Breaking on CNNI: An Iraqi General Deserts after recieving battle plans

[maddezmom]

for Fallujah. Left his weapon and uniform. Will look for a link.

edited to add CNNInternational...and I'm still looking for a link.

[Mel]

1. not good

not good at all! I have horrible feeling the US is going to nuke Fallujah.

[molly]

4. I think they will sacrifice our young soliders

[screembloodymurder]

129. I had the same thought

and I believe the loss will bring a call for a return of the draft. Hate to say it, but I think they're planning on a high number of American casulties in Fallujah.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[schultzee]

27. If we use a Nuke, we open the door for Pakistan and other to do the

same. Once that door is opened, it can never be closed. If the B administration is stupid enough to do this, we all will pay with our lives.

[Zero Gravitas]

29. They were stupid enough to invade in the first place

[aquart]

32. Are they stupid and short-sighted enough?

Do bears shit in the woods?

[truthseeker1]

57. They don't fricking care!

The plan is to nuke Iran eventually.

[everythingsxen]

35. They won't "nuke" Fallujah.... but they might.....

use a Neutron Bomb.

Alternately, they could just use a Fuel-Air Bomb. Hell it's practically as good as a nuke; except no fallout and technically not violating any treaties... (except the Geneva Convention thing about killing civilians - and I think their may have been 1 or 2 legal precidents set back in, oh 46? You know at that silly little place Nuremberg.)

[gulfcoastliberal]

70. Err... a Neutron bomb is a nuclear fission device

designed to minimize physical damage (blast) and enriched for maximum radiation poisoning. Falluja would be glowing if used one of those immoral weapons.

As for the FAE bombs, you're right, the blastwave is nearly as powerful as a nuke, if not worse since it is specially designed to crush, dry roast, and cause max injuries. Google FAEs and Checheneya - the Russians have been using them for years. Some good its done them.

[jpak]

86. Actually, it's a thermonuclear (fission/fusion) bomb

(just a technical point)

[VegasWolf]

97. Actually ,bush is trying out a new variant of a cold fusion bomb -

Kills all the people but leaves the oil infrastructure in place.

[gulfcoastliberal]

106. That's right, forgot they are thermonukes

Scary shit.

[MacCovern]

36. Expeditious militarily, Disasterous Politically

So therefore it will never happen in Fallujah or anywhere else
in Iraq during this conflict.

Iraq is going to have elections in January, so the USA, although
it was dumb enough to invade the country has not lost its
collective mind completely.

As far as using discretion in my criticisms, I feel it is important
to tell it like it is when the truth is plainly obvious.
There is no cause to rattle other DUers into thinking nuclear
weapons will be used in Iraq when it plainly will not happen.

[mhr]

46. Your Opinion, Your Opinion Only - I Would Not Put Anything Past Bush

You can choose to believe differently.

[truthseeker1]

58. "has not lost its collective mind completely"

Ha! Surely you jest.....

[Comadreja]

60. Historical precedent

No opposing superpower this time. In fact, Putin might even approve.

"The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care." . . . "I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think big." : Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the Watergate tapes

Nixon was a moderate by Bu$h standards

[jobycom]

80. You don't know Bush

First, he doesn't care about his political future. Second, he's been dying to blow up a bomb since he took office. Remember all the Pentagon memos about limited nuclear wars when W took office? Remember all the countries he listed as places we could use nukes against? That wasn't an excercise, this man is Dr. Strangelove, he wants to use one.

Third, the bloodthirsty baby-killers who voted for him would cheer him on. If they had ANY ethics, ANY morality left Bush would be crying in Crawford right now. We are Nazi Germany, and anything Bush does will be praised by the media and worshipped by the people.

It's a different world, a different country. 9-11 didn't change anything, but December 12th, 2000, certainly did.

He may not use nukes in Fallujah, though I wouldn't put it past him. But they have been preparing for it for a long time. Bush has toys, and he wants to use them. He's even had right wing cronies write books about it to pave the way. I'd put at least even money on it happening before Bush leaves office.

[54anickel]

91. "9-11 didn't change anything, but December 12th, 2000, certainly did"

AWESOME statement. I'm making a plaque of that! I'd love a bumper sticker that says that!

Mind if I use it?

[burythehatchet]

131. I agree. That is very good. History will regard 12/12

as a more significant date than 9/11

[Comadreja]

103. All's fair against "Satan"

Mini-nukes would be so delightfully Godlike. His first "Shock and Awe" wasn't such a big whoop, but imagine the effect of nuking an entire city to ashes! His constituency wants the Apocolypse, after all.

[truthpusher]

24. have you listened to RWRadio lately? they all like the idea...

[underpants]

26. Yeah they do

I've heard it on Rush and (therefore) a local radio idiot.

[truthpusher]

49. I am sure they will start to use small nukes...

[donkeyotay]

130. I'm so cross-eyed, I thought you wrote "smart" nukes

Like the smart bombs that only kill terrists.

[puddycat]

55. I was chilled to the bone when I talked to a conservative yesterday

He kept saying that we are a country born of violence and that we have the right to invade any country we want to, and destroy and take what we need. He loved the idea of war. I felt like puking. This was a contractor I refused to do business with.

I do believe we have a far far more dangerous situation than we even realize, because these total sociopaths are in charge. We will all suffer because of *.

[barb162]

63. these people who love war so much always seem to stay out of the

fighting. Chickenhawk bastards like Bush, Cheney, Wolfowicz, etc. And this conservative you were talking to. I'd like to send all of them there first.

[NorthernSpy]

98. time was, a lot of Germans felt the same way

Countries that behave like that inevitably get dealt with. We need to quit assuming that the Universe has made some kind of eternal exception for us.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. I'd like to know more about those plans and the general.

What would you do if you thought the plans were to bomb a city and its civilians? What happened to tactical commando raids a la Arnold Swarznegger movies? Why are we having so much trouble identifying the enemy?

[Streetdoc270]

31. you have trouble when

You have made everyone the enemy. You can't id them because every time you kill someones wife, sister, child you make them want to take up arms aginst the occupiers.

[truthseeker1]

59. Ultimtately, the "Iraqi" General is Iraqi

the plan must have been so horrible he couldn't justify carrying it out on his own Iraqi countrymen (and women and children)

[0007]

72. That would shit can the U.S. for sure if that happened.

We've pretty much have become the pariah of the community.

[donco6]

2. Yes, here's the plan, General . . .

. . . you're going to go into Fallujah and start killing your own people - regardless of whether they have a weapon or not. See, we don't know who's with us or against us, so we just have to kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out. Right? Got it? Uh, general, where ya goin'?

[The Zanti Regent]

5. I bet they told him something else

"Now, Looky here General, all they gotta do is just accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and we'll let them live!"

[donco6]

8. Conquistadors revisited.

The Conquistadors had a technique they used against the natives - they would first offer their sword hilt-up in the form of a cross. If the natives submitted themselves, they were spared. If they didn't, the sword was reversed and they were slaughtered.

[eleny]

6. That sounds spot on

Fallujah is supposed to be house to house fighting. Can you even imagine beng sent to do that in your own country? I heard on the radio this morning that many our troops on this mission don't have experience in that kind of fighting.

[tapper]

56. NPR last night - hadn't studied counter-insurgency in decades

They were talking about it last night on NPR; that the military hadn't been studying (let alone training) on how to do counter-insurgency since Vietnam. IIRC, someone at the War College just created a new book on it -- the first since the 60s or 70s.

[Comadreja]

104. Seems i read that the training was being done in Israel

Who else? The bombing and rocketing of urban centers is Israeli. I expect the bulldozers are idling and ready.

[maddezmom]

108. only for the US embassy

I'll look for the link about the 3 day crash course for the folks going into Fallujah.

edited to add link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x965345

[molly]

3. Visualize suicide

[Minstrel Boy]

7. sounds like something a patriot might do n/t

[AlamoDemoc]

9. OMG, this is not a good news for people of Fallujah.

[Bluebear]

114. exactly so

[underpants]

10. I don't want to say "deserted" but it sounds like what Shinseki did

when he saw OUR uh "plans".

I IN NO WAY want to imply that Gen. Shinseki did anything wrong (please don't read it that way) and I know that he was retired by them but the comparison can be made.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

12. Thanks for the update, and working to find the link...I'm horrified at

what we've to done to the decent, hard working Iraqis caught in the middle of this mess we've perpetrated.

I'm fearful about the Fallujah action. MKJ

[mhr]

23. I Am Horrified That More People Don't Understand That We Invaded

their country illegally and they have a right to defend it.

Regardless of how many of our boys get killed.

The real responsibility lies with the mistaken policies of one *.

[puddycat]

62. These men should refuse to take part in the genocide of innocent people

I feel terribly sorry for those young men, but they are being made into monsters by *, and they are better off resisting and refusing and facing prison than to take part in mass genocide.

We have to spread the word to people to refuse to join the current military under any circumstances. And we need to assist those who refuse to kill innocent people.

[Comadreja]

107. Where do you live?

These are mainly Fundie NASCAR kids who want to go and experience just another "Ultimate Reality" show that automatically imputes hero status on them no matter what atrocitties they commit. They would laugh in your face.

[puddycat]

118. lol, I don't really expect these guys to lay down their arms

I am just trying to make the point that I'm sick of playing the little patriot game of pretending these people are fighting "for freedom".

I can't remember a war--ever--in my lifetime which was necessary and where our troops fought "for our freedom". Its all imperialistic violent warmongering garbage. This country has so many good points but our love of militaristic warmongering has got to stop or it will destroy us. No democracy survives this kind of stuff. We are so far off track from Tom Jefferson's and Hamilton's vision that its a tragedy.

I guess I'm too old to fall for this government bullshit anymore. Its a fucking tragedy all around. We need a military to defend our borders and that's it--and maybe a few nukes to have handy in case some other asshole country lobs a few at us first.

Way too much male hormones gone amok.

[grasswire]

13. uh..........

...I think this means they'll have to change the battle plans.

How do they possibly think they can rely on Iraqis to fight Iraqis?

[leftchick]

40. that "Iraqi fighter " thing was all a ruse anyway...

What, we have something like 10,00 US Marines and so they added a few hundred (if they were lucky) actual Iraqis and called it a joint invasion with Allawi calling the shots. uh, yeah right!

[DulceDecorum]

14. wiki on Fallujah

Fallujah (also Fallouja, Falluja, or Al Fallujah) is a city of some 285,000 inhabitants in the Iraqi province of Al Anbar (Umbar), forty miles west of Baghdad. Within Iraq, it is known as the "city of mosques" for the more than 200 mosques found in the city and surrounding villages. It has long been one of the most important places to Sunni Islam in the region.
<snip>

Fallujah was one of the most peaceful areas of the country just after the fall of Saddam. There was very little looting and the new mayor of the city — Taha Bidaywi, selected by local tribal leaders — was staunchly pro-US. When the US Army entered the town in April 2003, they located themselves at the vacated Ba'ath Party headquarters — an action that erased some goodwill, especially when many in the city had been hoping the US Army would stay outside of the relatively calm city.
<snip>

On the evening of April 28, 2003, a crowd of 200 people celebrating the birthday of Saddam Hussein defied the Coalition curfew and gathered outside a government building to protest against the US-led coalition forces who had entered the city.
During the protest, several gunmen within the crowd opened fire on the US troops. Fifteen Iraqi civilians died from US gunfire. There were no coalition casualties.
<snip>

Independent journalist Tara Sutton, in a report into atrocities notes that the killing of the American contractors happened in the context of a long-simmering exchange of hostilities, most notably by the shooting by American troops of seventeen Fallujah residents at an "anti-America" demonstration in April of 2003. "This was the context of the March 31 lynching. The impact of the images upon American public opinion was huge," Sutton said, while the previous history was ignored. <2> (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jun2004/fall-j02.shtml)
<snip>

In September 2004, US Marine commander Lt Gen James Conway criticised his military and civilian superiors over their handling of Fallujah: "We felt that we probably ought to let the situation settle before we appeared to be attacking out of revenge." He also criticised his superiors for "vacillating" after the offensive had started: "Once you commit you have to stay committed." <10> (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/14/wirq14.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/14/ixworld.html) Although it is not clear how high up the chain of command the decision was taken to attack Fallujah, a Newsweek report suggests that it was taken in the White House, with George Bush ordering "Let heads roll."
<snip>

In October, 2004 the U.S. military prepared for a major offensive against the rebel stronghold with stepped up daily aerial attacks using precision-guided munitions against alleged militant "safe houses," restaurants and meeting places in the city. Scores of residents, many of them reportedly civilian men, women and children, were killed by the intense bombing campaign according to hospital authorities. U.S. military spokesmen deny causing mass civilian casualties and claim that that only militants are targeted, although they admit that unavoidable "collateral damage" — death of innocent bystanders — occurred. City leaders continue to maintain that no insurgents occupy the city of Fallujah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah

[donkeyotay]

124. Ignoring the context should be our national motto

"This was the context of the March 31 lynching. The impact of the images upon American public opinion was huge," Sutton said, while the previous history was ignored.

Although it is not clear how high up the chain of command the decision was taken to attack Fallujah, a Newsweek report suggests that it was taken in the White House, with George Bush ordering "Let heads roll."

Thanks for the links reminding us that stupidy and evil didn't just beam in from Mars.

[rfkrocks]

15. or the battle plans are in the hands of the insurgents?

if the hardcore generals won't fight I can't imagine the Iraq National Guard soldier will do better-sounds like Vietnam again-lets call up the swiftboat vets and have them lead us-they know better don't they?-the swiftboat vets want this war don't they?-I am sure they will help the wounded when they get back and not turn their backs on their younger companions now would they? I am sure the swiftboat vets will be at Walter Reed when the brain damaged young soldiers come home wont' they? I already know the answer

[Career Prole]

45. There you go...the battle plans are in the hands of the insurgents

That was also my first thought. This whole "war" is more like An Evening At The Improv than anything else. The only part that was planned by the chickenhawks (I'll never forget cheney calling J.K. an armchair general) was the taking of Baghdad. The idiots assumed all else would fall into place.
They've been faking it and making it up ever since.
The neocons then decided to speed things up to fit the U.S. election schedule (denying it all the while) and punted on the turn-over and the formation of the "new" Iraqi army by the expedient of giving the guns back to the old Iraqi army. The incompetent asses then could claim the Iraqis were "taking responsibility for their own security".
This went over big with their equally ignorant base back in the states...they fell for it just as Rove and Cheney expected.
These stupid bastards probably knew as soon as their "Fallujah Brigade" jumped ship after the initial Marine pull-out that this would backfire on them but so long as they didn't actually try to pit Iraqi against Iraqi until after our election it wouldn't matter.
I hope and pray that they at least planned for mass casualties, because Plan A just went to the insurgency with the deserting Iraqi general, and our guys who have to actually do the fighting are forced to go to Plan B thanks to the f**ing shrub administration.
:grr:

[reprobate]

78. Do you really think there is a plan B. I doubt it.

The ignorant fools in the white house likely believe that their plan A will succeed no matter what. There wasn't a plan B after the invasion, so what the hell would they need a plan B now for?

I wonder who has the consetion for Stupid Pills in the white house? No group of people could be that dumb naturaly. They must have chemical help.

[mitchtv]

75. Let's quit with the "insurgent "term of the Occupation

they are Iraqi patriots,partisans, freedom fighters or, Resistance fighters. I support their fight against the invading imperialists. Sounds commie, but it isn't it is like Vietnam, a war of National liberation.

[Minstrel Boy]

16. How long ago is it that Iraqi generals were condemned for "killing

their own people"?

[maddezmom]

17. when was the last time* spoke?

he's on vacation now, but I'm sure he mentioned it yesterday atleast a million times.

[VegasWolf]

37. Hey ,its hard work being prez. Hard, hard work! n/t

[lebkuchen]

18. CNN/CNNI-- I no longer watch it

report back if anything changes

[Kemet]

20. was it expected ?

The wild theory being that the gen was expected to desert and give made up battleplans to the insurgents so they would deploy where it would suit the us army.

... ok, this is just a theory... How smart can the military planners be?

[maddezmom]

21. still can't find a link..but CNNI is still reporting, Marines searchin

for him now. He went missing Friday from a base near Fallujah, he was a Kurd, and the Marines say it will not change thier battle plans.

[prayin4rain]

28. He was a Kurd...

It is amazing to see a Kurd a person who really was butalized by Saddam not being able to stomach the imminent slaughter. While a nation of cowards over here sleep well knowing those people are dying. I live in Dallas and I cannot even look people in the eye anymore, they just disgust me.

[anarchy1999]

96. Welcome to DU from another Dallasite. Check out the state forums.

There are quite a few of us. Sorry to have to welcome you under such sad circumstances. I'm doing all I can do to try and stop this. I'm at my wit's end and leaving tomorrow to take one week off. No computer contact period.

[prayin4rain]

105. Thanks for the welcome, I'll look at the state forum.

[VegasWolf]

22. Hey general, do you recognize this little girl -

[Tesibria]

34. ... .....

.... OOOUUGGGGHHHHH

Do you know when this was taken?

As I said here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=12267&mesg_id=12267 - we need to end the embargo on the war's reality and start posting these on our daily blogs. The MSM won't do it here -- so we HAVE to do it.

I'd love to know when this was taken/where -- to add it to my blog.

gracie.

[VegasWolf]

41. Yes, the link is -

http://www.dewaarheid.nu/mrt01/iraq_wound_dead.htm

[Tesibria]

53. thank you - i've added this to my site.

... the photos are horrendous - difficult to look at - but they ARE reality.

makes me sick

[saskatoon]

90. link to Shia news

http://www.shianews.com/hi/middle_east/news_id/0000758.php
They are pretty ghastly so be prepared as in one little boy with half his skull blown away---lying there dead, my god it is so awful.

[leftchick]

125. I actually saw that photo at yahoo earlier this week....

There are some very brave AP/AFP/Reuters photographers that get their work posted on the Yahoo Iraq photo gallery. The sad fact is probably some of the most graphic, must see to comprehend the slaughter type photos never make it there.

[bread_and_roses]

42. I don't know what to do

I am so sick over all this, so sick, I have been in a state of continual rage and grief since the start of all this and there seems to be nothing, nothing, we can do. I wrote to my Senator, the very same Hillary Clinton being touted by some here, in April, over Fallujah, and never even received a response.

I worked hard on her campaign here in Upstate NY; I will be damned to hell if I do one hour or one dollar for her again.

I put my energy and time and money behind Kerry even though he wasn't promising to end this insane occupation and slaughter of civilians because I hoped that if elected he would do the right thing. I reminded myself of his Vietnam protests, I told myself that he COULDN'T, WOULDN'T really support more civilian slaughter. I told myself the American electorate COULD NOT re-elect this murderous regime. And they did. My countrymen and women.

What can we do.

[Comadreja]

64. The electorate

[Comadreja]

66. I've wondered the same

It's an enigma. Moving to another country is about the only way I can think of to avoid being a part of this madness, but then you will be called a deserter. Actually, at this point, there is nothing left to the loyal opposition. We cannot change minds when the Bushies have no minds left. I wonder if I'll even bother to write letters to the editor any more. Only experiencing the bad effects of their collective idiocy will open some eyes.

[Expat_Kristen]

50. We need a website full of these pictures

The american people do not see this. How can anyone look at this and think it's OK what we're doing???

I think I'm going to be sick.

[prayin4rain]

54. www.robert-fisk.com

PICTURES: Victims of the Anglo-American Aggression

[Boudica]

65. A "values" idea

Every place that the "pro-lifers" protest with the abortion pictures activists have pictures of wounded and dead Iraqi children. They protest by schools we protest by schools. Get the picture. Pun not intended.

[The Zanti Regent]

92. I cannot stop crying at that picture!

All I can say is that Christians should be real proud of themselves.

[DrWeird]

99. That's probably why he deserted.

nt

[Az_lefty]

30. This was going to be a test if the new Iraqi Army.

It's clearly failed, so let's call the whole thing off.

[underpants]

33. What is wrong with this picture? (Iraqi Army training)

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Geez, if that's what behind Fallujah, then it is frightening.

I remember reading clinical psychology reports that tried to determine why so many Nazi soldiers agreed to participate in cruel and inhuman torture. The bottomline: It was because it was considered acceptable behavior for a soldier to follow orders without feeling remorse for his actions.

[Cooley Hurd]

39. Link (buried in another story - he's a Captain)...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/06/iraq.main/index.html

way down near the bottom, under "other developments":

<snip>
An Iraqi company commander who had received a full battle briefing on the expected Falluja assault has deserted a military base where U.S. and Iraqi troops are preparing. Officials discovered the commander, a Kurdish captain, was missing on Friday. Marine officials believe the man took notes from the battle briefing Thursday and and are worried he may pass the information to insurgents.
</snip>

So the insurgents might now know our battle plans? :eyes:

[AlCzervik]

43. well if they didnt before they sure will now

and if they have 24 hour news i'm sure that is also helping with their plans.

[maddezmom]

44. thanks for tracking the link down...

:)

[RedSock]

47. invaded? bush says no

according to this, * says "We're there at their invitation."

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:1NvKesN7NxsJ:news.inq7.net/mobile/html_output/20041105-17143.xml.html+%22at+their+invitation%22+bush+iraq&hl=en

[maddezmom]

67. another little blurb from reuters

An Iraqi military commander deserted U.S. forces hours after he received a full briefing on U.S. military plans to storm Falluja, CNN reported on Saturday.


But the pool report sent to Reuters from a Marine unit quoted U.S. officers as saying the desertion of the unidentified captain, a Kurdish company commander would not change plans to retake the city.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20041106/ts_nm/iraq_dc

[Sara Beverley]

113. When is a Kurd not a Kurd? When the US is killing Iraqis!

I sure hope these plans do not fall into the hands of the "insurgents"

Knowing that these plans have been stolen may cause the US to postpone for a while.

[OutsourceBush]

48. What the hell is in Fallujah that scares the shit out of the Army any way?

[Poll_Blind]

51. It's a smokescreen, a way to force the media to focus on something else.

That's my opinion, anyway. Of course, it's quite a bit cooler there so military action will not be as taxing on our troops because of the heat. Oh, people will still be killing them.

PB

[OutsourceBush]

52. dam..you are right. It takes the news off of Voter Fraud!!!

[The Magistrate]

68. Urban Areas, Sir, Are The Great Equalizer In Modern War

Superiorities in training and weaponry do not matter so much where the environment forces the encounter to point-blank range, and provides ready shelter. So long as someone has a weapon that can kill, and is willing to wait till the enemy closes, he will inflict some casualty.

When an urban area is bombarded and rubbled, it only becomes more advantageous for the defender, as the attacker's movement is further hampered by the debris, and the debris creates a great many strong points for the defender, that are nearly impossible to discern before fire is opened from them.

Where the defender knows the assault is impending, and has supplies of explosive, it is easy to prepare a devastating mine defense. This is particularly effective where the attacker is mechanized, for it is very easy to predict where vehicles will go in an urban setting if one is familiar with its street plan, and possible to force vehicles into certain routes by obstructions.

The tentativeness of U.S. operations in Fallujah proceeds from professional awareness of these things, and from a reluctance to accept the casualties that will be inflicted in the operation contemplated. Modern U.S. military forces, for a variety of reasons, do not bear casualties well. The classic calculation half a century ago was that a force could be considered stripped of combat power if a quarter of its effectives were dead or maimed; in modern U.S. forces, the proportion of serious casualties needed to reach this state is probably closer to a tenth.

"The eagerness of green troops for combat is not to be much depended on."

[bemildred]

87. It is worth mentioning that one source of this reluctance

is the fact they are already shorthanded; and another that the
"attack" is a demonstration, there is no meaningful tactical or
strategic goal in the military sense to be achieved, it is intended
to create an impression in the mind of the enemy. The troops may
not know this, but the officers ought to.

[The Magistrate]

117. Excellent Points, Mr. Mildred

It is my habit to comment mostly on the mechanics of these things, but you are quite correct about the framework in which they will occur.

The thing is a simple demonstration of frightfulness, and by classic standards in that line, will fall far short of the terror traditionally required for that technique to prove effective.

The thing will not work to quell rebellion. It is most unlikely any leadership or foreign elements remain in Falluja by now, and these will simply use the outrage produced by the expedition to rouse more fighters in other locales. It will be obvious to all in the country that mounting this operation is straining U.S. resources, so persons elsewhere can know they are immune from similar action while this engagement is ongoing, and for a good while after it is completed.

Wars are not won by making loud gestures.

"If you want to send a message, call Western Union."

[Comadreja]

109. Don't forget the "Israeli method"

In their attacks on refugee centers, they dealt with this by utilizing armored bulldozers to scrape away the buildings, sometimes with families still inside. Of course, leaflets were dropped to warn them, so it will not be our fault.

[The Magistrate]

116. Nothing Unique About That, Sir

And the Israeli forces managed the thing with a remarkably small proportion of civilian casualties, much less than generally expected in operations in an area both built up and inhabited.

We will not do nearly as well in that regard. Those things, though it suits many to blow them well out of proportion, were mere skirmishes by compare to what will occur in Fallujah, and doubtless in several other Iraqi cities as well....

"There is no land across the Volga."

[bvar22]

61. No big deal!

The Battle Plans for Fallujah are pretty simple.

The defenders:
The resistance has no armor, no air support, no cavalry, no heavy artillery, no transportation, no in place defenses to reduce, no communications, no satellite pictures, and aside from the child posted on the outskirts, no warning or coordination network. They have only one tactic: Plant booby traps, and hide individually or in small groups and, if they survive the softening up shoot at the invaders with small arms or RPGs.

The Invaders:
Surround Fallujah. Pound it to rubble. Move in with armor and gunships. Kill everything that moves.


I don't think the defecting general will tell them anything they don't already know.


Did you see the Terminator? You remember the scenes from the future where Skynet had the technology, air power and armor, and the humans were living in and defending the sewers. It will be like that. Guess who is who in Fallujah.

[VegasWolf]

69. Yeah, even PNAC should be able to pull off this massacre! n/t

[heyphillip]

71. Iraqi General deserts

I wonder did he leave or take the battle plans with him. or he may have left the plans and had a extra copy to give to the insurgents.DAMN! this war is crazy:(

[heyphillip]

76. Blood bath coming

I have a felling this is going to be a blood bath on both sides.

[leesa]

73. Tsk. Tsk. Why should they fight against their own citizens?

The US military is so stupid to believe they can invade a country without reason and then expect them to WORK for their invaders???
Of course they will take the money and free training, arms, etc and give them to their fello citizens. Why wouldn't they?
Americans are so stupid....their arrogance and nationalism does not allow them to see reality.

[aneerkoinos]

74. My theory

I find it bit implausible that a Peshmerga general would defect. It is more likely that the General was kidnapped by few patriotic men serving under him (=infiltrated resistance fighters) and delivered in the hands of resistance interrogators to spill his guts.

[wickerwoman]

115. But it's less damaging for the Bushies to say he was kidnapped

than he defected. They have no motivation to create a "defector" cover-story. And if he was kidnapped, they'd probably know about it. (The other soldiers would be missing too and I bet they would have taken some weapons and supplies with them.)

[cal04]

77. Officer deserts with battle plan

They said they believe the officer, who commanded 160 Iraqi soldiers training with US marines at a base on the outskirts of Fallujah, was not likely to hand over battle plans to rebels in the Sunni Muslim city, where Saddam Hussein loyalists and supporters of al-Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi are entrenched.

The officer disappeared one day after US marine officers gave him a full briefing on the battle plans. US officers found his uniform and automatic rifles on his bed.

"This man has no known ties with Fallujah and they (the US military) don't believe in the first instance that he is headed for Fallujah. They believe that since the captain is a Kurd, he is more likely headed up north and going home," the report said. "It is significant that he disappeared the morning after he had a full and detailed brief on the full battle plan for the assault on Fallujah."

US officers said Iraqi forces, who include former Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and former members of Saddam's Iraqi army, were among Iraqi troops training with US marines preparing to storm Fallujah. Kurds were allies of the US in last year's war that ousted Saddam.

US forces are awaiting a signal from Iraq's interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and US President George W. Bush to attack the city, where an estimated 1000 to 6000 Saddam loyalists and Arab supporters of Zarqawi are dug in.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11312324%255E1702,00.html

[johncoby2]

79. this would be funny. If it wasn't true.

Hey.....as they say in repugville: BRING IT ON!!!!!!

[this_side_up]

81. They must wait until Allawali

(spelling?) returns from Brussels, Belgium.

Does anyone know how long he has been
there? And Why? And when does he plan
to return to lead?

[leftchick]

126. He was there telling NATO members they are cowards....

for not participating in IRAQNAM... :eyes:

[pinerow]

82. Hold on to your hats folks...Not a general, the fellow is a captain

here is the link

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/06/falluja.missingcaptain/index.html

[rockydem]

83. Did he live with the plans in hand or just leave?

A critical distinction...

[maddezmom]

85. according to the lastes CNN link

he left, but they thought he took notes at the briefing...so I suppose he still has those. :shrug:

[spanone]

84. How many will die before America admits the shitstorm we're in.

It took 40 some THOUSAND in VietNam.

[Dzimbowicz]

100. I watched a CBS documentary on Vietnam last night

and saw many similarities to what is going on in Iraq. It was entitled "Dateline: Saigon" and was originally made by Charles Kuralt in 1967.

It began with "Rudyard Kipling penned a warning: 'East is East and West is West, and never the twain will meet...'" (I hope that is correct, if not please feel free to correct it.)

During interviews with Vietnamese, from their perspectives, I noticed three interesting points which I think are pertinent to our current situation in Iraq:

1. "One can only gain friendship by giving friendship in return. This is something the Americans have not learned."

2. "Are the Americans here for themselves or for Vietnam?"

3. "Trying to bring American values here will never work, our values are centuries old and we believe the world as we know it."


My question is: How much did we learn, or forget, from our mistake(s) in Vietnam? How long will it take for the majority of Americans to realize this? I truly believe that the mess in our country will become much worse before it is over.

[leftchick]

127. non of the jerks in charge served in Viet Nam...

let alone read about it.

[Dzimbowicz]

128. Sad, but true

I personally know two names on the Wall in Washington. One was the closest person I ever had as a brother (all of my siblings are female). When the Army sedan pulled up in front of his house in November 1967 I was in the front yard playing (I was 11 at the time) and I knew what had happened. It took me twelve years before I could go to Washington and make a rubbing of his name from the Wall. While I was doing this, I began to cry, knowing that his sacrifice was for a lie, for nothing. A park ranger came over and asked me if she could finish the rubbing for me. I told her that it was something that I had to do myself. She understood. However, there were these tourists, from a country I will not mention for not wanting to sound like a bigot, who were photographing me as I was doing this. It was as if I were some sort of tourist attraction. After I finished I went over to them and politely informed them that this memorial was similar to a cemetery and that their actions were irreverent. I must complement these foreign tourists because they sincerely apologized for what they had done.

[daleo]

102. I thought it was 58,000

Not to quibble.

[0007]

88. Falluja digs for its dead

[MADem]

89. I heard the guy was a KURD

...and they theorize that he just said "Screw this!" and took off for home.

Who knows? It is a total cluster there. They've left one egress road open so that people can evacuate, and I can guarantee you that there are plenty of widows and kids who are hunkered down, afraid to leave, because they have no guy with an automatic weapon and a car to get them the hell out of there, and they have no where to run. These poor people are sitting ducks, they will probably be targeted and bombed by our crew, or the insurgents will use them as human shields, either way they end up dead.

It sucks. It's weecowboy's stupid war. He is a damn fool, and probably the most unchristian so-called Christian in recent history. He makes Ivan the Terrible look like a goddamn saint.

[tedzbear]

101. I think he told them he was a Kurd.

But he wasn't really, just a double agent serving the Sunni resistance. The Americans can't tell the difference between a Kurd soldier and a Sunni soldier anyway.

This just shows the Americans are fools.

[MADem]

119. You can tell

They don't even look like Arabs. They are generally taller, longer legged, leaner, many are grey and green-eyed, and some are even blond if they wash their hair. It ain't for nothing that Hitler called them the Aryans of the Middle East. Also, they don't speak Arabic as a first language; they speak kurdish, and the accent is noticeable.

That is not to say that the guy wasn't bought off. But if they did establish that he was Kurdish, he was Kurdish.

[LiberteToujours]

93. This is sick

I am terrified of what "battle plan" would make a general quit. They are going to flatten the place.

[PurityOfEssence]

94. Can't think why...

You can give 'em weapons and salute 'em, but that doesn't mean they'll fight for you.

Can you say Stalingrad?

[maddezmom]

95. he's not the only one to turn his back on the US military

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x965345

[Gyre]

110. Just tie one of those fellows (Iraqi "soldier")

to the front of every vehicle. That way we can say they were there too. After all, they're only brown people!

Gyre

[Daisey Mae]

111. OMG .........what a mess

Will it ever end...... that Bastard... how dare him kill in the name of some made up God who loves him best when he is killing innocents.....Women and Children.... He will burn in hell for all this killing........

[Tight_rope]

122. I'm sure he has an engrave seat right up front in hell!

The chair will say, "This chair is for the chimp"!

[phillysuse]

112. Iraqi General deserts with battle plans

With apologies to Longfellow:

Listen my children for it is said
Of the ride of the patriot Mohammed Ahmed
On the 6th of November in Zero Four
No one is alive any more
Who remembers the Fallujah Dead.

He said to his friend, "If the Americans attack
By land or air from Baghdad tonight,
Hang a light in the minaret at the back
One if by land and two if by air
And I on the Tigris shore will be there
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Sunni village and farm
For the Sunni folk to be up and to arm.....

Our country was forged in a rebellion against an occupying
power from overseas.

Their country will be too.

[Zhade]

121. Very nice.

NT!

[MADem]

120. It could well be that the Kurdish captain is running home

...to tell his homies that now is as good a time as any to raid those unguarded ammo dumps, while the USMC is otherwise occupied.

I don't think the Kurds are going to take it like they have under FDR, Nixon, and GHW Bush. This time, they want autonomy leading to statehood. It would not surprise me if a good chunk of that missing ammo is in their hands. And they WILL sell to the highest bidder, if they need the cash. Or use it, against the Turks in the east, against the Iranians if they get any ideas, and against the Iraqis if they try to interfere with their consolidation around Kirkuk.

In an odd way, I don't blame them for looking out for themselves. We haven't been nice to them when they have been very helpful to us, in WW2 especially...what we did to them by hanging them out to dry vis a vis Iran was especially egregious.

[NickB79]

123. Was the title of the battle plan

Operation Human Shield and Operation Get Behind the Darkies? *South Park movie reference*