Pentagon Settles Suit Over Boy Scout Support

[davidinalameda]

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/11/111604militaryScouts.htm

The Pentagon has agreed to warn military bases worldwide not to directly sponsor Boy Scout troops, partially resolving claims that the government has engaged in religious discrimination by supporting a group that requires leaders to be heterosexual and believe in God.

The settlement is part of a series of legal challenges in recent years over how closely the government should be aligned with the Boy Scouts of America, a venerable organization that boasts a membership of more than 3.2 million members.

Civil liberties advocates have set their sights on the organization's policies because the group bans openly gay scout leaders and compels members to swear an oath of duty to God.

[htuttle]

1. From the headline, I thought they were sending the Boy Scouts to Iraq

[deutsey]

16. Give them time...I wouldn't rule that option out

:evilfrown:

[Squatch]

2. Wow...this sucks.

I was a Boy Scout growing up in Germany near an Army base. Our sponsor was an army unit. It's going to suck for a lot of kids overseas who will never experience scouting.

[Rose Siding]

4. Bigotry and state sponsered religion sucks

[Maat]

5. All they have to do to end this is to end their discriminatory pol.

I have no sympathy for them. Is teaching children tolerance more important than their enjoyment of camping/comraderie. I say, "Heck yes!"

I'm going to teach my child that this is like the cat offering the mouse a nice piece of cheese. That cheese is going to taste so great and go down so smoothly. But there's great danger there - your brain (and the rest of you) might get eaten.

Scouting seems fun. The mentoring seems great. The comraderie seems unbeatable. But you learn intolerance, and those thinking patterns become embedded in your brain. I tell her now, "I want better for you."

[Squatch]

7. I am a product of the BSA (Eagle Scout...1989)

I didn't join Scouts to learn about sexuality and religous tolerance (although that was a topic for a merit badge, if I recall). I joined to go camping, hiking, etc.

I will say that despite this "discriminatory" environment, I think I'm fairly open to all lifestyles, religions, etc. Oh, well...a lot of kids are going to suffer not having the BSA because of this.

[Squatch]

8. I guess what I'm saying is...

that I sort of agree with you. This should be a non-issue (sexuality and religion), but it is, unfortunately.

[davidinalameda]

10. the Boy Scouts leadership made it an issue

none of these issues are at play with the Girl Scouts or any of the other youth groups--only the Boy Scouts

[Squatch]

12. I know. Check out the sponsorship of these troops/packs...

They'll never change their tolerance, IMO.

http://www.tidewaterbsa.com/units.html

[Anakin Skywalker]

27. Huh? What are You Saying?

You mean...you mean...we can have lesbians in the Girl Scouts? DOes the Religious Right know about this?

[DrWeird]

30. I was a scout too.

If they're going to be bigots, fuck 'em.

[Cronus Protagonist]

31. I agree. In some countries you can't be a scout unless you're Catholic

Here, you have to be either Catholic or Protestant. No buddhists allowed. I say they have a perfect legal right to discriminate, being a church organization, and we have a perfect right to enforce the law.

They can easily do without our money.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

[Squatch]

32. Then explain this...

http://hometown.aol.com/alislam4/

[Cronus Protagonist]

34. Naw, I won't do that, but it's harder to explain this...

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=islamic+scouts&x=0&y=0

Which shows that I was wrong about the Christian requirement here in the states, but correct in that it is a religious organization. Where I was brought up (Scotland), we couldn't join the Scouts because you HAD to be Catholic to do so.

Perhaps if I had the Internet then, I might have been able to locate a non-religous scouting group... no wait, there aren't any.

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=atheist+scouts&x=0&y=0

The point of this thread was about federal funding of secterian activities, and I was wrong about Scouts not allowing Buddhists into their flock, but one wonders what the Buddhists do about the invocation of God in their rituals and the oaths they have to take.... perhaps they do what atheists do in Islamic societies - go along with the flock and lie, deceive, pretend; because to do otherwise means scapegoating, expulsion and perhaps physical injury.

[AllegroRondo]

3. Maybe this will make the Boy Scouts reconsider their position

I was 'requested to leave' the boy scouts when I was 15 and came out as an atheist. It would be nice to see them change the policy, but I doubt it will happen.

[murielm99]

6. The scouts are hurting themselves.

My son is an Eagle Scout. He enjoyed scouting immensely. It saddens him, and us, that scouting is discriminatory.

[mac56]

9. If enough good people in Scouting take a principled stand about this -

BSA will be forced to change. If BSA doesn't change, and all the good people leave, what continues to exist as BSA won't be worth saving.

[Squatch]

11. Fat chance about that...take a look at the local council's

troop list and tell me if any of these will be openly accepting of sexual and/or religious differences:

http://www.tidewaterbsa.com/units.html

[mac56]

13. So then, what's the solution?

Quit Scouting, or cave in? The first option will get the most attention if enough people do it.

[Squatch]

14. And, like I said...fat chance.

The vast majority of scout units are supported by fundamentalist religious institutions. They will not change their positions.

The change is going to have to come from BSA leadership, which, in my humble assessment, has as much chance of happening as, well, you know the rest.

[zbdent]

15. Paul Harvey, in his infinite RW wisdom, said that it was a suit filed

because the Boy Scouts believed in God.

Not exactly. It was because the Boy Scouts required their leaders to believe in God.

Soooo, you could possibly have a child molester (freed on a technicality) as a scout leader as long as he professes faith in God, and yet a thoroughly moral atheist with a clean slate cannot be a scout leader.

[Squatch]

17. Not entirely true..

The adult scouter application requires an applicant to disclose any charges of child abuse or neglect, regardless of conviction.

http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf

[Kolesar]

18. I'm ready to throw my Eagle Scout medal over the wall

Who's with me?

[murielm99]

19. Don't do that.

There was a group of Eagle Scouts who protested in Chicago. They held a vigil, I think, to protest the religious and sexual discrimination of the scouts.

My son attended it. I don't know the name of the group, but I can find out.

My son is 23. He is a straight white male. I think he works with a group of scouts right now, as an assistant. They need people like him, and you, to stay with the group, and to change it from within.
Kinda like the Democratic party, maybe?

[Kolesar]

25. You're sweet

I was just busting on John Kerry & his medals. I guess no one got or liked my joke. Thank you for the positive and encouraging comments.

I used to participate in an Explorer Scout group that was sponsored by the local Air Force Reserve Group. It looks like that is finished.

[Anakin Skywalker]

28. I'm with Ya!

But I don't have any Scout Medals. :( Can I flung cowpies just for the heck of it?

[arwalden]

20. Fuck The Boy Scouts!!!

[PassingFair]

21. Here's what I wrote to the Regional Scout Office almost 2 years ago today.

...after they gave the wonderful Darrell Lambert the boot for being a freethinker:

To Whom It May Concern:

I think that your recent decision to expel Darrell Lambert from scouting was morally wrong and shameful. Luckily, I am the mother of 2 girls (one in Girl Scouts) and am not in the position of having to explain to a son just why he would not be welcome in the Boy Scouts.
Boy Scouts take a vow to be "morally straight". What's so morally straight about excluding a boy for his religious beliefs?
At a time when religious attitudes are causing death and destruction all around the globe, you have the temerity to cut loose a young man who espouses personal responsibility? A youth who acts on the belief that virtue is its own reward, and not on the belief that he will be handsomely rewarded by paradise in an after-world? Your organization should not receive a single dollar of public money.
With your "deist" policy of "inclusion", perhaps a name change is in order; how about "SUPERNATURAL SCOUTS"?
You should be aware that 14 percent of this country ascribes to no religion. In fact, the non-religious comprise the third largest religious group in the USA.
In a world where people are motivated to follow the dictates of "revealed" religion; born of barbarous times of genocidal desert warfare, thinking people everywhere are saying "Enough".
Three cheers for Mr. Lambert, who has shown us that peaceful, rational, sane, thinking boys had better look elsewhere for fellowship.

Sincerely
My Name Goes Here
Mother and Humanist

[markdd]

22. BSA will probably never change

Check out the Tidewater Council link in some of the above messages. In the US, the largest sponsor of BSA troops is the Mormon Church, followed closely by the VFW. Even the Methodist church has a lay position in their local churches for the Boy Scout liaison.

Think any of these groups are going to let BSA change it's positions?

[Sydnie]

29. That list is where the scouts meet, not necessarily the religion of each

member. Scouts have historically met at churches since they have space that they will "donate" to the group. There is no monetary demand placed on the church by way of sponsorship that I am aware of.

I have had children in both BSA and GS and have been actively involved in both in the past. I remember having a discussion with the district rep about the religion question myself, since I don't claim any religious affiliation myself. His answer to me was, and I quote -- "If a boy wants to tell you that he worships that chair over there, then that is his religion and we should not question it." Of course, this IS in Massachusetts after all.

My son became disillusioned by scouts at the average age that many boys do. He dropped out when it wasn't "cool" to be in scouts anymore, after sticking with it much longer than most of his peers. I had been a cub scout den leader as well as having presided over all the award ceremonies for the pack for years. I became disillusioned when they threw the boy from RI out because he was openly gay. I quit when that council from RI wrestled control of our council from us because they had "money" in their treasury and we were broke. I left completely when the head of our council "sold" the rights to our camp and it's surrounding area to the state for hunters to use for hunting, even when the camp was in use by the boys! They became more interested in the money, once the United Way pulled their funds for NOT discriminating and they just plain went broke. It became ALL about the money and that was NOT what I was volunteering for.

We need to remember what the original purpose for scouting was to see where we are today -- to teach boys the skills of a soldier.

[seemunkee]

23. What about Buddhist Scouts?

They don't believe in God but they have a religious medal for Buddhists, Hindus, and Zoroastrians(sp?)

I enjoyed scouting very much and was in from when I was 11-19. I became a Den leader for my son but we both decided later to quit over their religious and anti-gay policies

[SquireJons]

24. Ollie North is a paid National Spokesman for the BSA

Has been for at least 5 years. Nuff said. My son is almost 8 and I have no interest in him joining scouting. There are plenty of non-judgemental, less jingoistic activities for him to do.

[saigon68]

33. You Mean as in "CONVICTED FELON OLLIE NORTH" ?

THAT CONVICTED FELON ?

[mainer]

26. Why do the Girl Scouts of America never have these problems?

Maybe because girls understand that scouting is about friendships and skills and the outdoors, not about being scared wussies about those big bad gay people?

[blue northern]

35. yeah and girls don't fart either. n/t

[Pushed To The Left]

36. Don't expect government funds

if you practice discrimination. The ACLU scores another victory over the right wing!

www.aclu.org

[suigeneris]

37. I read the NJ decision once and...

I think it was narrowly decided on whether New Jersey's law defined the Boy Scouts as a public accomodation, or something like that, therefore subject to its anti-discrimination statute.

I don't agree with the result of the decision, discrimination, but sometimes a result is the product of some narrow legal angle, not the larger principle that is actually at stake.

In any case, I think it was Stevens who wrote a good dissent, worth reading. He particularly takes apart any claim that the Scouts teach boys that there is something wrong with homosexuality.

It's on the SCOTUS website for 2001, I think. I'm too lazy to look it up. Google is your friend.

[zbdent]

38. Time to start forwarding the Scout roster mailing lists

to the recruitment offices . . .