U.S. Marines Rally Round Iraq Probe Comrade

[leftchick]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6828512

~snip~

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. Marines rallied round a comrade under investigation for killing a wounded Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger circumstances.

Marines interviewed on Tuesday said they didn't see the shooting as a scandal, rather the act of a comrade who faced intense pressure during the effort to quell the insurgency in the city.

"I can see why he would do it. He was probably running around being shot at for days on end in Falluja. There should be an investigation but they should look into the circumstances," said Lance Corporal Christopher Hanson.

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

[molly]

1. Sounds like a * response

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."
"

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[StopTheMorans]

101. your last line is extremely incendiary

while i disagree with these soldiers actions in the extreme, you cannot paint all soldiers in Iraq with such a broad brush.

[JSJ]

318. how many more must be murdered by 'the troops' before they...

...themselves paint every last one of their number with a broadbrush. Save your intolerable defense of 'the troops' for the fairy tale forum.

[bowens43]

2. "they should look into the circumstances"

The cicumstances are irrelevent. He shot an unarmed man who was lying on the floor. He should be prosecuted like the criminal that he is. These marines are fucking animals.

[Winamericaback]

7. Agree

"These marines are fucking animals"

I'm TRYING SO hard to still support the troops but when shit like this come out I don't want to do it. I don't give a shit what they are doing, they are becoming murderers and not being penalized for it.

[atreides1]

15. I Cant' Support Them

All I can do is to ask God to forgive them for the crimes that they have committed, and to bring them home safe to their families.

I know that not all of them are like this, but when his fellow marines refuse to see the crime, and retired generals get on TV and try to justify murder, then how can one not question all of them.

What was that about how "all it takes for evil to grow, is for good men to do nothing", well evil has revealed itself and good people have done nothing.

The US is not the light of the world, it's the bringer of darkness.

[Name removed]

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[donheld]

316. I will support the troops

These boys and girls are drilled like animals for month on end, till they are screwed up in their thinking. I do not support the behavior like was displayed in this case but as a whole i don't believe they are like this.

[deutsey]

9. Yeah, let's investigate the circumstances

going all the way up to the lies Bush told that put the Marine in Iraq in the first place.

[Name removed]

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[Devil Dog Dem]

237. This Marine says: drop dead, Freeper Mint!

Go back to posting on RepressedSelf-loathingHomosexual.com, will ya?

[Name removed]

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[northzax]

13. and these are the Marines

the ones with the best training and the best discipline. THe US Marine Corps is the most professinal fighting force on the planet, and these men, and I use the term loosely, bring a bad name on all those who are proud to have Semper Fi as their motto.

THe guy who shot the prisoner will spend some time breaking large rocks into little rocks in Kansas, methinks. The ones who say this crap about shooting prisoners should receive the worst possible fate for a real marine: they should be transferred to regular army.

[atreides1]

17. Hey

Don't be dissing the Regular Army, transfer them to the Navy.

[Poor Richard Lex]

28. Navy Corpsmen serve right alongside USMC

from the infantry on up. Many CMOH winners are Navy Corpsmen. and don't forget the SEALS.

[ktrout01]

254. Hey ! Careful with the Navy diss !

As a sailor just home from a one year deployment driving patrol boats in the Gulf, I take offense to the transfer remark. That being said, back to the topic at hand. The shooting of an unarmed insurgent is deplorable but from my personal experience completely understandable. Now before the flames break out on my post, let me explain...I spent a year in the gulf and our rules of engagement were simple: nothing gets closer than 500 meters to our boat or the ship we were escorting. With the enemy being more than willing to kill themselves in the effort, we didn't trust anyone. Not the fisherman that we saw everyday, not the "pleasure" boaters on their yachts, not the coastal cargo boats that seemed to be everywhere. The marines in Iraq are under fire everyday. The enemy routinely booby traps everything, including battle dead. Unless the marine killed the insurgent, he could not be sure that the insurgent didn't have a pistol or grenade and ready to use it. It happens all the time. Anyone here been there, done that ? You can not pass judgement on people who are there. Let the military justice system, such that it is, make that determination. From accounts that I've read, the marine shot the insurgent and then made a comment something to the effect, "Now he's dead" . Again, not real professional but certainly understandable to me having had the same mind-set towards the enemy. Dead today, he's not going to try to kill me tomorrow.

[devilgrrl]

270. Welcome Home!

And thank you for your service. :-)

[RobinA]

292. Thank You

for this response from someone who has actually been in a war zone. I love it when people who have never been on the same side of the ocean as a war pontificate about battlefield behavior. Spend some time talking to guys who have actually been shot at before acting as judge and jury to what they do under extreme conditions. For that matter, take a trauma course at the local college and learn something.

[daleo]

21. Bush will want a Praetorian Guard soon

It sounds like this guy is a candidate.

[tuckessee]

47. Marines have always shot prisoners.

Especially if they think they "can't trust" those "people" as jarhead Graham said in the article.

Shooting of unarmed Japanese prisoners in the Pacific was so common that military intelligence units were frustrated because so few prisoners came in they had no one to interrogate.

This problem is quite well documented and can be read about in books such as South Pacific Diary by Mack Morris and others.

In Guadalcanal by Richard Frank, he describes a Japanese infantry unit battling in the Gifu area on the 'Canal which briefly considered surrendering en masse after hearing loudspeaker appeals.

However, over 70% of their comrades were wounded and they knew based on past experiences the Americans would shoot the wounded instead of bothering to transfer them so the officers elected to fight to the death instead.

I don't know where you get your idea that Marines are loathe to murder enemy who are hors de combat. It isn't based on history or reality.

[northzax]

65. Sure, there have always been bad actors

and in WWII, perhaps, a whole culture of them, but Marines like to claim that they are better than that, and I believe that most of them are, that they are proud of what they do, and what they are. I simply decide to hold them to their rhetoric.

[tuckessee]

74. It's not just a few "bad actors".

It's the pervasive culture of the military and especially of the Marine Corps.

War is a mob action and the military is a cult. That's a sure-fire recipe for murder, rape and mayhem.

Forget their "rhetoric", look at history and reality instead.

[LibLabUK]

50. Hmm..

"THe US Marine Corps is the most professinal fighting force on the planet"

Not really the thread for jingoistic nonsense.

Their actions in Falluja have shown that your claim is false, they are unprofessional and poorly trained, relying on overwhelming firepower rather than skill and tactics.


The failure of the US armed forces to adapt to peacekeeping and policing roles in Iraq, and the fact that they needed training from foreign forces in how to conduct themselves, is very telling.

[northzax]

64. um, not really

they aren't police or peacekeepers, it is a completely different skill set. Look, Apple designs and builds great computers, for playing music right? does that mean you can expect them to also build and make superior Violins? maybe Violas? different skill sets, right?
You're obviously an intelligent person, and doctors are intelligent people, so if I told you to personally remove your daughter's (or son's, or brother, whatever) Appendix within the next five days. shouldn't be a problem, right?

The Marines are the most heavily trained fighting force in the world, that is unarguable. More time and money is spent training a Marine than any other regular ground soldier in the world. can't argue with that. But they are trained to kill people, that's their whole raison d'etre, not to be police officers. The Marine Expeditionary Units are invasion forces, not peacekeepers. Now other nations train their soldiers to be peacekeepers, anequally valuable skill set, and one that is equally difficult to master, but one that requires a completely different motivation.

Frankly, the decision to use overwhelming firepower instead of house to house fighting was made to accomodate a public that cares more about the death of one Marine than 1,000 Iraqis. They are a reflection of the priorities and culture ofthe country asa whole, something worth remembering.

[rodeodance]

202. the immorality is how We (the US) put them into a situation such as this

[DS1]

25. Yeah, you were in the room when he was shot

and you're so sure he was unarmend.

This is FReeper class ignorance, just slanted to the opposite side of the spectrum.

[northzax]

44. it is on video tape, you know?

US Marines don't shoot prone, wounded men in the back of the head.

[Tiberius]

45. I wasn't in the room, but my *hunch* was that he was unarmed

... which is exactly the point: when you place our military in occupation of a large, extremely hostile country, dose them up with "go" pills, scare them, excite them, dehumanize their enemy, and then put them in extremely dangerous situations, they will do reprehensible things.

It all comes back to how this stupid war should have never been launched in the first place. Just like Abu Gharib, the lowest level grunt will be punished for their admittedly stupid and vile actions; but they'll never go EVEN ONE STEP up the chain of command, nor will the underlying root causes ever be examined. It'll all be glossed over and everyone will be "shocked and aghast" at the individual actions of the soldier.

[bowens43]

71. It's not a hunch.

They have admitted that he was wounded and unarmed.

[Bush was AWOL]

81. Did the soldier know that when he shot him?

If not, it's understandable what he did considering what they went through to get to that point.

Lots of heavy and intense fighting, you know. Not a lot of time for rational thinking.

[bowens43]

84. He said he shot the guty because he was breathing.

The guy was wounded, lying on the floor. There was a room full of marines. There was no threat.

[Name removed]

235. Deleted message

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[Devil Dog Dem]

236. Mint is a Freeper!

See he/she/its other posts.
Hey Freeper: Go back to posting on RepressedSelf-loathingHomosexual.com, will ya?

[Winter Ranger]

250. Go Pills???

What are these "go pills", exactly?

[daleo]

255. I believe they are a type of amphetamine

I recall that the pilot that did the friendly fire bombing of the Canadian troops in Afghanistan was supposed to have been on "go pills". They are said to interfere with judgment, etc. I seem to recall something about this with the marine assault as well, but nothing more specific.

[Winter Ranger]

260. Sorry about the sarcasm...

But I do know from experience that some pilots were in fact prescribed Dexadrine on a mission by mission basis during combat in both the first Gulf War and OEF, but I can assure you, the only pills available to ground troops would be the "No-Doz" they are getting in the mail from mom. As far as amphetamines affecting judgment and other higher cognitive processes, well it pretty much follows the same downward curve of the same time frame of sleep deprivation without amphetamines. The accepted conclusion is the lack of sleep affecting higher cog process, the drugs just keep your heart rate and respiration up.

[daleo]

274. Like I say, I had heard about medication of pilots

Sometimes you hear about research into drugs for foot soldiers, but I haven't heard of these necessarily being used. As you say, clearly sleep deprivation does affect judgment and other cognitive functions.

[tedzbear]

280. What about the black market "cross tops" they get from their buddy?

Mom may be sending them NO DOZ, but I'm sure the illegal cross tops and other amphetamines are way more popular.

[bowens43]

70. Did you watch the damn video??

Maybe you should before you start spouting off. The guy was wounded. Lying on the floor, unarmed and the guy shot him in the head . Why? According the murderous bastard who did it, because he was breathing.

No ignorance here, perhaps you should look at yourself more closely.

[Bucky]

134. I wish it were that simple

Apparently the insurgents have been wiring corpses with bombs. Nothing, not even a wounded or dead person, can be considered safe in that hell hole. Let's not make another Lt Calley-type scape goat out of this one Marine. It's damn dangerous place in there that we've created. This is one of those incidents that are bound to occur when you start a war. But events like this are the by-product of combat. The big problem is pointless battles and pointless wars, not the stress-caused use of inappropriate force on individual combatants during those pointless conflicts.

In other words, let's blame the generals and their bosses, not the foot soldiers forced to execute their bad decisions.

[ilovenicepeople]

221. Kool-aid anyone?????

:puke: Apparently corpses breath.Flame away to regain your superioraty.

[Name removed]

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[TankLV]

171. Umm - Our morality - our humanity - our stand on just about every thing

makes us human.

This guy was SCUM. SCUM. He deserves the CHAIR.

I do not support THIS trooper.

Now, I ask you, how many thousands of others are there without pictures and audio?

THIS IS NOT RIGHT.

IT BETTER DAMN WELL BE CONDEMNED!

And you can be goddamned sure this was no isolated incident.

spinning and makeing excuses, just like a repuke.

[Name removed]

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[ktrout01]

257. Here' a happy thought for you to consider

If a wounded Marine had been found by the insurgents, they would have beheaded him and sent THEIR video tape to Al Jazeera and you're response to that on the evening news would be ...

[Prisonerohio]

160. What!

Common the guy just got released from the hopitial after being shot in the head. He lost it. Who can blame him. Most of the messages in this thread seem incredibly ignorant of what war is really like. I am not saying it gives them carte blanche to do what they want. He definatly should never be put in a position to hold a gun again. To call Marines animals though is a little to much. Lets put the blame on his superiors who sent him into battle so soon after being shot and the administration who put him in harms way.

[Clarkie1]

273. I find your post offensive - You have no idea the context of what happened

and neither do I.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"

[underpants]

3. This isn't very surprising-they see it as them against everyone right now

I saw the same type of thing happened on ABC WNT (was it Friday) but apparently that didn't get the same press coverage. This is probably occurring more than anyone thinks.

[still_one]

4. same crap they said about mai lai

screw them all

pox on all their houses

I guess the nazi only following orders is a good excuse for genocide also

[Lizzie Borden]

169. This is exactly the point we got to in Vietnam.

It was said that we didn't support the troops, and we had come not to. There were many who just simply couldn't support their actions.

[RyomaSakamoto]

5. the new 'NORMAL'

that's exactly why the guy had no qualms about doing it on camera, many are doing the same thing.

that journalist better get otta there.

[Tace]

6. I Can Believe Many Of These Soldiers Believe "He Did Nothing Wrong"

They have been trained to kill, even innocents, without remorse.

I fear this is going to make the aftermath of Vietnam, in terms of mentally ill veterans, seem minor.

[saigon68]

293. Thats because many of them are THUGS and KILLERS

Spend a few days with them as a group doing this Murdering. You will become more pacifist than me

I absolutely Guarantee it.

To those pricks who have flocked here from RimJobs place like the insurgents in the last couple of days.

ENJOY YOUR SHORT STAY.

[atreides1]

8. And When The Insurgents Kill Wounded Americans

Sergeant Graham will be one of the first ones to call for "justice".

All this incident has done is convinced the insurgents that there are no rules anymore, and that anything goes. Yes, I know the insurgents have not been playing by the rules either, but the US military is not supposed to be doing the same thing.

The gloves are off, and the next video we see, could very well be that of an American soldier being beheaded, what a great present that will be to the family back home.

Thank you George and Alberto.

[Tace]

16. Does Anyone Know Geneva Convention Rules For Conduct Of Insurgents?

I'm gunna' have to take a look at the Geneva Conventions regarding the "rules" that the people of occupied nations are supposed to follow in their conduct toward their occupiers.

[Bush was AWOL]

78. I don't believe Geneva Conventions apply to insurgents

They are not protected by Geneva Conventions.

[The Sad Little Pony]

126. The GENEVA CONVENTION...

...applies to Nations who have signed it.

[Zynx]

132. It's also not very nice to irregular combatents

Essentially, unless you are in some form of uniform and acting as a lawful combatent, you can just be executed.

Examples of unlawful combatents are pirates, mercenaries, criminal gangs operating in a warzone and terrorists. All of these can just be killed on the spot - the convention "approves" this by putting all of these outside the catagory of lawful combatent that is considered protected by the Rules. Geurillas have always been a tricky grey area.

You have guys that are generally functioning as part of an organized combatent force, but are frequently in no sort of uniform whatsoever.

Based on the fact the US military seems unhappy about this, it would seem that soldiers are at least supposed to regard the Iraqi insurgents as legitimate combatents.

[RyomaSakamoto]

141. that's NONSENSE, but EXACTLY the same thing imperial japan argued

in NANKING when they used the term ILLEGAL COMBATANTS.

Background Paper on Geneva Conventions and Persons Held by U.S. Forces

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/pow-bck.htm
...

The rights and protections granted to POWs are enumerated in detail in the Third Geneva Convention. "Nonprivileged" or "unlawful" combatants are protected under the Fourth Geneva Convention, customary international law and, where applicable, Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions. Although the United States is not a party to Protocol I, the U.S. government accepts many of its provisions as part of customary international law; especially relevant is article 75 on "fundamental guarantees," which sets out basic standards of humane treatment and due process that is required for all persons affected by the conflict, regardless of their status.

Humane Treatment: POWs must be humanely treated at all times. They must be protected against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults or public curiosity. POWs must be kept in facilities "under conditions as favorable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power in the same area." In particular, "the premises provided for the use of prisoners of war...shall be entirely protected from dampness and adequately heated and lighted." (Third Geneva, Arts. 13, 25, 34).

Nonprivileged combatants are entitled to humane treatment. While the detainees can be denied certain rights that would endanger security-such limitations should be absolutely necessary, and should never amount to inhumane or degrading treatment.

http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/pow-bck.htm

psst... pass the word ;->

[Zynx]

170. "Customary international law" is also not very kind to most "unlawfuls"

Stateless individuals who are engaged in criminal activity are generally subject to open season. It's called universal jurisdiction. Pirates are the classic example. They have no rights whatsoever and any military unit of any nation that finds some can do whatever it wants, either jailing or just hanging them. I think stateless terror groups like al-Qaeda would also go in this catagory.

Mercs are explicitly regarded as open season. Geneva isn't very nice to them, and for good reason.

http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/history.html

>>The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.

Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups — and thus endanger the civilian population — are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention.<<

[saigon68]

151. that's why I support the mercenary barbecue

They also have no leg to stand on.

[rainbow4321]

10. "Insurgents"

Why do I keep waiting for shrub to start calling those of us here at home who disagree with him "insurgents"....

[atldem]

11. This is exactly the same

thing that happened in Vietnam. The stress of battle, booby trapped bodies, and the feeling of not knowing why they are there causes these reactions. What this soldier did is horrible, but I can never understand the pressure that these soldiers are under because I am not there.

I will condemn my government for sending them there, but I will never condemn these G.I.'s for reacting to extreme fear.

[jpak]

12. Support the Troops!

and Praise Jesus!!!

They're doing the Lord's work over there in I-raq...

Thank God that George W. Bush is my president - that Libr'l Kerry would have that poor Marine tried for war crimes in the Hague...

They should give that soldier a medal for killin' that unarmed wounded terrorism...

He's a Hero not a Zero!

<sarcasm off>

[dkofos]

14. This shit makes me sick.

Getting harder and harder to support the troops.

Thanks * you fucking animal.

:evilfrown: :evilfrown: :evilfrown:

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

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[TankLV]

172. Folks - we have ANOTHER one.

I believe this one won't be around topside for much longer.

This one takes the cake.

[talullah]

185. No..

You take the cake for saying this soldier is guilty before an investigation has even started. Don't call me a Repuke simply because I believe in due process. I'm a Dean fan. I'm through talking to you now.

[marylanddem]

18. Victims or murderers?

At first I saw our troops as victims of an idiot chickenhawk president's madness. Now I'm starting to see them as murderers. I'll never forget the video of the wounded man being shot, nor should I.

[DS1]

19. I'd have blasted him too.

Take no chances.

[opihimoimoi]

24. Why don they say it was MERCY Killing....? I knoiw if I was wounded where

survival was in doubt and I was in intense pain, I would like to end it by dying, I wouldn't give a fyck who shot me.... end it already.

The guy was shot in the HEAD ... not in the arm or leg...

[DS1]

26. The footage doesn't show whether he was unarmed or not

DU assumes the worst, FR assumes he was behind a machinegun, there's no middle ground anymore.

Both these sites have invalidated themselves with mindless bullshit- everyone parrots what they want to believe, and 90% of you are welcome to kiss my ass. Not you, OP

[opihimoimoi]

40. The code of war is not written.... you take care of your own..sometimes

when they are wounded beyond help and the pain is intense, your own buddy asks to be put down..... Tearfully, some of us may have had to do this. And, yes, we do this to those opponents too.

It Triage, save the ones who can survive and mercy kill those too wounded to make it. Such is the horror of war, been that way since Alexander and the Trojans, the Hittites, the Cannaties, and the Khan Boys.

[Turley]

61. Good post DS1

You won't find many middle-of-the-roaders on this sort of thread.

Frankly it looks like he waxed the guy outright, but no way they get a conviction unless the Corp really wants to hang the guy. Camera angle was bad and he can always claim he thought there was a weapon. How you gonna prove otherwise? 24 hour combat ops. Got shot in the face himself the day before. He's got plenty of outs.

I predict they won't prosecute, much less convict.

[Bragi]

139. I agree

They won't prosecute this war crime any more than the other war crimes going on in Falluja. The indiscriminate shooting of civilians, the unnecessary destruction of the city, the disproportionate use of deadly force in civilian areas, the refusal to let men leave the city while the killing raged, the failure to provide medical assistance to the wounded, all these are war crimes. The entire assault on Falluja is just one big war crime that I am sure will not be prosecuted.

If there is any bright spot in this, however dim it may be, it is that with Falluja, the phrase "war crimes" is now part of the Iraq storyline. This should have been the case all along, but better late than never.

- B

[RyomaSakamoto]

312. very true

at least it is FINALLY being MENTIONED.

peace

[mike_c]

67. the Iraqi wounded had already been disarmed and left...

...behind as NEUTRALIZED NON-COMBATANTS by an earlier Marine squad. He was unarmed, unconscious, and barely breathing. That Marine's duty was to insure his safety, not murder him in cold blood. I hope the pig spends the rest of his miserable life in Levenworth!

[jayfish]

68. Except For The Fact That The Reporter On The Scene...

said that all weapons were removed by US forces the day before and these people were left to die. He also said that there were no signs of weapons in the building PERIOD. But who you gonna believe someone who has no stake in the events or someone trying to cover-up a murder?

Jay

EDITED FOR TYPO

[RyomaSakamoto]

88. "Both these sites have invalidated themselves with mindless bullshit"

thanks for adding to that perception :toast:

[RyomaSakamoto]

92. hitler already used that excuse

didn't work for him either.

shooting wounded POW's seems to be perfectly fine for many not to mention denying food, water an aid to a whole city :puke:

if the shoe was on the other foot the OUTRAGE would be everywhere.

[DS1]

99. Oh look, there's the Hitler bomb

and the additions to the perception continue :toast:

[RyomaSakamoto]

112. when the shoe fits

but murdering wounded POWs is only 1 small example of our WAR CRIMES in iraq.

your type remind me of the imperial japanese defending their occupation of nanking.

you all are reacting out of FEAR and IGNORANCE.

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself." - Thomas Paine

[NorthernSpy]

29. aren't you the same guy who wanted to...

... nominate three drowned women for a Darwin Award when they had panicked and called a friend instead of 911 after their car went off an embankment and into a river? It was a Lounge thread, I think, and it kind of stuck in my mind. Wasn't that you?


Me, I'm praying that my life never depends on your capacity for moral reasoning.

[DS1]

31. Yep, that was me, and plenty others

I'd have gone a step further and dropped a WP grenade in there and burned the place down afterwards.

[NorthernSpy]

33. then it's a good thing you're not over there

Speaking of which, I wonder why you're not...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DS1]

107. Oh sure

Really though, if someone called me a cat torturer to my face I'd likely kick their fucking teeth in.

[JanMichael]

111. Really? That IS thin-skinned.

Sorry but there are alternatives to violence just because your feelings get hurt.

[DS1]

113. Fair enough.

Hope they have a good dentist.

[NorthernSpy]

146. on the other hand

It's easy to talk about shooting the wounded, throwing phosphorus grenades, and beating people up; and it's easy to take offense at such talk; but it's also easy to forget that most of the people who talk about such actions probably couldn't really follow through if it came down to that.

So, it's really all right. I doubt that you would actually be capable of doing any those things.

[not systems]

152. Isn't that the type of thing a "cat torturer" might do?

[Name removed]

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[jayfish]

48. Re-Up Dude.

There's lotsa indigenous folks over there who need to be willey pete'ed. Blow-backs a bitch on those things though so be careful ...NOT.

Jay

[DS1]

56. You don't seem to have an ability to see shades of grey

It's possible to be against the war and want the absolute safety of our troops at the same time.

I've been out there in numerous anti-war protests, but now my brothers are there, I'll support them.

Of course, Abu Graib will come up, I don't support that. But I'm also not going to assume the actions of 2% are the same as the actions of everyone else.

[jayfish]

62. I'm Not Into Shades Of Gray At The Moment.

Shades of gray is what got us into this mess to begin with. Besides our new king says shades of gray are "flip-flops" and "maxed messages." How gray was your WP grenade remark?

Jay


TYPO EDIT

[DS1]

104. My WP remark was pretty damn white

Again, you miss the point.

[jayfish]

109. I Guess I Am Missing The Point.

I'll look again tonight when (hopefully) I am not so emotional about this thread. I think I will come around to the same argument I am making now though.

Jay

[NorthernSpy]

I am not going to "suck your ass"

If you want such things, consult a professional.

You say you have done time? I believe that you can get a special waiver and they will let you join, but I am not sure. To find out for certain, you will have to consult another kind of professional.

[Squatch]

52. I think he meant he served in the military

in those years.

[Squatch]

54. Sorry, I should have said "he or she meant..."

Don't mean to be gender discrimanatory.

[northzax]

53. oh, well then

thank you for your service. I am sure that you served honorably and to the best of your ability, and were a credit to your service and your nation. That said, doesn't it disturb you that the reputation of the finest, most disciplined, most trained and proudest large fighting force in the world is being tarnished by the actions of a few (unless, of course, NBC faked the video tape) THe reason we no longer have a conscript army is that volunteers tend to have a higher level of profesisonalism and discipline, wholesale murder is more the hallmark of undertrained and unmotivated conscripts, notthe professional soldiers of the USMC. Make no mistake, in a war, I want the Marines on my side, but if I had to lose ot someone, it would also be the USMC, they have the best reputation for dealing with the vanquished. Every time some asshole tarnishes that reputation, it makes it more difficult for his comrades. Treating prisoners well is not only a mark of honor, and the law, but simply good strategy, an emeny that knows you treat prisoners well is more likely to surrender, rather than fight to the death.

[DS1]

58. Like I said above

There are shades of grey that reactionary DUers are missing, just like we don't assume all female elementary school teachers are sexual predators because one got caught in WA, we shouldn't assume that all soldiers are bloodthirsty remoreseless mindless GOP killing machines.

Also, like I said above, this place is becoming no better than FR in it's groupthink parroting, and I'm really wondering what the point is anymore.

And you're welcome :hi:

[RyomaSakamoto]

121. don't let the door hit ya

where the good lord split ya :hi:

"Also, like I said above, this place is becoming no better than FR in it's groupthink parroting, and I'm really wondering what the point is anymore."

you sound like the talk radio wackos going n about the 'liberals' in the CIA :crazy:

a time-out would probably help you get your bearings again, gl :toast:

[jayfish]

142. I Have Come To Conclude That YOU...

are the one who is not seeing shades of gray. Who said that all soldiers are "bloodthirsty remorseless mindless GOP killing machines"?
I just think that this one guy (and I'm sure several others) is. And his buddies are all dick-heads for helping him justify it. You seem to be the one having trouble separating this one guy from the rest of the military.

Jay

[TankLV]

179. Yeah - Peace, Justice, Fairness, Obeying the law - all "groupthink".

Please just leave - you are an embarassment to us all.

So, in your esteememd (ahem) opinion - just how do they/we differ from the NAZI's and others we fought against?

I suppose you think there are instances where torture is Okie dokie, too, huh?

I missed it someplace.

This country USED to stand for the better ideals of mankind.

I am certainly not part of THIS country that your kind has made excuses for.

[RyomaSakamoto]

96. lounge lizard

bigmouth, eh... that explains it.

thanks for sharing :toast:

[DS1]

102. Whatever

Keep your :toast: s , I've yet to see anything insightful from you and your types

[RyomaSakamoto]

106. Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself

it's lonely at the top ;->

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RyomaSakamoto]

115. now, now calling folks names is against the rules here or are those quaint

i think pointing out that MURDERING a wounded POW is against the GC and therefore a WAR CRIME has repeatedly been pointed out.

[StopTheMorans]

118. how many times do we have to re-hash this?

they weren't informed that the building was full of wounded POW's and an insurgent feigning to be wounded blew himself up a few blocks away from that very same building and injured soldiers. there are shades of gray, you know, and you really do yourself a disservice by spouting "war crimes" and things of that nature when this is not a clear cut issue by any means (Abu Gharaib was a clear cut issue).

[RyomaSakamoto]

123. denying AID, TARGETING HOSPITALS, cutting off FOOD and WATER r ALL

WAR CRIMES... murdering an unarmed, wounded pow is just one of the more minor WAR CRIMES.

what if it was one of our guys it happened to, you would be saying the same thing.

think about it...

:hi:

[StopTheMorans]

129. yes, i have thought about it; thanks for assuming that i haven't

spent as much time thinking about the mess in Iraq as you have. I'm against the war, I'm against any violations of the Geneva Conventions, and I'm against "collateral damage". But you insist on sticking to this idealized view of war once it happens. this thread IS about "murdering an unarmed, wounded pow" as you say. BUT, as i've said and as you INSIST UPON ignoring, the soldier who shot that man did not know that he was entering a building full of pows (the officer of the men who were in there before this group of soldiers did not inform them of the fact). and, AGAIN, an insurgent HAD POSED AS A WOUNDED SOLDIER and had blown himself up attempting to wound US forces in the exact same area a few days earlier. if you can't see gray; you don't belong on this site.

[RyomaSakamoto]

i didn't say that

just suggested you consider the other side of the story.

but apparently you are convinced nothing wrong happened here and that's your opinion, fine. i am very concerned that we are adopting the very same rationale the imperial japanese had when occupying china right down to ILLEGAL COMBATANTS and EXECUTING people on the spot even WOUNDED unarmed PEOPLE.

sorry, but i will ALWAYS speak out against that... but i fear it's too late and we are all going to hell on a bobsled.

peace

[Bragi]

149. Problems with the suspected bomb theory

StopTheMorans writes: "AGAIN, an insurgent HAD POSED AS A WOUNDED SOLDIER and had blown himself up attempting to wound US forces in the exact same area a few days earlier."

There are two reasons I can think of as to why it is unlikely that the killer in this particular incident thought the victim had an explosive device:

1. The video shows that the killing took place in a relatively small room. If the victim had a bomb, he could have taken out the US troops (and the NBC crew)as soon as these targets entered the room. Why would he wait?

2. The killer fired from just a few feet away. The fact that the killer got so close suggests that he didn't think the guy was concealing an explosive device.

- B

[jayfish]

127. So Then We Should Just Shoot All The Fallujah's Wounded...

then, right?

Jay

[StopTheMorans]

131. that's a logical fallacy

you can't go from "this soldier had no idea that the man he encountered was a wounded pow" to "it's ok to shoot any wounded pows". thanks for accrediting this false inference to me though. this is a unique example, and should be treated as one.

[jayfish]

135. I Am Not Crediting It To You...

I am trying to show you that if you justify this act based on a rigged person a block away, you can justify the killing of all wounded Iraqis based on the same incident. Whether they would actually do it is irrelevant. The precedent will have been set.

Jay

[StopTheMorans]

136. fair enough, the main crux of my argument isn't that this man was on

edge due to that incident (although that was a supporting factor); it was that this man didn't even know that this man was a wounded pow. thanks for being civil :)

[TankLV]

184. OK - just how do you know that "an insurgent feigning to be wounded blew

himself up a few blocks away from that very same building and injured soldiers"

I have seen NOTHING on that one.

Or are these same criminals claiming that one in addition to "just following orders" crap?

[StopTheMorans]

206. CBS News with Dan Rather, last night's edition 11/15

thanks for asking though. i'm not in any way, shape, or form defending the BFEE, or it's handling of this war, but again, this is a unique incident and must be treated as such (i.e. we can't crucify this soldier for all of the misdeeds that have been repeatedly perpetrated throughout the war). it's not that hard to scream "war crimes" whenever something like this comes up; but it's not that responsible either...

[leesa]

239. So shooting him with bullets will not blow him up??

You are so full of shit.

[NCN007]

262. No

it probably wouldnt. Most explosives need to be detonated, not just struck with a bullet, to explode.

[barb162]

310. "'are these same criminals' He is innocent until proven

guilty and aren't you a bit premature already convicting him?

[TankLV]

181. I think we ALL can see who that is, and it is DEFINITELY NOT the poster

you refer to.

Maybe SOMEONE should look in the mirror.

Been long practicing projection on others?

[bowens43]

72. That just makes you one of them.

With attitudes like yours it's no wonder the US is the most hated country on the planet.

Why aren't you over there killing your share of the 'ragheads'?

[DS1]

110. I'm okay with that

In this circumstance.

[TankLV]

174. God save us from your kind.

You make me sick.

I feel very sorry for you.

[GH0ST]

297. Take no chances

I agree, if you're going to join the Marines and put yourself in that position, then "take no chances" is the rule to live by. If you aren't comfy with that, stay out of the military. Otherwise you just make everybody more nervous.

[daleo]

20. Is this like Abu Ghraib?

Maybe there was an understanding from higher up, that encouraged this. "Take no prisoners", beyond a few for interrogation. We know Bush and Rummy couldn't care less about international law.

Otherwise, the attitudes being expressed by the marines show a disturbing breakdown in discipline.

[leftchick]

23. exactly right...

this is the no accountability administration after all... :grr:

[sixfive]

143. actually,

FWIW, I've heard they have shipped out quite a few prisoners. Something like several hundred to 1000.

[daleo]

147. And they claim to have killed well over a thousand

Who knows how accurate any of these figures are though. Now that "torture memo guy" is Attorney General, we may never know.

[wovenpaint]

22. "he did nothing wrong"...............???????

We are on a very dark path, led by our own axis of evil.
What happens when these poor kids come back home? Will they be able to re-learn right from wrong after this?
:grr: :scared: :-(

[zulchzulu]

27. These guys should shut up, fall back in line and let us investigate

We won't find out the truth anyway...so let us "investigate" anyway.

[Hey Zeus]

30. ok, now it is ridiculous

marines rallying around a comrade is comendable.

knowing what little i know,this combatant was not innocent.

it is a war zone.

if lives are threatened by this combatant, and with the backdrop of house to house fighting, the killing of this individual was warranted if it saved U.S. lives. i base this on what little information we have on this situation.

[jayfish]

32. Well God Damn!

Lets just nuke the whole fucking city then. The gubment said all the civies are gone. Fuck lets just nuke all the population centers and keep that sweet, sweet oil all for ourselves.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

43. you make impressive leaps to this conclusion

what is your basis for supporting this?

[jayfish]

51. Well The First Impressive Leap,...

on your part,is that this person is a combatant at all. Who told you that he was? Per your justification this is a war-zone with house to house fighting. If it's house to house fighting then the whole city is a potential threat to our guys. Why not just kill the whole damn place. A mercy killing if you will.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

55. it will be hard to discuss this with you..

if you feel our military is full of dishonorable, lying killers. the investigation will show the facts of the case. if the soldier in question, his comrades on the scene, and his immediate officers concur that it was a combatant, will you believe it, or feel they are all lying?

[jayfish]

66. You Are Correct.

It will be hard to discuss this with me. Did you confuse my post with someone else's? Because I certainly don't recall saying that "our military is full of dishonorable, lying killers. But hey, this whole argument is about context so you take it any way you want.

Jay

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jayfish]

73. Okie Dokie Then.

You keep painting with that brush cause it's huge. BTW I hope you are never on a murder/conspiracy jury cause man are you a push-over. All you have to do is get everyone to parrot the same story.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

79. so you do believe them to be liars?

honorable men abound in my experience in the military.

[bowens43]

83. Do honorabl;e men shoot

wounded , unarmed men in trhe head because they are breathing?

[Hey Zeus]

86. is that what you think happened?

if they said otherwise, would you believe it? do you assume the worst about our men and women in uniform and delight in an opportunity to criticize them.

[jayfish]

90. Ah... Your Are Distancing Yourself From Reality Here.

That is exactly what happened. The video shows the reporter confirms it and the soldier admitted it. WTF more does it take for this to move out of the realm of speculation for you?

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

158. actually...

the report said they had to secure the building again after it had been retaken. and the injured men appeared to have new injuries from the fresh fighting.

[jayfish]

190. Well, If That Is Correct...

I'll will give you that point. In the grand scheme, however, it seems irrelevant seeing as they were 2 feet from the guy they thought could potentially blow them up.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

195. if the insurgent or enemy soldier..

was indeed unarmed and not engaged in combat operations immediately before his death, then this man should be disiplined. but he is not a murderer. there is a difference.

[Forkboy]

284. killing an unarmed man who is not engaged in combat operations

isn't murder? What is the difference?

Also,what would you consider a fitting discipline?

[Redleg]

319. Crucifixion.

Actually, we should have a trial before the punishment, donchya think?

[Lizzie Borden]

173. Well, that's what the reporter said.

They showed the entire thing on PBS.

[jayfish]

85. Do You Believe The Reporter On The Scene To Be A Liar?

Honorable men abound in my experience in the military as well. My Grandfather, Father, Brother, all of their CO's and troops under their command. But this man and the people who defend his actions are not being honorable. I was ready to join myself if not for a knee injury my Senior year in HS, so don't give me this anti-military crap.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

94. have you read the posts here?

have you read the responses? is this person is innocent? you do not know the situation on the ground.

[jayfish]

105. What Situation On The Ground?

What info are you not getting about this story that the rest of as are and why aren't you getting it?

1.The building was cleared of weapons the day before this incident.
2.Some wounded men were left behind.
3.US forces returned to the site the next day.
4.Several of the people left behind had succumbed to their wounds.
5.A soldier spotted a wounded man who was still breathing.
6.The soldier shot the man, point-blank, in the head because he was still breathing.
7.The reporter on the scene said there were no signs of weapons in the building.


What situation on the ground justifies this? When we prosecute murders in the criminal justice system, do we look at the situation on the ground?

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

120. and the situation on the ground may mean nothing to you...

but to those boys it does.

"About a block away, a Marine was killed and five others wounded by a booby-trapped body they found in a house after a shootout with insurgents."

"But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside.

Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead,..."

hmmm. why did they think the building had been retaken? why did the men appear to be shot again in fighting?

i will wait for the facts to come out.

[jayfish]

130. So We Have Come Full Circle In This Debate.

If you are going to justify this based on what happened a block away then you can just get it done with and kill all of the wounded in Fallujah. They could all be booby trapped. Somehow I think this will slip past your consciousness and we will have to go over the whole thing again.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

156. i notice you did not address the other part...

about the house being retaken by insurgents. and a block is so very far.

[jayfish]

164. Hmmm.... Let's See.

The men who were dying on the floor were the same ones (according to the report) who were dying on the floor the day before. Once again there was no evidence of weapons of any kind at the site. if it was so dangerous why were all of those soldiers in the building. An IED going off would have killed them all. Not only were they in the building, they were comfortable enough to walk right up to the supposed threat an put a .223 through his head. Your going to tell me that when fighting is house-to-house that a block in not far?

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

168. hmmm...i see.

i have read conflicting reports to what you state. i support this soldier and his comrades.

"The Marine commander in Falluja, Lieutenant General John Sattler, said his men followed the law of conflict and held themselves to a high standard of accountability. "


"The facts of this case will be thoroughly pursued to make an informed decision and to protect the rights of all persons involved," he said. "


"Marines have repeatedly described the rebels they fought against in Falluja as ruthless fighters who didn't play by the rules. They say the investigation is politically motivated. "


"It's all political. This Marine has been under attack for days. It has nothing to do with what he did," said Corporal Keith Hoy, 23. "

[jayfish]

176. Then You Support Murder.

Of course the Marine commander is going to side with his men. What is this "law of conflict"? Hooray they are going to protect the rights of a dead man. "Ruthless fighters who didn't play by the rules?" Sounds like Bush to me. We broke the rules that we made in Iraq. What do you suppose the no-fly zones were about? They were about stopping Saddam from using fixed-wing attack aircraft against Iraqis. Yet we bomb them on a daily basis. What is an acceptable ROE when a tank rolls down YOUR street spraying COAX and 120mm rounds all over the place and all you have is an AK and some looted explosives?

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

177. your anger and disgust with

our armed forces is evident. rational arguments are useless.

[jayfish]

187. Damn It.

You just don't get it. I even made the point of saying "sounds like Bush" and you still want to plaster this "hate the troops" BS all over the place. Is it just me or are human beings able to entertain more than one idea at a time ?

Idea #1: This was murder
Idea #2: The soldiers are under enormous physical and mental stress there.
Idea #3: Enormous stress is not a justification for murder.

What rational argument have you made? All of his buddies and CO say it's ok so that makes it ok?

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

193. something you will never understand...

it is not just his buddies. it is his fellow marines. he has not had a hearing and you do not know all the facts yet, and you have condemned not only him but his officers and comrades. that is the hatred i am talking about, not questioning the mission or the motivations of the president. your disgust with the military itself is evident. i have seen justifications made here for the insurgents acts. i have not seen the same treatment for our soldiers.

[jayfish]

199. Oh Now It's A DU Hates The Soldiers Thing.

This thread if rife with people defending his actions. You must only be reading our portion of it. BTW I am so sick and tired of you people and your "you will never understand" bullshit. I understand perfectly well. I just don't agree. You don't have some sort of mythical bond that is beyond the realm or ordinary human understanding. YOU JUST DON'T! Lets just end this here because we will argue ourselves to death and neither will make any headway.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

201. here in general, you in particular...

i agree, we will make no headway. no hard feelings.

[jayfish]

205. None Here.

And welcome to DU. :hi:

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

208. thanks

long time listener, first time caller.

[Winter Ranger]

256. An acceptable ROE

"What is an acceptable ROE when a tank rolls down YOUR street spraying COAX and 120mm rounds all over the place and all you have is an AK and some looted explosives?"
Sounds like you should drop your AK and looted explosives, and then maybe volunteer to man a polling site for the Jan. elections.

[RyomaSakamoto]

263. what if they're using ELECTRICAL BALLOTS?

and what about all the women and children who can't vote and don't have arms... or legs, anymore :shrug:

welcome to DU :hi:

[jayfish]

277. Yeah, And I'm Sure Thats What You Would...

do if it were T-90's and BMP's rolling down a street in your little neck of the woods. I bet you'd be the first in line. I'd call you a traitor though and you would be the first on my sympathizers list.

Jay

[saigon68]

266. aha the jerk who said I was unpatriotic in the other thread

Why don't you sign up w halliburton and kill a few children

[DS1]

59. Who told you he wasn't?

That's the argument.

[jayfish]

63. No One.

It just seems that since all of the defenders are running with the "we're not there so we don't know the "real story" line, we should just extend that out a little bit further. You're not there so you don't know if he was a combatant.

Jay

[DS1]

103. Which is precisely my point, nobody knows but WE'RE ALL EXPERTS!!

Fuck it.

[jayfish]

116. It's An Opinion Board.

You want to shoot in the head and burn wounded people down to thier bones, I don't. It doesn't take much expertise to argue those two points.

Jay

[DS1]

117. swing and a miss

[jayfish]

125. How So?

You said you would throw a WP grenade into the building after the deed had been done, for good measure. More like a two-run double.

Jay

[Forkboy]

209. Sounded like a hit to me

[tedzbear]

281. Didn't you hear? They are ALL insurgents in Fallujah.

There were NO civilians there! None. Nada. Zilch. And anyone who reports otherwise will be arrested and their cameras confiscated.

[marylanddem]

36. The video says it all. Have you seen it?

"What little we know," from the video is this: we can see with our own eyes a wounded man on the floor, curled up, obviously in agony, who is shot to death by a marine yelling "He's faking he's dead, he's faking he's dead!"

[Hey Zeus]

41. have you seen the complete explanation of the viet cong execution video?

you are not on the ground. i will listen to the soldiers, both the individual responsible, and his comrades in the area. i for one, do not find our men in uniform to be dishonorable, lying, murderers.

[bowens43]

77. You haven't been paying attention....;.

many of them are exactly that. This marine in particular is one nasty littler man who needs to behind bars.

[bowens43]

75. Did you see the fucking video??????

The guy was WOUNDED,UNARMED, LYING ON THE FUCKING FLOOR.

He was murdered by a marine. Why? According the marine, because he was breathing.

We have all the information we need. We saw it.

[jayfish]

80. It Doesn't Matter Anymore.

All things factual are now open to interpretation in this country. We will probably hear that the video was doctored before to long.

Jay

[bowens43]

82. You're right of course.

No matter how vile the atrocity there are those, even here on DU , who will defend it. Apparently shooting a wounded , unarmed man who is lying on the floor is now the honorable thing to do.

[Hey Zeus]

203. how much of the events leading up to this did you see?

do you require more information to form your opinions?

[RyomaSakamoto]

264. none, they won't let ANYONE in...

that's gotta help form some opinions... maybe even the wrong ones.

:shrug:

[Bragi]

153. A combatant?

Hey Zeus wrote: "knowing what little i know, this combatant was not innocent."

One of the things the killer knew for sure is that the US had refused to allow any men between the ages of 15 and 55 to leave the city (which is itself a war crime).

So this soldier, like all others, knew full well that some of the people holed up in buildings and mosques were not combatants, but just people who were trapped in the killing zone.

- B

[Hey Zeus]

204. are you saying that this person...

did not take up arms against the american soldiers? i have not seen evidence of this, please provide your source, as this would change things greatly.

[jayfish]

222. This May Sound Strange,...

but does the word "Radius" mean anything to you?

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

223. no, but i am intrigued..

[jayfish]

225. It Seems Strange But...

your post reminded me of a poster called Radius. He just kind of disappeared. We had some pretty epic discussions about military matters as well. Our biggest throw-down concerned the accuracy of the C-130a's gunnery vs. GBU's.

Jay

[Hey Zeus]

227. you'll get no such arguments from me.(nt)

[Bragi]

288. Think of the situation

The situation was that the US was going into Falluja to administer collective punishment (a war crime) to a city whose residents oppose the occupation, and which was the base for a few thousand armed militants. It was also where several U.S mercenaries were killed and mutilated last year.

When the assault began, men who wanted to leave the city to avoid the conflict were refused exit (a war crime). Therefore, as the assault took place, the US troops knew there were people there who were not/ did not want to be combatants in that battle. Right?

So this marine troop comes across wounded people in a building. There are a number of obligations they have under the code before killing these people. Given the situation, one of the things they need to do is to ascertain if these were combatants, or just civilians who had been caught in the crossfire. Right?

I saw the tape, and you saw the tape. Did you see anything on the tape that suggests anything other than the soldier just blew the guy away without making any effort to determine if he was one of the non-combatants who were refused exit from the killing zone?

I certainly didn't see any such thing take place on the tape. What I saw was a revenge killing (a war crime), which was consistent with the purpose of the operation, which was to inflict collective punishment on Falluja for its opposition to the occupation (a war crime).

Right? My point is that it may have been unclear if they were or were not combatants, but the tape makes it clear that no effort was made to determine this one way or the other before killing the man (a war crime).

To those who would respond with the usual "fog of war" cant, and who defend shooting a wounded and unarmed man without even determining if he was a combatant, I would only note that this justification for a war crime is second only to "I was just following orders."

[Inland]

34. Shows Fallujah Mission was at least half revenge, bloodletting

Which simply worked against the other goal of stability and building democracy.

Why kill forty or so Marines and hundreds of civilians for the purpose of having two goals that cancel each other out.

Time to leave.

[Squatch]

38. Worst headline EVER

What in the hell is an "Iraq Probe Comrade"?

[Blue_Tires]

42. the truly sad part is

"I would have shot the insurgent too. Two shots to the head," said Sergeant Nicholas Graham, 24, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "You can't trust these people. He should not be investigated. He did nothing wrong."

if we think this guy is bad, then the Blackwater 'contractors' and the other mercs make him look like a U.N. humanitarian...You'd never believe half the shit they're getting away with as we speak

[takumi]

46. "Casualties of War?"

[Rose Siding]

49. Here's some irony...Last month's convoy refusers will face discipline

No rallying 'round these comrades...

WASHINGTON -- Soldiers from an Army Reserve unit in Iraq who refused to take part in a convoy last month, citing security concerns and maintenance problems with their vehicles, are facing disciplinary action and some could be charged criminally, Pentagon and military officials said yesterday.

As many as two dozen soldiers from the 343d Quartermaster Company, an Army Reserve based in Rock Hill, S.C., were part of the investigation that began Oct. 13 when soldiers refused to take part in a cross-country fuel convoy.

The mission was carried out later by others from the 120-soldier unit who took the convoy from Tallil air base near the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah to Taji north of Baghdad.

A Pentagon official, who requested anonymity, said a number of soldiers under investigation are facing an Article 15 -- an administrative action that could lead to a fine, loss of pay or rank -- or letters of reprimand. As many as five could be recommended for criminal charges and the possibility of courts martial, the official said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x994344

[jayfish]

57. Same Concept Too.

Both posed a potential danger to the troops. I guess the correct course of action is murder. How else can one read any of this? :shrug:

Jay

[RuleofLaw]

76. It would be of great help to everybody

if you actually listen to the report.

The facts are that the people were left in the mosque by another group of soldiers for later medical evacuation. But that this group apparently was unaware of this.

If you look at the tape it is obvious that the group is in no danger. They casually enters the mosque and the room with the wounded. If they truly thought they were in danger, I am sure they would have proceeded differently.

Please, watch the tape and listen to the report.

Couple this incident with the BBC photographer who reported civilian being shot as they tried to flee Falluja by swimming across the river, and I think we can fairly say that the implied order to the troops is, to take no prisoners.

And to those who says that the other side is just as bad. Fine but then do me favor. Have the US retreat from the Geneva Convention. Be honest about it. Don't pretend to be all Honorable and on a moral high ground and at the same time say, this is war and no rules applies.

[DoYouEverWonder]

97. There is no justification for killing these men in cold blood

The soldiers were armed and in control of the situation. The Iraqis were obviously mortally wounded. There were no sign of weapons near or on the bodies.

If the soldier wasn't sure of the condition of the POW, then secure the area, hold the prisoners under gunpoint, and search them for weapons. Then call in a medical evacuation team.

Apparently in Bush's Army, mowing down unarmed wounded POW's is just fine.

Because of Bush and Rumsfeld the US Military is out of control. We are an occupying force. It is up to us to maintain control of the country. Since Bush has miserably failed at even providing a semblance of order, we are genociding entire towns instead.

So much for freedom and democracy.

[daleo]

98. Good comment, especially about the Geneva Convention

Too many people want it both ways. They want to laud the professionalism of the military, but when there is an obvious discipline breakdown "these are just kids". The Geneva Conventions are there for a reason, to protect both sides. Excusing violations is in nobody's long term interests.

[jayfish]

119. Were Are On The Same Side Of The Debate Here.

If I didn't make that clear in my post I apologize.

Jay

[Baulkin]

87. Booby traps

Ive heard reports on military blogs of iraqi's boobytrapping bodies..If I was being shot at I might have shot the guy to be safe to =\ War is hell.

[jayfish]

133. Then Just Kill All Of The Wounded Then And Be Done With It.

War is hell right?

Jay

[theHandpuppet]

89. What do you think would be the response...

... if, on American television, there was a video of an invading Iraqi Army delivering a shot to the head of a severely wounded, young Johnny Marine inside a chapel in Cleveland?

Acts such as the one by this young marine, no matter the circumstances or his state of mind, end up endangering the very lives he thinks he's protecting. At the very least this young man should not be serving in a combat zone. I do not believe, however, that prison would solve anything. Who among us can claim innocence in this matter? If he goes to jail so should George Bush, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld and the whole vile lot. You can add to that list all those who voted for Bush, all our Dem Reps and Senators who voted for this insane war, and the 49% of us who could probably stop this madness but won't. There are millions of fingers on that trigger, not just that of this one young marine.

[Democracy Died 2004]

95. Oh man. This really is the end of the world

and we caused it.

[Leilani]

100. Sounds like some of you want a "clean war"

A "clean war" where nobody does dishorable things...

Where it isn't bloody, & dangerous, with people dying all around you..

having to make decisions in an instant, that result in life & death.

Well, there isn't anything such thing as a "clean war."

War is where people do inhuman things, & it's kill or be killed.

So, why don't you all direct your outrage to the people who sent the soldiers there in the first place.

Your Dem ticket, Kerry/Edwards voted to authorize this war. And if you voted for them, & 2 weeks later are howling about these outrages of war, it seems to me, there's plenty of blame to go around.

Or should we have a "nuanced" discussion about it?

[jayfish]

138. No, What I Want...

is for someone who is caught on tape killing a person in cold blood to be prosecuted for it and not have his buddies rally around him and call it a great deed. Oh and what a straw-man your last point is.

Jay

[Leilani]

150. I don't think it's a straw man at all...

The politicians KNEW Bush would go to war, but they gave him a green light.

Now, I'm not an "insider" with access to highly secret classified data, but I knew the Iraq War stunk, & stunk badly.It didn't take a rocket scientist to know it would become a quagmire, that you can't occupy a Middle Eastern Country, & expect the populace to be happy campers.

And insurgency wars are particularly ugly. The other side does not wear uniforms to identify themselves. People who smile at you one minute, are ready to kill you the next. And the only thing that matters is to get through it, & keep your buddies alive. That's why they all stick together, & it's normal & natural, to defend each other.



So no, I don't condemn these troops...I wasn't there, I don't know all the facts.

But I do know ONE thing. The ULTIMATE responsibility lies with the pols who sent them there. The uniformed people were against this war. but the Bush crowd wanted it, & the Senate became enablers.

[jayfish]

155. Your Staw-Man...

is the insinuation that since we voted for Kerry and he, in-turn, voted for the IWR that we have no voice now. Most of us, including you, saw this thing as bad from the start and said as much, loudly.

Jay

[RuleofLaw]

157. It would help if you paid attention

Kerry and Edwards DID NOT VOTE TO AUTHORIZE THE WAR!

"In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out. "

**snip**

"If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs."

**snip**

"Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances."


http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

[Leilani]

183. Don't insult my intelligence!

The election is over, we can stop the "talking points."

[Winter Ranger]

251. You're joking, right?

I mean, nitpicking the difference between voting for giving the president the authorization for use of force, and the actual use of said force? Are you serious?

[minorl]

302. You rock. Here is the real question we should be asking...

You sound like the daughter of a very good friend of mine. Have the same name too.

People don't like to admit the horror at this point is unavoidable. The question we should be asking is what is the desired endstate, and how do we achieve it? Pull out completely or press on (which will require the US forces to be as violent as the enemy)?

I say issue pork rinds to the troops to sprinkle on the remains of any weapon-toting "insurgents". It is a war of ideologies right?

LM

[minorl]

306. Not the same leilani...sorry for the confusion.

[Malva Zebrina]

114. I cannot accept that

by making or accepting excuses from his comrades, marines whose loyalty to each other is sacrosanct, it sets a precedent. That is, that it is OK to murder an unarmed, severely wounded, dying old man, if you are under the stress of combat. I suspect that the videographer, Sikes, better watch his back from now on. More than one has been killed.

[NCN007]

140. Yea

by the insurgents. Cant remember the last time a marine beheaded a prisoner.

Remeber that the insurgents do not wear uniforms, hide behind women and children and in mosques, and devote tremendous amounts of creative energy to new ways to surprise and kill Americans. Pretending to be dead and conceling a weapon has allowed them to kill Marines before. I dont know what was going through the young man's mind when he did this. If he executed this wounded man out of anger knowing he was unarmed, I, along every other member of the armed services, will be his harshest critics, for his actions have brought a bad name to the Corps, the naval service, and the country. But before that happens there needs to be a fair trial under the UCMJ, and we need a better understanding of the situation than we currently have. Sadly, I doubt he will ever recieve a fair trial due to the inflammatory nature of the press coverage.

[jayfish]

148. Are You Kidding?

I'll bet that he walks after a day-long trail. BTW. Is there some kind of moral difference between shooting a person in the head point-blank and cutting their head off? Firearms are relatively new, but be-headings have been going on since the beginning of recored history. Hell I just saw an episode of "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" where one of the Turtles cut a guys head clean-off and it rolled across the floor. What am I missing here. Finally lets all blame the goddamn press. It was the press, after-all, that pulled the trigger, right?

Jay

[NCN007]

268. I'm not blaming the press

Im saying that the inflammatory nature of the coverage will probably result in an unfair trial. It's happened before. Look up Samuel Green Jr. USMC. Even if this Marine was in the wrong, there is a moral distinction. If he were to be tried for murder in a civilian court in the US, the chare would be second degree, a crime of passion. There was no premeditation. Taking and holding hostages, then issuing demands, and finally beheading them takes a much larger degree of time and consideration, and is more morally offensive. In the US it would be charged as first degree murder. The beheading itself isnt worse, its the situation in which it was committed

[Malva Zebrina]

246. We are on their territory and we invaded their territory

and took it from them.

[maxsolomon]

122. NEWS FLASH: war sucks

honor went out in ww1.

since every action in this war IS a war crime, and similar actions have happened in every war since the dawn of civilization, i'm not going to john walker lindh or lyndie england this kid.

context, people. the real criminals are those who set these wheels in motion. and it ain't the cannon fodder.

[DubyaSux]

124. What do you expect?

...when we train kids to kill, send them to a place to do it, have them scared shitless, and not know who the enemy is?

The day before, the guy got shot in the face and another Marine was killed by one of those "poor defensless unarmed" victims who blew up. So, he capped somebody who only a day before was trying to kill our troops? It's not like this unarmed person was unarmed by his own free will.

Bush sent them into the depths of hell for no good reason and we act in disgust when it resembles hell. I find this Marine's action abhorrent, but it's very easy for me to say that in the comfort of my home while not being in any danger or getting shot at.

Everyone is ready to hang this guy up by his wang, but oblivious to the criminals who put him there. I wish the same passion could be found to hang our elected officials - which includes democrats - who voted for this war.

Until we have the nads to hold our leaders accountable, I don't see why we need to hang a scared shitless kid who shouldn't have even been there in the frist place.

We can always do better, but we shouldn't expect perfection. This kid may have screwed up. But anybody that was in a Mosque shooting at our soldiers is probably not completely innocent.

[Strelnikov_]

154. I Agree, I Blame The Leadership For Putting The Trooper In This Situation

first and foremost.

It reminds me of a scene from a Nam documentary in the early 80's. A trooper stated that if you put an M-16 in an 18 y.o. hands, expose him to the killing of friends, enemy's and innocents, 'something is gonna die'.

This incident underscores why war should be the last, not first, option.

[minorl]

303. Hear hear!!

[Roland99]

128. Semper Lie!

[DarbyUSMC]

137. "Rules of War" --- what a farce. It's you or me.

What the heck does anyone not in his shoes know about doing "the right thing"? All of the killing in this latest campaign to regain what? It's an atrocity any way you look at it. They've decided to send our representatives to fight in place of the idiots who are running the show. How lucky they are to be able to shoot people eh? All of those great benefits are worth the hell they are going through over there. Sure, and when they go home with one leg instead of the two issued at birth, they have our thanks --- but look out. Don't make the wrong decision under horrible conditions or you'll probably end up court martialed. It satisfies the congressmen needing something to tell their outraged constituents about the horrible cold blooded killing which was against the "rules." A split second decision, not to be compared with prisoner abuse at that prison. Not to be compared with anything. Would they rather it be one more of our troops going home in a body bag? It sure sounds like it from here. Maybe we need referees or umpires out there calling fouls when a killing is in question. A big game --- that's what it is to the screamers on the sidelines. Let them don the uniform and face hell.

[DS1]

145. Amen, brother.

:mad:

[tedzbear]

283. Then don't complain when they come to YOUR door and...

...cut your head off when you're lying there injured and weaponless.

[minorl]

304. Who they?

[leftchick]

178. It took more than a split second....

A series of television pool images shot by NBC shows a U.S. Marine shooting dead a wounded and unarmed Iraqi in a Falluja mosque November 13, 2004. U.S. Marines rallied round the Marine now under investigation for killing the Iraqi during the offensive in Falluja, saying he was probably under combat stress in unpredictable, hair-trigger circumstances. Photo by Reuters TV/Reuters

~snip~

A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's fucking faking he's dead."

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head," Sites said.

NBC said the Marine, who had reportedly been shot in the face himself the previous day, said immediately after the shooting: "Well, he's dead now."

[Ocean188]

188. Uncut Video Feed

Here is a link to the uncut video of the incident being discussed here.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/Video%202.rm

Point of interest to me was the fact that after the enemy combatant was killed another one was taken hostage without being killed.

Makes me wonder if the first guy wasn't, in fact, trying something fishy. I think the benefit of the doubt is the least we can give to this Marine.

[jayfish]

194. That Is Not Uncut Video.

There is a huge jump-cut after the first guy is killed. Hmmm.. I wonder if it's there because these Marines said some incriminating things they shouldn't have after the Iraqi was executed. That guy was left for dead the day before. He was trying something fishy all-right. :eyes: Why is this video posted on Homeland Security's site?

Jay

[Forkboy]

211. Have you noticed how many new posters these threads bring out?

Coincidence? :)

[jayfish]

215. I Didn't Want To...

say anything for fear of my post being deleted, but yes. Also, whats with people who have 50 posts changing thier screen name. I guess we are a more open board then we used to be.

Jay

[Ocean188]

217. New?

or just don't post that often? I've had the SAME screen name since last November.(Check the profile) How come whenever anyone disagrees with someone on here they automatically don't belong or have some other agenda.

Wonder why I don't post very often??

[Forkboy]

219. yeah yeah

Wonder why I don't post very often??

No,not really.

[leftchick]

229. I believe you mean this fellow...

Yes indeed, I watched it on BBC and this fellow was very conscious and the restraint by this marine was a stark contrast to the immoral killing by the other marine that preceded it.

[jayfish]

232. Yup.

If anyone was even remotely a threat is was the guy on the ground in that picture. He appeared angry and was moving his hands all over the place. At least he had the ability to go for something.

Jay

[TankLV]

192. "Split second decision" my ass.

Look at the damn video.

Slow.
Methodical.
Well thought out.
Premeditated.

The ONLY thing I can agree on this individual, at best, is that he should be INSTANTLY OUT of the service. He is psychotic. A psychopath. He could maybe be considered insane. He should be sent to a mental institution for life. He is a danger to himself and society.

At the worse, he is another in a long line of frat boy jocks who tease, and bully and beat up on the defenseless and innocent, and he could not WAIT to go to "war" to "kill some ragheads".

I bet the truth is closer to the latter.

And I'd get the names of everone of his "friends" and do the same.

This is simply wrong. War does not excuse one from being human. We as a nation used to pride ourselves on the ability to maintain our humantiy even in the face of atrocities.

No more.

And these are our "professionals"?

I am ashamed of these individuals.

[leftchick]

233. Abu Grhaib II ! I Just heard on NPR....

The Arab media is playing this over and over. The uncut version so that Arabs around the world can see this Marine blow this dreadfully wounded man's head off! The US is SO fucked in Iraq. Hell, we are fucked the world over. Bring the troops home!

[moez]

308. Exactly!

So many rational people here knowing exactly what they'd do in that situation.... all full of crap.

The first reaction is to blame our guys from their nice comfy sofas.

[lawladyprof]

144. Why have the prohibition against

shooting the wounded if this doesn't count (because the marine was stressed). The rule was created for combat situations. If you can say, "Well, he might have had the intention of attacking me so I could shoot him. . . ." You can say that about virtually any captured/wounded enemy. It is the same mindset/justification that Shrubco used to get us into this unholy mess. Might have had the intention of developing WMD program capabilities.

[jayfish]

180. Thank-You

I have been trying to make that point for 20-odd posts. Your clarity and brevity is appreciated.

Jay

[Catchawave]

161. Blowing the dust off this speech, given 4-22-71

Decorated veteran John Kerry, testifying before the House Foreign Relations Committee, questions the War in Vietnam, Washington, D.C., April 22, 1971.


Thank you very much, Senator Fulbright, Senator Javits, Senator Symington and Senator Pell.

I would like to say for the record, and also for the men sitting behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of a group of 1,000, which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table, they would be here and have the same kind of testimony. I would simply like to speak in general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday that you would hear me, and, I am afraid, because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago, in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
http://www.pbs.org/greatspeeches/timeline/j_kerry_s.html

....and we lost to the Swifties?

[x-g.o.p.er]

162. If you weren't there or have never been in combat, then it is...

impossible to describe the emotions or circumstances surrounding what happened. You are trained to protect your life and the life of your squad first and foremost. The enemy had been firing on Marines from that position for a couple of days, and after the Marines thought they had cleared out the mosque, it had been re-occupied.

Wait a minute, isn't the use of mosques, hospitals, etc., a violation of LOAC? (laws of armed conflict)? But I digress...

Anyway, they had repeatedly received fire from that mosque and had just re-entered it to do a sweep. It is a known fact that the enemy in Iraq booby traps bodies and buildings much like the Viet Cong did. In the context of the moment, how was the marine supposed to know whether or not the insurgent did or didn't have a weapon hidden somewhere? Suppose the insurgent had a grenade, or a knife on him, knew he was going to die, and wanted to take one or two more with him.

I can't say I blame the guy, and playing armchair quarterback from the comfort of our computer monitor without taking in the whole scenario as opposed to just the tiny video snippet smacks of ignorance.

[jayfish]

167. If They Were So Threatened Then Why Were They In The Building, ...

two feet away from the supposed threat again? Why do all of the defenders of this action think we are dumb? Why do you think that we cannot empathise with what our troops are going through and look disdanefully on acts that are obviously criminal. Can we not process two thought patterns at once?

Jay

[x-g.o.p.er]

241. Because they were eliminating the threat

And sometimes to eliminate that threat they do not have time to disapssionately look at a situation and analyze it, then analyze it some more.

The facts are the insurgents were using the mosque to fight and coordinate attacks, a violation of the laws of armed conflict, and the marines were looking to eliminate that threat.

I in no way think that you are dumb, but I think that automatically categorizing this act as a violation of international law is not as cut and dry as everyone would think it is, and I would disagree that there are two different thought patterns on this if the whole situation were to be taken in, not just a segment of it.

[tedzbear]

285. No, if it had been a real threat they would have stayed outside and...

...called in the air force to bomb the building for them.

[ScreamingWhisper]

175. ABSOLUTELY!

I've never been in the military myself, but I have been fortunate enough to have a few roommate friends back in college who have made it a career, in addition to a coworker who just got back from Iraq.

You summed up exactly the points I was trying to make at another forum. The enemy is the one who has to be dropped, not your guard so as to not offend those who have no experience or training, much less the computer quarterback reviewing the world events with a bag of Cheetos and a coke nearby.

This soldier and his comrades have one job. Stay alive to follow orders. Follow orders to stay alive.

[NCN007]

191. finally

someone's speaking a language i understand. Not sure how many others will.

[TankLV]

197. My partner served in the jungles of Vietnam. My father and uncles all

served in WWII and Korea.

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM CONDONES THIS CRIMINAL, IN FACT CONDEMNS HIM AS DO WE ALL, WHO STILL DON'T PUT UP WITH THIS "SUPPORT THE TROOPS, EVEN THE CRIMINALS" BULLSHIT.

They all agree, to a person, that we can never FOR EVEN AN INSTANT forget our humanity. Otherwise, we become just like those we fight against, with no justification, no morality, no principals.

Yes war is hell.

And this idiot is a thug and criminal, and his excuse making palsm as well as those here makeing excuses for them, too, are no better.

[ScreamingWhisper]

207. Interesting...

You write:
"They all agree, to a person, that we can never FOR EVEN AN INSTANT forget our humanity. Otherwise, we become just like those we fight against, with no justification, no morality, no principals."

and yet the insurgents have made their personal war policy to not only execute by the most heinous fashion of beheading, anyone and everyone possible, including women and men who had dedicated their life to better(ing) the Iraqui people. They draw no line in the sand on the issue of morality against other human beings.

I believe on a vast whole, our military exemplify the very nature of those who DIED for this country over the last couple of hundred years, giving us the RIGHT to have this discussion. They are held to a degree of performance and regulation that most other armies do not understand, much less live by.

If this soldier did wrong, the military will punish. If he did not do wrong, it's still something he has to live with.

[mike_c]

295. wrong-- the building was not "reoccupied"....

They were wounded left for pickup by an earlier squad. That is clearly heard on the video BEFORE the prisoner is murdered and is contained in the AP report. Read the third Geneva Convention. Those Iraqis were "neutralized combatants," i.e. NON-COMBATANT POWs. Murdering them was a war crime.

[Larkspur]

165. If these soldiers were Nazis or Baathists, we'd be calling them war

crimminals.

The US Army of 1945 would have condemned our troops today for supporting a war started under false pretenses.

[Chicago Democrat]

189. Only Non-Americans can do War Crimes! That is the first Rule of

WAr Crimes...

The Other Rule: All dead Iraqis are insurgents or better yet "terrorists".

The Other Other Rule: We only count dead "insurgents" or terrorsts, but don't keep track of the total!


The Other Other Other Rule: All Total body counts of dead Iraqis are WILDLY INFLATED! Certainly NOT 100,000! Except we just killed 2,000 in the last 2 days.... (Hmmmm 2000 time 50 days equals 100,000 and weve been there 500 days)

[NCN007]

196. Americans

have committed war crimes, have been tried, and have been convicted for them. Read some history.

There have been civilian casualties in Iraq. No one is denying this.

Yea, why dont we ask the already overworked solders and marines to go out and do some accurate body counts so people have random, useless figures to throw around. That worked real well in Vietnam.

Death tolls usually increase dramatically when you mount a large offensive into an enemy stronghold.

[Chicago Democrat]

248. Yeah whatever.... welcome to DU, whoever you are

:puke:

[Carolab]

166. Nothing wrong????????

It's MURDER, you asshole. It was caught on TAPE and in the presence of WITNESSES.

Just like that wounded Iraqi citizen someone "mercy killed" in the street last week.

These are future ex-vets in DENIAL about what they really did.

[Forkboy]

213. Dont take the troll's bait

LOTS of "newbies" show up in these threads to tell us how bad war is and all :)

[Clarkie1]

275. I find it offensive that you call this "murder" without knowing the facts

[Chicago Democrat]

186. "You can't trust these people" Then why don't we leave????

I mean what the HELL HAVE WE BECOME???????

[TankLV]

198. "What have we become" indeed.

Aparently no better than those we rail and fight against.

[majortrepakUSMC]

200. Bump to northzax, Response to Reply #50, 64

The only reason the Marine Corps exists is to win wars. Marines are not peacekeepers or policemen. Marines are trained to be aggressive and violent, to kill the enemy that is. The motto semper fi means "always faithful" in the context of always completing the mission at the expense of everything and as i have said the mission is to kill. i know the actions that have accrued may anger some and scary others but this is war not a game and certainly not a court room. If marines can't count on their platoon mates to stand up for their actions to the media how the hell are you going to trust own another when the shit hits the fan. Marines are killing machines by design and it makes me proud every day to see how well my brother perform their job, not everyone could do it but you can count on the few and the proud to walk the line in the sand and keep every safe.

Kill, Kill, Kill them all!!!
-boot camp saying

[Forkboy]

214. I feel all warm and fuzzy now

[EOTE]

220. Nice cut and paste...

I can understand though. It must be really really difficult pontificating on the justification of killing innocents. Where do you draw the line? Do you not realize how abhorrent and disgusting this action is?

[ElectroPrincess]

226. My husband, a retired Marine would disagree with you ...

Yes, the Marines are trained to KILL. However, what you fail to mention is that they have moral values. The Marines are always faithful to their Country and Corps. As such, they are always cognoscente of that responsibility. Good Marines do NOT disgrace their country with gratuitous cruelty ... they represent their Country with honor, discipline and exemplary behavior. In the battle zone they KILL the enemy but they do so CLEAN - not like avenging angels that you seem to glorify in your post. Your concept of The Marines is a far cry from those beliefs held by myself and my husband.

[Buck Rabbit]

228. Oh boy, boot camp sayings, this is a favorite:

"The only feeling I have when I kill is the recoil of my rifle"

[Chicago Democrat]

249. Those machines should be kept in their packages and not opened

and let loose on Falluja.

The war was a fraud and immoral because it was based on lies and is illegal for that reason. In an illegal war, every action in pursuit of the war is also illegal. Every death in such a war is murder.

Under the Catholic Dotrine of 'unjust war' the normal exemption for a killing to be murder doesn't exist. Thus every Iraqi death is a mortal sin. Ironically, Iraqis are just defending their homes.

How does that work with Marine "machines"?

[uhhuh]

317. Wow! You make the Marines sound like

a great group:

"The motto semper fi means "always faithful" in the context of always completing the mission at the expense of everything and as i have said the mission is to kill."

"Marines are killing machines by design and it makes me proud every day to see how well my brother perform their job."

I'm sure you are very proud. Why don't we give killing the respect it deserves?


"Kill, kill, kill them all!!"


This is the thought process of a deranged ghoul, but I'm glad it gives you a warm feeling.

On edit: I am not saying that all armed forces personnel think like this, but those that do sound more dangerous to us than to any enemy they might face.

[Hey Zeus]

210. as they should...

if he was indeed an enemy soldier or insurgent, he was fair game in that situation.

if not, the marine should face disciplinary action.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jayfish]

218. Self Delete

Jay

[stanwyck]

216. As the mother of a Marine

21-yrs old, back from Iraq -- scheduled to return in Jan., I'm asking for a little perspective. There is much on this thread I agree with: horrible actions take place when a person is scared and angry. And war is hell. That is why we should only resort to war as the very last option. The very last. And, obviously, that was not the case with our invasion of Iraq.
We should be shocked and disgusted by the execution of this man. We are better than this. We believe in the Geneva Convention and the humane treatment of prisoners. We are not mindless killers who have no personal sense of decency and humanity.
When we have leaders who refer to torture as "frat party joking around" and the carpet bombing of civilians as "mission accomplished", we have descended into the abyss.
I ask, however, that you not damn all the young men and women who have been deployed to the Mideast. It is simplistic and unfair to judge them all according to the actions of one.

[ElectroPrincess]

224. I agree whole-heartedly ...

As a Army Veteran and spouse of a retired Marine, I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, there's always the extreme of any group (even the Democratic Party) that will try to paint a certain segment of the population (The AD Military) as all evil.

I believe these folks to be in the minority and/or some people are not thinking this through and letting off steam. However, it's troubling when *some* of our armed forces do not behave in a professional and humane manner. However, people should refrain from generalizing such deplorable behavior to the entire US Military.

BTW also realize that we have some mean-spirited wingers that try to stir up emotions. They really need to "get a life."

[Bragi]

247. Bait and Switch debate?

I note that some in this thread, in freeper-like fashion, are now dismissing those here who are condemning the murder of an unarmed civilian as "anti-military".

How sad it is that those who decry war crimes are characterized here in this manner. I guess it just shows how thoroughly and deeply militarized the thinking of Americans has become.

[ElectroPrincess]

261. No, my thoughts and sentiments are from the heart ...

I don't know where you came from but I do know that I've spent my entire life with a military ID card. Not one day of my 46 years have I not been a Dependent of Active Duty, An Active Duty Soldier and/or Spouse of a Retired Marine.

If I sound militaristic, so be it. My ancestors fought for the North during the Civil war. Each generation since has honored our family members who went into the military. If it wasn't for my Father's battlefield commission during WWII, I'd probably be back in South Dakota on the farm like many of my cousins today.

I have no guilt and I'm a proud Democrat. The Vietnam Conflict which my brother served in the 101st Airborne was also started on a lie. A true patriot of the USA is a person who sees her "as she is" and not in any distorted pathetic right wing propaganda.

Bait and Switch this ... Airborne!

[Beauchard]

230. We Can't Hang Our Troops Out to Dry

Remember what happened during Vietnam, free fire zone orders were issued, and some obeyed them. That doesn't make the soldier who obeyed innocent, but it DOES mean that the one who gave the order, even if he didn't pull the trigger, is the one ultimately responsible.

We can't allow ourselves to fall into the trap of blaming the troops like we did in Vietnam. It's the chicken hawk civvies who are making this happen.

It's right to condemn this awful, unforgivable incident, but we've got to support these individual soldiers. No soldier should take the stand without his chain of command taking the stand too. No soldier should serve time without someone further up doing time too.

*Sigh* And I still can't believe we're doing this all over again.

-Beauchard

[Buck Rabbit]

243. USMC Corps Values: Honor, Courage, Commitment

Honor: Honor requires each Marine to exemplify the ultimate standard in ethical and moral conduct. Honor is many things; honor requires many things. A U.S. Marine must never lie, never cheat, never steal, but that is not enough. Much more is required. Each Marine must cling to an uncompromising code of personal integrity, accountable for his actions and holding others accountable for theirs. And, above all, honor mandates that a Marine never sully the reputation of his Corps.

[wildwww2]

267. "We" ain`t doing shit. This is Bu$h Inc.`s war crime through and through!

Blaming the troops has already happened. Abu Grahib ring a bell? Bu$h should be at the Hague for war crimes already. This is a tragical farce. Led by men and women with leadership qualities of a serial killer. Condi Rice as Secetary of State? I rest my case. The rest of the world knows what a worthless fuck up Rice is. The Secetary of State has to be respected by the world. Not just by ignorant ass so called Americans.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Nashvilliberal]

278. Damned Right...The Buck Stops With The Commander In Chief n/t

[Skittles]

231. Amen, stanwyck

you say it just right.

[Larkspur]

238. The Nuremberg Trials said that "following orders" was not a valid

defense when war crimes and crimes against humanity are committed. If US soldiers are partaking in those foul acts, then they and those soldiers covering for them are guilty of committing war crimes, just like the Nazis and regular German soldiers did.

[Beauchard]

245. didn't the Trials also say that officers were responsible?

I agree that the soldier is NOT innocent, he DID pull the trigger, but I believe his officers and their superiors are also responsible.

I may be wrong, but didn't the Trials establish that? A head of a camp couldn't say he was innocent because he "just" gave the order?

My point here is not to let the soldiers off, but to make sure that they don't get hung out to dry and made scapegoats by the administration. I think if we allow that to happen it'll be Vietnam all over again, and 30 yrs from now we'll have veterans still bitter about how we treated them.

We should always condemn atrocities wherever they occur, and we should prosecute those responsible, but lets prosecute ALL those responsible.

-Beauchard

[leftchick]

240. I agree completely...

I posted a photo up thread of a Marine who acted the way one would hope. The Marines approached another Iraqi in that Mosque who was very animated once his blanket came off. The Marine handled it professionally and I am proud of his actions.

[RyomaSakamoto]

265. "We believe in the Geneva Convention" - this admin doesn't

and their actions and written policies demonstrate that terrible fact.

though i don't think folks are condemning ALL the troops based on this one mans actions, now... that, unfortunately will change, especially and rapidly abroad as this steady drumbeat of abuse in this illegal crusade is beamed into homes around the world.

we all cry out in pain and fury at the very dark days ahead and at what our beloved country has become in the eyes of the world.

:cry:

i respect your families sacrifice to our ideals and always will.

vet USN BM3 (pilot rescue swimmer)

[sr_pacifica]

279. I agree on this part of your post

That because it is unavoidable that cruel actions take place because of the nature of war, we must go to war only as a last resort.

And I believe we need to have perspective on the conditions the troops are thrust into.

What I am unwilling to say is that members of the military can waive their moral responsibilities. They are adults although young. Each of them has a responsibility to think about their actions and their consequences. I don't expect them to lay down their arms in the middle of battle, but, I do expect us and them to seriously consider the meaning of war, sacrifice, patriotism, culture, etc. to come to a deeper understanding of what taking up arms against another people means. I don't think we should allow young men and women to believe their actions are easily excused from responsibility because they are only following orders.

Of course those who send them to war have the ultimate responsibility for the death and destruction brought on the Iraqi people, but we seem to all be in agreement there.

[stanwyck]

289. I agree

no occupation should make you forego your basic humanity and respect for other people. Soldiers should understand that their status as humans should include compassion and responsibility. War and killing the enemy should always be the very last resort. Imminent danger needs to actually be imminent danger -- not something the Bushies spout to scare the easily impressionable into subservience.

[laylah]

244. This kind of heinous stuff

makes it REAL hard to "support the troops". Question: Why is it when we do it, it is OK; however, when "they" do it, it is abominable? A rhetorical question, of course. :mad:

Jenn

[jseth3]

252. Good

I would have shot him too!!!!!!!!

[not systems]

259. Why?

[ekhunter]

253. we must continue to support our troops

in this time of war. let us get all the facts before we start judging this soldier.

[Komrade _azul]

258. we support our troops....

when they come home.

[Clarkie1]

272. Support our troops now!

Justice will be done.

[Bridget Burke]

301. "in this time of war"

Your pissant chickenhawk AWOL president avoided threats & let 3,000 people die on his watch. While he sat in a Florida classroom.

Then he invented the phrase "War on Terror" to revive his failing presidency & next invaded Iraq, although there was no link with 9/11. Soon he was strutting around claiming "Mission Accomplished" & "Bring it On"--and still they keep dying. (The soldiers have been propagandized with this fallacious link--they lack the leisure & the opportunity to do the research.)

The way to support our troops is to get them home ASAP. A few need to come home to court martials. Then they'll be judged. But we're allowed to have opinions.

[ekhunter]

307. i agree with you, we need to get our troops home as soon as possible.

the sooner the better.

[slowroll]

269. Question for those supporting the psycho-killer theory-

Why does the Marine yell "He's fucking faking it!" before he shoots the guy?

The Marines obviously thought there might be a threat in the building-that's why they were covering all the Iraqis with their rifles. If the Marine felt that this possible threat was faking being dead, what kind of motive do you think he felt the guy on the ground had for decieving him? If he was just killing him for shits and giggles, isn't yelling "He's fucking faking it!" in an obviously stressed voice kind of an odd thing to say?

And if this was a Marine death squad or some shit, why did they leave the guy on the floor alive?

Those of you who would imply that I'm a troll because of my low post count can fuck off in advance.

[Clarkie1]

271. It is not our place to judge, we don't have all the facts

Those who are passing judgement on this soldier without having all the facts are showing a lack of moral rectitude.

I will not be joining them in prematurely passing judgement on this man. I have no moral right to do so, and neither does anyone else who is not there and does not have all the facts.

He may be guilty of murder, or he may not be. At this time we must have the courage and patience to admit that we do not yet know.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" - Wes Clark

[slowroll]

276. Very true, and I don't mean

to absolve this kid without all the facts being in. But if we're going to rampantly speculate, somebody can rampantly speculate on his side to counter all of this frothy mouthed psycho-killer/mean green atrocity machine bullshit.

[ekhunter]

290. it has been reported that the insurgents would place

grenades and exploding devices under bodies to have them detonate when our soldiers would get near. this soldier probably saved those other soldiers lives.

[jayfish]

291. Well I Guess You Missed The...

fact that there were no such explosives or weapons found. Kind of like we were saving ourselves from Iraq's CBN weapons, that did not exist, when we invaded in the first place. I keep asking this so maybe you can answer it for me; If injured Iraqis are such a threat then why don't we just kill all of them and be done with it? We can leave all of this moralizing at the door.

Jay


SPELLING EDIT

[ekhunter]

294. i didn't miss the fact that any explosives were found in this case.

my point was that the military was seeing this activity previous to this encounter. it's hard for me to criticize this soldiers actions when we don't realize what he has been through in the past eight days leading up to this. put yourself in the mindset of this soldier. I might not agree with the war but i do believe we need to give all our support to our troops while they are at war.

[jayfish]

296. Here We Go Again With The "I Don't...

understand what's going on over there" line. It's elitist and tiresome. I will however say that this guy should not have been back in a combat situation so quickly after being injured. Reminds me of G.S. Patton.

Jay

[NCN007]

298. clearly

he should have been evacuated due to his minor injury, because our military isnt having manpower issues or anything. I dont know this Marine, but most that I have met would not want to be pulled out of the fight and leave their unit behind if they could keep on fighting.

[jayfish]

300. Maybe That's Why...

we see actions like the one we just witnessed here. Also they are using the injury to help justify his actions so it is fair game to ask why he was returned to duty so quickly if it effected him so. I don't think an evaluation period would be out of the question.

Jay

[mike_c]

299. you can clearly hear someone else identify the wounded...

...as "wounded left by the other guys yesterday" for later pick up as POWs. The marine who shot knew they were neutralized POWs who had already been disarmed and judged no further threat-- i.e. gravely wounded and incapacitated-- by another marine squad. That information is repeated after the POW is murdered as well.

[beetle2]

282. CRAZED n DAZED

Shame on this once great nation for allowing a bumbling fool to drive our brave men to the point of insanity. Please don't allow the conserves gain from this. If we beat up on this poor soldier, then they will come on the radio and the television to show the country how the lefties are on the terrorist's side.
We need to unite in the message that B*** is responsible if our soldiers are stressed to the point to where such terrible things can happen.
Whether the soldier is justified or just a murderer is irrelevant. The point of reasoning should be the fault of B*** in this matter.

Thank you to everyone here.

[Bragi]

287. I don't buy it

You write: "Please don't allow gain from this. If we beat up on this poor soldier, then they will come on the radio and the television to show the country how the lefties are on the terrorist's side."

Conservatives tend to be war-crimes friendly. So are we supposed to shut up about atricities like this just because it gets their hatred for us all riled up?

If we acted on your concern, wouldn't it be better to drop our opposition to the war altogether in the hopes that they won't have any reason to attack us?

If we did this, though, how would anyone know that there is a choice between them and us?

[beetle2]

315. It is not their hatred

that harms us. It is not our opposition to the war. Many of them are also opposed to the war.

They are not riled up because we are screaming about this incident, they are angry because what they hear is us screaming for is this soldiers head.

war is hell and should be used only to defend against direct attack. These incidents and others like it (including the enemies despicable acts) should be used as examples why not to go to war, not as cheap shots against soldiers.

Let them attack us for opposing the war, people can respect that even if they disagree, but most people will flare up if you attack our soldiers.

[Swamp Rat]

286. What would Jesus do?

[RedCloud]

305. Free Speech TV showed it!

they are not afraid!

The marine said that the victim was pretending to be dead. So he shot him right next to the other wounded.

I don't want that fascist coming back to the USA! There are enough of him. People like that marine cause unarmed US citizens to be kidnapped and beheaded. What's next? Using their heads for bowling balls?

That marine betrayed the constitution he swore to defend. i don't support murder.

As FSTV aptly stated this violates the Geneva convention and he could be tried for murder.

[NCN007]

309. Yes

He should be tried. He shot an unarmed man. It needs to be determined if he had enough reason to suspect that this man was still a threat, either had a trap under him or still had a weapon under the blanket, and whether this threat was sufficient to shoot him without getting close enough or spending the time to do a search.

Marines like that man kill the people who cut the heads off journalists.

Bowling balls? WTF?

He is not a facist, he is a Marine. Marines are very talented killers who believe in this country and are willing to sacrific themselves for the greater good. They are not facists.

If you cant stand to be in the same country as him or his buddys, go find another government and army to protect your freedoms.

[w4rma]

311. Are you pro-shooting unarmed wounded civilians, NCN007?

I maintain that the problem is the leadership which condones actions like this (and actually pushes marines do commit actions like this to survive) while condemning these actions when they are made public.

The war will *definitely* NOT be won if these actions are allowed to continue. And noone will believe that these actions will stop if, at the very very least, the folks who do this in public aren't punished. These are actions, and Iraqis see them happen even when they aren't televised since they are the ones these actions are done to, which have made ALL Iraqis likely enemies of ANY US soldier.

[NCN007]

314. Not going to answer the header

I agree that these actions are seriously hurting the war effort. That doesnt mean that the young man's actions were wrong in the situation. He should not become a scapegoat just so the world can feel like justice is served at his expense. Unless he was wrong. I'm not exonerating nor condemning him until I hear the whole story.

[The_Casual_Observer]

313. sacrific

These marines are fighting an unjust war. They will eventually be driven from that land, as have all other foreign invaders of the past.