Saddam Scientists Said Justified Invasion

[peterh]

<http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-iraq-us-bolton,0,6603517.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines>

PARIS -- The U.S.-led invasion of Iraq was justified in part because Saddam Hussein retained scientists capable of building nuclear weapons, Washington's top arms control official said Thursday.

In an interview with The Associated Press, John Bolton, undersecretary of state for arms control, said that whether Saddam's regime actually possessed weapons of mass destruction "isn't really the issue."

"The issue I think has been the capability that Iraq sought to have ... WMD programs," Bolton said at the U.S. Embassy in Paris.

Bolton said that Saddam kept "a coterie" of scientists he was preserving for the day when he could build nuclear weapons unhindered by international constraints.



Sure John, anything you say….The physical stuff was never the issue…the physical stuff wasn’t what was stuffed down the throats in speech after speech prior to the war….sure John, it was always the intellectual capability of Iraqi scientists was the imminent threat to the world :eyes:

[devinsgram]

1. So where was the threat?

[trumad]

2. And here it comes

Kay will be coming soon....

[skip fox]

11. Kay's coming relatively empty handed in terms of WMDs!

If we would have found something, it would have been trumpeted to the high heavens already. A president who calls two flatbed labs for the production of helium WMDs, ain't going to hesitate announcing anything they find.

With all the prisoners talking their heads off (turning in others &c, via drugs, persuasion, etc.), if there were WMDs, we certainly would have found them.

My guess is that Lay is going to come up with a truck full of documents and will claim they prove an active program of weapons' development. Under investigation, we'll find most of the documents dated.

This lastest backpedalling convinces me of this even more.

[treepig]

16. my sources tell me kay's going to report saddam

was stockpiling large amounts of this dangerous chemical:

Despite the known dangers of DHMO, it continues to be used daily by industry and governments worldwide. Some of the well-known uses of DHMO are:



as an industrial solvent and coolant,
in nuclear power plants,
by the U.S. Navy in the propulsion systems of some older vessels,
by elite athletes to improve performance,
in the production of Styrofoam,
in biological and chemical weapons manufacture,
as a spray-on fire suppressant and retardant,
in abortion clinics,
as a major ingredient in many home-brewed bombs,
as a byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion in furnaces and air conditioning compressor operation,
in cult rituals,
by the Church of Scientology on their members and their members' families,
by both the KKK and the NAACP during rallies and marches,
by pedophiles and pornographers (for uses we'd rather not say here),
by the clientele at a number of homosexual bath houses in New York City and San Francisco,
historically, in Hitler's death camps in Nazi Germany, and in prisons in Turkey, Serbia, Croatia, Libya, Iraq and Iran,
in World War II prison camps in Japan, and in prisons in China, for various forms of torture,
by the Serbian military as authorized by Slobodan Milosevic in their recent ethnic cleansing campaign,
in animal research laboratories, and
in pesticide production and distribution.

source http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

come on people, open your eyes to the danger, bush had to act when he did!!

[bicentennial_baby]

18. LOL

very funny, science man. :P

I swear I hear this at least once every semester....

[WillyT]

33. I Just Sat In A Redwood Tub Of Hot, Bubbling, DHMO The Other Night !!!

So far, all the side effects are rather pleasant!

:evilgrin:

[peterh]

24. If today’s briefing at the DoD is any indication…you’re right

Q: Some of your colleagues, when they've been over and have come back and met with him, have said that there's a likelihood of something being found soon, a surprise. Did either of you get that sense from him.

Davis: I didn't. I think he's going about this, you know, in an organized fashion. I don't think you find this without some cooperation from the Iraqis. It's a big country.

Hoekstra: Sure. That's right.

Davis: We do have, of course, documentation -- interrupted conversations and stuff about how they were avoiding things being found and stuff. But until you find the corporate -- you know, the deal itself, I don't think anybody's going to be satisfied. And I think we need Iraqi cooperation; that takes some time.

Hoekstra: I think Dr. Kay is going about it very well, in that he's talking -- he's not raising expectations. He's saying that he's going about this in a very thorough way. He's not talking or speculating about what he may or may not find. The message that he's giving us is: "I'm going about this in a very professional way, and I will report what I find on the dates that I have told you that I will report. And I'm not going to create false expectations or false hopes or speculate as to what I may or may not find." He doesn't want to get into the expectations game, other than saying, "I will report what I find."

<http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030904-0644.html>

[skip fox]

38. Right on! Further rationale:

Nothing's for certain, but the 'logical reasons' the conservatives trot out to 'prove' the weapons exist or existed are
weak, whereas the practical logic of the current situation suggests (STRONGLY) that WMDs do not exist in Iraq and
did not exist in Iraq during America's build-up to the war in 2002.

Conservatives' "reasons" for the existence of WMDs:

1. We know Saddam had WMDs (circa early 1990s) and he never gave us proof of their destruction. No rational
person would subject his country to potential attack if the reason for the attack did not exist. (Note: these are the
same people who call Saddam a madman.) This argument is moderately compelling, but ignores many other reasons
Saddam would not want to prove that he had destroyed his WMDs like saving face (his prestige in standing up to the
US was extraordinarily important to him) or like not signalling potential enemies (like Iran) that he had only
conventional weapons with which to defend his country.



Practical reasons indicating the absence of WMDs:

1. He didn't use them when attacked, even when his back was against the wall. This is a strong argument and is only
countered with: "He mistakenly hid the WMDs in such a way they were not quickly accessible," or "He was worried
about what the US would do in retaliation." Perhaps. But on the face of it, this reason for the non-existence of the
WMDs is AT LEAST as compelling as the only reason for their existence.

2. We captured damned near the entire deck of cards and nobody has yet pointed out the whereabouts of current
WMDs (the closest we came was a scientist who pointed to his backyard with decade's old equipment beneath a
rosebush). As desperate as we are to find and proclaim the existence of WMDs or a viable program for their
devrlopment, we have threatened, cajoled, injected (truth serum), and made promises (of immunity, of save havens
with houses for their families in other countries) to every high-level (and many low-level) prisoners in an attempt to
have them point out the weapons' location. Although far from reluctant (note how the prisoners have quickly given up
colleagues and Saddam's other minions), none have pointed out WMDs. This reason seems far more compelling than
the sole reason the conservatives use to 'prove' the existence of such weapons.



Only one argument gives me the slightest pause: That we (Lay & Co.) have already discovered WMDs but are
carefully cataloging them and making sue of their proofs before going public.

BUT . . . would an administration that touted two mobile helium labs as WMDs in a speech in France (W. himself) even
as their use was still in doubt, be cautious or concerned about the niceties of accuracy before announncing what they
have been so desparate to announce for over 4 months now? I really doubt it.



So . . . Although we can't say for certain, I think we can safely bet that no Iraqi WMDs will ever be discovered. In
other words: "This one ain't comin' back to bite us in the butt."

[Cha]

3. Oh ..so Now it is the Fucking Scientists instead of the Fucking ...

WMD! Sorry, creep, that wasn't the Issue the attack on Iraq was sold on!

[htuttle]

4. Uh...right.

What, precisely was Saddam supposed to DO with these dangerous scientists?

I know that Bush is anti-science in general, but did he want Saddam to kill them? Give them lobotomies? Deport them somewhere?

Everyday, they come up with an excuse even more lame than the day before...

[robbedvoter]

6. Gas them, silly! Everyone knows what Saddam does.

Of course, that would justify our invasion out of sheer outrage, non?

[Career Prole]

27. That's it! Saddam was working on that!

Mass graves everywhere full of nuclear physicists! It's the long sought-after "smoking gun"! It's all so clear now. "Big box of film badges found in Iraq...full report at 11"
Bushit must go. The emperor is naked.

[psychopomp]

5. Scientists who potentially could build a nuke

Is that a known known or a known unknown?

John Bolton is spinning a whopper: we invaded because the WMD's were in their minds.

[prolesunited]

10. We invaded because the WMD's were in their minds.

Think of the stunning implications of that being passed off as a reason for invasion. First it was WMDs, then it was materials and now it's thoughts?!?!?

:wtf:

[meti57b]

7. those scientists must be genuises if they could design, build and deploy

WMDs in that "45 minutes" that bush claimed.

[htuttle]

14. With no modern materials, either

Since most of the critical components to nuclear weapons (like hi-speed triggers, etc...) were barred from being sold to Iraq, what were they going to build them with, coconuts and bamboo?

Wow. These guys must be like a whole cadre of 'Professors' from Gilligan's Island...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

8. By that logic, every Country in the wor;d with a couple of physicists

in the general population might be considered to be on the brink of starting a WMD program and should be bombed tomorrow.

:wtf: :wtf:

[Rose Siding]

25. Or every country with telephones!

They could call the scientists to get instructions. Or to place orders. :silly:

[cheapbeemr]

44. Every high school with a physics class......

*

[Dudley_DUright]

9. This is getting way past ridiculous and into the realm of farce

First Iraq had WMDs (we know where they are), then they had WMD programs, now its...

...the capability that Iraq sought to have ... WMD programs," Bolton said at the U.S. Embassy in Paris.

These people sure are masters of lowered expectations. Must be rubbing off from ol' whistle-ass himself.

[gratuitous]

12. They're just flinging the shit at the walls, aren't they?

Hoping against hope that something (anything!) will stick.

And trotting out John Bolton? Well, let me just say this about that:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/07/16/bolton/index_np.html

"John Bolton," {Jesse} Helms said, "is the kind of man with whom I would want to stand at Armageddon, or what the Bible describes as the final battle between good and evil."

* * *

Well before the accuracy of the president's rationale for waging a war in Iraq was questioned, Bolton was installed to help forge the administration's aggressive new foreign policy. His philosophy? To exaggerate slightly, Bolton believes the relationship between America and the rest of the world should resemble that between a hammer and a nail.

__________________

In a just society, John Bolton would earn his living wearing a three-pointed floppy cap and carrying a little scepter with his likeness.

[mike_c]

13. the real justification for invading Iraq....

Saddam Hussein once had a wet dream about a super-dooper atomic death ray....

[short bus president]

15. "had weapons" --> "had wepaons programs" --> "sought to have

weapons programs" --> "We fucked up bad and we will never ever admit it. Ever."

[ewagner]

17. Is this innoculation?

Somebody posted early on that this might mean that Kay actually couldn't find anything.

An earlier thread today quoted Kay as saying "he thinks he can still find WMDs"

These alpha-hotels are spinning so fast it makes me dizzy!

on edit:Somebody...maybe only Jon Stewert...needs to summarize the evolution of these lies/spin in a plain english version so the sheeple can understand how they've been played by BUSHCO

[bluedog]

19. Damn Man Can they Lower the Bar

any lower.... US officials and decision makers show themsleves as a BUNCH OF IDIOTS every time the open their mouths.....................

[xchrom]

20. john bolton

is a witch hunter -- he thinks the scientists were conjuring wmds -- writing spells to produce them
abbraccaddabbra wally bally -- CHEMICAL WEAPONS!
oy -- from the sublime to the ridiculous.

[IggleDoer]

21. So they "kept" their weapons scientists???

What were they supposed to do with them? Kill them?

[oldcoot]

41. Then we would have invaded Iraq to avenge their deaths

If they had killed their scientists, we would have invaded Iraq to avenge their deaths.

[Rollins]

22. How many will buy this?

How many will buy it as conclusive evidence that justified 10s of billions of tax payer dollars used to kill and likely starting generations of war in the Middle East?

So sad...

[NNN0LHI]

34. Probably about 70% of Americans will buy this. Because they want to n/t

[The Magistrate]

23. Let No One Forget

The criminals of the '00 Coup spoke of knowing the precise locations of large quantities of chemical and biological poisons in weaponized form. They spoke of an active program to develope nuclear weapons that might result within a few months in the detonation of such a device in a city in the United States.

These clearly were deliberate lies.

[Jack Rabbit]

48. Agreed, Sir

Now to cover up for the deliberate lies, they lower the bar that would justify the war after the fact. There are no weapons systems, then they start taling about weapons programs, as if that's what they meant all along.

With these remarks, Mr. Bolton seems to lower the bar yet further. Perhaps Saddam had no weapons programs, but he was entertaining thoughts of starting one. So, war is justified based on the collective ability of the Bush junta to read Saddam's mind.

The junta's justification for the invasion just gets curiouser and curiouser.

[fizzana]

26. Reason to invade # 324

Saddam was going to turn those reams of documents into paper airplanes laced with Ricin, Anthrax and VX. The prevailing winds in Iraq would then take the paper planes directly over the U.S.

[otohara]

28. Yeah, Scary Plans Burried In Back Yard

for 12 fricking years. More lies.

[w13rd0]

29. THOUGHT CRIME!

It is now a CRIME punishable by pre-emptive invasion and occupation to have within your borders an individual knowledgable enough to build a component of a potentially deadly weapon...


OH, OK, GEE, that sure justifies it...

[NNN0LHI]

30. And just where are these scientists now? And who are they working for?

Iran? North Korea? Syria? Does anyone know?

Don

[otohara]

31. This Headline????

Where in the article does it say that any Iraqi Scientist said anything??? I don't see any claim, or one Arab name, just more lies and speculaton based on previous lies

[Fovea]

32. ahhh ... WMD means

Wonks of Media Distraction.

[Liberal Veteran]

35. We invaded because they had KNOWLEDGE?

I think this rates a full fledged:

What the fuck????

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. I knew it! They were THINKING about WMDs!!! Glad we caught them...

...before they could actually manufacture any!!

OMG. At what cost?

Hundreds of American soldiers dead, and thousands maimed.

Thousands of Iraqis dead to include women and children, and tens of thousands maimed.

And the madness continues with each passing second.

And then there is Afghanistan...

[Beetwasher]

37. There were children who could have grown up to be scientists

who might one day build WMD's, or mothers who might have given birth to children who might grow up to be scientists and create WMD's etc., etc., etc....

[are_we_united_yet]

39. Hmmmmm lets see here...

So Iraq was capable of inflicting catastrophic WMD damage on the US within 45 minutes. And "The Issue" was Iraq seeking the capability to have WMD programs. So between these two endpoints must have been one hell of a Product Development/ Manufacturing process. Perhaps American Corporations can learn a thing or two from Iraq.

[are_we_united_yet]

40. delete

fat fingered the above twice

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

42. This is what it reminds me of... (photoshop)

[rooboy]

45. LOL - New nickname for Bush - 'Agent 86' n/t

[stickdog]

43. What's next for these folks?

Minority Report

Life begins at parental puberty?

[Cocoa]

46. "the world's worst dictator with the world's worst scientists"

Remember when Powell, at the UN, showed the shocking satellite photos of the scientists?

Remember when he held up that vial filled with scientists?

Remember Bush talking about the hundreds of gallons of deadly scientists?

[peterh]

47. Dang, Cocoa…

You know what….it wouldn’t surprise me at all if that those weren't the main talking points with Russ, Sean, and all the other talking nimrods tomorrow, if not already.

Come on people….it really was the scientists all along…just don’t ask us to prove it because we haven’t been able to prove a fucking think yet…uhhh….minor detail…