French tanks surround home of Ivory Coast President

[Turley]

ABIDJAN, IVORY COAST - French tanks took up positions around the home of Laurent Gbagbo, raising fears Ivory Coast's president may be ousted from power after the West African country's army killed nine French peacekeepers.


http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/11/08/gbagbosurrounded041108.html

[NVMojo]

1. this is an ugly, ugly situation but I doubt Bush will want in it...

he would prefer the French fried.

[TheFarseer]

2. Yeah, the French are too cowardly to ever take military action

you know, except when they have some sort of reason to :eyes:

[foo_bar]

5. see also: Rwanda, Cambodia, Zaire, Vietnam

[Flagg]

6. and Algeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Tchad, Lebannon.

[Flagg]

7. We didn't want this situation.

Bagbo attacked and killed UN peacekeepers.

He's the bad guy here.

And French forces haven't killed anyone... yet.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Those UN peacekeepers are there...

...to protect the financial interests of French, US, and British, corporations in that country. Enough of the imperialism. France should go home and then no one will be shooting at them. See, that wasn't too complicated at all.

And by the way. There are no good guys when billions of dollars are at stake. This is business. Think about it.

Don

[Flagg]

9. If we leave, it's civil war and thousands of innocents murdered.

You may have noticed that the country has been split in 2 for 2 years.
Between rebels and Bagbo loyalists. A situation which France certainly did not create.



We're here by the will of the international community and have the backing of the African Union.
Oh yeah, and we're not commiting genocide too unlike other invaders.

We have 11 000 nationals (good people and families who doesn't deserve to be turned into mince meat pies by machete-waving mobs who btw wave also american flags bu the dozens) in the Ivorian capital and won't let them down.



We won't leave.

"There are no good guys when billions of dollars are at stake. This is business. Think about it."

Bagbo has people mudered (including the French journalist Jean Helene last year). We don't


"financial interests of French, US, and British, corporations in that country"

Welcome to the real world.

See, that wasn't too complicated at all.

[Turley]

12. Well I guess the question is

Whether near-total French domination of the economy (and natural resources) has anything to do with the fact that the locals are fighting one another to begin with (over the scraps?)

[Flagg]

13. Near-total French domination of the economy

Unfortunately for the French economy.

It's far from being the case.

Anyway, it's no reason for ordering the murder of French nationals, is it?

[NNN0LHI]

14. So keep them in line at gunpoint to prevent a civil war? Bullshit!

We had a civil war in this country. Over a million people died. Would you have preferred to have had another country interfere here and stop it...at the barrel of a gun? And then never leave? All the while they are helping themselves to our countries natural resources? And our citizens are forced to live in poverty as they hauled our stuff away? Is that what you would want?

You must be kidding? Did you ever hear of self determination? Its not something that is reserved for white folks.

Don

[jakpalmer]

15. They should leave and then what ?

Another Rwanda ?

Don't come blaming anybody after that happens.

Understand me, I'm not advocating neo-colonialism. There may be a problem with how the IC's economy benefits to each part of the population.

But the problem here is that the tension between the 2 parties are such that there is a need for a UN "buffer" force that effectively enforce separation between them until they can reach a political / peaceful agreement.

If the UN leaves now, you know they won't say "now that we're alone let's talk to each other and work out something peacefully".

[Flagg]

16. I agree with you. And we certainly don't wanna be there.

We may even leave in a few months if the situation keeps on deteriorating.

But when the massacre begins. Don't hold us responsible. Ok ?

And once the dust settles and evrything French has vanished from the country and the economic situation still hasn't improved because the country's ruled by a corrupt dictator, don't hold us responsible. OK ?



Ivory coast is btw the most prosperous country in sub-saharian Africa right now.

""All the while they are helping themselves to our countries natural resources? And our citizens are forced to live in poverty as they hauled our stuff away""

That is not even remotely the case and that is not what President Bagbo and his machete waving mobs are mad at anyway.
Otherwise the ethnic cleansing would have started decades ago.

They're mad because they think France has sided with the rebels and the rebels are mad at France because they think France has sided with Bagbo.Hence the relative mess .
( We have troubles from the rebels too).

[NNN0LHI]

17. It will be Frances fault. OK ?

France has had decades to accomplish an orderly, non-violent, transfer of power to the indigenous people of this country and leave.

Greed got to them.

Don

[Flagg]

18. Ivory coast has been independant since 1960.

And there has been zero violence up until now.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.


"Greed got to them"

Once again, thats not the problem here. It's a political problem here not an economic one.
France is a key economic partner and their departure from the country would be a catastrophe for the Ivorian economy. That's the last thing Babgo wants.



Bagbo murdered French peacekeepers.
It's an act of war against France.
Period.

France is probably going to internationalize the problem by getting the European and African UNion more invilved.

keep up the good work, though..

[NNN0LHI]

20. France Escalates Military Involvement in Ivory Coast - December 16, 2002

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A59488-2002Dec15?language=printer

ABIDJAN, Ivory Coast, Dec. 15 -- France today escalated its military involvement in Ivory Coast's three-month-old rebellion, sending an additional 150 troops with a tougher mandate to enforce a truce.

The troops, who will be followed by a second wave of soldiers this week, have orders to open fire if necessary, raising the prospect of combat with increasingly resentful rebels.

The paratroopers join more than 1,000 well-armed French troops who are manning checkpoints across Ivory Coast's central belt.

A French army spokesman said the mandate now included authorization for troops to fire on anyone who impedes their mission.

more

Independence? How does one experience independence while being occupied by soldiers from another country? Does that sound like independence to you? If we still had well-armed British soldiers manning checkpoints across America I doubt I would be celebrating on the 4th of July every year. What do you think?

Don

[Flagg]

21. 4000 French UN peacekeepers isn't an occupation force.

Let alone the 2000 African Union UN peacekeepers alongside them.

There are millions of inhabitants in Ivory Coast.

What would France gain in trying to re-colonize its former colonies?

It doesn't make sense.

Why are you grasping at straws ?

You don't care that Bagbo murdered 9 French UN peacekeepers ?

You agree with sending machete-waving mobs after French civilians in the streets of Abidjan ?


Don't you find it strange that the american-flag-waving mobs' "uprising" started 3 days after *'s reselection ?

Do you know that the cocoao Industry in Ivory Coast is 90% American-owned ?

[NNN0LHI]

22. What are you talking about? The UN mandate came AFTER France invaded!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2727365.stm

French and West African troops in Ivory Coast have won a mandate from the United Nations Security Council to use force in peacekeeping operations there.

The Security Council voted unanimously on Tuesday to back the troops' deployment with a review of the situation in six months' time. snip

In New York, the Security Council passed resolution 1464 giving "full support" to troops of the Economic Community of West African States (Ecowas) and France currently serving in Ivory Coast.

The troops were authorised to take any necessary steps to ensure their own security and freedom of movement and "the protection of civilians threatened with imminent violence".

more

You are the one grasping for straws. You speak if independence in 1960, yet French soldiers are in the country in 2002 with orders to shoot to kill if need be. Some independence.

Don

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. France did not invade

Gbagbo, whose forces attacked the French troops (and the American aid worker) wanted them there to police the ceasefire:

September 2002

- 19: Rebels rise up against President Laurent Gbagbo, seizing key cities in the north.

- 28: A defence agreement with former colonial ruler France is activated under which Paris pledges logistical support.

October

- 17: The main rebel group signs an accord in Bouake to end hostilities. Gbagbo accepts the deal and asks France to police it.

- 22: France sends troops to police a ceasefire.

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/6b2995e6e7a0b9d5c1256edf0037c224?OpenDocument

[NNN0LHI]

25. Is it OK if Junior invites the Chinese Red Army in here to keep the peace?

Junior wouldn't call it an invasion, but I sure would. And I can guarantee that there are some Ivorian citizens who feel as though they have been invaded when they are stopped at checkpoints manned by soldiers from another country. Its just human nature. I wouldn't feel free if there were foreign troops standing on my street corner asking people for their papers.

Don

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. If they were policing a ceasefire, yes

In fact I'd suggest that having a strong army, like the Red Army, would be the best choice to poilice an American ceasefire.

Remember that those killed, so far, have been the French.

[NNN0LHI]

27. People who are willing to sacrifice freedom in exchange for security...

...will receive neither

Don

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. Not sure what you're saying there

is it that all ceasefires are wrong - that wars should be fought until one side surrenders unconditionally - and the winner should then do what they want?

[NNN0LHI]

30. I will try to explain

Without the real threat of an unhappy populace going postal on the ruling government there would never be another election anywhere. Elections would be canceled if these power hungry politicians thought they could get away with it. Heck, even the Shiites darned near threw Saddam out in 1991. It was close. Think about had they suceeded? Where would we be today had that civil war gone the other way? Saddam be gone long time ago. (How can that be a bad thing?) We would probably have another country very similar to Iran. Then again maybe not? Who knows what would have happened had old man Bush given the Shiites just the little bit of air cover that he had promised to them back then?

Don

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. So all peacekeeping forces are wrong

even if both sides of a civil war agree to them? It's a rebel's duty to freedom to fight to the bitter end, even if it means a massive loss of life?

Wow, I never expected a longtime DUer to have that point of view. Does this also apply to wars between countries - it's better if everyone stays out of it, and no-one tries to broker a peace deal?

[Flagg]

24. OK, you win.The French are evil colonialists

bent on world domination and the domination of the black "man" in particular.

The French forces are only in Ivory Coast to insdiously take over Ivory Coast's natural resources whatever they may be.

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH roared Chirac in his Elyse's Palace office as he made plans to "invade" yet another sovereign African nation.

Happy now?

[jakpalmer]

11. Come on please

for once someone is trying to enforce a UN resolution.
What do you think would happen if the buffer zone wasn't there ?

There are clearly 2 opposing forces who are waiting for a UN withdrawal to fight each other.

I really disagree that the main motivation for all this is neo-colonialist greed.

[NNN0LHI]

3. Why don't the French pack up their shit and leave?

They will only be leaving behind billions of dollars worth of natural resources that French companies now control. Nestle and Hershey are not going to like this one bit.:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L08648545.htm

Ivory Coast conflict paralyses cocoa exports

ABIDJAN, Nov 8 (Reuters) - Leading cocoa exporters in Ivory Coast's main city Abidjan were closed on Monday as mob violence erupted after France destroyed most of the country's air force in retaliation for the killing of nine French peacekeepers.

"Nobody has come in today," said a security guard at the offices of one leading exporter. "There's nobody here. The building is empty and shut," said a guard at another top exporter in the port city.

France deployed troops on the streets of Abidjan on Sunday, took control of the airport and flew in hundreds of extra soldiers to contain the backlash of looting and rioting.

French helicopters evacuated French nationals and other foreigners from the rooftops of houses and hotels as youths wielding machetes and sticks attacked foreigners and foreign-owned businesses. snip

The London cocoa market surged to a three-month contract high on Monday as the violence in Ivory Coast, source of 45 percent of the world's cocoa, fuelled fears of supply disruption.

more

[Turley]

4. I think they control 2/3 of the economy

Or something in that region.

[Laughing Mirror]

19. France Telecom has a nice slice of the pie too

and the last time I looked in to this, that tasty morsel included not only for telephone service to the country but most of the expanding internet business as well.

[jmcgowanjm]

10. The collapse of nation states

Nothing shows this more than the Cote d'Ivoire.

Not the exception, the rule.

[metallic]

29. I'm amazed

I'm amazed by the number of people who are willing to give France a free ticket yet will attack the war in Iraq every chance they get. The stench of hypocracy is suffocating.

[Artemis Bunyon]

32. Come back when the French have killed 100,000 innocent civilians...

...and maybe you'll have a leg to stand on.

[metallic]

36. Lancet Study

And when you can cite a study that has actually tallied the number of civilians killed at 100,000 then you will too. Instead, all you have is a projection of 100,000 deaths with no way to verify it.

[democracyindanger]

34. I'm amazed

that somebody who can't even spell hypocrisy thinks they are in a position to judge it.

*sniff* I smell a...

[metallic]

37. Thanks

Thanks for the spelling correction but I don't see how it disqualifies my point of view. If you disagree, then explain your viewpoint.

[Rochambeau]

33. To me, but I may be wrong France has interest in peace in Ivory Coast

that's obvious. Why ? It's the very important question. For business for sure, for her influence in the region too - France always considered that zone as "HER" zone in a very neo-colonialist way, we cannot deny that, it even has a name : "Françafrique" in France. BUT, France also has true friendly relationships with Ivory-Coast, many french expats live there and far more Ivorians live in France so, the French and the french government to see IC turn into a new Rwanda or Liberia is a nightmare, for some "good" reasons and also for some purely economical reasons. It's no black or white here once again, it's a very complex situation based mixed feelings from both parts.
The links between the two countries are so important (we can blame that situation(françafrique) and I do but it's a fact now) that a french withdrawal would be the worse scenario for IC. This said I think it's a good opportunity anyway for our two countries to put the situation on a table and try a fresh start. The image of France is severely damaged there and many expats will certainly never return so when the situation will return to normal it will be the perfect opportunity to build up a new deal based on true Independence, respect and partnership. Anyway I would rate that situation to happen close to zero unfortunately.

[TheIdiot]

35. OK, so it's a FRIENDLY repression...

Now I can sleep in peace.