Davis Slammed on Calif. Driver's Licenses

[Bushknew]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&ncid=536&e=2&u=/ap/20030906/ap_on_el_gu/davis_recall

<<I think we have to be honest about our dependency on people to do jobs Americans will not," Davis said. "You couldn't get food at a reasonable cost without farmworkers who toil in the hot sun. I believe we need to honor their hard work, which subsidizes our economy.">>

As a Latino, IÕm glad he finally signed this bill.

Latinos are not terrorists, no matter how loudly the Repugnants scream it on talk radio.

Being able to buy guns at gun fairs is dangerous not immigrants driving cars.

So, the Repugnant argument for safety is just a cover to hid their racism.

I will vote no on the recall and yes to Bustamante and will try to convince as many of my more politically passive friends to do the same.

[flamingyouth]

1. I was just in LA so I heard a lot about this issue

And I was out to dinner with a big group of people, one of whom loudly proclaimed that "we shouldn't be giving anything to the lazy Mexicans." I had kept my mouth shut up to that point (an amazing thing for me) but I seriously let him have it, and people turned around and were staring at us.

I was just completely horrified and offended by his comments; in turn, he called me a "loudmouthed female Michael Moore wannabe," to which I said, "That's a compliment. I'd sure rather be him than YOU." (Needless to say, I had never met this person before - and hopefully I'll never have to see him again.) He is a Gov. Gangbang supporter, BTW.

Kudos to Davis for signing this bill.

[Bushknew]

3. Those "lazy Mexicans"

Those "lazy Mexicans" are working for below minimum wage so that bastard can
stuff his pie hole with strawberries and cream, MF.

Some people are so ignorant but itÕs always reassuring to hear from people like you.

[Frances]

4. I was having Thanksgiving dinner with relatives

in Alabama back in the late 60s. Our dinner was cooked by, served by, and would be cleared by an African American woman. Someone commented on how lazy African Americans are.

That's when I knew I had to leave Alabama. Now that same kind of thinking is dominating our federal government.

I will vote no on recall and yes on Bustamante. I've asked my California relatives to consider doing the same.

[Zhade]

21. What a prick!

I live in Santa Monica, and one of my good friends at work is straight outta Mexico City.

I can't stand racists. They always piss on the people who do the work that's way too "low" to do themselves. Assholes.

[Imajika]

2. No, no, no

"Being able to buy guns at gun fairs is dangerous not immigrants driving cars."

The issue is not about "immigrants driving cars", it is about giving drivers licenses to ILLEGAL immigrants.

I have no problem with immigrants driving cars, nor does anyone else. The issue here is whether ILLEGAL immigrants should be allowed to have legal US drivers licenses.

I am inclined not to support this. Davis also did not support this not so long ago. But in order to curry favor with Hispanic voters he signed this legislation and everyone knows it.

Don't try to make it sound like those who oppose this are trying to prevent "immigrants from driving cars". That is not the issue.

I think less of Davis for reversing his position here out of pure politics. I am still against the recall, so if I could vote in California I'd vote no on the recall and yes to Bustamante. But I completely disagree with Davis on this issue.

Imajika

[not systems]

5. common sense amnesty

In California there is 1-2 million illegal immigrants.
The didn't arive yesterday or last month or even last
year. They live here on a permanent basis. If there
was an amnesty for legalization like there was going to
be before 9/11 these people would have become citizens.

Now because of 9/11 and anti-immigrant feelings
nationally I have to drive with more unlicensed
driver who have not passed a driving test. This
bill will fix this problem while California waits
for the national hysteria to end and a common sense
amnesty to happen.

[Imajika]

15. What?

"Now because of 9/11 and anti-immigrant feelings nationally"

I've no anti-immigrant feelings. This nation was built on immigration and I am all for it.

But I do support LEGAL immigration. I understand that this is a complex issue, but I just do not see why we would grant legal drivers license's to those who are in this country illegally.

As a nation we should adopt a more sensible immigration policy that accounts for the fact that huge numbers of immigrants want in and are willing to work very hard once their here. However, so long as a person is here ILLEGALLY - I do not think they should be given State Drivers License's since in my view it has the effect of bestowing some sense of legality to a situation which is patently not legal.

Though I don't think America's current immigration policy is sound, I do not want to implement legislation which has the effect of encouraging illegal entry into the country and undermining border control.

Davis reversed his position purely out of politics. Everyone and their brother knows this. I think less of Davis for his actions here.

Imajika

[AP]

16. This kind of attitude sickens me. I can't believe an American citizen

would prefer that his neighbor suffer because of some vague principle of citizens rights, even if adhering that idiotic principle meant that they had drive on roads with people who aren't insured, haven't taken the drivers test, or chose not to drive and had to be poorer and more miserble for it.

Suck it up imajika. Let people have dignified lives and full participation in the american economy. You'll be richer for it because those imigrants are contributing real value to the economy, and, furthermore, it reduces the chance that you'll get in a car accident and maybe even killed by some uninsured person who wasn't aware of some stupid little rule which he or she would have known if they had taken a drivers test.

Oh, and imajika, in CA you get fingerprinted when you get a drivers license. Maybe that will make you feel better.

[conservdem]

41. I generally agree with you.

[Piperay]

52. I also agree

with you even though I know that this is an unpopular opinion on this board.

[Bushknew]

6. Imajika

<<The issue here is whether ILLEGAL immigrants should be allowed to have legal US drivers licenses. I am inclined not to support this.>>

Imajika, ILLEGAL immigrants pick the fruits and vegetables you eat every night.

Are you inclined to stop buying groceries?

[tkmorris]

7. Hmmm

While I would certainly agree that Davis' signing of this bill at this time is mere political pandering I am not sure quite how I feel about the bill itself.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell me your objections to it? Please.

[Bushknew]

8. From a purely selfish standpoint

From a purely selfish standpoint, you should be in favor of ILLEGAL immigrants
to obtain legal US drivers licenses because it maintains your lifestyle.

Those groceries you bought were picked from illegal slave immigrant labor right here in the good old US of A.

[mitchtv]

9. as Davis says: the roads will be safer with everyone

driving by and knowing the same rules of the road- they are driving anyway!

[flamingyouth]

14. Whatever

You can argue it all you want.

Still, we are talking about people who are a very important part of our workforce; people who live in this country, and despite what the Reich wing has to say, pay plenty in taxes (think of the sales and gas taxes alone, not to mention property taxes, et al).

I've never had a problem with people getting a driver's license. I'm just fortunate that I was born in a country where (so far) I want to stay and where I can make my home.

[sandnsea]

19. It's just a tracking devise anyway

This is a better way of tracking a population you already know exists. We've been fighting illegal immigration for decades now, it's not going away without some signficant economic changes in Mexico. I can't see how this would hurt anything, it can only help. I think we should just let them in, have them get quick and easy working documents, and be done with it. Start with Mexico as a trial program or something. What we're doing now is a huge waste of manpower and money. They come here to work and they do work.

Besides, they wouldn't come if people didn't hire them. So if we're serious about cracking down on the illegal immigrant problem, crack down on the employers. Like we do on the drug war, without the supplier, there'd be no users. Same with illegal immigration.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

57. They will drive ANYWAY make them pass the TEST

and learn the RULES of the ROAD so they don't kill your family in an accident !
--ps insurance is required when registering a car--
wouldn't you like the motorist who slams your car
(or whose car you slam)
to be insured?

[Demobrat]

10. I don't mind if they have driver's licenses

as long as it means they have to have insurance too. With great privilege comes great responsibilities.

[userdave2061]

11. As long as ALL illegals get the sam treatment I see no problem

In fact, they should all get full benefits and health coverage too. Fair is fair.

[Gman]

12. Loud mouths I don't know are my favorite targets to tee off on

and put them in their place.

What a light weight! If his absolute best was calling you a Michael Moore wannabe, he was clearly out of his league.

[NNN0LHI]

13. I would have had fun with him too n/t

[hussar]

17. Sorry but I disagree with illegal immigration

If immigrants were made to apply for legal immigration then they would be legally entitled to minimum wage and would not be subject to slave labour, get rich quick exploitation.
I am an immigrant from the UK and can't find a decent job BTW.

[Bushknew]

18. If businesses were forced not to hire illegal immigrants

There would be no illegal immigrants in this country.

But immigrant slave labor is the lifeblood of American business here at home and abroad.

[femmecahors]

22. Amen . . .

The lovely irony about this recall election is that the Republicans might just wake up to the nightmare they have been dreading . . . a white minority , governed by a man of Mexican heritage.

Hey Orange County, you better start buying land in Idaho!

Oh what tangled webs we weave . . .

[TheYellowDog]

20. I think they should be

able to have drivers licenses. Bushknew, I'm interested in your opinion on the proposal to allow illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition in California. I do have a problem with that because they would be paying a lower rate than people in neighboring states like Nevada and Oregon. Those American citizens have to pay the much higher out-of-state rate. While I support amnesty for illegals, I'm kind of angered that someone would press the subsidized tuition issue.

[Bushknew]

24. IÕm not informed enough to give an opinion either way.

Sorry

[zekeson]

37. Wow, thank you

That is one of the most intelligent answers I have ever seen on DU.
:toast:

[DisgustipatedinCA]

44. They ARE residents of the state

Unlike citizens of Nevada or Oregon, illegals living in California ARE residents of the state and therefore should qualify for in-state tuition.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. A better solution

Is to stop the illegal immigration problem by creating guest worker visas. Those workers would be tracked legally and they would have rights under the law and would be taxed as well.

Then, anyone arriving illegally would be treated as a threat and not someone yearning to be free.

[not systems]

25. they are taxed

In the debate Cruz Bustamante said that they payed
more that $1000 dollars in taxes over the cost of
services recieved.

None of the other candidates challenged this figure.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Not all of them and not consistently

Many illegal immigrants are underground workers as well. Like I said, we need to change the way we are handling this.

[cthrumatrix]

26. from what I hear....isn't it the "voting capability" the repugs don't like

I heard sanity talking about this and they see it as a ploy to get more people to vote for democrats.

Forget the argument or civility of the issue...the repugs don't want people to vote against them...that's the other issue.

Hence...we have electronic voting.

[Forkboy]

27. While I agree with the decision

it is pure pandering on Davis' part to me.

Still,as I say,it's the right to do in my mind.

[Gin]

29. The operative word is "ILLEGAL". immigrants....Can immigrants going

through the process legally get a license easily?

Davis is pandering. The recall is wrong but so is he. If I lived in CA. I would vote no for the recall.

[no one in particular]

30. Why are we rewarding criminals?

Legal immigration is a good thing. A good friend of mine from Pakistan owns a gas station. He told me about the hell he went through to be a citizen and here we reward people for breaking the law?

I also get damn tired of the "who will pick the fruit, mow the lawn, etc.", as if those things never got done before. A friend of mine, who is white, goes to a temp agency every morning at 5:30 and waits around for a minimum wage day-labor job. Some days he doesn't even get sent out, but he's always there. I even go sometimes in the winter when my work slows down. Quit lying when you say Americans won't do the work.

Also, we need to hit the businesses who hire them, and hit em hard. Massive fines and/or confiscation of their businesses.

Welcome legal immigrants with open arms. Stop the criminals.

[not systems]

31. Americans won't do the work

I am not lying.

There are 1-2 million illegal worker in California
on a basicly permanent basis.

70% of farm workers.

30% of construction.

The only criminals now being rewarded are the american
people buying vegetables at a price that can't support
a real wage.

The situation with Mexican worker is different than
in many other places they have been here doing this
farm work for a very long time.

That you are demonising them and condemning them
as criminals when they do work you would never do
for a wage you would never take to put food on your
table is small hearted and fails to recognise the
one who gains form their labor is you.

The fact that one white person work day-labor is
irrelevant. Is he and a million more like him ready
to live in the fields migrating from farm to farm
through the year. Being exposed to farm chemicals.
No I think not.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[delete_bush]

34. What's wrong with maintaining control over our borders?

While you were working abroad, were you there illegally? Did you use hospital emergency rooms for your health care needs, to be paid for by those who welcomed you with open arms? Did you pay a smuggler $1,500 to pack you into a trailer without food or even water, with the very real risk of being abandoned in the hot sun to die an agonizing death? Were you allowed to vote, because for all practical purposes they will now have the ability to do so.

These issues are much better dealt with legally, with everything above board, such as a guest worker program

[AP]

36. I was legal because most other countries aren't as stupid about the

US about letting in people who are going to help their economies.

And I used the health care systems because those countries knew it was better to have me healthy and working.

We have a screwed up way of thinking about our borders and about what's in the US's best interest.

[delete_bush]

40. The goal should be

for the Mexican economy/legal/justice systems to become such that workers would have no desire to even come to the U.S.

This would be a benefit to Americans as well, because another semester or so of OJT for shrub and I might be the one trying to get smuggled into Mexico for a higher paying job/better quality of life.

It just seems to me that the first step in accomplishing this would be to create an environment where the Mexican people will have to deal with the corrupt system that takes away their ability to have a better quality of life. To realize that they have talented people and an abundance of natural resources, that if properly channeled would enable them to compete with the US or anyone else.

I think the ability to control our borders gives us better leverage to achieve this. Otherwise they have no motivation to change.

[AP]

45. Avoiding the issue--why make lives of our friends and nieghbors harder?

In some respects, Mexico is being forced to liberalize and improve (withness the election of Vincente Fox, beating party in office for over 70 years, and witnes what he's trying to do) because Mexico can no longer afford the brain drain, and become citizens are democratically demanding opportunities at home.

However, regardless of that, how is your life made better by making it harder for your next-door neighbor to be held back and degraded? It doesn't. In fact YOU are better off if your neighbor has taken a drivers test, is insured, and can contribute fully to the economy. The library doesn't ask you whether you're hear legally when you get a library card (thank god). No the DMV isn't going to ask that of people who want drivers licenses. And that's an improvement to. It's a big step forward.

[delete_bush]

50. Several issues in play

so not sure which one I'm "avoiding". It seems to me that you would prefer an open border, allowing any and all to enter the U.S. and take advantage of any and all social and other services available, regardless of the cost to those already here.

If this is the case then please explain how California can absorb the cost of lets say 10 million more residents without serious consequences to what is already a rather fragile infrastructure.

If you're not advocating an open border but are relying on the underground economy to regulate immigration, then for reasons stated earlier regarding coyote's et al then I still opt for government regulation of immigration depending on need, and joint cooperation with Mexico to develop programs to make this a non-issue.

As far as the drivers test is concerned, I still can't remember how many feet I'm supposed to stop before a railroad crossing, the insurance will last for only a month before being cancelled, please address why you believe that non-citizens being allowed to vote in local, state and national elections is a good idea, and we can at least agree on free library cards for all.

If the end result is to eliminate the abuses fostered by the current way of doing business, ensuring that wage and hour laws are being followed, for example, then I don't see how this is making life "harder" for them.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

43. We just did change the law.

Now these workers will get drivers licenses.

Got it?

Why do you think California should play by your rules?

We have a democracy here and we can pass laws regulating
this state.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

48. State law

The state government doesn't have to enforce these
laws you are talking about.

Like a city with a ban on enforcing the patriot act,
or a state that doesn't enforce drug laws against
medical marijuana the state has no obligation to
enforce the law passed by a much more bigoted
national consensus.

If you think it is so wrong why not ask Bush and
Ashcroft to put federal troops at the DMV it would
be like desegregation but in reverse, hater.

[AP]

49. Soon those laws will be fixed too.

[Gin]

33. Forget the "fruit picking " examples....the "manufacturing" jobs still in

this country...are becoming less and less English speaking...and..more and more Spanish speaking..that has to do with companies paying lower wages to these illegals with false documents.

Workers here are being replaced with people who will work for less
(a lot less)....some are legal residents....many have false ID's.

So...NAFTA has come home to rooste right here at home. Forget jobs leaving the US to other countries. Other countries' workers (with their lower standards of living)are coming here and squeezing us out of our jobs.

Sounds harsh...is harsh...and we need to come to grips with the fact that it is happening. We must at least recognize that this is a problem.

[hunter]

51. I think people from out of state are a problem too...

I was born in California. If we got rid of all those alien folks coming in from out of state, who work for less money than native born Californians, things sure as hell would be better for us native born, wouldn't they?

Fijucking Damned Texans! Get the hell out of California! All you damned Southerners too, with yer freakish peanut picking accents. And you pasty faced Midwesterners, and Northeasterners too. Deport them all! Take away their drivers licenses, confiscate their property, put 'em on a bus, and drop 'em off at the Arizonia, Nevada, and Oregon borders.

California is for Californians, Dammit! Mine, mine, mine, it's all mine!

This public service announcement brought to you by Californians for a better California.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

58. no Gin- the real problem is racism and supremist attitudes

"squeeze us out of our jobs"????
What kind of work do you do?
Are you are your friends getting squeezed?
I doubt it

those"spanish speaking" people are no threat to you.

lose the fear...

they mean you no harm and pose no threat to you so there is nothing to fear.
people are afraid of what they don't understand .

[Bushknew]

35. Do you have the courage of your convictions?

Why donÕt you protest then?

Refuse to buy ANY groceries and patronize restaurants until only llegal immigrants work here.

LetÕs see how long you last.

You should be thankful, no better yet ashamed that your lifestyle depends on ILLEGAL slave immigrant labor.

[shanti]

38. yeah right

do you REALLY think that the law will come down on the businesses that hire illegals!? get real! illegals are A FACT OF LIFE in california. this law is making money off of that fact. period.

[KeepItReal]

39. "dependency on people to do jobs Americans will not"

Hey Gov. Davis (yes, he is my Gov. now),

I worked in high school for $3/hour in Louisiana, for well below minimum wage because folks in the LA legislature said that only 2 groups of folks were eligible to be paid less than miminum wage - seasonal farm workers and amusement park workers.

Someone should have told me that real Americans citizens don't work for less than minimum wage, 'cuz I didn't get the memo. All the folks working at the park with me for less-than-minimum-wage were citizens, too.

I *do* have a problem with giving drivers licenses (and thus legal recognition and/or legitimacy?) to folks who are not legal immigrants. I don't care why they (illegals) are here, or what their contribution is. If I break the law, a judge won't give a flip that I go to work every day and pay my taxes.

I think this is naked politics to curry favor, just like the Republican double-standard that lets Cubans who make landfall in south Florida legit, but kicks out Haitians who do the same thing.

[Cronus Protagonist]

53. Great thread for weeding out the racists and DINOs

Thanks for posting it.



Click Here To See Fair & Balanced Buttons, Stickers & Magnets!>

[guajira]

54. You're Right, Racists and DINOS label people who disagree with them!!!

Big business must be thrilled with Gov. Davis right now. One more big opening in our borders means more cheap labor for their sweat shops.

Anyone who thinks it is a good and noble policy to ignore our laws and condone illegals sneaking into the US, letting them work in unsafe and unhealthy work conditions for almost slave wages, so that corporations can make huge profits, meanwhile we the taxpayers pay for their social services - medical, food stamps, education, criminal justice costs, etc.

The border is a joke and might as well be opened up, then we could at least pay for the social services by getting rid of the border patrol!!

This issue will take guts and real integrity to solve, and I don't see any current politicans capable of taking on this problem in an honest way!!

[not systems]

55. social services

In the last debate Bustamante said illegals pay
more than $1000 more in taxes than they receive in
social services.

No one disagreed with his numbers.

I agree with you that a more honest approach would
be better than people "sneaking into the US" but there
are 1-2 million people living here on an ongoing basis
who need to drive to work.

Standing on principle against the reality of real people
living, working and paying taxes is pointless.

It is pragmatic to issue drivers license.

It would be more honest to have an amnesty.

[hunter]

56. This does solve one very real problem...

Local law enforcement officials are not the Border Patrol. Local officials don't want to be in the business of detaining and deporting illegal aliens simply because they are illegal aliens. That takes them away from other more important business.

If we really want to cut down on illegal immigration we need to start cracking down on employers with harsh penalties, stuff like $50,000 fines per employee, and serious jail time. Illegal aliens should also be left alone when such workplaces are raided so that they have no incentive to protect their employers. This is just a rough proposal, don't shoot it down yet. But I don't see that we would ever be willing to do this. Just imagine seeing Joe Multi-Millionaire hauled off to jail for six months and fined $50,000 because his Irish housecleaner was here on a student visa...

The vast majority of llegal aliens come here to work. If jobs are not available The United States is not an attractive place to live. Nobody wants to come here just to live under a bridge and fight with the local homeless people for food out of the dumpsters.

I openly admit that I look at this problem from an entirely religious perspective. An "illegal alien" is no less my neighbor than someone born here in the United States. I don't figure God pays much attention to anyone's immigration status, and I don't see any commandment that says "Thou shalt not cross borders without the proper documents."

Worse, I know in my heart that if I'd been born somelace not so nice as California, that I'd first try to get here any legal way I could, and if I failed at that, I'd be out there walking across the desert at night to get here with all the rest...

Peace