BBC: US fails to knock out rebels

[Barrett808]

US fails to knock out rebels
By Jonathan Marcus
BBC Diplomatic correspondent

The attacks by Sunni insurgents in Mosul, Baquba and elsewhere in Iraq suggest that the insurgency is likely to continue despite the victory of US and Iraqi Government forces in Falluja.

Lightly-armed insurgent forces are like grains of sand.

As combat power is deployed against them they tend to drift away, either going to ground or seeking another battlefield on which to fight.

This is exactly what has happened in Falluja.

While US troops are largely in control of the town they are still meeting sporadic pockets of quite fierce resistance.

Elsewhere it is clear that some insurgents left Falluja before the US-led assault and have embarked upon a co-ordinated series of attacks in Baquba, Suweira and Mosul.


(more)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4015909.stm

[amber dog democrat]

1. You mean " freedom fighters'

Wait until something akin to the old Viet Minh gets organized. They are already learning how to fight us. The opposition lacks a coherent identity and leadership - NOW. That is going to change before too long when the right leaders emerge.
Then we'll have the civil war going and something similar to the war in Vietnam will happen.

this is just the beginning. I just hope it does not last 10 years.

[Javaman]

19. I agree, this is Viet Nam at about 1963-65

[amber dog democrat]

28. Napalm, White Phospherus, air stirkes...door to door city fighting.

its ALLOT like Vietnam. will there be a Tet offensive ?
This is a very scarey situation and we are being lulled into a sense of false security by the lapdog press.

Hey we also have inducted people refusing to go. That sounds very familiar.
Its also a racial and religious war. Yup I would even equate the Iraqi security forces as something akin to the ARVN , only they are not as well trained, equipped and led - and there are fewer of them. This is very scarey.

[rodeodance]

2. Brit headlines are more truthful than the US media!!!!

Good for them!!!!

[maddezmom]

3. how long before the UK pulls it's troops??

[aquart]

4. Surprise!

[Nicholas_J]

5. Correct

It is becomoing obvious that the insurgents are far from being terrorists. but are Iraqi nationalists opposed to a used controlled puppet state in Iraq.

We have pretty much loist the war in Iraq already. Iraqis who publically voice support for the U.S. are doing no more than they did when Sadam was in power. They know who has the guns, so theyt praise the U.S.in the same way they praised Saddam. It would be virtually im;ossible for the insurgents to survive and thrive all over Iraq without the tacit suppport of a large percentage of the population.

The plan. Fallujah was never a "CENTER" for the insurgents. They are simply going to run U.S. trooops all over Iraq, forcing the U.S. to destroy as many cities as possible and kill as many innocent citizens as possible as "collateral damage" to where support from the populace for any U.S. sponsored government vanishes. We have already seen one Iraqi leader replaced by the U.S. government since the reins of power were suipposedly turned over to the interim government. Much like one Vietnamese government after another was deposed and repoaced by candidates suitable to the U.S. Every time a city is destroyed it is goingto cost the U.S. a lot in dollars and create a good deal of martyrdom amomg the civilian populace. Anyone who loses some family member to a U.S. bomb is prime recruiting material for the insurgency.

[amber dog democrat]

6. I don't see how we can fight and kill our way out of this

and fight for " hearts and minds " at the same time.
Your Vietnam analogy is apt. Just wait until something akin to the old Viet Minh gets underway- followed by a civil war against the corrupt US led puppet government.

I'd give it a year before a coherrent opposing leadership arises to lead the opposition.
Meanwhile They can run and all we can do is Hide.

We lost this war and are too stupid to realize it.

[Nicholas_J]

7. Something similar to the old Viet Minh more than likely already

exists. The Iraqi people are doing very little to assit the coalition troops to get their hands on insurgents. Non one is turning anyone in for the rather large awards being offered. The Insurgents are killing new recruits to the U.S. trained Iraqi forces at will. The early reports on the 40 odd people who were stoppe ner the Iranian border and executed revealed that there were 70 people on the buses that were stopped, buit only 44 or so were executed. The original number was reported only once, and then only the number executed reported.. This mens that those executed were travelling with their own executioners, and onlty a small group of insirgents were used to set up the false checkpoint. Those insurgents within the new Iraqi forces are learining the methods of training, and also learning who is being trained. Some are used to cary out anti-American operations and then go back to the insuurgency, others are left behind to provide inside information to the insurgents.

[amber dog democrat]

10. Dien Bienphu

here we come. Mr Peabody will set the way back machine for May 1954.
The place, Vietnam.

[independentpiney]

17. General Giaps comment on Iraq

In contrast, this week's celebrations in Vietnam of the 50th anniversary of the battle of Dien Bien Phu focused on a man who not only lived under a European empire, but also destroyed it. In 1954, General Vo Nguyen Giap (pronounced "zap") commanded the Viet Minh guerrilla army that annihilated a 13,000-strong French garrison and ended the French effort to hold on to their colonies in Indochina. The French had counted on air superiority and better hardware. Giap beat them with tactics they had believed impossible: His men spent months hauling artillery on foot up the mountains ringing the base, and digging tunnels right up to the French positions.

General Giap is still razor-sharp at 92. At a press conference with foreign journalists last week, he refused to answer military questions about Iraq, saying he didn't know enough to answer. He recast the question in more general terms -- the terms of empire. "Any forces wishing to impose their will on other nations will certainly face failure," he said. "All nations fighting for their own independence will certainly succeed."

Old-fashioned language from an old man. But the idea of empire -- which, after this week's events in Iraq, is looking increasingly unattractive -- is not exactly new, either.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/05/09/dien_bien_phu_in_the_age_of_iraq/

[Nicholas_J]

24. Certainly Giap was a military genius

Who is of course unrecognized as such in the West. But the simple terms he has made his statement in are simply correct. No matter how superior the military force a nation of many million will inevitably defeat that superior force by something as simply as not co-operating with nation that is trying to invade them.


Which seems to be so obviously happening in Iraq. While you hear the U.S. media discussing that the general population are irritated by the continual fighting, the general population are not doing anything to assist the U.S. overcome the insurgents. The inhabitants of Fallujan most certainly knew who the insurgents were and where they were, but were not very forthcoming in co-operating with U.S. forces in letting them know the whereabouts of the insurgents. Even the civilians remaining in Fallujah were not giving the insurgents away, even if to get a little peace and humanitarian aid.

It may take longer because we have turned war into a video game for the troops that we have sent into Iraq, but without active co-operation of the population, the U.S. will not be able to win the peace, or even sustain a friendly government.

Hussein lost the war very quickly because when it came down to it, the people of Iraq did not co-operate with him in repelling the U.S. invasion. But this does not mean that the Iraqi's want the U.S. anymore than they wanted Saddam. IT will take longer, but the invasion will simply grind down to an inevitable halt as the Iraqi people allow the insurgents places to regroup and hide, without letting on to the invading trops where they are.

[Barrett808]

33. Interesting take -- do you have a link for the numbers of recruits? n/t

[PATRICK]

8. Unfortunately

They can still argue to themselves that the Iraqi divisions can be isolated, Sunni especially, and the rabbit can pulled out of the hat. The inevitability of your larger picture is something the military can't even be ordered to contemplate by this administration.

[amber dog democrat]

9. Ive got a bad feeling about this war

If our military leadership drinks its own kool aide we'll be no better off than the French colonial forces in Indo China. All they have to to is organize and pick the time and place to start really hitting us.

God knows we have created or are creating an opposing force that hates us.
They are learning how to fight us and getting better at it.

[Whoa_Nelly]

11. The headline is incomplete. It should read...

US fails to knock out rebels, but manages to successfully maim and kill jundreds of innocent Iraqi citizens

:mad:

[DrWeird]

12. So how long until our glorious retreat?

This is turning out like the last time we liberated Fallujah.

[grumpy old fart]

13. Given the lap dog media

and the pathetic apathy of red America, we will be there until we lose so many troops that everyone notices that they personally know someone the Chimp Cabal has killed.

[amber dog democrat]

14. Kinda like what life in the US was like in

1971 ?

But with all that oil there, how can we leave and declare peace with honor?

Think of the Hummers and SUVs .

[Javaman]

21. Give another 4 years, even the reds will have had enough...

[amber dog democrat]

26. Damn, what about all that oil ?

I thought this was the Chimp's leave no oilwell behind program.

There is a thousand thirsty hummers for every American killed in that mess.

[leftchick]

16. not very soon I am afraid...

I listened to NPR for the first time in two weeks today. The embed with the Marines is acting like it is nothing but a "mop-up" operation from here on in. The media and AmeriKa are fucking clueless.

[amber dog democrat]

25. Well you know, back in the days of strategic hamlets and

communist suppression programs in 1963, the war in Vietnam was always just about to turn the corner if we just could get in a few more advisors and more weaponst fo rthe ARVN. As the press was putting it, we were always mopping up - all the way to Ia Drang and the Tet Offensive.

NPR is not going to tell you much of anything. The don't know anything useful anyway.

[leftchick]

30. I was 10 years old in 1968....

and I remember that all too well. Too bad dumbya was too busy snorting coke to have a clue. Yet again, I suppose things are really going as planned for them. :(

[amber dog democrat]

32. I think about that Creedence Clearwater Song,

You better run through the Jungle.... these are very scarey times.

I enlisted in the Navy at 17 in 1969. All of this feels very familiar.

We are there but for how long? I don't think they really understand what they have set in motion - much less how to end it. I don't think they plan to end it however

Oil has to be part of this - the resources are running out all around the planet and this empire is ungovernable with out it. I was 12 years old in 1964 and I remember watching the Tonkoln Gulf Resolution being passed on live television.

Also maybe you remember body counts on the evening news in '68. I do.
Instead of seeing this as a cold war battlefield, we are diverted from a war on terror, ( ever wonder what it is about our policies that made us targets in the first place? )
to an imperial invasion for control of strategic resources. I honestly beleive that.

[KansDem]

18. I figure when we begin hearing the "Peace with Honor" mantra...

...that the war's end is only a few years away.

[Javaman]

20. How long till Fallusha is a rebel post again? I give it 6 months.

[lawladyprof]

22. Wrong Question--How long

'til one or several of them decides to give one of our cities the Falluja treatment.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

37. Bingo

I hate to say this, but we're setting up that exact scenario, aren't we?

[Briar]

15. What do they mean "victory"

A vastly superior force demolished a city and slaughtered hundreds if not thousands of people. They made sure that what they did was not reported and they will continue to cover up evidence of their crime. That isn't victory except as spun by the military propaganda mills and the politicians they support.

[cliss]

23. It's amazing that only a mere 38 years ago, we

were involved in the VietNam war. It's called Guerrilla Warfare. The stronger the enemy, the more effective becomes the iinsurgency by breaking itself down into individual units.

Big vs. Big = OK. Big vs. one = not good for Big. Because Big is only geared toward fighting against its own size, hence our inability to fight against individual, lightly armed guerrillas which dissolve into the general population. Look, there he is. Look again, and he's gone.

Amazing that they haven't figured this out. Hubris is its own worst enemy. This is why we can't win this war.

[RyomaSakamoto]

27. these guys are going to use nukes though this time and muzzle the media...

the only lessons this group learned from vietnam i'm afraid...

[amber dog democrat]

29. I don't know. That does not seem like a feasible option.

it would damage oil fields and pipelines. Well maybe neutron bombs.

[RyomaSakamoto]

31. they already put them on the table

if we can't get them no-one will... besides it's a target rich environment to these thugs and they'll get the contract o rebuild and license to do whatever they want in the ensuing crisis.

catch22

[amber dog democrat]

34. We would not live this down for 1000 years if we used nukes in Iraq.

There would be no reason to ever defend or believe in the United States if it were to resort to thermonuclear weapons. The entire chain of command would be war criminals as bad as if not worse than anything the Third Reich or Japan did.

Can you just visualize the response from the Moslem nations of the world if ever we did that ? I would side with them.

[RyomaSakamoto]

35. in war nothing is predictable

right now i don't think it necessarily be iraq but certainly that region is in their sights along with N.korea, not to menition the big-boyz in europe and asia...

as things continue to spiral out of their control is when the world will be in the most danger.

[amber dog democrat]

36. You might enjoy reading Oryx and Crake by Margaret Attwood.

Something entirely different and very plausible takes us out.
I do agree we are still living on borrowed time.

[RyomaSakamoto]

38. thanks for the tip

:hi:

[amber dog democrat]

39. Honestly , let me know what you make of it.

Check it out from your library.
It kept me up for a while afterwards.

[RyomaSakamoto]

40. will do

but i must admit i've been trying to avoid these kinds of books the past couple years because its too scary for me these days.

[amber dog democrat]

41. This one will scare you. ( or in my opinion it ought to )

I saw Margaret do a reading on this one and she saic that nothing in her books has not happened at some place or time in American History.

The same with the Handmaid's Tale.