The next 4 years: a shift to "ownership society"

[Khephra]

WASHINGTON — President Bush is poised to pursue an aggressive "ownership society" agenda of Social Security privatization, new tax breaks for savings and investment and additional incentives for homeownership as cornerstones of his second-term economic initiatives.

Bush hinted as much in his victory speech Wednesday, promising: "We will reform our outmoded tax code. We will strengthen Social Security for the next generation."

His conservative supporters, meanwhile, rhapsodized about prospects for new tax and budget legislation that they asserted could remake the nation and usher in a generation of GOP dominance.

"The aim of the ownership society is to create a country of stakeholders in the American economy," said Stephen Moore, president of the Club for Growth, a conservative activist group. "We will all become capitalist investors."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002084436_bushbiz07.html

[Kinkistyle]

1. I thought we defeated the "ownership" society during the Civil War.

Huh, I guess this will be the Revival.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. We've just lost the Civil War

140 years after we thought we'd won it. The biggest mistake ever made in this nation's history was in not letting the South secede.

I apologize if I offended any Southerners.

[GoBlue]

18. That reminds me...

I am a Michigan native living in East Tennessee. When I first moved here some my co-workers razzed me about being a Yankee. Once, I reminded one of them, who's a native (but thank God a Kerry supporter), that the Yankees won the Civil War. And he smiled and said 'Who said it's over'. It maybe over now. What's even more ironic is that E. TN had a lot of Union symphathizers during the Civil War. Go figure.

[LibertyLover]

124. And that reminds me

I moved from New Jersey to Maryland, thank the Gods both blue states in the last election, and worked with a woman who did Revolutionary War historical re-enactment. I said to her once that I would have thought that living in Virginia as she did, that she would have done Civil War re-enactment. She looked me straight in the face and said "I prefer to re-enact a war that everybody agrees is over."

[China_cat]

19. In case you didn't know

South Carolina has had new articles of secession drawn up for several years now, just waiting for the right time to enact them.

[ticapnews]

68. Let them go. (eom)

[truthseeker1]

81. no kidding...let them go

We lived in SC for three years - couldn't wait to leave. Talk about a backwards state.

[BlueEyedSon]

21. Yup, here are the 1860 & current maps to prove it

[jmcgowanjm]

62. and N Indiana, Ohio would side w/ the Rust Belt n/t

[truthseeker1]

82. Wow!

The similarity is uncanny. Thanks for posting that.

[cubsfan forever]

115. Could you post the link?

I have already copied the pictures. Thanks!

Professor 2

[RaleighNCDUer]

128. Now that's disturbing. eom

[KamaAina]

131. Note that Hawai'i banned slavery in 1853

when it was still an independent monarchy. (It is now the blue state hovering in midair about three inches to the left of your monitor. :-) )

No "Unpleasantries Between the Islands" :-) required.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

50. Thank you for reading something into my post

that I never stated or even implied. FWIW I believe that slavery in the South would have ended on its own even without the Civil War, due to the fact that it would have eventually lost its economic viability. There also would have been slave revolts, and continuing assistance from Northern abolitionists. This probably would have been a healthier way for it to end anyway, possibly not engendering the toxic hatred that has poisoned the region, and our entire country ever since.

Just to re-iterate, slavery is not A-OK with me.

[jacksonian]

56. you have forgotten why the Civil War started

Issues where one thing, that is the background. You are right a more long term solution would have been better.

But it started when a state formed an army, bombarded and captured a US military post. IWar was not a policy decision to free slaves.

[Crunchy Frog]

66. I know that.

I was responding to a post that has been deleted that accused me of saying that slavery was A-OK because I thought we should have jettisoned the South when we had the chance.

I don't know much Civil War history, but if we were attacked, we should have struck back, and soundly defeated the enemy, but letting them be part of our country would be about as insane as making Iraq and Afghanistan new states with full voting rights. (Just to make things clear, I am not suggesting that Iraq attacked us or that the invasion is justified, but we have invaded and occupied them and they do hate us, and giving them citizenship in this country with voting rights would be a disaster.)

We should have defeated them, occupied them, disarmed them, maybe even forced them to end slavery, taken steps to ensure that they never endangered our security again, but we should not have allowed them back into our Union. Again, biggest mistake in this country's history.

[jacksonian]

72. let's not rehash the civil war

but I do have to say, that's just not history. The South, for the most part, wanted back in the Union afterwards, the whole war from the North's official point of view was to preserve the Union, it really couldn't have happened that way.

Now the reconstruction that came after - completely different story. That's really what we are fighting today when we say we're fighting the civil war, the injustices of the military occupation that came afterwards.

The Republicans got greedy and fucked it up bad. Where have I heard that one before?

[RaleighNCDUer]

130. Actually that is pretty much what we did --

Reconstruction poisoned the south against the north much more than the acutal war did, and it was done by disenfranchising anyone who had been an officer in the confederate army. they could petition, on an individual basis, for restoration of their rights, and the response was spotty. Much of the educated officer corp emmigrated to the territories leaving the south in the hands of the uneducated and the well-hated carpetbaggers.

Lincoln's original plan was quite the opposite, with full citizenship to be restored to the rebels in a general amnesty and massive investment in the southern states' infrastructure, which had been destroyed by the war while the north was relatively untouched. When Lincoln was killed the hardliners won, and today's south is the result.

Vengance and harsh dealing united the south more than the war actually did.

We were sore winners then, just as * is now.

[sweetladybug]

36. You're right crunchyfrog and I live in TN. I'm thinking of moving to

a blue america state

[shrike]

51. I agree

We should have let the South go. They've been more trouble than they're worth.

[Jawja]

58. As a Southerner,

I am not offended, as I agree.

We are once again, 2 nations.

[jmcgowanjm]

61. Why think you're offending Southerners

AAMOF, IMHO, we're moving to local.

The 9 Regions of North America
Capitals:
SanFrancisco
LA
Denver
KC
Detroit
Atlanta
Miami
Boston/NYC
Toronto

[amandabeech]

90. Is this from a book of the same title?

If so, have you read it and do you recommend it?

As a former Midwesterner, I'd substitute Chicago for KC and Detroit. It bridges the gap between the two of them, geographically and culturally.

[jmcgowanjm]

110. Beautiful, Thanx amandabeech for making me look @ it

The Nine Nations of North America
by Joel Garraeu

Combine this w/ Jane Jacobs. Cities and
the Wealth of Nations

Someone else has referred to Jane Jacobs on this
thread.

The reasoning for KC, off the top of my head,
is the same for Boston.

NYC is a- refuse to act the way resources/location
would indicate- place. A citystate
BTW - I made a mistake in posting Toronto
instead of Quebec City-the nation of Quebec

So, to quote, there are sharp differences in history,
attitudes toward the land, prejudices, economics,
and futures among these nations, & it's how these
differences come together
that defines their boundaries.

Ex.-Chicago is a megalopolis, having more in common
w/ The Foundry (The edge of the Great Lakes,
thru UPMichigan, strait over to Buffalo and down to
basically Mystic CN., then from DC over to Indianapolis
a bordertown up to Chicago.

[jmcgowanjm]

112. BTW-KC is The Breadbasket, w/ one ideaology

I live in a border town-Fayetteville-Dixie w/
Springdale -Breadbasket, side by side.

Fayetteville could be Oxford, MS or Auburn AL.
Springdale, Sioux Falls SD or Ft Dodge IA.

[saigon68]

25. Like as in Slave Auctions??

The NeoCon capitalists already have 2 of these people Rice and Colon Bowel. They are "House Servants" not field hands.

[cubsfan forever]

118. How very un-PC

and how VERY TRUE!The neo-cons are all about appearance versus substance, tokenism versus participation, and lies over truth ALL THE TIME.

Professor 2

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. Unless, of course...

The economy tanks.

How do you own something you cannot afford?

[TahitiNut]

34. The Great Depression was a period of wealth concentration

Think "Going Out of Business Sale" ... the wealthy bought up more of Amerika then than at any time in history

[Jim Warren]

59. ruthless and predatory

true, so very true.

their adage was 'economic depression is when wealth is returned to it's rightful owners'.

[hunter]

79. 'economic depression is when wealth is returned to it's rightful owners'

I suspect this time around Mother Nature is going to turn out to be the "rightful owner." She has lost her capacity to support the naked apes. We have spent our inheritance. We will learn to live within our means, or we will perish.

[jmcgowanjm]

63. Forget the vote-Every $ is always counted

Get out of debt.
* Spend your money and time on things that give you energy
and provide you with useful information.
* Stop spending a penny with major banks, news media
and corporations that feed you lies and leave you
exhausted.
* Learn how money works and use it like a
weapon.


It is already becoming clear that as Peak Oil becomes a
stark reality, survival will become a place-based,
local phenomenon.
Local economies.

November 3-Start of WWIV

Not w/ military, but w/ money

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110504_snap_out.shtml

http://rense.com/general59/amsun.htm

[truthseeker1]

87. I think the bankers are salivating over the inevitable foreclosures

to come in the future as homeowners who really couldn't afford to enter the housing market were lured in by the loan sharks and their too-good-to-refuse 0% down and low low VARIABLE rates.

[serryjw]

95. Thank you for understand

Bushit is correct homeownership is up.....BUT we also have the largest foreclosure rate in history. It is TOO esy to GET INTO a home. People are living on the edge and a job lose would also mean a home lose.
I have owned 2 condo's. I live in DT DEnver and it would cost 3X as much to live in a 1 bedroom condo as it does my apt. Yes, I would get a write off but you still have to be able to spend 3X as much.

Question......How can people save and invest ..IF THEY CAN'T PAY THEIR LIVING EXPENCES? What % of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and never get ahead. My health is so fragile I can't afford to make any money. I now qualify on a sliding scale for county hospital where most of my bills are covered. If I doubled my income(which I could do!) I would have to pay $10K a year in medical bills....How can I do this?

Saving? You got to be kidding. I could easily pay an additional $1000 this year for dental which I need. I spend $100 monthly on vitamins and over-the counter meds for athritus

I have not been on a vacation in 20 years!....and no, I don't own a car!I live on $700 monthly including food!!

[trogdor]

113. Houses are like cars when it comes to salesmen.

They are both sold on commission, so the goal is to get the mark...er...customer into the largest one he or she can possibly convince the bank the customer can afford, reality be damned. Even if the customer defaults a year down the road, the salesman still gets a commission.

[rooboy]

3. "We will all become capitalist investors."

And what about the "capitalist investors" who make bad investments? How does a 25 year old with Downs' Syndrome become a capitalist investor, or maybe a battered wife who just escaped her violent husband with 3 kids in tow and no money?

Fuckwit.

[Delphinus]

27. rooboy, you should know

by now that those kinds of people simply don't count to tptb. If you're not white, christian, male or a female that isn't a stepford wife, give it up. You're screwed!

[jmcgowanjm]

67. "The enemy has got a face. He's called Satan.He's in Fallujah

and we're going to destroy him," Said Colonel Gary Brandl as Bush Ordered Fallujah attacked.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

Hey, you Fundies, look what's comin'

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-chait5nov05,0,6348177.column

[The Zanti Regent]

Bush says the CHURCHES will take care of the poor

Who needs government when you have JEE ZUSS?

[PurityOfEssence]

76. All social programs will be god-encumbered

People are wicked. Only god is good. It will be driven home on a daily basis: joy, happiness, warmth, shelter and survival itself is absolutely dependent upon the grace of the Witchy Man.

[FloridaPat]

132. Read Woody Gutherie's autobiography to see how much help

you get from the churches when you're down on your luck - 0.

[rooboy]

4. Ownership Society = Sell govt assets to the people who already own them.

n/t

[whirlygigspin]

5. I'm so old I remember when ownership society meant master & slave

n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

14. Ownership Society, like the sort that formed in Russia

after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

[DELUSIONAL]

6. Well now I understand the damned voting machine that

counted backward -- that was a damned time machine -- and we are ALL in the time machine -- when it stops we will be back in the early 1800s and slavery will be legal again.

[VivaKerry]

20. LMAO, best explanation yet. n/t

*

[0rganism]

7. Recipe for a new Gilded Age of company towns and child labor

Freedom is on the march!

It's Morning in America!

[saigon68]

26. Awesome PHOTO

It sums it all up---except the reality is if you change her skin colour and dress her in a sarong-- you have the reality of Bangladesh. the place where Walmart buys shirts for 46 cents a piece to sell across amerika

[Trillo]

89. I'm not certain the problem is only "over there."

Minimum wage in the U.S. is very stark relative to what's necessary to survive.

[Art_from_Ark]

29. One of the famous Hine photographs of child workers

Georgia, ca. 1908 if I'm not mistaken. No doubt the repukes would love to go back to those days

[saigon68]

38. THERE ARE SOME WHO WOULD GO BACK EVEN FARTHER

When the slave ship docked, the slaves would be taken off the ship and placed in a pen. There they would be washed and their skin covered with grease, or sometimes tar, to make them look more healthy. This was done so that they would fetch as much money as possible. They would also be branded with a hot iron to identify them as slaves.

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Slave_Trade/slave_auction.htm

The 'Grab and Go' Auction
All people who wanted to buy a slave on the day of the auction would pay the trader an agreed amount of money. The trader would then give them a ticket for each slave that they had bought. At the sound of a drum roll, the door to the slave pen would be opened and the buyers would rush in and grab the slave or slaves that they wanted. The buyers then checked their slaves out by returning their ticket or tickets to the slave trader.

[kittykitty]

73. And maybe we'll end up as those in the Jacob Riis photos of the 1880s

"How the Other Half Lives". Photos of the poor in the tenements of N.Y.
Beautiful book of photographs.

[Art_from_Ark]

105. The robber barons of the new Gilded Age would love to make it

"How the Other 90% Lives"

[bvar22]

78. Heartwrenching Pics.

This is the end product of privatization and deregulation.
Unrestrained Capitalism is a FAILED Economic System!

The photographer is Lewis W. Hine, 1908 - 1912.



http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor/

I'm going to post a few more later in this thread.

[Azure]

8. Somehow I don't think this is going to include the poor...

Unless of course he means "ownership society" in the sense that the poor will be owned by their employers.

[Rene]

39. "ownership society" is a code word for a "Vassal Economy"

just like bush's reference to 'dred scott' was a code word for overturning roe

[radfringe]

9. sounds good -- but

who will OWN SOCIETY?

not us peons... http://www.opensecrets.org/

2004 ELECTION OUTCOME:http://www.opensecrets.org/pressreleases/04results.asp
MONEY WINS

---snip---

In the race for the White House, President Bush spent a total of $306.3 million in private and government funds from January 2003. Sen. John Kerry, who faced a tough battle for the Democratic nomination, spent $241.7 million. These figures do not include spending by the political parties or advocacy groups on the presidential election.

------------------------

bush*-contributions by sector
http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/sector.asp?id=N00008072&cycle=2004

?v=4604487;5149980;8279033;770273;4428948;31887693

[flordehinojos]

10. i believe bush is not only delusional. i believe bush is insane!

he wants to make everyone get onboard a fast track train that many of us prefer not to get on. perhaps because he has been a failure at so many of his misadventures he wants to see just how many of us might fail in our investments (since not all of us have the gift or the art of knowing how to make sound, good investments ... and frankly, under bush even those investments which may seem to be sound now may not actually be so for very much longer.

The man had to one-up his father. he has to one-up the rest of the country, he may even think that he has to one-up Jesus Christ himself!

i cannot take boooooooosh the gooooooooon boooooooooy and quite frankly, i think the country can't either.

[KansDem]

125. I'm thinking about having a bumper sticker printed...

...i believe bush is insane!

...that reads, "Don't blame me, I voted for the sane one"

[Journeyman]

11. I remember when we were all stakeholders in the American democracy. . .

and it was infinitely superior and far more rewarding than some bogus stakehold in the economy.

[MSgt213]

12. Ownership society code for Corporations own everything to include your

identity.

[cornermouse]

15. Translation: Pay as you go from the moment you're born.

No more free public education, no more free public usage of streets, no more free public.

[teryang]

16. We're already living in an "ownership" society

It's dog eat dog.

Think about the medical delivery system. You get medical insurance, if you employed, if you're lucky. But then if you get seriously ill, you lose your job, and your health insurance. Laws like COBRA are ridiculous because they are so expensive you can't pay for them. If you own or work in a small business that is lucky enough to get coverage, it is withdrawn when the insurer finds out there is a liability in someone's family. So then you have to liquidate virtually every asset you own to survive and pay medical bills. The end result is that if you are lucky enough to overcome your medical challenge, you are homeless. I know formerly prosperous, hard working people who have experienced this.

Most of the people in this country are living in system equivalent to tenant farming in old south. They are merely working to pay their bills and debts they have already acquired. They envisage getting off the hamster wheel one day but as they get older they realize it's an illusion. This is why the media is full of entertainment and news coverage about wealthy celebrities and sports figures, to disguise the true nature of our society. If any mishap comes along, like illness, injury, unemployment, fire or natural disaster, the typical hard working American is destroyed financially and can't recover. The misguided attitude of republicans toward this, who are so blind they can't imagine anything like this happening to them, "so what! they must have made immoral or bad decisions or they wouldn't be so poor." Illness, injury, unemployment, recesssions, and war, don't happen to republicans. They happen to someone else. They even want to do away with bankruptcy.

If you have a legal problem and don't have money, forget it, you're screwed. The court system is also for the rich only. Republican so called tort reform is guaranteed to close off access to the courts completely, except for the wealthy and corporations. Of course, middle and lower class republicans can't ever envisage a situation when they might need the courts or a trial lawyer to redress an injury or defend themselves against an unjust charge. They think the insurance companies and giant corporations will take care of them. Guess again! When they do need the courts, there is no resolution for them because they are not wealthy. Then they blame the trial lawyers rather than themselves for the legislators and representatives they allowed to be elected, who only serve the interests of the giant corporations. For a brief moment after three hurricanes, I enjoyed watching a rare sight. A couple of aggressive journalists from the old school were skewering JebFRAUD Bush and one legislator for the huge deductibles for EACH hurricane the state provided for their insurance industry friends. Chimp had to hand out hundreds of millions of dollars in mostly illegal FEMA handouts to cover for their insurance industry favoritism. The people seriously damaged by this are still moved in with their relatives or living in flop houses on skid row while their homes get repossessed.

[opineoaks]

35. Will be same as the "Big Pharm" support bill

This will be done in the same fine fashion as the drug benefit was, mainly to maximize benefits for large corporations. So now not only will the big pharmaceuticals be delighted, so will our friends on Wall Street.

A friend in need is a great business opportunity.

[surfermaw]

107. You win the debate

When Bush says owenership society, he is saying you are on your own, the government isn't going to help you no matter what.Safetynets all gone

[VivaKerry]

17. I wonder who will OWN me?

Cause I pity the poor master, er, uh OWNER, cause I can be a real bitch! LOL

[xchrom]

22. "We will all become capitalist investors."

code for more debt for consumer happy americans.

[Tanuki]

28. I'd rather die

My grandfather was a child laborer in a coal mine in Appalachia, and I would cut my throat before I would join the ranks of the "capitalist investors," because I guarantee that we are only one generation away from child labor again if this takes hold. What can we do to stop this evil? Does anyone have concrete suggestions about what a person can do? Like everyone else here, I'm still really sad and discouraged about the election, but I feel it's time to get back into the trenches.

[jmcgowanjm]

71. Revolutions start not when pols fail to keep promises

but when they start taking things away.

Fave saying of my Granddaddy and Dad

Another fave saying of my Forefathers;

80% are debtors
20% are creditors

Always have been, always will be.

&BTW, this was way before I'd heard of the 80/20
rule.

Get out of debt, now.

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110504_snap_out.shtml

[rodeodance]

30. tends toward the individual-

The ownership society in Bushs vision is one is which the individual has 'choice'---choice to own--for example, to choice to drive a big van.
It steers away from the "collective" value of society. in other words individualism trumps the 'common' good".
There was an article within the last week in "In These Times" website.

[Trillo]

91. That's the "sale".

For example, the WH wants states to own your medical records. It was on the WH website, it may still be, an addendum to the "mental health" proposal.

The state as a government is a collective, not an individual.

As in many "sales", the propaganda offered doesn't match up to what they're really doing when the fine print is examined.

[NashVegas]

94. And Thereby Become Complicit

In all the worst abuses that come with corporate capitalism.

We will condone the worst shit imaginable in the name of the allmighty dollar.

[Skittles]

23. beware of the republican use of the words ownership and privatization

they translate in to F***ING OVER THE COMMON FOLK

[Art_from_Ark]

31. You can say that again

[DBoon]

52. Ask almost anyone from the former Soviet Union

Where the average lifespan has been dropping since "privitization"

[paulk]

24. "We will all become capitalist investors."

I was watching Grover Norquist parrot this new Repuke talking point on "Now" the other day. "We want everyone to be able to invest in the stock market."

Hey, Fucktard, I actually had some money in the stock market back when Bill Clinton was president. That's all gone now.

[leftchick]

32. Norquist is one of the scariest people EVER !

and he has way too much influence over this countries policies. Wake the fuck up ameriKa!

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_402.html


~snip~

Norquist calls it the "Leave-Us-Alone Coalition," a grouping of gun owners, the Christian right, homeschoolers, libertarians, and business leaders that he has almost single-handedly managed to unite. The common vision: an America in which the rich will be taxed at the same rates as the poor, where capital is freed from government constraints, where government services are turned over to the free market, where the minimum wage is repealed, unions are made irrelevant, and law-abiding citizens can pack handguns in every state and town. "My ideal citizen is the self-employed, homeschooling, IRA-owning guy with a concealed-carry permit," says Norquist. "Because that person doesn't need the goddamn government for anything."

Few in American politics are as blunt about their plans. "If the American people really want to know what George W. Bush is up to, the best place to look is the candor of Grover Norquist," says Ralph G. Neas, president of People for the American Way. Norquist is not above equating tax collection with a street mugging, or suggesting that arguments for higher taxes on rich people echo the ones Nazis used to justify their targeting of Jews. "Bipartisanship is another name for date rape," he told a reporter in May, borrowing a phrase from former House Majority Leader Dick Armey. He likes to say he wants to shrink the size of government in half over the next 25 years "to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."



He is vile... :puke:

[paulk]

43. Grover Norquist makes me very angry

he makes me think bad thoughts....

thoughts that have to do with drowning...
and bathtubs...
and Grover Norquist...

:grr:

[sleepyhead]

49. Suuuuure.

"My ideal citizen is the self-employed, homeschooling, IRA-owning guy with a concealed-carry permit," says Norquist. "Because that person doesn't need the goddamn government for anything."

Uh huh. That person doesn't walk on public streets, delivers his/her own mail, stays out of public parks and libraries, has a research lab in his/her basement to test all the medications the family takes (as well as testing the food and water they eat and drink}, and doesn't care if the guy next door wants to store nuclear waste in his backyard, or if his/her daughter or slightly-darker skinned son is passed over for job after (low-paying) job. Yep.

[saigon68]

53. Very enlightening

Very scary

[teryang]

42. Will everyone be stupid enough to "invest?"

Yeah, folks let's invest in the stock market before it collapses.

And while we're at it, let's take on a huge adjustable rate mortgage. It'll be just like feudalism, to make those payments for next few decades while property taxes and insurance rates are going through the roof.

While I'm at I think I'll borrow a few tens of thousands more to get a new 8mpg SUV before gas prices get really high.

[paulk]

47. Everything these assholes do is always self serving

Political power is used not for the good of the country, but for the benefit of the "investment class". And what a joke to tell the serfs they can buy in too.

Well, fool me once, etc., etc.

This serf won't get fooled again.

Or something like that....

[54anickel]

45. Yep, they need and want lots of $ flowing on Wall St. Add this to the

30% tax break multinationals are getting next year to repatriate their profits currently held overseas. The markets will soar with that money coming home as profits are booked. That's setting the bait.

We will all be stakeholders in the corporations that basically run the country now. They are betting on the nature of greed to get the population on-board to support nearly anything that supports profits.

Welcome to the new age of Corporatocracy, the military-industrial complex and the bible-thumping theocracy all rolled into one.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Corporatocracy

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Military-industrial_complex

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/ConstitutionRestorationAct.htm

[rman]

116. yeah it's just that some have a Billion times more capital then others,

guess who will own everything in the end?

[TahitiNut]

37. "ownership society" = Plantation Economics

The wealth created by labor does NOT belong to laborers any more!

[teryang]

40. Nice charts!

From my post above:

"Most of the people in this country are living in a system equivalent to tenant farming in old south. They are merely working to pay their bills and debts they have already acquired. They envisage getting off the hamster wheel one day but as they get older they realize it's an illusion."

[saigon68]

41. PLANTATION ECONOMICS

[TheFarseer]

48. Taxes are as low as they have ever been

but they are still crushing business? It's not taxes. It's CEOs taking too much of the money home. It's healthcare. It's lawsuits - probably in that order. The tax rate was up around 50% in the 50s and they did good business then - better business than now for sure. Now it's around 20% and it's crushing business? The rhetoric doesn't match the facts.

[TahitiNut]

60. Be sure to note that CEO salaries are included in "Employee Compensation"

It should be obvious, then, that the compensation for labor is inflated by those inflated salaries. Thus, the situation is even worse than the statistics portray.

This is but one of the reasons that I believe Executive Compensation should receive separate accountability - as 'employees' of the owners rather than of the corporation (i.e. the 'owned'). Their compensation should be post-tax (posted as an expense to equity holders) and be aggregated with owner-operated income. (They are, in effect, agents of the owners.)

[Donkeyboy75]

93. Yeah, but it's not fair to compare the two.

Corporate taxes were much higher back then because the government could afford to tax that much. They didn't have to worry about competition. Now, with negligible transportation costs, outsourcing occurs to countries with tax rates that are low enough to make a difference. A 50% corporate tax rate would not compete with the 12.5% rate in Ireland, or the rates in the high teens in much of Central and Eastern Europe.

I don't even think that CEOs are the problem (at least not their salaries...as ridiculous as they are). It's the complete lack of oversight on corporate accounting practices that allow for overinflated profit statements.

[TahitiNut]

101. Well, whether it's 'fair' or not is as subjective as objective.

Some of the reasons corporations were more highly taxed "back then" also included

• differing accounting for foreign vs. domestic revenues and expenses
• the post-ww2 'fact of industrial life' that the U.S. had the only intact industrial base, one which had been vastly expanded at taxpayer (and foreign) expense for war materials
• a narrower capitalization and far greater emphasis on dividends than equity inflation
• a global prevalence of domestic equity participation minimums (e.g. minimum of 51%-75% domestic ownership was common in countries like Spain and Argentina)
• a far greater intolerance for "war profiteering" (something now ignored)
• a far greater consideration for the compensation of labor (aided by healthier labor unions)

As one who spent many years performing Internal Audit and Operational Analysis, I can confidently say that there's not a "complete lack of oversight on corporate accounting practices" even though drastically weakened over the last 50 years (and especially the last 20).

Motives for global corporations locating their industrial and manufacturing operations in other, particularly "third world," countries include ...

• more "forgiving" environmental laws, lowering the costs of pollution cleanup/prevention but increasing the pollution (an 'externalized cost' to the host country's and the planet's occupants,
• more "forgiving" OSHA-like constraints, allowing for unsafer and unhealthier (and therefore cheaper to the company, not the people) working conditions, shifting the 'cost' to the workers and the communities,
• "kickbacks" to corporate executives and cronies through a wide variety of schemes ignored (or 'subsidized') in the host country
• yes, taxes .. but not just simply on profits but including property, inventories, payroll, VAT, and other 'gamable' items, and
• labor compensation, not only direct but in benefits as well.

Once upon a time, analysis (and execution) of the ways in which these differing financial/regulatory environments could be gamed would've consuemd so much labor time and taken too long to track and manage that it would've been unreasonably expensive and time-consuming. Computers changed that. In addition, it has helped enormously to have an "influence" on the political processes in those countries.

[Robert Oak]

80. slave economy why we're called noslaves.com

reports other countries will not support the dollar coming in today.

I feel it's worse than I imagined. I went and read some Grover Norquist
papers. He has everyone, Repukes and Neocons coming on board onto
his ideas.

Well, well...

he wants to outsource the government, privatize education completely.

What I think at this point is these people want to destroy the US as a nation state, period.

I think they want private militaries, which can be bought and sold
per the bidding of a group of multinational corporations.

the more I read, the more I think this is their true goal and it is the ultimate outcome of a "capitalist" society...

zero government to zero be involved with their "free market" agenda.

If this post sounds paranoid, please go read the detailed papers of these people and the neocon philosophy of "might makes right".

the more I read, the more I am in horror personally. It's completely sociopathic dogma.

[rman]

120. hey, slave labor is very good for the economy

it's just that there are many things that are good for the economy that are bad for people. But if you don't point that out, people will fall for the "good for the economy" line.

[Mike03]

44. These seem to be code words

for "pay as you go." And in Bush's sick and cold new world those who can't pay won't go. It's not really the tax system they want to reform, but the New Deal. I think Paul Krugman has it right, that this administration wants to make permanent the tax provisions that were set to expire so that they have an excuse to destroy social programs. That's some compassion, huh?

The irony is that so much current middle class ownership is an illusion because people have borrowed so heavily. It's hard to imagine what could happen with respect to the credit and real estate bubbles that have grown out of control over the past four years. I can't envision a happy ending.

[hatrack]

100. Oh, I don't find it hard at all to imagine what will happen to the bubbles

You mentioned RE and credit - there's only one way for them to go - "Pop!"

[TroubleMan]

46. "Ownership Society?" ... Mussolini would be proud.

That's the same thing he did in Italy.

[progressivebydesign]

64. Every day I wake up and think we're closer to a Mussolini regime..

After this election, we're screwed.

[Pallas180]

102. Not closer. NOt Mussolini. We're in a Hitler regime. Did you

read about his new Chief of Women's Health who doesn't believe in birth control pills, but does believe in sterilization...?

That is sterilization for those who take Bush's psych tests and then
will be medicated.

[Beetwasher]

54. BOW DOWN TO YOUR NEW REPUBLICAN OVERLORDS!!!

"ownership Society"=Feudalism

Each one of us will be indentured servants to some corporate master.

How bad can serfdom be? We're about to find out.

[underpants]

55. "Loyal to the Bank of America...until we improve your business accumen"

-REM

Exhuming McCarthy
You’re beautiful more beautiful than me
You’re honorable more honorable than me
Loyal to the Bank of America


It’s a sign of the times
It’s a sign of the times


You’re sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen.
Sharpening stones, walking on coals,
To improve your business acumen.


Vested interest united ties, landed gentry rationalize
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America


It’s a sign of the times
It’s a sign of the times

You’re sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen.
Sharpening stones, walking on coals,
To improve your business acumen.


Enemy sighted, enemy met, I’m addressing the realpolitik
Look who bought the myth, by jingo, buy America


"Let us not assassinate this man further Senator,
You’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir?
At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"


You’re sharpening stones, walking on coals
To improve your business acumen.
Sharpening stones, walking on coals,
To improve your business acumen.


Enemy sighted, enemy met, I’m addressing the realpolitik
You’ve seen start and you’ve seen quit
(I’m addressing the table of content)
I always thought of you as quick
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)
Exhuming McCarthy
(Meet me at the book burning)

[JusticeForAll]

57. Ahhh the "Loanership" Society

Held up on the backs of the indebted nation.

Stupid fucks.

I am coining this word today. Please send me royalties, I'm thousands in debt thank you Mr. *

[jobycom]

65. Last ownership society I remember was called Feudalism!

And it propelled the world into the Dark Ages

Hang on folks, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

[democracy eh]

69. you gotta love historical cycles

you may be interested in:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400062322/qid=1099845879/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1719201-7490561?v=glance&s=books

Dark Age Ahead
by JANE JACOBS

Book Description
Visionary thinker Jane Jacobs uses her authoritative work on urban life and economies to show us how we can protect and strengthen our culture and communities.

In Dark Age Ahead, Jane Jacobs identifies five pillars of our culture that we depend on but which are in serious decline: community and family; higher education; the effective practice of science; taxation and government; and self-policing by learned professions. The decay of these pillars, Jacobs contends, is behind such ills as environmental crisis, racism and the growing gulf between rich and poor; their continued degradation could lead us into a new Dark Age, a period of cultural collapse in which all that keeps a society alive and vibrant is forgotten.

But this is a hopeful book as well as a warning. Jacobs draws on her vast frame of reference -- from fifteenth-century Chinese shipbuilding to zoning regulations in Brampton, Ontario -- and in highly readable, invigorating prose offers proposals that could arrest the cycles of decay and turn them into beneficent ones. Wise, worldly, full of real-life examples and accessible concepts, this book is an essential read for perilous times

[democracy eh]

70. hmmm Club for Growth, where have I heard that, oh yeah...

were they not the ones running the anti-Dean, Volvo driving, latte drinking, New York Times reading, New England Liberal ads in Iowa during the primaries? I do believe so...

[leesa]

74. Propping up Wall Street so they can continue to loot our treasury

Republicans are so short-sighted. I guess they need to lose more and more jobs and small/large corporations. What dolts!

[Redleg]

75. Where the rich own more and more and the rest of us don't.

That's the society I want to be part of. And the Club for Growth is full of shit- we already have a stake in our country whether we own stock or not. Fuck you.

[MsMagnificent]

77. I may be wrong but...

...seems to me these privitization issues only add one --but very important-- variable to the long-established equation(s)

that the funds can *disappear*

Stock market sux, oh my! Your 50,000 is only worth 10,000 now.
Too bad for you-ooo.

The way it is now, the money HAD to be accounted for. There are very clear, definite and finite parameters to the money and where is is. When you enter such areas as the stock market... well, I need not expound on that.

Or am I missing any (broad - pls lets not nitpick at this point ;) ideas here?

[bvar22]

83. More pics.

Earlier in this thread, Organism posted a heart wrenching picture. Here are some more.

This is the end product of privatization and deregulation.
Unrestrained Capitalism is a FAILED Economic System!

Fond Memories from the First Ownership Society
















The photographer is Lewis W. Hine, 1908 - 1912.
Check out this web site for more:

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor /


NOTE: It wasn't the torture at AbuGharib that caused problems for the bush* administration.
It was the pictures of the torture!

[saigon68]

121. Thank You the Stark Reality is very enlightening

Once a class of individuals hates a group as an "under" class anything is possible.

Even Genocide. As in ( Chimp to Marines -- "Kill the Rag-Heads)

[Tanuki]

129. Eloquent pictures

Thank you, bvar22. These pictures brought tears to my eyes. This hits so much closer to home than most Americans imagine. Not only could it happen here again, but right now someone else's children in third world countries are being exploited in exactly the same way. That is our fight, too!

[study_war_no_more]

84. who gonna own us now?

ah hopes de new massa lets us have xmas.

[Triana]

85. Oh yea. They'll Own us...Corprats own the peasants...

...haven't we been through slavery once already? Duh.

[Blue_State_Elitist]

86. Fuck these Nazis

Ownership society=Gilded Age

[fortyfeetunder]

88. You know this crap will collapse like a pricked balloon

Think about it

If 51% of the nation was stupid enough to keep a failed President with one of the worst economic policies of all time, how in the hell can they be trusted to manage their own money?

[tom_paine]

99. 51% didn't. It was probably more like 46-47%

Exit Polls were routinely used during the Last Days of the Old Republic when we were spreading democracy to the now so very samll and young (Western Europe is now the Senior Leadership of a VERY shrunken Free World, all else is BushPutinist Enclave or other form of Tyranny), to crosscheck electoral validity.

But of course, that was when Free America still existed...

[Fovea]

92. We will all become capitalist investors.

Has anyone in the Republican Party ever heard the name 'Ponzi' before?
Because the idea that an economy will be comprised of a society of investors is a planned economic collapse. With a devil take the 90% of the hindmost attitude like this, I have to assume that there are no paleocons left.

[KT2000]

96. Lost 1/3+ of my IRA

my retirement ownership was a bust for me but the mutual fund companies made their fees and that is all that matters.

[Zorra]

97. General Strike and Boycott of all things republican. We American

"stakeholders" will drive a stake through the greedy black hearts of the fascist vampires.

[Piperay]

98. Hey repukes, Democrats own property too and

anyway this is not going to happen because Wall Street will never allow it, they want the money to go to them.

[Pallas180]

103. Some are suggesting draw all your money out of large banks and stocks

and change it into silver and gold coins....

bring bush's govt to his knees and the banks too.

No money, no interest on our money to them.

[Zorra]

106. I did that after Bu$h was selected in 2000. Crash them. Tomorrow.

No quarter. No surrender.

This is what they get for stealing elections.

[Logansquare]

104. "Corporations have been enthroned..."

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money powers preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me & the financial institutions at the rear, the latter is my greatest foe. Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed." -Abraham Lincoln, letter to William Elkins, Nov 21, 1864 (just after the passage of the debt causing National Bank Act ,


http://www.welfarestate.com/

[DeadManInc]

108. ownership

Hard to buy a house without fucking jobs.

[GettysbergII]

109. From the Yorica Report's "The Despoiling of America"

Dominionism’s Theocratic Views
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm

What would a “reconstructed” America look like under the Dominionists? K.L. Gentry, a Dominionist himself, suggests the following “elements of a theonomic approach to civic order,” which I strongly suggest should be compared to the Texas GOP platform of 2002, which reveals that we are not just talking about imaginary ideas but some things are already proposed on Republican agendas.<60> Dominionism’s concept of government according to Gentry is as follows:


“1. It obligates government to maintain just monetary policies ... fiat money, fractional reserve banking, and deficit spending.

“2. It provides a moral basis for elective government officials. ...

“3. It forbids undue, abusive taxation of the rich. ...

“4. It calls for the abolishing of the prison system and establishing a system of just restitution. ...

“5. A theonomic approach also forbids the release, pardoning, and paroling of murderers by requiring their execution. ...

“6. It forbids industrial pollution that destroys the value of property. ...

“7. It punishes malicious, frivolous malpractice suits. ...

“8. It forbids abortion rights. ... Abortion is not only a sin, but a crime, and, indeed, a capital crime.”<61>


The fourth item in Gentry’s list, “abolishing of the prison system and establishing a system of just restitution” has been worked on extensively by Dominionist Gary North, who holds a doctorate degree in Economics. North has written volumes of books, essays and articles, (many of which falsely predicted that the year 2000 computer problem would bring down modern civilization.) He is most famous among Dominionists for reconciling economic theory with Old Testament passages.

Gary North describes the ‘just restitution’ system of the bible, which happens to reinstitute slavery, like this:


“At the other end of the curve, the poor man who steals is eventually caught and sold into bondage under a successful person. His victim receives payment; he receives training; his buyer receives a stream of labor services. If the servant is successful and buys his way out of bondage, he re-enters society as a disciplined man, and presumably a self-disciplined man. He begins to accumulate wealth.”<62>

[Sparkly]

111. Who owns the national debt?

Does it bother Bushbots that other countries "own" more and more of America as a result of our borrowing money for that short-sighted tax cut?

[cubsfan forever]

114. Uh, Stephen Moore:

You mean a return to slavery, don't you? I have said all along that the ultimate goal of the RWers is to turn the clock back to 1850 not 1950.

Professor 2

[Bridget Burke]

117. The Christian Reconstructionists do condone slavery.

It was in the Bible, wasn't it?

I don't think all the "moral" voters realize just how extreme some of these guys are.

[cubsfan forever]

119. Good point! Thanks! n/t

Professor 2

[silvershadow]

122. you must be able to AFFORD to own something....

before you can own it. Who does think this is? Most people I know are barely keeping their heads above water already. And when this new "outsourcing is good" economy tanks, I predict another great depression.

[bunkerbuster1]

123. "'Ownership society' means you're on your own."

I believe that's how Kerry put it.

Guess that was too nuanced.

[natrat]

126. if they break it we

own it

[RaleighNCDUer]

127. In the twenties, we became a nation of capitalist investors --

and the speculation boom created the great depression as the average worker, instead of saving, invested what little excess capital they had in stocks. The crash came, they were mortgaged to the hilt, they had been buying on margin, and suddenly they had nothing.

We can do it again, without hardly trying!

[jmcgowanjm]

133. What's the Matter w/ Kansas?-Thomas Franks

The most informative 40 min in front of
a tv I've had in a long time.
on CSPAN.

A few things -
the fundy/values/blue collar crowd has nothing in common
w/ Rep/well educated city group.
Notice baitswitch from gays to SS/tax reform.
Franks thinks Ohio was fair and square.
OMG-Kerry wants to run again in 08,
and there won't be shakeup in DNC.
(meaning the DNC still doesn't get it)

All of this has to change or likeNCEvilDUer
says: "We can do it again, without hardly trying!"