Red Cross =800 Civilians Feared Dead in Fallujah :

[rodeodance]

800 Civilians Feared Dead in Fallujah :

At least 800 civilians have been killed during the U.S. military siege of Fallujah, a Red Cross official estimates.

http://207.44.245.159/article7298.htm

[tk2kewl]

1. Ah... "insurgents"

[mike_c]

2. pay no attention to the collateral damage....

They're only poor brown muslims. </sarcasm>

[teach1st]

3. Oh...

"Speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of U.S. military reprisal..."

???

[Briar]

14. Reprisal

is what the US does.

[MnFats]

4. was this the Sand Creek Massacre of the 21st Century?

with Bush as Shivington?
eliminating once and for all the possibility that there can be peace?



(do a google if you don't know.)

[kslib]

9. Interesting analogy.

I'm not sure I would completely agree, because while the Native Americans believed they were being approached peacefully, the Iraqi people are under no such illusions. (well, I don't think so anyway, anything's possible). I don't know a whole lot about the Sand Creek Massacre, so feel free to elaborate! :7

On edit: I do however feel Fallujah was an absolutely horrible tragedy. (thought I should clear that up!)

[MnFats]

15. you're right. there are many differences...

....but reading about the civilian deaths in Fallujah, an image of an overwhelming force, well-armed but trained and led by hothead officers, bearing down on combatants as well as noncombatants, killing both indiscriminately.


The Sand Creek Massacre occurred almost exactly 140 years ago in S.E. Colorado. the head chief, Black Kettle, had been assured by the U.S. military that his northern Cheyenne and their Arapahoe cousins could live in peace forever, and gave him a U.S. flag to fly over his camp. they assured him that he would never be attacked as long as the flag flew over his camp.
Col. John Chivington (may have misspelled it) led a force of something like 800 irregulars -- some Army troops and volunteers -- in attacking the village. He ordered them to kill as many as they could, even children. Those who came to the site later found that pregnant women had their fetuses ripped from their bodies.

Three federal investigations later condemned the massacre, but I believe Chivington never paid any price for it....

[kslib]

17. That's terrible.

Thanks for the info though! Are you a history buff?

[MnFats]

22. yeah, sorta....can't claim to be an expert on anything, though

i had shitty history teachers in high school and found it boring, boring. mostly in college, too, though i had a couple of good classes.
now i try to 'catch up' because there are a lot of good books out there.
and that bit about 'those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it" may be a cliche, but it's sure true.

[othermeans]

38. I don't know but we all know how it ended for the American Indian.

[Darranar]

5. So much for "no civilians killed". n/t

[kslib]

6. I heard a story about this

on my local Kansas AM station, and they said that the army was saying the numbers were purposely being inflated by the Red Crescent because they were not being allowed in. What a crock. :grr:

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[ingasm]

7. God Bless...

Bush and his moral values. Crusading against the women's right to choose but killing 100,000 - 200,000 in Iraq. But hey, at least he's keeping them "queer folk" from hurting our children!

[Andrushka]

11. Hi ingasm!

Welcome to DU, from one relatively newbie to another! :hi:

[Liberal Veteran]

8. But...but...but...there were no civilians left in Fallujah!

How can this be?

[luaneryder]

46. Yeah, Allawi said so

[lightbulb]

10. liberated

Free to rot in the street and be eaten by dogs. Sweet, sweet freedom. God bless us.

[Supersedeas]

53. Bush freedom and Bush truth go hand and hand -- they know now.

[Tiberius]

13. Not even close

No way. The number is going to be WAY over 800, but we'll never know the exact count.

[Zorra]

18. 800 civilians were probably killed in the bombing before US troops even

entered the city.

It was genocide.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. No, genocide is what the Turks did to the Kurds.

Please study Turkish policy towards its Kurdish minority in recent years. Please note how many hundreds of villages, how many tens of thousands of people have been eliminated.

Please note the Turks are still your ally.

And please, don't throw this word around so loosely.

see ya :hi:

[Art_from_Ark]

52. Genocide:

"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"--

Merriam-Webster

[prolesunited]

31. I'm thinking we've killed more innocent

Iraqis by now than Saddam ever did. Does that mean we win now?

[Forkboy]

33. Blowing your cover so soon

Hey,did you see how happy I was when Reagan died.That was a great day for America and the world.Wish you had been here then...woooo,what fun we had!

[Zorra]

40. Heh....

got another one.;)

[RyomaSakamoto]

20. they've been bombing the whole summer

if not longer and it only got worse in the weeks leading up to the assault :cry:

[byronm]

16. No escape...

There are stories and even photos floating around showing families swimming across the river being mowed down by snipers and choppers. All men were considered compatants and arrested or killed.

Sad Sad day for man kind

[RyomaSakamoto]

24. people will strain on a gnat yet swallow an elephant whole without comment

i often think about that when i read posts of folks rabidly defending the apparent execution of an unarmed wounded pow while we cut off all aid, food and water and bomb their hospitals :crazy:

[icymist]

21. I heard on LINK TV that the number needs another zero.

I am simply disgusted with the news footage of an American solider shooting to death an un-armed, wounded and maybe dying, POW! This is worse than Vietnam for the American public never got such fast news coverage and commercial package than what we're getting now.

[Forkboy]

25. In fairness to the guys dropping 2000 pound bombs on civilians

Ah crap,even I can't pretend to be like some of the shitheels on DU today :)

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

29. Enjoy your stay

[The Stranger]

32. What were they? 155 mm Howitzer shells? Air to surface missles?

Abrams blasts? How much do those "precision-guided munitions" weigh? Less than 2000 lbs.?

[Nothing Without Hope]

26. The RC is being very conservative with this estimate....

... as other excerpts from this article make clear:

The official estimated that at least 50,000 residents remain trapped within the city. They were too poor to leave, lacked friends or family outside the city and therefore had nowhere to go, or they simply had not had enough time to escape before the siege began, he said. 

(snip)

The Red Cross official said they had received several reports from refugees that the military had dropped cluster bombs in Fallujah, and used a phosphorous weapon that caused severe burns. 

The U.S. military claims to have killed 1,200 ”insurgents” in Fallujah. Abdel Khader Janabi, a resistance leader from the city has said that only about 100 among them were fighters. 

”Both of them are lying,” the Red Cross official said. ”While they agree on the 1,200 number, they are both lying about the number of dead fighters.” He added that ”our estimate of 800 civilians is likely to be too low.” 

[JoFerret]

28. Too dreadful to contemplate

Appalling. I fear we will pay dearly for this wanton destruction of lives.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[aneerkoinos]

34. Please don't feed the troll. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

36. Alert is the way to go.

Sort of like calling the exterminator.

However, I've lived on the Gulf Coast long enough to sometimes enjoy stomping on cockroaches myself. It gives the eternal fight a personal touch.

However, cockroaches just keep coming.

[arwalden]

35. They Aren't Civilians... They Are TERRORISTS

It's patriotic to kill babies... they grow up to be TERRORISTS. God Bless the USA. These colors don't run! God Bless Our Great Leader! I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free! Support Our Troops. Remember 9-11! If they had been saved then God would have protected them. Kill Kill Kill!!!! Nuke the sons of bitches! Get this shit over with. God Bless Our Troops! United We Stand! Rah-rah! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

And why don't we get to see the pictures? Where are the photos? Let us see what a good job our troops are doing over there for our Great Leader.

[Tesibria]

37. read on...

Editor and Publisher's Greg Mitchell notes that:

Amnesty International declared on Monday that the rules of war protecting civilians and wounded combatants have been broken by both sides in the assault. It also warned of a looming humanitarian crisis "with acute shortages of food, water, medicine and with no electricity. There are also many wounded people who could not receive medical care becuse of the fighting." A spokeswoman for Amnesty told AP: "According to what we're hearing and some testimony from residents who have fled, it looks like the toll of civilian casualties is high."

An Associated Press dispatch on Monday quoted Marine Sgt. Todd Bowers, who is helping determine reconstruction needs: "It's incredible, the destruction. It's overwhelming. My first question is: Where to begin?"

BBC reporter Paul Wood, embedded with the Marines, also described bodies lying in the streets, which were "starting to become a serious health risk." He had talked to a Marine officer who said that "cats and dogs are now starting to eat these bodies. It is a quite horrific picture which I'm drawing but that is what awaits the people of Fallujah when they come back." The reporter added that he could not imagine "how people are going to feel when they see their city and they see the holes in the mosques and they see the destruction that has been wrought by this battle."

Anne Barnard of The Boston Globe noted that the military says it took every possible step to minimize civilian casualties, but "the methods used -- air strikes and artillery and tank fire from a distance -- make it difficult to know whether civilians are caught under fire." U.S. forces had urged Fallujans trapped in the city to stay in their homes, but "troops using thermal sights often assumed that if there was a 'hot spot' inside a house — indicating body heat — the people inside were insurgents."

• Officials with the International Red Cross decried the continuing ban on sending aid and ambulances into the combat zones. Fallujah General Hospital was well supplied but held no patients, as none of the injured had been able to reach it.

Equally disturbing: While we are starting to get a sense of the human effects of the "means," we still have no idea of how, when, or whether, this will ever "end."

[Bragi]

39. Anything good out of this?

I'm trying to think if anything good might come out of this travesty. The only things I can think of are:

1. The phrase "war crimes" is, at long last, finally becoming part of the Iraq storyline

2. With Falluja, the US is now so hated globally that its non-military ability to influence events is just about zero.

Thin gruel, but these are somewhat positive outcomes. While I am horrified and sickened by what Iraqis are being put through, the Falluja massacre will certainly contribute to further isolating the US from the international community, which is actually a good thing.

[othermeans]

41. I think it will be much better once the hard liners take over State & CIA

With their uncanny ability to ignore and distort what everybody tells them eventually this will be "Festung Amerikaner"

[Bragi]

43. That's good too

The quicker the US reflects the xenophobic values and stupidity of the majority who voted to keep Bush in power, the quicker it will be that (most of) the rest of the world will conclude that the U.S is a pariah state.

There's another board here where people are talking about things that might happen, and several have predicted that the UN will leave the US, and that UN sanctions will eventually be applied against the US for its wars of aggression, war crimes, etc.

All in all, I think these would be a positive developments. As someone living outside the US, I don't see America recovering from eight years of Bush for at least a generation, and maybe never.

Before the election, it was reasonable for people outside the U.S to think that Americans would never give such an unfit leader a second term. Most people thought Bush would be defeated.

Now that the American majority has spoken, the rest of the world has to start thinking seriously about getting our act together collectively to protect ourselves from the US, and to run our economies and our lives outside U.S influence.

[othermeans]

44. I checked with the UK members here and they don't think Blair

will be unseated and the Australians have already elected what's his face so I don't really see any dramatic changes in the world order unless the people really do stand up to their own governments and tell them enough is enough.

[Bragi]

47. Yeah Blair will be re-elected, but...

This doesn't mean the UK won't ultimately be forced to decide that they are actually Europeans, and Blair forced to abandon his Transatlantic American wet dreams, which few Brits share.

As the US becomes increasingly isolated, as its businesses increasingly find it harder and more expensive to operate in the global markets, and in countries that truly revile them, and as its products are increasingly boycotted abroad, I think the decision for Brits to cast their lot with Europe won't be hard to make.

I'd say the timeline here is probably 5-10 years, so Blair won't be around for much of it anyway.

I don't think the next U.S election will change this scenario, since it now (sadly) appears unlikely that the insular U.S majority, with 4 more years of Fox news, would elect a President next time who isn't every bit as jingoistic and militarist as Bush.

Which is to say that I think historians will record that the war in Iraq marks the zenith of American power and influence. For the U.S empire, it's all downhill from here.

For sure it's going to be real messy, and it won't be a picnic for amyone, but now that the U.S has gone rogue, the world community has to do what needs to be done.

[Malva Zebrina]

42. It is reports like this that keep me awake for hours at night.

I cannot imagine anything like it. it simply is not in my experience and so I try to apply the things in my life that I considered horrific at the time. But nothing even can come near this wanton slaughter--this barbaric holocaust involving the elimination of these poor people --killed and blown into pieces.

And people in denial try to justify this? People actually believe these people deserve this? People think the soldiers dropping the bombs were threatened by these people and so needed to drop those bombs so as to protect the ground troops that would soon be employed on the streets of Falujah? And still, I would bet that 500 of those soldiers are now out of commission no longer useful as soldiers. After all that--the resistance managed to eliminate a significant amount of our soldiers so they cannot fight again. The passion to protect and defend one's homeland is strong indeed.

They were soldiers trained to fight--the 800 civilians dead were innocents.

What do we gain from a win when we have indulged in slaughter and carnage?

[KingChicken]

45. Another link to site with the story

http://electroniciraq.net/news/1716.shtml

Get this one into the news the military is trying desperately to block it, and play down the numbers.

[llmart]

48. OK you guys.....

I'm at work and I'm trying not to get sick at these descriptions. I am so disgusted that my country has done this. It's not the country that I thought it was. How do the people in this administration sleep at night? Drugs maybe? How do the people who voted for him live with themselves?

[bobbieinok]

49. they don't hear about or see any of this info......it's a movie or a game

to them ..... not real.

And when something gets thru,

....it's filtered thru nationalism (some sort of revenge for 9-11 or preemption to prevent another 9-11; 'the only good Indian is a dead Indian')

....or some sort of 'christian' belief about battles that need to be fought before the End Times and the role Iraq must play. (I've asked for an explanation several times but still don't understand what they're talking about.)

[sadinred]

50. shock!

Am I just niave or is it really, REALLy bad that the UN has to intervene here. Basically the UN is forced to defend AGAINST the US.
WTF is going on? How can this not be in the papers and in the news? It should be headline!

[WildClarySage]

51. What troubles me most is

the thought that of those who resided in Fallujah, the vulnerable were the ones left in the city when we attacked. Think about the evacuation of New Orleans when Ivan approached. Those who could get out quickly did, the ones who were left were the poor, the sick, the elderly, those whose livlihoods had to be protected, etc. Except that in New Orleans, the very very vulnerable were taken to shelters. There were no shelters in Fallujah.

[riverwalker]

54. 1200 "insurgents" and 800 civilians

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=10218

"The Red Cross official said they had received several reports from refugees that the military had dropped cluster bombs in Fallujah, and used a phosphorous weapon that caused severe burns."

"The situation within Fallujah is grim, he said. If help does not reach people soon, "the children who are trapped will most likely die."
He said the Health Ministry in the U.S.-backed interim Iraqi government had stopped supplying hospitals and clinics in Fallujah two months before the current siege.
"The hospitals do not even have aspirin," he said. "This shows, in my opinion, that they've had a plan to attack for a long time and were trying to weaken the people."