation can match. There's simply no comparison.

So long as no one invades them, they can feel powerful and independent and issue these rather odd statements.

Your ignorance is hilarious. Unlike US, most of Europeans, young and old, have military training, and the men-power surpasses US many times. Nobody is invading, because nobody can, Europe is perfectly capable of defending itself. EU is quickly evolving into defence alliance, with nuclear deterrence provided by French. Europe just doesn't see the need to develop imperial style army like US, but conventional defensive capability is more than enough for the job. US cannot threaten Europe or China or even Iran and NK with it's mighty army, and is loosing in Iraq, so what's the use spending all year wealth building useless weapons and bankrupting your nation Soviet style?



They can fume and sign these indignant little agreements all they want. But America acts. It's that simple.

Yes, America is simple. The indignant little agreements are forming networks, shared interests and goodwill all over the globe that shifts the balance of power gradually, ways unseen by stupid Americans, making US more and more irrelevant, so the carpet can be pulled under it when the time comes. Not much effort of economic backstabbing needed, the fundamentals will do that for us and only thing needed is to deny to bail US economy out from the abyss.


Thanks for the opportunity, now you can crawl back to your cave of ignorant bliss! :D

[VegasWolf]

53. Yes, good analysis. the author obviously has no sense of history or of

the ultimate costs of imperialism that amerika is taking on.

[Swede]

44. France's military is almost 500,000 strong and in posted in dozens of

countries. They even have aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons.

[Flagg]

47. Do you know what the most embarassing secret of freepers is ?

Deep down, they're afraid of France.

[chimp chump]

55. the French superpower

"France's military is almost 500,000 strong and in posted in dozens of
countries. They even have aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons."

Ah, this is too rich.

Their flagship carrier, the DeGaulle, is a basket case. During it's last major sortie, one of the propellers fell off. It barely limped into port, French officials fearing the humiliation of having it towed in. The reactor is so leaky and dangerous that it's a health hazard to the crew. The launchers were so poorly designed they had to be retrofitted with a cute little extension so they could launch their American-made reconnaisance aircraft. They require routine maintainance calls from, yes, American technicians. It's so unreliable, they won't venture more than a few hundred miles from France with it.

I expect that if they tried to use their old nukes from the Sixties, they'd probably fizzle or blow up in their faces. France's reactor designs are actually quite dated and reminiscent of the more dangerous older Soviet reactors.

The list goes on. But if you want to trust the towering French superpower, I'll remind you of the inpenetrable Maginot line and what happened there.

Oh, yeah, and the DeGaulle was the first of two major carriers for the French 21st century fleet. They just cancelled the second one last year and are going to buy a much smaller but seaworthy British carrier.

You know, this great French military would be more impressive if they could even defeat the natives of Cote D'Ivoire, a recent news item you might have seen.

Soon they'll be begging the U.S. to help them avoid humiliation at the hands of the workers of their chocolate plantations in Africa. Like they begged us to nuke the Vietnamese at Dien Ben Phu. Or perhaps they'll just instigate another massacre of hundreds of thousands of civilians, like they did in Rwanda in the mid-Nineties under the very eyes of the U.N. More advanced French thinking and diplomacy. But what I see are the demonstrations from the Ivorians begging the U.S. to save them from the French colonialists and their Muslim allies who wish to impose the usual shari'a law on them. France, in alliance with radical Muslims, is going to rack up a genocide toll in Africa that will exceed even that of Belgium in the Congo. Okay, I know, Belgium is over 40% French so they came by it honestly.

Thanks for the laugh.

[Flagg]

58. No, thank YOU for the laughs.

lol

[Rochambeau]

61. Lol update your datas once again they are years outdated.

AC Charles De Gaulle worked absolutely perfectly in the Indian ocean during the anti-taliban campain (where its Rafales fighters severely defeated US F18 and F14 in joint exercices by the way.(USS. John C Stennis)). The carrier needed several modifications during its testing and validating campain. Do you have any reports concerning the way each US aircraft carrier class worked during their testing campain? Try some research it can help you. Do you know how works an industrial testing and validation campain and why industrial manufacturers do some?
The Charles De Gaulle carrier has been tested and tuned during his absolutely normal campain which was led in order to test the systems and see what had to be modified just has it happened with any US carrier class (with very funny results too). It now works perfectly and so do its planes thank you. Next ?

PS: the french Navy is studying the design of a franco-british carrier because Nukulear carriers are 1: too expensive 2: not really useful to France and the smallest/cheaper one we are working on will be far enough alonside the CDGaulle carrier. The Brits don't have any equivalent to the C.d Gaulle carrier and it is the only one with such capacities in Europe (the others are russians or americans). About its planes the Rafales are clearly the best naval fighters in the world today until the F35 appears in operations (if it ever do).

Don't thank me it's always a pleasure to help an uninformed "fellow DUer".

A few datas to help you dear "fellow DUer" : http://www.netmarine.net/photos/index.htm

Rafale & F.18(USS Roosevelt)


Last and least :ITS Maestrale (F 570), FS De Grasse (D 612), USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74), USS Port Royal (CG 73), FS Charles de Gaulle (R 91), HMS Ocean (L 12), FS Surcouf (F 711), USS John F. Kennedy (CV 67), HNLMS Van Amstel (F 831), and ITS Luigi Durand de la Penne (D 560) (April 18 2002- Operation Enduring Freedom).

[chimp chump]

64. .

Just let me know when the DeGaulle can launch two planes at once.

[Flagg]

65. What a lame-ass comeback

that's all you got ?

C'mon,a big freeper boy like you.

LOL

[chimp chump]

73. you live in a Chirac fantasy world

where France is still a world power. They're not.

Real military powers: America, China, Russia, Israel, Britain, India, Turkey, Pakistan, North Korea. Maybe we would include Germany and Japan and Iran. I'd list France after all of them in effectiveness.

They're members of NATO. Their liabilities are pretty well known.

[Rochambeau]

77. So pathetically typical.........

OK, let's not talk about USA and Russia and OK if it can please you about GB and Israel too (but it can be highly discussed either but I don't intend to waist my time with you any longer) but to pretend that Pakistan, Turkey, India, Germany, Iran and Japan have a more important military potential than France currently just proves how "serious" you are as a contradictor. That statement can't resist a second to a precise and documented study. You are absolutely clueless on that subject and if it was necessary, which is not regarding that ultimate ridiculous bullshit delivery, the posts above prove it.
I don't know in which fantasy land YOU live in but I have an idea. It should be somewhere in a Disney complex in JebBushland. Your self confidence in professing false informations without any serious back up but stupid prejudices as much as your blatant ignorance betray you. You are so typical freeper boy. I'll bow on your tombstone, sooner or later, one second, or two, maybe...

EDIT : I can even point your source very precisely. Kaboom freeper boy lol ! Every argument comes from here ! Hahahah the smocking gun.
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1034110/posts

[Saeba]

79. Well, it’s far better than to live in the *bush’s fantasy world.

I'm not necessary a fan of French myself, but your rant against them is not only ridicule, it's also undocumented. If you want to pursue your French bashing, you should better to get some facts.

But I presume that you don't need facts, nor care about moral, if I can judge by your previous posts. I take some quotes from your "the French superpower":

"You know, this great French military would be more impressive if they could even defeat the natives of Cote D'Ivoire, a recent news item you might have seen."
I guess that you never hear about peacekeeping, do you? I know that it can seem strange to you but the French are mandated by the UN not to "defeat native" as you say, but to try to avoid a civil war.

"Soon they'll be begging the U.S. to help them avoid humiliation at the hands of the workers of their chocolate plantations in Africa."
Well, presently it's more the U.S. that begs for international help in Iraq, and even from France by the way. Funny, isn't it?

"But what I see are the demonstrations from the Ivorians begging the U.S. to save them from the French colonialists and their Muslim allies who wish to impose the usual shari'a law on them."
And I suppose that in your world you see also the Iraqis begging the U.S. to save them, but from what in fact?

To finish with your obsession about military power, remember that 15 years ago, the USSR was also a superpower. Time goes...

[Rochambeau]

68. C'mon ombre please change of subject, you don't know what you are talking

about. (clueless is the word isn't it ?)

Ok I'll let you know. The CDGaulle has TWO catapults of 75 meters long each and launches two 20 tons aircrafts at 150 nautic miles (275KPH) at once.
Next?

[chimp chump]

75. Ah.

The new French nuclear carrier "Charles de Gaulle" has suffered from a seemingly endless string of problems since it was first conceived in 1986. The 40,000 ton ship has cost over four billion dollars so far and is slower than the steam powered carrier it replaced. Flaws in the "de Gaulle" have led it to using the propellers from it predecessor, the "Foch," because the ones built for "de Gaulle" never worked right and the propeller manufacturer went out of business in 1999. Worse, the nuclear reactor installation was done poorly, exposing the engine crew to five times the allowable annual dose of radiation. There were also problems with the design of the deck, making it impossible to operate the E-2 radar aircraft that are essential to defending the ship and controlling offensive operations. Many other key components of the ship did not work correctly, including several key electronic systems. The carrier has been under constant repair and modification. The "de Gaulle" took eleven years to build (1988-99) and was not ready for service until late 2000. It's been downhill ever since. The de Gaulle is undergoing still more repairs and modifications. The government is being sued for exposing crew members to dangerous levels of radiation.-StrategyPage.com

The list of problems is endless. When all the washing machines are run at once, the whole ship shivers. The armored glass for the bridge is opaque.

It's a floating disaster. The head of the shipyard workers' union said the result had to be an act of sabotage. And then the correspondence between the defense minister and the builder of the propellers suddenly caught fire.

Yeah, a real source of national pride. I suppose it can limp around and launch a few planes as long as British or American task forces are protecting it.

[Rochambeau]

78. See posts #61 freeper boy. I've already answer you...if you can read.

EDIT : I can even point your source very precisely. It is that thread in Free Republic !
Every arguments you mentioned above and more specificaly those which are not mentionned in the StrategyPage article come from here. 10 minutes of researches and I find the smocking gun. So pathetic. I can read you as an open book freeper boy.

[Donkeyboy75]

62. HAHAHAHA

"You know, this great French military would be more impressive if they could even defeat the natives of Cote D'Ivoire, a recent news item you might have seen.

Soon they'll be begging the U.S. to help them avoid humiliation at the hands of the workers of their chocolate plantations in Africa. Like they begged us to nuke the Vietnamese at Dien Ben Phu. Or perhaps they'll just instigate another massacre of hundreds of thousands of civilians, like they did in Rwanda in the mid-Nineties under the very eyes of the U.N. More advanced French thinking and diplomacy. But what I see are the demonstrations from the Ivorians begging the U.S. to save them from the French colonialists and their Muslim allies who wish to impose the usual shari'a law on them. France, in alliance with radical Muslims, is going to rack up a genocide toll in Africa that will exceed even that of Belgium in the Congo. Okay, I know, Belgium is over 40% French so they came by it honestly.

Thanks for the laugh."

I will be amazed if you have enough grey matter to see the irony in these three paragraphs. First, the U.S. is having trouble subduing the natives of two countries right now...hmm...can't quite recall the names...

Also, the U.S. is begging for help now in Iraq after stepping their foot in it over there.

[BonjourUSA]

70. France is in Ivory Coast with an UN mandate and..

for rescuing all foreign residents (US include).

[Rochambeau]

48. Uh we have a military expert here ! lol You need to get datas

more recent than your 60ies one obviously. Funny anyway. Next ?

[aneerkoinos]

59. Whose the guy

who can't get it up without sticking a barrel in his rectum while mocking French?

[Rochambeau]

63. He is a well informed military expert. Muarrrfff. n/t

[Kellanved]

52. hear hear

These three cannot dictate EU policy to the rest of the EU. Not for long anyway.

Nor do they want to. This is precisely the point.


New Europe, the newest members of the EU, are all allies and supporters of the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention Italy and Britain. And some other EU countries are not too uniform in their reaction to U.S. policy.

The Afghanistan mission is currently under a joint French/German command. Both countries have several thousand soldiers to air, land and sea deployed to fight international terrorism.



They have no airlift capacity and, outside Britain, barely have seaborne transport. They won't spend money on first-rate equipment except Germans and Brits and even they have limits. Outside of Britain and Germany, the rest of Europe is essentially undefended except for a glorified police force. They parade their EU military up and down the boulevards of the capitals of Europe from time to time to make people think they are safe and can still project power outside the region. But they can't.

I don't see why military capabilities have anything to do with the discussion. The issues are a disagreement on how to handle cooperation and how to line up the EU; Europe has no interest in challenging America's military superiority.
However, the French Army is the best equipped in Europe today, far outclassing the German one. Also, many European countries have a draft going on, with automatic reserve status to many adult citizens.



Let's keep in mind that the combined might of EU couldn't even settle down the military conflict in Kosovo/Bosnia back in the Nineties. They required Clinton to bring American force to bomb their way to imposing a solution. It was a bad solution and their subsequent mismanagement of the peace has been a festering failure and tragedy ever since. Pathetic as their military efforts in Kosovo/Bosnia were, they've cut funding more, their troops are older. So they're even less capable now. Due to their floundering economic performance, they're going to cut their military even more.

The Kosovo conflict's circumstances aside, I fail to see catastrophic mismanagement afterwards. Your claims about troop age and everything completely fail to make any point whatsoever.
But, yeah. Iraq sure showed the whole world how young, well trained soldiers can keep the peace in a region after a war. Just maybe a police force wouldn't have been such a bad idea.



They can fume and sign these indignant little agreements all they want. But America acts. It's that simple.

Yes, that sums up the problem quite nicely.
There was a time when America did see the value of cooperation. The world economy was booming and everybody was perfectly willing to make reasonable concessions for American interests. Somehow it seems like a very long time ago.

[chimp chump]

56. .

"I don't see why military capabilities have anything to do with the discussion."

I'm sure you don't.

[antonialee839]

31. What is this resounding crap?

tonia= not one of the resounding.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

42. "The US has spoken, it's time for Europe to listen"

O.K. Tony, the world should be servient to Bush???

:wtf:???

[Bo]

46. tell Blair to shutup and go kill some Iraqis

Crusades 2003-2008 are underway..onward christian soldgiers

[KitSileya]

51. God, I wish the European nations would stick it to him!

We need them to stand up against him. Heck, even I, a longtime no-to-the-EU Norwegian, have been thinking about how perhaps we should join now, and help make the EU a counterbalance to the US.

[VegasWolf]

54. Blair's not worried, awol has loaned him our "voting machines" n/t

[GarySeven]

57. Now what if the United States of Europe

decided it was time to "liberate" the American people from the oppression of a despotic tyrant who has stockpiled weapons of mass destruction and threatens the world?

Could the combined armies of Europe, including Russia, supplied by China defeat the U.S.? Oh my God yes.

[aneerkoinos]

60. No, sorry

There is no military solution to your domestic problem, other than civil war. Destroying the whole world in attempt to save your sorry asses from despotism would not make much sense. ;)

[maddogesq]

66. DOGGIE NEWSFLASH: Here Fido(Tony), here puppy....

OMG, what a fricking poodle this guy is. I hope the Brits rise up and kick has ass all the way to the Arctic.

[HannibalBarca]

69. Counterweight?

There are several problems to the proposition of an EU counterweight to the US. Firstly US defence spending is nothing short of phenomenal. I believe current stats have it dwarfing the next 20 countries combined, including Russia, China.
The US is one unified (well in a way) country with one economy one language and one prevailing culture. Europe is a fairly eclectic mixture of countries each with vastly different capabilities and cultures and seems to have problems integrating probably because they wish to retain some semblance of national identity.
As much as I would like a counterweight to Emperor Chimp and Darth Cheney I am afraid that it won’t happen for a long, long time, if ever. Even China, who many hail as an upcoming superpower, is several orders of magnitude behind the US in every conceivable way, not even one nuclear aircraft carrier.
It's unfortunate but true and it’s why an American president must be thoughtful, intelligent and an internationalist and most importantly never arrogant. Need I say more?

[aneerkoinos]

71. Not military

Yep, US defence spending is phenomenal, by official numbers currently 400 billion/year, close to one fifth of the federal budget. US would have no public debt problem without such military spending.

And the real numbers are much uglier:
http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

HALF THE INCOME TAX YOU PAY GOES TO MILITARY SPENDING!!!

Needless to say, the debt problem created by military spending is killing your economy, bankrupting US and that way destroying also your military might. Couldn't be happier! :D

EU don't need big military might to counterweight US. EU:s counterweight is euro, which is replacing dollar as international reserve currency at increasing rate and challenging the petrodollar empire on which US economy is founded. European pluralism contra uniculture is BTW strengh, not weakness.

China don't need excessive military might to counterweight US. It has allready become the dominating manufacturing power of the world and is using the cashflow US (and other) consumers send there to buy control of worlds natural resources. Also China's position as major debtor to US gives it REALLY big stick to use if and when necessary.

South America has very recently (in four years of Bush) freed itself from US and neoliberal IMF dominance by electing leftist leadership in nearly every country and is now integrating following the EU example, not joining the US dominated FTAA. The days of US neocolonialism in what used to be the southern backyard are numbered, as the days when US could dictate to Latin America are over. Chavez survived victorious, more powerfull than before, and has the counterweight of threat of oil-embargo against US.

In fact, the whole world economy is counterweight to US and the crushing has allready began. You just can't see that if you don't look carefully.

[Deja Q]

67. Thank goodness for sanity & when will Blair get his free milkbone biscuit?

Veddy interestink... but dangerous.

[VegasWolf]

74. Jeez, even awol is laughing at this clown. Shut up tony and just

do what you are told!

[Algomas]

80. What time is it now?

Could the Nukuler Armageddon time be 11:59:59???

Just imagine our economy spinning out of control. At the wheel we have a shill for international corporate gangsters. Who before the electoral fraud looked like he realized he might end up the patsy. Who happens to believe his own bullshit. Who is also controlled by the amerikan Taliban.

Who would Jesus nuke first????
Seems to me the big threat is China. How many nukes do we have pointed at them right now???

We are in the cross-hairs of an unholy convergence of greed, religion and incompetence. If Europe and Asia took steps right now to derail our war wagon there might be a glimmer of hope.
If they wait until a major US military offensive in the Mid-East it could just elicit escalation. These paranoid nutjobs who have hijacked our country won't hesitate to lash out and lob nukes if it feels threatened.