Shooting in Iraq Mosque Angers Muslims

[Barrett808]

Shooting in Iraq Mosque Angers Muslims
By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The fatal shooting of a wounded and apparently unarmed man in a Fallujah mosque by a U.S. Marine angered Sunni Muslims in Iraq on Tuesday and raised questions about the protection of insurgents once they are out of action.

International legal experts said the Marine may have acted in self-defense because of a danger that a wounded combatant might try to blow up a hidden weapon; a key issue was whether the injured man was a prisoner at the time.

The shooting happened Saturday, one day after the Marine, who has not been identified, was wounded in the face and after another man in his unit was killed by the booby-trapped body of an insurgent.

However, the incident could cause major political problems for the government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi and his U.S. backers at a time when Iraqi authorities are seeking to contain a backlash among Sunnis to the invasion of the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah.

American and Iraqi authorities tried to prevent rage from spreading among Sunnis, many of whom watched dramatic footage of the shooting that aired throughout the day on Al-Jazeera television, a Qatar-based satellite station.

"Look at this old man who was slain by them," said Ahmed Khalil, 40, as he watched the video in his Baghdad shop. "Was he a fighter? Was anybody who was killed inside this mosque a fighter? Where are their weapons? I don't know what to say."

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041117/ap_on_re_mi_ea/marine_shooting

[Mr_Spock]

1. This is what happens in a war.

You can't blame the soldiers as these things happen from time to time during a battle. This IS why you should never go to war unless you are facing an imminent threat though. All this is unnecessary.

EDIT: well, you can blame the specific soldier, but the troops in general are just trying to get the mission accomplished without getting killed.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

2. Horrific Tragedy

[randyman]

3. We have to hold them responsible

for the war crimes they commit. Or else we wind up like the Nazi's in WWII. This is a war crime and people should pay. I admit that what we are doing over there is damn rough, but if not the soldiers themselves then their commanding officers should be held responsible.

We need to snap out of this madness people. What is it going to take?
Four more years of this administration and how can we look the world community in the eyes?

If God was here he/she would be really pissed....

[NCN007]

11. no

this could be a war crime. we need to investigate it, try him by a jury of combat infantry marine peers according to the UCMJ, and either sentance and condemn him and his chain of command (in proportion to what they could have done to stop it) or reinstate him to his unit and let him continue to fight. The fact of the matter is we have a graphic picture but no understanding as to what the situation is.

[burrowowl]

28. The Marine was high on adreinlin

and rightly so, life and death situations do that to you and he was just wounded, extra wary ....
I don't blame him, I blame Bu$h and Company.
Maybe the soldier should not 'pay' but Bu$h and Company and those who worship the ground he walks on should pay.
However, if you put yourself in an Iraqi's shoes, they may forgive the soldier but not the U$ and Bu$h, will they include all Americans as being U$?

[CityDem]

31. The Marine did the right thing

First, the insurgents should not be firing on US troops from mosques if they value them so much. If this marine felt threatened based on prior experience of wounded insurgents using explosive devices, he had every right to kill he insurgent. He was protecting himself and his platoon members.

[NickB79]

41. Wonderful logic

There have been reports of women in Fallujah hiding weapons under their burkas and firing on American soldiers there. Do you suggest that it's ok for US troops to start shooting all women in Fallujah too, just to be safe? If not, why? What is the difference, if they've both been threats to US troops in the past?

If the soldiers were so concerned about their safety, why on the video did they casually stroll into the mosque and come within a few feet of the dead and dying Iraqis? If they were so concerned about their lives, they obviously put themselves in great danger by being so laid-back as they entered.

[bushisanidiot]

48. Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out, huh? Nice freeper logic

there, buddy.

[4dsc]

54. You are dead wrong

the Marine should not have fired upon any wounded personal unless his life was in danger.. That was not the case hear..

What if the circumstances were turned around?? Would you feel the same??

[WTFDutch]

57. But how do you know?

The Marine did what he was supposed to do. The only mistake made was with the room entry method. What they did was not a "proper" room entry.

I feel he was justified in believing his life was in danger based on his previous days experiences alone. As far as the circumstanses turned around, these terrorists are beheading and disemboweling innocent people, don't you think that warrents anything?

It is also, I should add, a war crime to hide weapons in the mosques. I'm sorry, but I don't view this as "unarmed prisoners". I saw "potentially armed" terrorists.

Whether you agree with the war or not, whether you agree with how wars are fought or not, what the Marine in question did is consistant with training throughout history.

[4dsc]

58. I heard another marine that was interviewed

and he clearly stated this marine was wrong in both the shooting and procedure.. The marice fucked up and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent under the USMJ!!

[WTFDutch]

59. I'd like to see that,

Do you have a link?

[ekhunter]

52. I agree, if a war crime was committed we do need to hold our troops

responsible. i'm not really sure if a war crime was committed in this case though? time will tell when the facts come in. we also need to hold the insurgents responsible and make sure they are held accountable for their actions of killing innocent civilians and children.

[RyomaSakamoto]

5. same thing imperial japan said during Nanking

Japanese aircraft bombed south Shanghai Station Aug.28,1937.
About 200 people in the waiting room were dead or wounded by the bombing. A crying baby was left alone after the bombing.
"Life" Oct.4,1937

[Mr_Spock]

9. The US fire bombed and killed hundreds and thousands of civilians

in Germany and Japan during WWII - not including the nuclear bombs.

[RyomaSakamoto]

13. yep... all in the name of fighting what we've become

imperial crusaders :puke:

[Mr_Spock]

15. This may be the case - history will tell us.

Let's hope for the best as we all are indirectly involved :argh:

[rodeodance]

23. we need to be talking about the immorality of the administration who

puts our troops into this situation!!

[Dangerman]

27. HE SHOT AN UNARMED MAN FOR GOD SAKE!

Even in war, that soldier should NOT have done it! He's a war criminal, for God's sake!

[VegasWolf]

4. Nooo! Who woulda thunk it?

[byronm]

6. It angers me..

And i'm not even muslim.

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

7. He was in his" CHURCH"(Mosque) wounded needing help

And the marines and the reporter who shot the footage said that he was there the day before...
as they approached the reporter recorded gunshot sounds, as they entered, these wounded Iraqis appeared to be dying of "fresh" wounds.
Execution is STANDARD PROCEDURE???
Yeah , I know,
But "this is War"-
-excellent observation Sherlock !!!!--
No, "This" is execution.
Those marines who justify it in those interviews just make themselves look bad because it only makes it seem like they apparently do this ALOT.
Execution is American?

Yeah, there you go again
bbbbbbb..bbbbb... but "this is war"
I already told you "you done good to know that",-
that's right:
"Murkins in war with Iraqis"-


How would we like seeing a film of American wounded having "two shots applied" to the head?

Do unto others--
Even second graders understand this.
Oh that's right--Our commander in Chief has an IQ not much greater than a 5th grader--

85 IQ is not "leadership" standard

[AnnaBergeson]

24. Mosques and Churches are not analogous

[NickB79]

43. Please elaborate, if you can

Ooops, nope, you can't because you've been tombstoned for your other ignorant remarks. Hahahahahahaha.

[NJ_Lib]

8. I was ready to crucify this soldier until...

... I heard that this man was injured in the face just the day before and more importantly, watched his buddy get killed right next to him from an explosion coming from a dead insurgent's body...

If this is really the case, a closer look at this case should be taken, an investigation should be done and none of us should judge this man until we know all the facts... That's just MHO...

[Mr_Spock]

10. This is why I am cutting some slack here as well.

I have heard the circumstances you describe as well so I have tried to put myself in that dude's head. Not easy though but he had to have been in a violent mood after what happened. They really are mostly young guys and we know who they are from meeting them when they are back home.

[RyomaSakamoto]

14. me too, considering they're 'just follow'n orders'

and since we are committing much worse atrocities, denying aid, indiscriminate killing, cutting off food and water to a whole city, targeting hospitals an aid stations, censoring and targeting media, etc. this reminds me of the saying...

people will strain at a gnat while effortlessly swallow whole elephants.

[leftchick]

18. well said RS...

and very eloquently as well. Thank you.

[Mr_Spock]

19. Exactly - let's not miss the forest for the trees.

Good point. We do seem like we are in the process of swallowing sohe elephants though!

[lapfog_1]

17. So... your reasoning is that he suffered mental and personal

trauma and so he cannot be held accountable?

Sorry, I just don't buy that. If he was pissed off and
shot up a village of unarmed women and children because of
his trauma, would you still be making the same excuses?

The guy he shot was a wounded prisoner of war without a weapon.
When you listen to the dialog (despite the spin offered by
the apologists), you clearly hear someone (reporter) explain
that these guys were left by a marine patrol from the previous
day. Clearly they were not moving. The marine says "This one
is faking it! He's not dead." Now, the Iraqis are wounded,
disarmed, and not moving. So he raises his rifle and shoots him.

That these things happen in war (even by us) is not new. But what
is supposed to make us "better" than others is that we don't
tolerate barbaric behavior, even when faced with an enemy that
embraces it.

[NJ_Lib]

21. I think you absolutely missed my point...

... My point was not related to this soldier's mental health at all... If they thought he was too traumatized by his comrade's death, then they should have pulled him. My point is, his friend's death was caused by a similar situation where they thought the guy was dead but when they got closer, he blew himself up... What do you expect for a young kid? Now he's looking at every insurgent, suspecting this kind of thing. Cut to the scene in the Mosque, all I'm saying is I can see that there may be another side to this story. I just chose to hear all of the detail, if we ever will, before I crucify the guy, that's all... And by the way, the voice of the Marine in the background saying: "This one is faking it! He's not dead!" fits in logically with the way I suspect things went down.

My gut tells me the kid got scared and did what he did. Who knows, I could be wrong... He could be just a cold-blooded murderer... I'll sit this one out until I know more about what happened, if we ever will...

[NJ_Lib]

22. dupe nt

[CHICKEN CAPITOL USA]

20. Well I guess it's ok for them to do it to us too--if their buddy died

And honestly, don't you think that us "American" invaders are responsible for killing alot more of their buddies (also family members are extra good buddies aren't they?)
So they can just "go off" on us too and it should be ok by you, right?

http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

[Norquist Nemesis]

33. Yes, we should be judging the "leadership"

that put him back out into the field so shortly after these two traumatic events.

I don't condone the actions of this soldier (yet) based solely on the video and the followup (shot in face, buddy killed). My first thought when I heard these things was...WTF were they thinking to send this kid back into the field of battle so fast?!

Maybe the soldier said 'I want to go back right away' with a feeling that his injury is somehow letting his unit down. I won't go into how th e military is actually based on Liberalism (lifting up the weak in order to strengthen the unit as a whole; not leaving anyone behind). But you'ld think they (the leadership) would have enough sense to know this guy was in hyper-drive and ready for revenge! :grr:

[jayfish]

50. Could You Provide A Link...

to a reputable source to backup this "watched his buddy get killed right next to him from an explosion coming from a dead insurgent's body" claim? Preferably something 0-72 hours after the event was publicized and attributable to a named source.

Jay

[Malva Zebrina]

12. Naturaly, what else? nt

[not systems]

16. Just another focus group...

who just don't understand the pressure a US marine is
put under when suppressing a nationalist Islamic
insurgency.

Don't they know how hard we got it?

[daleo]

25. Yes, the Iraqis need a good talking to, then they will understand

They need to have some of the people here explain (pick one):

- their unarmed, wounded countryman was a potential danger, and had to be eliminated 'just in case'.

- it might have been a mercy killing anyway.

- it is too difficult to take care of prisoners, and marines, being perfectly trained killing machines, don't have to do things like that.

- war is hell, and these boys are too young to be held accountable.

- Maybe in some distant election Bush will be held accountable.

- it is the Iraqis fault for not leaving their city when told to.

- as Muslims and sand n***'s their lives don't count anyway.

P.S. I recognize that you are being sarcastic, as am I.

[Kablooie]

26. Iraqi girl's blog. She and her family watched the video of the killing.

We sat, horrified, stunned with the horror of the scene that unfolded in front of our eyes. It's the third day of Eid and we were finally able to gather as a family- a cousin, his wife and their two daughters, two aunts, and an elderly uncle. E. and my cousin had been standing in line for two days to get fuel so we could go visit the elderly uncle on the final day of a very desolate Eid. The room was silent at the end of the scene, with only the voice of the news anchor and the sobs of my aunt. My little cousin flinched and dropped her spoon, face frozen with shock, eyes wide with disbelief, glued to the television screen, "Is he dead? Did they kill him?" I swallowed hard, trying to gulp away the lump lodged in my throat and watched as my cousin buried his face in his hands, ashamed to look at his daughter.


http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

38. Enough of you

I was hoping that after your "Churches and Mosques are not analogous" post that you'd leave graciously but since you're determined to stick around to serve us up a big heaping dish of racist crap, I've alerted the mod on you. Have a nice stay.

[ElectroPrincess]

39. Please define "these people"

Whenever I hear that phase "these people" on CSPAN's WJ, I just know that it is to imply that the orator considers THEM less than human.

Oh please, in war atrocities occur on both sides. NO one side is pure innocence. After the age of 10 y.o. I would hope that we can develop a little critical thinking, i.e., good vs. evil comparisons not accurate.

[theHandpuppet]

40. Look no further than this person's other posts

Not only in this thread -- such as "Mosques and Churches are not analogous" -- to the disgusting post at the end of the "NYT: Some Democrats Believe Party Should Get Religion" thread. The mods have been alerted.

[AnnaBergeson]

30. Also, that Blog is a Hoax... Written by an anti-war American.

[madrchsod]

32. do you have proof that she is fake?

i would like to see that the proof-i bet you don`t have any....

[AnnaBergeson]

34. Ad Ignorantium is a Logical Fallacy.

I cannot provide definitive proof that this is a fake blog, but the fake Iraq blog has been a common tactic among war opponents, and if you compare "her" English to that of the blogs of even the best educated Iraqis, there is simply no way that this person is a native Arabic speaker...

[ilovenicepeople]

35. Welcome to DU Mr. Rove

Good luck on winning Time Man of the Year.:hi:

[thebigidea]

37. because after all, "those people" can never be educated.

Apparently they speak by grunting and stomping their feet. That's why its ok to kill 'em.

[NickB79]

42. So you're basically full of shit

You say you have no evidence to support your claim, but it looks like other Iraqi blogs YOU claim are fake, so it must be fake too? Did you ever think maybe it looks like other Iraqi blogs because THEY'RE ALL REAL AND YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S WRONG IN THINKING THEY'RE FAKE??? Also, it's fake because her English is too good to be spoken by an Iraqi or anyone else who is of Arabic descent? Of course that makes sense, since because she's not from the genetically superior white race, she's too stupid to learn proper English, right? From personal experience, I've found that many native Arabic people speak better English than about 50% of this country.

[0007]

55. You gotta be pulling my chain, yes?

[LynnTheDem]

36. Dear freeping rightwingnut; NO that blog is NOT a hoax.

You rightwingnuts sure do love spewing made up bullshit all over the place, dontcha.

Do you confess your sins of lying, bearing false witness, spewing hatred, etc every week? Or have you already realized you have no soul to worry about?

[colonel odis]

44. the u.s. just served up al-qaeda a great recruiting tool.

regardless of how you feel about the morality of him shooting an unarmed, wounded iraqi in the head his place of worship, al-qaeda is going to benefit mightily from it.

what this soldier did was not only criminal, but he made iraq more dangerous for every soldier over there.

thanks a lot, asshole.

[leftchick]

45. Reuters: Arabs Enraged at U.S. Soldier Shooting Wounded Iraqi

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041117/wl_nm/iraq_shooting_reaction_dc&cid=574&ncid=1480

<snip>

Viewers said images, which Arab televisions aired repeatedly of a Marine killing a severely injured Iraqi, fueled growing hatred against America and helped create more "terrorists."


"I am not a jihadist, I am just a normal Muslim but such scenes are pushing me to Jihad," said Dubai-based engineer Abdallah. "We don't expect this from the representative of democracy in the world."


"This is one of the things we saw on TV. God knows how many crimes they have committed which we have not seen," he added."


<snip>

"It's as if they had killed every one of us. Today, it's that poor man, tomorrow, it will be me," said Sherine Mohamed, 27, a financial analyst. "Even if militants didn't respect mosque sanctities, U.S. soldiers should have done so because they claim to help Iraqis."

[Roaming]

46. Where's the muslim outrage over what happened to Hassan?

A wonderful, muslim woman who was brutally murdered?

That said, I'll cut this kid some slack until an investigation is undertaken; we cannot possibly comprehend what he and other soldiers are going through.

[Barrett808]

47. That story's getting quite a lot of coverage, too:

Iraqis Angry, Distraught at Aid Worker's Murder
Wed Nov 17,10:36 AM ET World - Reuters
By Mussab al-Khairalla

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqis reacted with anger and disbelief Wednesday to news that British-Iraqi aid worker Margaret Hassan, who worked in Iraq for decades before being kidnapped a month ago, had been killed by her captors.

Irish-born Hassan, 59, moved to Iraq more than 30 years ago after marrying an Iraqi engineer. She learned Arabic and became a pillar of support in local communities, often helping the needy in the face of opposition during Saddam Hussein's regime.

Those who knew her, worked with her or were helped by her described Hassan as a formidable woman who went about her work with determination. She helped the disabled, the orphaned and those without water or sanitation calmly and efficiently.

One of the hospitals she regularly supported was a spinal cord clinic in Baghdad run by Qayder al-Chalabi, who said her loss was a huge blow to all Iraqis.

The killers "made a very big mistake. This was the wrong person," he told Reuters Wednesday.

(more)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20041117/wl_nm/iraq_hassan_reaction_dc

[jayfish]

51. You Must Think Humans Are Dumb.

When you read a book do you have trouble comprehending it's meaning because you are not living it? How many Muslims in the street proclaiming their sorrow over Mrs. Hassan will it take to swing you in
the other direction?

Jay

[Tight_rope]

49. The US soldiers are making friends in Iraq...not!

[skip fox]

53. Four were killed, not one. The camera only got one, but

the embedded reporter told AP three others were killed as well.

[ooglymoogly]

56. oh gee i'm so mystified

don't they understand we're doing gods work?